Kansas vs Duke Game Thread:
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I agree with @drgnslayr that this team had no script or couldn’t follow the script for dealing with pressure last night. They had one back door cut play they used 2 times to punish Duke for the overplays. Hard to say with so many turnovers if players didn’t know where to be, made bad decisions, or didn’t even have a plan. I do think this reinforces a lot of what Self likes to say about “cutting of the head” and why good defense on a point guard can be so important. Tre Jones cut of the head last night. His pressure up top set the tone for KU’s offense. The only release valve for that pressure were the two back door cuts and then letting Garrett run the point. If Garrett is going to be the second ball handler on this team he has to drive to distribute better. He’s improved with the ability to go left a little more this year, but once he starts driving there’s no doubt he’s going to try to take it all the way himself.
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I’ve been trying to figure this out in my head all day - given the fact that we had 28 turnovers and we can’t change that - would we be happier if we had, say 8 turnovers and lost by two points?
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@nuleafjhawk I don’t think so. We played like crap and barely lost to a pretty good team. We can see the potential. The outcome of the first game of the season really doesn’t mean much.
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Just think last year at this time we thought Grimes was a stud.
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@benshawks08 Good insight. HCBS basically went with his starting 5 last night. Those 5 can be very strong defensively - control the boards and apply pressure - albeit with one glaring vulnerability - to a stretch 4 - as was demonstrated. It’s on the offensive end that those 5 will likely struggle to score, at least against other athletic and disciplined teams. The box score shows that we were 4-9 from behind the arc, although the shot chart shows 11 shots taken. Put aside Dotson’s meaningless end of game banked 3, and we hit just 3 shots from behind the arc. Not sure but I believe they were all in the first half (was 1 of Ochai’s in the second stanza?). But more remarkably, we did not make a single shot beyond those outside the paint all game. We had virtually no outside presence. And, as you note, none of our perimeter guys are particularly good dishing the ball. While they drove the ball to the rim reasonably effectively (although not always finishing strongly), I don’t recall a single instance of driving and dishing for an easy bucket. Our PG had 1 assist for the game! Basically, it’s go downhill and hope for a put back if the shot is missed on the drive. That’s not an offense.
None of Doke, Dave or Silvio are skilled enough or have good enough footwork to deal with quick double teams. But the only way to avoid that happening is to make teams pay by making outside shots - which isn’t going to happen that often if Dotson, Garrett and Ochai are all getting 36-40 minutes a game. The sky isn’t falling - despite 28 turnovers and generally poor decision-making, we had a chance to win an ugly game, which is what HCBS likes to do. But, if we continue to go with 2 bigs and those 3 on the perimeter a substantial majority of the time, there are likely to be a lot of ugly games ahead…
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Why do people think it’s impossible for us to clean up the turnovers? Isn’t that the natural progression of a team as they get more experience playing in a system together with their teammates? I think so.
I’d say all turnovers have some degree of carelessness, which is in part caused by an uncertainty of what to do in a particular situation or what a teammate will do in a particular situation. That uncertainty decreases as players get more comfortable in their roles and with their teammates. They understand their teammates’ behavior and body language, and are better able to predict what they are going to do.
They also can learn how to do things better (like feed and pass out of the post) and things that they shouldn’t do (leave your feet to throw a pass), and that helps too.
So, ya, I think we can clean it up a little.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich we looked pretty good getting that 9 pt lead! Then they hit 2 3’s, and we had several to’s on fast break. To many unselfish passes. Och and DDot. Missing Doke when he’s wide open. Tristan needs to go on in, and he’ll get better. But D Dot has me scratching my head, he’s had great defenders on him before. Changing his mind after he goes in w/no options. Those fast break passes will get better. Marcus did a good job on hurt. Their big was 2-2 on 3’s.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I agree with Enaruna getting time. He has so much upside and just needs experience.
With Dotson, I don’t think it was just Tre Jones or Duke’s defense that gave him problems. Our offense wasn’t great. Our post-passing sucked, our big-men can’t shoot, and probably the biggest thing was that we started three guys last night who didn’t attempt a 3-pointer. The lack of perimeter options and lack of spacing forced Dotson into some tough plays. He could have played better but I don’t think it was entirely Dotson’s fault.
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I aint blaming the refs but just doing a little what if.
What if the end of the first half was reviewable? ESPN sure didn’t want to give us the replay and damage Dukes sterling reputation, but I sure wish we’d have had at least a chance to score 2 at the end of the half.
I mentioned this on the game thread. I confirmed this sequence with my DVR. KU FT good. Duke guy grabs the ball out of bounds and throws it in bounds to a guy who does their inbounds passes. The guy who got the pass goes out of bounds to then complete a 2nd inbounds play. Total violation. Total botched call by an official who is supposed to be watching for such things. KU had no back court pressure might be the stripes reason for not watching it. A little while earlier something similar may have happened, I do remember thinking, wait, what was that? It may have even been us doing it? But it sure as heck went uncalled. Just for the record, Duke went down the floor and turned it over to us, so this is somewhat of a moot point, but it might have been a big missed call.
