13-8
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@mayjay @KUSTEVE To the important point. We can disagree. But can we start by being civil? I directed nothing to either of you in my posts before yours. You both though replied with canned attacks. From @KUSTEVE - “I know that doesn’t fit your anti-Self narrative” and “Your buddy Squeeky Weber would’ve had a nervous breakdown.”, and then from @mayjay - “You seem to love kicking every player who leaves for any reason you deem unacceptable. Perhaps you know it all (your famed secret information) but I doubt it.”
That does nothing to foster debate or discussion. I would offer that a more interesting approach might be to dissect my summary and show how I’m wrong.
I would also suggest an easy way to deal with this is to leave out that sort of stuff, and just focus on the facts. If not, that leads to a response that starts spinning the wrong way (and a while back, I decided I was kind of done turning the other cheek).
To the issue of discussion, it is highly likely, as I said, that the story is really a cover story. Is it true, or untrue? I don’t think anyone now thinks its true. Who does? May we compliment Self for not embarrassing Vick too much? Sure. But that means Self was untruthful. No way to dress that up. But I understand, it’s like lying about Santa Claus. Very good reasons.
But then, it’s plain that his words following Vick’s departure did throw Vick under the bus. How is that even deniable? The clear and not so subtle reminders that this team, this situation, and Self’s enjoyment is much better – all after Vick departed.
And @mayjay, I think you will agree that my post on the info that I heard on Vick was tactful, and done in a way to convey it reasonably. I wanted to just share it with this forum. Further, although I’ve heard things before, I’ve been very hesitant to post – and on two high profile items, the info I heard turned out right on point. One of them the exact same source as this. But it is generally unreliable to use hearsay, and thus no need rumor monger. And that’s how I’ve approached it. Rather, sometimes, I construct the facts to support the conclusion rather than cite that I have heard something. One such item was Lightfoot’s broken nose.
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Are we actually arguing if Vick got kicked off the team or not?
Because he did. It’s clear as day. As clear as any other time Bill sent a player packing.
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Kcmatt7 said:
Are we actually arguing if Vick got kicked off the team or not?
Because he did. It’s clear as day. As clear as any other time Bill sent a player packing.
Listen to this man.
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@HighEliteMajor Your insults don’t bother me. Your insults at the players and coaches don’t really bother me, either. I hope your day gets better.
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@HighEliteMajor Stating an opinion as fact doesn’t make that opinion a fact.
You can interpret Self’s comments as throwing Vick under the bus all you want, but someone else can just as easily view it as not throwing Vick under the bus and neither is wrong despite what you think.
Until Self, Vick, or someone in Vick’s camp comes out says what actually happened, everything you, me, or anyone else has to say about Vick, or any other person that has left the program, is speculation.
Only a handful of people know definitively why Vick is gone and those people aren’t talking about.
To say Self is being untruthful about Vick is you, and anyone else sharing that opinion, making an assumption about the situation when none of us here have all the facts. I wouldn’t even say Self is untruthful in those situations. I would say he’s only giving the public a portion of the picture so as not to embarrass those players.
We can speculate all day long about what the personal matter Vick is dealing with in Memphis that’s keeping away from the team, but until someone in the know comes out and says it was Vick’s attitude, drug related, or something with his daughter, anything anyone says is speculation and not fact.
All of those things all personal matters and by Self leaving it at that, he’s not being untruthful about the situation, he’s just choosing not to give the full picture to keep the distractions among the team to a minimum.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree with much of what you said, as opinion goes. But one cannot ignore how the information lines up, and then, using common sense based on the history with Vick (more information), reach a reasonable conclusion. Folks are convicted and go to jail on such an analysis. Of course, that analysis is sometime wrong. Thus my “highly likely” qualification.
Additionally, I think dishonesty encompasses purposefully leaving out info that shows the true situation. I think we all agree on that. If one concludes Self was dishonest, which seems easy to conclude, one can also agree that such a approach is reasonable and even admirable, as I’ve said.
If one reads Selfs post-Vick comments, and doesn’t see the passive-aggressive linkage to Vick’s absence, then that’s fine. As with many topics, some only open their minds to what they want to see.
I can leave open the possibility of mere coincidence. And that it wasn’t even Self’s intent. Let’s go that road. But with that, his choice of words given the circumstances with Vick were then very poor if he was trying to avoid throwing Vick under the bus.
If Self is so smart, as some think he is, that would not have happened. Self is way too brilliant. Insert sarcasm emoji here.
It is entertaining though that some can’t see the possibility that Self did purposefully implicate Vick with his comments. That his statements might have evidenced a normal human reaction to a player he counted on letting him down. That he was making a point about locker room culture.
