Trouble?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@bskeet You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable.
I also understand that your slavery comment was not the first dive into that arena and that others have made similar suggestions, such as the “indentured servitude” link you’ve provided.
Of course, purposefully inflammatory, just like the slavery comments, to make folks think “drug cartel.”
When feelings enter the picture, folks throw out “slavery” in opinion. Something, again, inflammatory and plainly inapplicable.
I get that you are pretty bruised by the word slavery. Not meant to be inflammatory. Sorry you took offense.
There’s a lesson in rhetoric here that I get loud and clear.
Beating the point over and over again (also a rhetorical device) has not convinced me that the NCAA is not taking advantage of the collective population of student-athletes.
…And, how does any of this lead to the conclusion that the entire American workforce is exploited? That was the question for which I invited elucidation.
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@bskeet Not bruised, just recognizing the purposefully inflammatory mindset that would use such a comparison. With as much respect as possible, it’s just absolute, unequivocal nonsense. AND YOU KNOW IT. Everyone knows it. Nonsensical.
Oh, I noticed the slave Khalil Herbert has left the plantation. I don’t see a slave master chasing him down with dogs or whipping him for his CHOICE. That was after he slept in fine quarters, dined on excellent food, strode the plantation that is the KU campus as if he owned the place, and practiced his skills in front of thousands of adoring fans. Again, completely devoid of logic and used solely to inflame.
It’s interesting that we never see the counter argument on TV. We see lap dogs. ESPN round tables, or outside the lines, they just fawn over the topic. It’s no different than the media that assists left wing politicians by slanting news stories, choosing what to report, manipulating headlines, offering opinion as factual reporting, and lying about sources to serve its larger purpose – but I digress.
I agree that the NCAA is “taking advantage of” certain CBB and CFB athletes. Top level guys in those two sports are the only ones we could even consider in the discussion. Different than the idea of “exploitation” — but it’s a matter of degree. Part of my reply above was the following. Perhaps you don’t think it addressed your point. I intended to address it. See below from a post above:
@bskeet Low heat. On your statement, “A business model that exploits human beings would be unconstitutional.” And my response, “From your point of view, if this is the reply, then the entire American workforce is exploited.” You equated college athletics to slavery. Again, unfathomable. But if you believe athletes are “exploited” (again, the entire realm of NCAA athletes, not just the Andrew Wiggins’ level), then a look around America and the labor folks do that help other get rich, I think would lead easily to my conclusion. Athletes are pampered in large part, get extra tutoring, great food, nice living arrangements, gear, they get to travel/see the country, built in social life, all why attending college (some view as positive) for free (or in lower sports, a good chunk free if a partial scholarship). Every “worker” is exploited to some degree. It’s the level of exploitation that is legally important. The level of exploitation here is really very minimal compared to what we easily could argue elsewhere. I don’t even think it qualifies because there are so many other choices.
The poor fellow that can only dig ditches, no education, three kids, bills, rent, nothing in the bank account, trying to support a family – and his boss, the excavation company owner, makes him work overtime, limited pay, tough work. Let’s get real.
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@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
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Communistic thoughts abound. Redistribution of wealth and power to those who make the most noise, but haven’t earned it is becoming the norm. I hate the current sports and political climate. I’m out guys see you when the games start, maybe.
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BigBad said:
jhawk7782 said:
Meanwhile, North Carolina landed a commitment from five-star center Walker Kessler on Sunday night.
NCAA: No Academic Violations at UNC Ruling comes despite university’s finding that many athletes were for years enrolled in and passed courses they did not attend and that were not taught by anyone.
https://www.insidehighered.com/news/2017/10/16/breaking-ncaa-finds-no-academic-fraud-unc
I don’t buy into the “everyone else is doing it” excuse either but doesn’t it seem that the NCAA has always had double standards? Some schools seem immune to NCAA violations.
For the MILLIONTH time. The NCAA can not do ANYTHING about classes that a college accredits and offers to all students. UNC cheapened it’s university for sports, but not illegal.
Hey BigBad, I believe you but the NCAA still investigated although the ‘NCAA does not have oversight authority for university academic programs’ (wiki). Can’t the NCAA still charge the University with loss of institutional control?
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@HighEliteMajor When I tell you that it was not meant to be inflammatory and you retort that it was purposeful, then you are just picking a fight.
Presuming to know what I think or suggesting my mindset is also incendiary.