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Garrett got called for a phantom trip where O’Connell fell over his leg. @wissox
How many travels did KU have in the first half that weren’t called the same way on Duke. Jones walked a few times to long island
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Neither team looked very good last night. I will say that KU would’ve won fairly easily without that level of turnovers. Offensively, KU looked pretty much like I thought they would with two bigs out there. Defensively, I thought KU looked good. If you tell me before the game, KU would hold Duke under 70, I’ll take that every time.
None of the teams last night looked very good so I wish ESPN would go back to having this event the second week of the season so everyone could get a game or two in to improve the quality of the games. Last night was two ugly games that definitely looked like the first game of the season for all 4 teams.
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KU should’ve won by 20. They gave it away. I’m not scared of Duke in the tourney.
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@BeddieKU23 I agree. I usually don’t like to whine about officiating, but I saw several walks that weren’t called.
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I don’t think I would generalize and say we play better with Doke off the floor.
I think, for a large degree, we play as well as Doke plays. If he’s playing good, we are playing good. If not…
Doke really lacked composure. Of all his weaknesses, this has always been his biggest issue. He gets way too emotional in games when he needs to bear down and focus.
The key for all teams playing us is to disrupt Doke. Double-team or whatever, but get him playing with too much emotion and you have taken him out of his game. Draw a few fouls on him. Make him do things he doesn’t want to do. Put him on the line. I’m thinking Doke missing FTs hurts us worse by getting him upset more than losing a couple of points, though he made a couple of FTs in this game.
Come on, man… we played DUKE! There will always be “Duke calls.” Yeah… I counted at least 7 Duke calls. Enough to decide the outcome.
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If we stay healthy I feel even better about this team after that horrible performance. Bilas kept saying it… “Kansas is sticking around in this one with all these turnovers!”
We should carry a pretty big margin of error all year… meaning… we can play mediocre and beat most teams, even ranked teams. I know that doesn’t sound positive, but really… in March… you can count on us playing a bad game here and there and when we don’t have margin, we go home. This team should win most or all of those games!
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Overall it was an average to below average called game which is completely normal. Just pointing out the whistle wasn’t flowing both ways on the same calls. But the refs had minimal impact on the outcome which is what we like to see
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PER’s after game 1 are not good. Ochai at 15.6 led the team. Dotson, Azubuike, Silvio, Dave all well below their average. Garrett is the same player so far he was last year. Enaruna graded out the highest of the freshman, also played the most minutes which matters. Had some flashes but his 2nd half was freshman like. I really hope Self keeps drilling minutes into him. Coming off that screen when the defender dipped below him and nailing the 3 was a pleasant surprise. His length should be considered at the 4 spot depending on the opponent
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@BeddieKU23 Yeah I’m not too surprised. Going to be ugly after a game like that.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Enaruna should become a big time player for us, hopefully we will see some of that this year. It’s about keeping him aggressive because he has the skill set. I think we will see a much improved player after the new year.
And we can use him in spot detail at the 4 if we can’t get our bigs to guard the perimeter but he really doesn’t have the strength. This is a better assignment a year or two from now after he puts on some muscle.
I’m going to be shocked if Silvio and David can’t learn to guard the perimeter. It’s easy peasy. Just get out there and stick a hand in their face and go straight up. Don’t get caught having to make up space as they are going up or you are going to foul. If they drive the ball get out of the way and let someone close on him, preferably Doke. What we want to see is 4’s driving to the lane. This is where we teach some guys how to take a charge. Just watch how Tre Jones did it. He’s been very well coached on it. You stick your face into the ball handler. Face/head are completely off limits for contact and even though you may be out of position and coming in late, any time a defender gets clocked the foul goes on the ball handler. None of our guys knows this or practices this. This is where coaching comes in.
And then there is the high ball screen. Come on. We were taught to defend that in junior high. There are two good clips on KUSports showing how we got beat on the perimeter. One on a ball screen, the other where Hurt faked the drive on David and he immediately went backwards, like he had to stop the drive. Really poorly played on both plays. Shouldn’t be like that in D1. Players should know better already. Actually, it was Dotson who screwed up on the ball screen by going over the top and then continued to fail by following the ball handler, leaving Hurt wide open.
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@drgnslayr I realize I wear my heart on my sleeve and I tend to get mouthy after (any) loss, but I really have never liked him as a basketball player. I feel that his inconsistency on the court rattles/drains the whole team. His one claim to fame is his field goal percentage (well, the other claim to the opposite fame is his free throw percentage), but who gives a crap if he dunks the ball 5 times a game and makes 3 of 9 free throws? Give me a more athletic big man who can shoot from 10-15 feet and make 65% or more free throws. Someone who can make and catch a pass.
Just my opinion.
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I think last year sums it up. Weren’t we undefeated until he went down? Granted, we had some powder puff games in there… but.
I’m sure you and I could sit down and write out a long list of Doke’s faults and we would totally agree. But what we can’t take away from him is his presence. He has a big presence and he makes other teams adjust their game. That is huge.
This game wasn’t exactly any kind of barometer for the season because it was our first real game. I can’t believe they push this series up to being first. Back when they were a bit later so teams played a few real games first really made a big difference in the quality of the games. By making it the first game of the season they sort of make a mockery out of the top 4 teams who play.
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@drgnslayr True. I’ll bet the Michigan State fan boards look pretty similar to ours right now.
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@drgnslayr Doke does seem to play better when he is the only Big on the floor. Without the threat of outside shooting (which hopefully will improve when Moss can play) and two big guys that can’t step outside and hit a shot (and/ or pass well) this will likely continue. We need to obviously improve in those areas for Doke/ Dave or Doke/ Silvio to play well together.
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Hawk8086 said:
@drgnslayr Doke does seem to play better when he is the only Big on the floor. Without the threat of outside shooting (which hopefully will improve when Moss can play) and two big guys that can’t step outside and hit a shot (and/ or pass well) this will likely continue. We need to obviously improve in those areas for Doke/ Dave or Doke/ Silvio to play well together.
The 4 out definitely maximizes the effect of Udoka.
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I think we’ll continue to see flashes from him this season but its all dependent on the minutes. Offensively I see value in trying him at the 4 spot as he shown the ability to get into the lane where he could be a mismatch against 4’s and has shown at least something of a perimeter jumper that may pull a defender out on him as well. Now if he is only an average shooter from deep (which has kind of been the label on him coming in) then 2 bigs may be the better option but I see the value in trying him there at some point. Defensively your right he isn’t strong enough to defend a traditional 4 man with strength and size but he is 6’8 with a 7 foot wingpan and had two blocks in the opener so I think its dependent on matchup. If we see a bunch of Matthew Hurt’s playing the 4 all year why not? Or if Self ever decided on some zone defense I can see them masking him at the 4 in that scheme too. Just thoughts. He had some good moments on a big stage and I think we need to see what else he can do. I can’t imagine Self was thrilled what he got out of his big man lineup and Tristan definitely looks like has some position versatility that could be used if needed
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Gosh, imagine if we had a 4 who could bomb the trey? Sure would help out Doke!
I think we can build plenty of offense and have a chunk of it work through Doke, even if we play two bigs. Simple… use Silvio and David to set screens for our guards. Then have them cut to the basket and crash the offensive glass! Just being effective at that suddenly makes our big 4s a real plus instead of how they are used now, just clogging up space. We should never stick one of our big 4s on the perimeter unless he is setting screens because that allows our opponent to play us 5 on 4 since neither of our bigs is a threat from the outside.
This really isn’t rocket science and I get frustrated watching our guys play like this is complicated. Teach them the basics… that’s all we need. But this gets to my one big complaint; development. Focus coaching a bit more on coaching and perhaps less on recruiting. It’s frustrating to watch all the talent we get playing out there without being coached up enough. I’d rather watch a little less personal talent who is coached more.
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drgnslayr said:
Gosh, imagine if we had a 4 who could bomb the trey? Sure would help out Doke!
I think we can build plenty of offense and have a chunk of it work through Doke, even if we play two bigs. Simple… use Silvio and David to set screens for our guards. Then have them cut to the basket and crash the offensive glass! Just being effective at that suddenly makes our big 4s a real plus instead of how they are used now, just clogging up space. We should never stick one of our big 4s on the perimeter unless he is setting screens because that allows our opponent to play us 5 on 4 since neither of our bigs is a threat from the outside.
This really isn’t rocket science and I get frustrated watching our guys play like this is complicated. Teach them the basics… that’s all we need. But this gets to my one big complaint; development. Focus coaching a bit more on coaching and perhaps less on recruiting. It’s frustrating to watch all the talent we get playing out there without being coached up enough. I’d rather watch a little less personal talent who is coached more.
There was one play in the first half where Dave crashed the lane after a double team and got 3 point play I believe. We have 3 bigs that can’t pass the ball effectively at least from what we saw in Game 1. Actually this looked like a below average passing team if Duke is the barometer. Duke had a good game plan defensively, reminded me of the Nova game we obsessed about in the F4 years back. I don’t think anyone really handled the pressure that well. At least now they have film and experience to practice against this because other teams are going to see how that blueprint worked against us. I’m concerned our poor passing from the bigs and the team in general is not just because Duke game-planned well. We’ll see how the troops rally starting tomm
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@BeddieKU23 all of our bigs will learn how to pass out or the double or we will go to the 4 -1. We have clearly practiced it enough to try the entry pass from the bigs but not enough yet to be good at it. Give it time.