Simmer down. I can’t find the signal amidst all the noise.
You seem to be arguing that “everyone is exploited” to one extent or another, so that somehow indemnifies the NCAA. If that’s your argument, then I guess we’re philosophically on different sides. If not, sorry I don’t get it.
FWIW, I think it’s possible for a more balanced, fair and symbiotic relationship between the institution and the athletes. I think the NCAA used to preserve such a relationship, but market forces have shifted and they have not sufficiently evolved their rules and policies with the times. The NCAA is not as fair as it needs to be. It’s out of balance. They are making very small steps, but I think the market is telling them it is past due and not progressive enough.
The NCAA’s ability to resist market forces is another indicator that there aren’t adequate alternatives and they are monopolistic.
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Notable, also funny story about the weirdness that is the NCAA https://www.golf.com/news/features/2019/10/04/division-3-golf-dylan-dethier-ncaa/
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@FarmerJayhawk Yep, good example of the archaic and overly-restrictive rules. Also, fair and consistent enforcement seems to be beyond their capacity. Perhaps this is why they tend to lean toward hardline, dogmatic responses.
The motivation to change the system just isn’t there because the status quo is so lucrative — for them.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
Bam. You have said exactly what I’ve suggested. In my mind, it’s all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.
And I’m sorry, I’m not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves – more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.
Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city “culture” firsthand, said:
“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”
Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero … I mean zero … mention of personal responsibility from the “other side” of this issue.
I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.
A big hint – the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.
As I’ve said over and over, CHOICE.
Look at my bi-line. “What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?” This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.
As a conservative, I’ve had it. I’ve had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don’t care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It’s disgusting.
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Thank the the good Lord we have good people like @wissox who works w/young kids in the inner city. @benshawks08 sounds like a great teacher too!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks.
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@HighEliteMajor odd that you say you don’t care what they look like but specifically describe the appearance of those that are your enemy. Don’t have to read between the lines to see that a person who says black culture is my enemy is engaging in racist thoughts and behavior. It’s hate speech. It’s amoral. That kind of blatant white supremacy is exactly what prohibits a whole lot of people from doing, earning, or achieving.
Side note, I have no idea what inanimate objects you are referring to.
Honest question, what is your personal responsibility? Does it end with you? Your partner? Your children? Your neighbor? Your city?
Sure a person of color has choice but can you honestly say they have the same choices as you? How often are you stopped by police? If you and a black person commit the same crime who do you think will get the harsher sentence? Did you get suspended from school for discretionary offenses? What’s the personal responsibility of the cop, the judge, the teacher, the principal?
Sure there is more choice now, but 1 generation ago there wasn’t. Every black adult has a family member who was by law prohibited from doing, earning, and achieving.
We do agree that in this case the athletes may have more power than they are using with respect to boycotts. Wonder if they’ve ever heard about any boycotts in the past? Think grandpa told them about sitting at a counter? Think an athlete’s aunt ever rode a bus?
And what about the people in power? What legacy was passed down from their families? If I’d have spent more time as a child with my uncle in Missouri who was a card carrying member of the KKK, how might my choices be different?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks. The future is bright no matter how scared some people are of it. Kids get this stuff. Kids today seem to care about people more than money so that’s a start. At least the ones I know.
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@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.
Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.
I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.
Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.
I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.
More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.
Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.
Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?
This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”
And racism is the problem. What a joke.
So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.
When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.
It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).
Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.
You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.
Are you proud?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.
Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.
I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.
Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.
I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.
More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.
Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.
Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?
This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”
And racism is the problem. What a joke.
So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.
When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.
It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).
Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.
You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.
Are you proud?
UMM , UMM , UMM
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@HighEliteMajor Some people don’t like the answers to hard questions. I’ve been a foster parent for nearly 8 years now and race has no meaning to me so I’ve had Hispanic children and African American children (I love all children). I’ve had 3 and a 4 year olds in my house at that were already saying things like “f*** the police” , “f*** white people” and several other things that would probably get me removed from this blog. I had very rough upbringing and spent time living in a low income predominantly African American neighborhood. 90% of my friends lived with their moms and their mom didnt have any rules or discipline them. Over 70% of children in the inner will grow up without a father figure. To say abouslutely none of that is their fault is a load of crap. I’ve always enjoyed watching Judge Joe Brown and more times than I count he has told these young men to “Man up and take care of their children”. When I didnt do my home work my step whipped my a** with a leather belt. When my friends didnt, they got no punishment. They didnt get in trouble for skipping school or starting fights. So what happened to some my old friends? One them is in prison for murder, one of them is dead. But there are some that decided they didnt want to live that life. They got jobs and worked, just I like I did. You are in control of what you do, no one else.
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@HighEliteMajor Oh I didn’t realize you had a black friend. I retract my claim. You must not be racist.
You ask “WHY” and I really don’t know what you are referring him to. You say I’m afraid of the answer yet I see you didn’t answer any questions of mine. Wonder why that is?
Sorry fellow bucketeers, but my morals prevent me seeing racism and not calling it out. This is some of the most blatant racist ranting I have seen in a while and don’t think we should let it go unanswered.
If your not feeling anything or using your emotional capacity as a human being to impact your thoughts and actions you may need to seek some professional help. Emotions aren’t bad. They are a fairly significant aspect of the human experience.
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@kjayhawks I tell my students almost every single day, “the only persons actions you can control are your own” but to say an individual has full autonomy to do whatever they want is just silly. If you didn’t believe your actions could have an influence on those kids, you wouldn’t do what you do. Surely as a foster parent you’ve seen the impacts an environment can have on a child. Thank you for fostering kids of all races, ethnicities and cultures.
It’s tragic the fear and trauma that a small child saying those kinds of things must have endured. Is some of that responsibility shared by the parent. Of course. Is it also shared by police and white people? Probably.
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@benshawks08 Actions without proper consequences are part of the problem. Every situation is different and yes sometimes a white person is very well responsible for some of those issues. I felt that you insinuated that all problems in the inner cities are all on some else. I’m changing my small piece of the world as much a can. I refuse to ever give up on children. I’ve tried to teach several kids in our care that they can be loved and break the cycle that lays behind them. We have only taken in younger kids and the difference with discipline and love makes is unbelievable. Kids love to have rules, they know you care about them at that point.
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@kjayhawks I’m not trying to insinuate that people don’t have agency in their actions. I am trying to make some people think about their own personal responsibility instead of talking only about how this is someone else’s problem. And again, the racism is undeniable, right? Tell me I’m not the only one who sees it for what it is.
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@kjayhawks just hope you’re not whipping them w/a belt.
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@benshawks08 I dont believe @HighEliteMajor is trying to be racist personally. I think he can be harsh for sure though. It is our responsibility a residents in this country and of the world to help whom ever we can. I just wished more people in Washington and these celebrities that claim to care would step up do something besides put their name on gym and never return. If I won the lottery I would spend every dime with children in the inner city, the foster children that age out of care and are left in the street and a big rescue center for animals.
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@Crimsonorblue22 It is against the law to punish a foster with physical harm. I dont believe in belts. Standing the corner is my go to, then explaining to them in matter they can relate to as to why it was wrong.
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@kjayhawks I’d hope most people aren’t trying to be racist in 2019. I’m sure most don’t feel they are but it doesn’t mean the things they say and do aren’t. Being accidentally racist doesn’t make someone a bad person. Now, having it pointed out and continuing without changing starts a different story. An open mind is a wonderful thing. Open to learning about others and most importantly learning about ourselves.
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@Crimsonorblue22 honestly I’m against spanking in general. I don’t want my children to fear failure or feel like they will be physically attacked. I want my kids to understand mentally what’s right and wrong.
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@Crimsonorblue22 The personal responsibility folks are going to lose it over this, but research shows punishment in general has a negative impact on future behavior. Positive reinforcement is much better at eliminating negative behaviors. Same for dogs, kids and adults.
Decision is do you want to feel good about punishing someone or do you want to change the behavior. For some people the feeling is more important.
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You don’t need money to make a difference, look at @wissox. I’m sure he could be working somewhere else and making much more money. It’s on his heart to work w/inner city kids, not continually gripe about them. He is making a difference, as well as @benshawks08 wherever he is teaching. There are probably more good people on here that are teachers, coaches and/or mentors to kids.
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@benshawks08 It’s easy to cry racist. Simple minded, of course. Easy. The “go to” when facts get in the way. I knew of course when I mentioned my black friend, and I have one, you’d make that comment. I have another that I consider a friend, an architect, but we’ve not been in contact as our kids went to different high schools. Your simplistic mocking of that portion of my comment truly defines your shallowness on this topic. That’s leftist playbook 101.