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Nice reference to Nova. That should help you and others (and me) with perspective.
I think we can safely say that very few of our teams ever could really handle big defensive pressure.
In a perfect world where teams are coached up to some degree these teams prefer to be hit with pressure because it creates an abundance of opportunities to exploit.
Here is the most-basic exploit. Devon had lots of trouble with Tre’s defense including when he got nailed for an offensive foul that was almost converted to a flagrant. Tre is well-coached and he leads with his face. Simple solution here. Devon works on drawing fouls. Devon learns how to create situations where Tre overplays him then he drives right into him to draw fouls. He could have done that at least a dozen times in this game. Do this twice in a game and usually the defender gets it and backs off or foul trouble is coming.
None of our guys know the first thing about drawing fouls nor the advantage it creates by demanding spatial respect. Gosh… this is really basic basketball. This should be covered a few times during one week of practice then the guys should be reminded in heavy pressure games to apply it. So so basic. In this game, we would have quickly ended Duke’s heavy pressure. We could have done the same thing in that Nova loss.
What we don’t do is counter tactics used by other teams. We will call time outs and then come back out and do the same thing. We did have a brief moment in the second half where we played more of our ball and we created our lead.
From my own experience, I was coached on things like drawing fouls and sometimes a coach would tell me to draw fouls, so I drew fouls and the games changed. It’s like playing chess and countering an attack. We should have these things coached into our players so we can counter off this. Most of the readers in here remember some of my old posts on all the different fakes. Without this very basic education in basketball we will always be vulnerable to teams who can bring big time pressure.
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@drgnslayr I do remember your post on fakes but would love to dig it back out… I tried to Google it but couldn’t find it
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Little of subject here BUT sending out a Silver /alert lol – missing Person - - -What has happened to KU Steve? – he is GONE - -anybody happen to know what happened? - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jayballer73 No one seems to know about him, or JayhawkFanToo, for that matter, as far as I have heard.
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What ever happened to Jaybate? Did he get offended and leave? I miss his artful wit.
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I believe the offensive foul your talking about was Agbaji using his forearm to create separation from Jones and caught him in the face due to his defensive positioning. Jones is a + defender and neither Dotson or Garrett handled it well when defended by him. Dotson looked very timid against him, almost freshman like. I know the kid will bounce back as we know he’s tough as nails but I was really surprised Dotson didn’t rise to the occasion given the high profile matchup. KU could have done a better job freeing Dotson from the pressure with ball screens. A lot of things were out of sync that I think will look better tonight at home. I do think Dotson will be the guy that can draw fouls consistently especially with his elite speed. There are very few PG’s in the nation that will be able to contain him when he’s at full speed and gets game reps.
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Not sure where Steve is. Jaybate said he was heartbroken by the adidas scnndal I thought, from what a friend of the family told us. Jayhawkfantoo had family stuff to attend to.
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Forgot about the Agbaji foul. I was thinking he drew an offensive foul on Devon, too.
Devon just needed a few plays where he changed driving direction suddenly and go right into Tre without lowering his shoulder or swinging his arms. Then “sell the call” too.
I put more blame on everyone else not reacting to the pressure. Devon didn’t exactly have anyone open to pass it to while he was being pestered by Tre.
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mayjay said:
@jayballer73 No one seems to know about him, or JayhawkFanToo, for that matter, as far as I have heard.
just vanished
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drgnslayr said:
What ever happened to Jaybate? Did he get offended and leave? I miss his artful wit.
Dam forgot bout him - -people dropping like flies - - miss Jethro lol
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I’ll be surprised if Duke’s team defense is as good as it was Tuesday the rest of the season. Jones is always going to be their best defender but I think KU played so poorly that it overstates their defensive stance, the 28 turnovers are such an outlier. Playing in MSG for these kids can just completely overwhelm them and I think that had a big impact on a lot of the individual performances. 30 NBA scouts were in attendance and its easy for kids to choose showing off instead of playing for the team and having poise.
Tonight’s a good game to see how they bounce back from a poise and sped up standpoint. The focus should be better in front of the home crowd too.
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@BeddieKU23 I think they played good defense but Devon was nervous and still hurt. Combine that with the fact that KU’s offense made it easy to defend and I would tend to agree Duke isn’t a defensive juggernaut.
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Duke looked like they should been ranked about 15 when KU played ‘em. It was just a sorry showing by the good guys in the first game of the season. It’ll be ok, things will get cleaned up soon. No worries.
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Evansville needs to foul here
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Or not