Oh, emotions are good. They can many time lead to the correct conclusions. But here, your (and others) emotions and feelings drive you away from facts and logic. Your empathy for human suffering, for kids that did nothing to cause their plight, blind you to the “why.” You and others are overwhelmed by that.
Your convulsive “racist” claims of course define your approach to the facts. Facts you can’t refute. Realities you can’t refute.
And in your response to @kjayhawks, don’t try this, “oh, it happens with white people” stuff. Of course it does. Everything does. We all know that. White people are thugs too. All races. The worst killers in world history have been white – Hitler and Stalin. That culture was toxic and horrific.
We’re talking here and now in America. And we’re talking percentages and degrees. That’s what’s important. Where is the core of violence, who commits it, and why? That’s what we’re talking about.
In 1964, 24% of black kids were born out of wedlock. Last stat known, it was 73% for black kids now (and much higher in the inner city). For whites, it’s about 28% last I saw. If pointing out that troubling reality, and the horrific conduct that is part of the inner city black culture, is racist by your definition, fine.
If you don’t have parents in the home, teaching the proper lessons, what chance does a kid have?
We spend out time wringing our hands over the mass shootings (which are of course horrible too) but we see very little about the inner city carnage? I little kid is shot on his porch and it’s on the third page of the paper. Three get shot and because it’s drug related, we gloss over it. As a conservative, every life is important to me. Every one. And the constant dismissal of this conduct and violence as back page news, or no news, is just repulsive to me.
Finally, your post above, “racism is undeniable.” Correct. That’s easy. But it’s again percentages and degrees. Now, we’re in a much different world and have been for quite a while. There will always be racism. So you always have that to fall back on. Try thinking. Analyzing. Searching for why. Past racism is a part of that answer. I don’t deny that, and never have.
But that excuse/rationale is every decreasing and is now far, far outweighed by opportunity. But when the opportunity is not seized, when folks commit crimes and fail, they rely on you (and others like you) for the ever present excuse – racism. It will always be there for you. Everything with you comes back to racism and that is, by itself, completely illogical.
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@benshawks08 I absolutely hate parents that are excited to spank their kids. My step father was that way. He jump up with a smile on his face and sprint to the belt. Sick SOB he was but that’s another topic.
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@benshawks08 agree!
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@Crimsonorblue22 my wife taught in the some of the rough public schools in St. Louis for several years. We do what we can for sure.
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@HighEliteMajor @benshawks08 That is the issue for me, I do not claim any side when it comes to politics. But right now there is no middle. If I disagree with a Democrat I’m a racist and a Nazi. Which is sickening to compare someone to Hitler or a Nazi. I’ll have to try and find a article that a holocaust survivor wrote about insulting that is to them.
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@HighEliteMajor I only “cry racism” when you write racist things. It’s not every answer but it is an answer you refuse to accept. I ask again where you are getting these percentages not as an argumentative tool but as one of curiosity. Just curious about your source.
Poverty, violence, trauma, racism are cycles and systems that continually feed themselves.
And you are definitely right that opportunity is a huge part of the answer. And just like there are percentages and degrees with racism, those same percentages and degrees exist with opportunity. Does everyone have an opportunity? Sure. The same opportunity? As many opportunities? That’s where you and I don’t see eye to eye.
And no I will never turn off my empathy. I’d encourage you to turn yours up a few notches but you are of course free to do and think what you choose.
If you really care about every life, which I truly think is an honest belief you hold, do some research about work being done to help people and consider funding some with that big salary you try so hard to hold onto. Assigning blame doesn’t actually fix anything.
Appreciation to @Crimsonorblue22 and @kjayhawks and all the others for doing the work.
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It’s CULTURE not race. A few hundred years from now history books will look back at this time and use it as an example that multiculturalism doesn’t work. If you think you are different you are either ignorant or naive. If you think its taught then look at any school cafeteria and see how kids congregate with similar cultures. In school culture is jocks, nerds, artsy types, etc. In real life it’s religion, political belief, family background and culture. Cultures will ALWAYS clash.
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Race is the #1 determining factor in predicting success of students in education. There are other factors but race is #1. Look at test scores, graduation rate, degrees earned, anything.
You can draw two conclusions from that data: The educational system does not serve all students equally based on race.
Or
Students who are not white are not as capable of success.
Hint: the second one is racist.
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@benshawks08 clearly institutionalized problems don’t exist and these non white kids are simply… Yeah I can’t even finish this as a joke.
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BigBad said:
It’s CULTURE not race. A few hundred years from now history books will look back at this time and use it as an example that multiculturalism doesn’t work. If you think you are different you are either ignorant or naive. If you think its taught then look at any school cafeteria and see how kids congregate with similar cultures. In school culture is jocks, nerds, artsy types, etc. In real life it’s religion, political belief, family background and culture. Cultures will ALWAYS clash.
Exactly. Right on point. The issue I’ve discussed deals specifically with what is born from the inner city black culture. There are millions of blacks that don’t subscribe. There are millions of non-blacks that do. Culture. Jason Whitlock described it as cultural rot.
But that doesn’t mean there aren’t other cultural issues that are highly problematic. One that is obvious to me is the rural white meth culture here in mid-America. But you don’t see near the level of violence, not even close.
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HighEliteMajor said:
benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor @bskeet It’s racism. That’s the point you both are bouncing around but never actually touching. White people hate talking about racism because they can’t win anymore. One of you (@bskeet ) understands at least innately if not explicitly that a big factor in this argument is the race a significant population of the players compared to the race of the significant population of the people in power. And so in your arguments you bring up former instances of racism like slavery.
The other (@HighEliteMajor ) definitely understands the racial element but seeks to remove it completely from the conversation because it’s “social justice garbage” and if he pretends race isn’t really a factor he can live in his land of logic where humanity is just weak feelings crap. Anytime someone suggests an idea that might redistribute power from top down, those in power (or at least those that look like those in power) do what they can to maintain that power.
Of course college basketball and slavery aren’t the same thing. Of course there is more choice for a college athlete today than for a slave in the 1800s or for current slaves today in the american penal system. However the RACISM driving the issue and argument is very much the same. It is impossible to discuss the conflict between a workforce made up primarily of people of color and executives who are primarily white without discussing race. I know it’s scary for us whites but we’d be better off it we’d just call it like it is and talk about the stuff we are afraid of.
Some people aren’t going to like this comment because it brings “politics” into a sports conversation but sorry, race is one of the biggest issues in sports right now. White sports fans look at black athletes making millions of dollars or getting “free rides” and think those folks should feel lucky, but ignore the white owners and execs making 100s of millions of dollars and maintaining systems that uphold that economic inequity. I’m sure HEM will argue that the owners “earned” those millions by working harder and being smarter. They didn’t. They aren’t.
Bam. You have said exactly what I’ve suggested. In my mind, it’s all about the poor inner city black kid. That is the core of what has driven this issue.
And I’m sorry, I’m not going to permit my life, my thoughts, my actions, and my concerns to be predicated upon a culture that refuses to help themselves – more appropriately, a self-destructive culture.
Rahm Emanuel, an Obama democrat, the former mayor of Chicago that saw this inner city “culture” firsthand, said:
“This may not be politically correct,” he said, “but I know the power of what faith and family can do. … Our kids need that structure. … I am asking … that we also don’t shy away from a full discussion about the importance of family and faith helping to develop and nurture character, self-respect, a value system and a moral compass that allows kids to know good from bad and right from wrong.”
He added: “If we’re going to solve this … we’ve got to have a real discussion. … Parts of the conversation cannot be off-limits because it’s not politically comfortable. … We are going to discuss issues that have been taboo in years past because they are part of the solution. … We also have a responsibility to help nurture character. It plays a role. Our kids need that moral structure in their lives. And we cannot be scared to have this conversation.”
Of course, there was anger in response, marching, verbal attacks, etc. Zero … I mean zero … mention of personal responsibility from the “other side” of this issue.
I would say that our country would be much better off if we can take what @benshawks08 said, and what Rahm Emanuel said, and honestly address what ails our inner city.
A big hint – the discussion has nothing to do with blaming inanimate objects.
As I’ve said over and over, CHOICE.
Look at my bi-line. “What in America is anyone prohibited from doing, earning, or achieving?” This is what America offers in 2019. Undeniable.
As a conservative, I’ve had it. I’ve had with the glorification of a bankrupt culture (inner city black culture) and with the continued garbage we deal with day in, and day out. To the core of my beliefs, people that hurt people, commit carnage, destroy lives, and have no morality are enemy. They are the enemy of a civil society. I don’t care what they look like. Yet we want to explain away, continually, the repulsive and destructive behavior. It’s disgusting.
I am not afraid to discuss anything, even - oh no! - race (though I think that it should be reserved for political boards, which I do not participate in). The constant but this and but that habbit that this nation so loves while trying to paint over issues is getting old and pathetic. “Yeah, but there is a reason for that!”
“True,” I say, “there may be, but the thing that we are talking about is still there, regardless.”
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HighEliteMajor said:
@benshawks08 Please note the distinction. “Inner city black culture.” It has nothing to do with my black neighbor.
Inner city black culture. You know what it is. I know what it is. We all know what it is. You can turn your back on it, cry racism. I don’t give one good d*** what you think about me.
I care about our country. The absolute violence and carnage brought on our country by the inner city black culture is astounding and unmatched. Don’t talk to me about the 1800s or 1930, or whatever. This is today.
Look at Late Night at AFH and the disgusting show put on in the name of our university. All in the name of ATTRACTING the black athlete. We should all be absolutely embarrassed. This is what is needed to gets kids to sign? Disgusting.
I watched suburban kids try to mimic the disgusting culture. Pants hanging halfway down their a** — an inner city black culture invention to glorify the gangster in jail that has no belt and can’t keep his pants up. Just beautiful.
More importantly than that, a culture of drive by shootings, random acts of carnage, roaming gangs — a culture where choosing to grab a gun and kill someone is ingrained. Daily. Not here and there. DAILY.
Among blacks, 73% of births are out of wedlock. In the inner city, much higher. That has steadily increased since the 60s. To me, this is the most important cause of the inner city destruction we see now.
Worse, black dads with multiple children, with multiple women. It’s an epidemic in the inner city black communities. Heck, look at our BB teams. Who’s got a dad? Whose dad is in jail. Whose mom has the same last name as her son? How many half brothers and half sisters?
This is the plague of the inner city black culture — the answer to the “why.”
And racism is the problem. What a joke.
So don’t give me this racism crap. I don’t care what you call it. I call it reality.
When I see a buddy of mine, a black surgeon, actively trying to keep his kids AWAY from the inner city black culture, that is a huge answer for me. When I hear him discuss it, it cements it.
It’s really sick. We see a “mass” shooting, 10 dead, 20 injured. Horrific. But then we IGNORE the carnage of a single night in Chicago, or a weekend in STL, or you name the Inner city (the deep blue voting areas by no coincidence).
Why? Because the ANSWER makes you uncomfortable. You and others like you operate on feelings. Not facts. You want to normalize abhorrent behavior. You’ll blame everything except the personal behavior.
You are the dangerous enabler. Well intentioned. But when there are so many folks that provide excuses, refuse to demand personal responsibility, we have what we see in the inner cities. It’s easier to give things away than make demands.
Are you proud?
You have offered your opinion, and a well worded thought out one I might add. You have the right to your opinion, and I see nothing wrong with it. Again, ignoring problems is one of this nation’s true weaknesses.
Now I will offer one, the inner city should not be glorified because they are what they are - places that people do not want to live in (even those who live there.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor I only “cry racism” when you write racist things. It’s not every answer but it is an answer you refuse to accept. I ask again where you are getting these percentages not as an argumentative tool but as one of curiosity. Just curious about your source.
Poverty, violence, trauma, racism are cycles and systems that continually feed themselves.
And you are definitely right that opportunity is a huge part of the answer. And just like there are percentages and degrees with racism, those same percentages and degrees exist with opportunity. Does everyone have an opportunity? Sure. The same opportunity? As many opportunities? That’s where you and I don’t see eye to eye.
And no I will never turn off my empathy. I’d encourage you to turn yours up a few notches but you are of course free to do and think what you choose.
If you really care about every life, which I truly think is an honest belief you hold, do some research about work being done to help people and consider funding some with that big salary you try so hard to hold onto. Assigning blame doesn’t actually fix anything.
Appreciation to @Crimsonorblue22 and @kjayhawks and all the others for doing the work.
There are multiple sources for the unwed births, below are just a few. I got the 24% in 1960s from the Brookings study.
The big salary you say I try to hold onto is one that I earn. I don’t actually earn a “salary.” I earn money. What I earn I get (with all the risks and anxiety of running a business including making sure I can pay my employees). You don’t worry about that. But I know that you have other worries – worries nonetheless.
Assigning blame does fix problems. See, you’re a schoolteacher. Good for you. I’m not. I am to find solutions to problems, which is critical to my job, and I have ask “why”. In fact, that is at the core of our disagreement. In your position, you don’t have to ask why. You are in the position of simply helping. In my business, if I don’t solve problems, I’m out of work. I have to ask why. To solve this, we have to ask why. I would also offer that in the pursuit of truth, the question of “why” is key to that endeavor.
And thus you can review the statistics on the issue that drives teh “why” in 2019, that you don’t seem to appreciate.
https://www.washingtonexaminer.com/77-black-births-to-single-moms-49-for-hispanic-immigrants
https://yaleglobal.yale.edu/content/out-wedlock-births-rise-worldwide
https://www.brookings.edu/research/an-analysis-of-out-of-wedlock-births-in-the-united-states/
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There is no clear cut racism. If you hate one group of people, you hate other people as well.
You either love people or you hate people. The color that you hate can change daily.
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@HighEliteMajor We are both talking about our reasons for why. As the lowly school teacher you seem to have so little respect for it might surprise you that I too solve problems every day.
So just so I understand your stance, single black mothers are the biggest problem in our nation. And the reason they are single parents is “black culture.” And this is the driving force of the debate regarding paying ncaa athletes. And none of that has anything to do with racism or white people because “choice.” That about right?
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benshawks08 said:
Race is the #1 determining factor in predicting success of students in education. There are other factors but race is #1. Look at test scores, graduation rate, degrees earned, anything.
You can draw two conclusions from that data: The educational system does not serve all students equally based on race.
Or
Students who are not white are not as capable of success.
Hint: the second one is racist.
You might ask “why.” You don’t want to.
You offer only two conclusions, the concept of which is self-serving and nonsensical. The fact that you posed it this ways indicates that you have no interest in the truth. And it’s funny, you say you don’t want to assign blame but you blame racism. Hmmm.
Of course, Asians achieve, educationally, superior to whites in America. Did you know that?
Why not ask why?
It’s interesting that poverty is linked to out of wedlock births. https://www.usnews.com/news/newsgram/articles/2013/05/06/census-bureau-links-poverty-with-out-of-wedlock-births
And what do you know, Asians out of wedlock births are around 17.7 %. Way lower that white, hispanics, and blacks. One of a number of sources. https://www.nationalreview.com/corner/latest-statistics-out-wedlock-births-roger-clegg/
Guess who makes more money than whites? Right. Asians, https://www.census.gov/content/dam/Census/library/visualizations/2018/demo/p60-263/figure1.pdf
Positing a theory here. Asians have mom and dad in the home. Asians have stricter discipline. Asians’ culture fosters achievement. Asians have more humility. Asians are smarter. Asians don’t dish out blame for failure.
When I compare, I compare to myself – to whites.
We should not be scared or afraid to talk about this stuff. We should not be intimidated by folks like @benshawks08 and his ilk. I’m not. They try to intimidate to stop discussion by crying racist, because most folks fear that label. Not me. Truth is more important.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor We are both talking about our reasons for why. As the lowly school teacher you seem to have so little respect for it might surprise you that I too solve problems every day.
So just so I understand your stance, single black mothers are the biggest problem in our nation. And the reason they are single parents is “black culture.” And this is the driving force of the debate regarding paying ncaa athletes. And none of that has anything to do with racism or white people because “choice.” That about right?
Actually, the inner city culture has fostered a significant lack of responsibility by black men. All you have to do is look at the stats. Killings, assaults, violence are part of the story. Multiple kids with multiple women is another part. Again, we see it every day. A culture of violence and moral deprivation. I’m not giving inner city black women a free pass. Far from it. They are part of the culture.
But it is the women that have a raise the kids. They bear the burden. But the men move on. It is an epidemic in the black community.
And black women don’t kill and maim like black men. They are the single most violent and dangerous group in America. Period. Undeniable.
The driving force for paying athletes is the continued, collective weeping for the poor inner city black (male) athlete. The continued blather of how he’s treated unfairly. So, because of that perception, everything in college sports has to change. That’s what drives the entire discussion, the interest from pro athletes, etc.
In fact, the amount of collective time our society spends dealing with the continued issues of inner city black men could be a singular course offering on “opportunity cost.”
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@HighEliteMajor and is the color of Asians skins closer to that of white people or black people? Were Asians systematically brought to this country as slaves? Asians have certainly faced a good share of racism in this country but by percentages and degrees it is far less than the systematic oppression of black people.
Also, what discussion have I stopped or even attempted to stop? I’ve engaged with questions in almost every post encouraging the conversation. Please at least try to be intellectually honest and engage in good faith conversation.
Thanks for the links to the stats.
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@HighEliteMajor Ok, so it’s also and mostly black men and really if you think about it they aren’t even worth the trouble. Got it.
And how often are those black men stopped by the police? If police stopped white people at the same rate how many white men would be in prison for low level drug charges?
You want some why questions to work on? Why in 2019 is there still not equal pay for equal work? Might employers like yourself bare any personal responsibility for that? Nah probably not. I’ve yet to see you take any of that personal responsibility you seem to love so much for anything.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor and is the color of Asians skins closer to that of white people or black people? Were Asians systematically brought to this country as slaves? Asians have certainly faced a good share of racism in this country but by percentages and degrees it is far less than the systematic oppression of black people.
Also, what discussion have I stopped or even attempted to stop? I’ve engaged with questions in almost every post encouraging the conversation. Please at least try to be intellectually honest and engage in good faith conversation.
Thanks for the links to the stats.
Asians have achieved more by race than whites. More.
Pretty funny. Now you say, oh, Asians skin color is closer so, you know … they’re ok. You folks will do/say anything to deflect personal responsibility. Heck, I listened to it for years with the mayor of KC constantly blaming guns for the violence problems in inner city KC. That’s intellectual dishonesty. But it’s everything except the inner city black thug that shoots the little kid on the patio.
Intellectually honest? You and others of your ilk refuse to think outside of the racist box. I, on the other hand, certain consider that as part of the overall analysis. But in 2019, that is not in the top five of reasons “why.”
Intellectually honest? When someone claims racism, and racist rants, that has what is termed a “chilling” effect on debate. No one want wants to be called a racist. It’s considered pretty vile. So when you say that one’s position is racist that’s the effect. Try to figure that out.
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benshawks08 said:
@HighEliteMajor Ok, so it’s also and mostly black men and really if you think about it they aren’t even worth the trouble. Got it.
And how often are those black men stopped by the police? If police stopped white people at the same rate how many white men would be in prison for low level drug charges?
You want some why questions to work on? Why in 2019 is there still not equal pay for equal work? Might employers like yourself bare any personal responsibility for that? Nah probably not. I’ve yet to see you take any of that personal responsibility you seem to love so much for anything.
So, it’s the fault of the police. Because they are arresting criminals. Another in the playbook.
One thing you and again, others of your ilk ignore – the necessary level of policing to keep the inner city areas from being the next version of Escape from New York.
Here, in Johnson County, I barely see a police officer. If I have drugs, my likelihood of getting pulled over is very limited. Why? Because we’re not engaged in ritualistic violence day in, and day out. But somehow that gets translated into unfairness to blacks.
In the inner city, there has to be a heavy police presence – if not, the inner city thugs would wreak even more destruction. More police needed, more police deployed, more possible contact with the police, more actual contact with the police, more criminals caught. It’s comical, the good folks in the inner city want more police and protection. The good, hard working inner city folks are the ones that suffer most. Check the black on black inner city crime stats. Killing and maiming each other at alarming rates. Undeniable. You lose again.
Every time I debate one of “you”, I’m continually shocked by the shallowness of thought on these topics. You say things that I’m sure you and your little leftist buddies chuckle about, and wring your hands, but it’s no different than the folks we see presented in the media today – if you are actually confronted with reality, you have nothing. Ah, nothing but “you’re a racist.”
I’m done. Good evening. You get the last word.
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@HighEliteMajor Unfortunately according to statistics and facts racism still is #1.
When have I or anyone else ever said a person who shoots another person holds no responsibility for that action?
I’d argue more people are turned off by your blatant racism than my calling it out.
You try to bully people out of a discussion with wordiness and aggression. You’re very comfortable judging others and rarely if ever look inward. You routinely generalize about people while talking about the importance of the individual. You generalize about race, political affiliation, socioeconomic status and anything else you can think of the paint entire groups of people as the same so that you don’t have to think at all about your contribution to any problem. It’s always them and they.
For me people aren’t racist but actions, words, systems and policies often are. Enjoy your perfectly safe neighborhood and have a good evening.