@KUSTEVE I never once insulted you. Just read above. Your antics are sad.
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Wow- you guys get into it in a hurry don’t you? We can agree to disagree here without bringing in personal “cyber-micro-aggressions” into the mix, can’t we?
First of all, it really is a sad thing about Vick. He came here to play ball, he struggled for a variety of reasons, but mostly mental is the optics here, he left, then my guess he was advised by people close to him to try and get the right attitude to come back which would be the best path forward for him, and remember self let him come back. I would hazard a guess that Self had some pause, but he gave him another chance. Once back, He looked good, looked like a potential leader on the team, then my guess is his old demons crept back in, and he had to go away again. He indeed may have some serious mental issues… millions of people do. I honestly have no idea what it would be like to play D1 level ball at a top program While fulfilling your academic obligations. Lots of pressure, and remember he was the the de facto senior -leader. It could be an anger control issue, and Vick may have lashed out inappropriately after games at every one, or just shut down mentally, who knows. Anyway I always rooted for him hard, and hope for the best for him. Just sad he’s not here to soak in the love on senior day… sad.
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@Bosthawk Good thoughts, although I don’t see the discussion above as real nasty. I’ve seen a lot worse even on our beloved site. I’ve enjoyed the back and forth. Some of it is just frustration over a season high on potential dissolving into comments about we may lose in the 1st round.
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Hippa laws
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@HighEliteMajor you nailed it when you said “common sense” that’s all it takes to understand and read what happened.
It’s 100% known that Self did not want Vick back and or expect him back to start the year. He was on a short leash to begin with.
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@Crimsonorblue22 So…you are saying…mental health issues?
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@Hawk8086 no, but if it was about health issues…
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Do you think the fact Self gave him a 2nd chance has left him in a defensive stance here regarding what to say and what not to. Maybe Self feels responsible for this situation. We know he likes to protect his players even if it means he doesnt get to be completely honest with it all. Just giving us enough sound bites here and there to form our own opinions. The fact he isn’t here for Sr Night confirms my thoughts and common sense
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KUSTEVE said:
@HighEliteMajor Is that your smoking gun? Sounds to me like he was trying to encourage a young team that was now starting 4 freshmen. I know that doesn’t fit your anti-Self narrative, but it’s closer to the truth, imo. It’s not often we have a player that simply quits on a team, regardless of the circumstances. i could think of some coaches around the country that would’ve been far less diplomatic than Self was with Vick. Your buddy Squeeky Weber would’ve had a nervous breakdown.
Having open eyes that Self is operating very skillfully in a competitive and corrupt environment is not an anti-Self agenda.
BTW, where is Jaybate a known huge Self supporter after his shoe conspiracy theories came to roost right on our doorstep and at his hero Self’s feet?
Don’t get me wrong, fully support Self but doesn’t mean have to wear rose colored glasses.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 when Self put a time reference on the comment about the locker room, that makes it clear.
I suppose one can ignore that and not make the reference, but that’s sticking head in the sand IMO.
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I just don’t get the whole Self can do no wrong stereotype at times. Bill is a great coach, one of best but me being a former coach and being associated with the game for decades, I don’t always agree with what he does. He himself has said several times in post game interviews in his time here that he did this and that wrong or what not. Bill most likely knows more about the game than any of us or so we would hope lol. But no bats a 100%, no one lives mistake free. @Crimsonorblue22 Did they have a video or anything mentioning Vick?
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@kjayhawks no
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Not that it was in question, but Self just confirmed Vick is not coming back this year.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Tharpe, Adams, Vick, Greene, Bragg, Giles. The land of the lost.
Each one of those guys got more than a few chances. I actually think at times Self puts up with too much.
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@Crimsonorblue22 You and me both, Sistah!
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We should not forget Coach made it public Vick had to sign a contract when he came back regarding behavior and expectations. Cleary the contract was broken and he had the guts to uphold the healthy boundary that was crossed. And IMHO he had the class to not embarrass Vick.
A lot of guys in the Big 12 have been kicked off teams this year. Part of what coaches have to do. Seems to me Coach handled it about as well as he could in light of all the other garbage going on.
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Bwag said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 when Self put a time reference on the comment about the locker room, that makes it clear.
I suppose one can ignore that and not make the reference, but that’s sticking head in the sand IMO.
It’s still an assumption that cannot be 100% proven unless somebody outright says it was about Vick. Claiming something like that as fact can be dangerous territory without having the whole picture and that’s my point.
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The truth is, we have to find a way to justify not winning our 15th consecutive Big 12 Championship and Vick is as good a scapegoat as any. On any given night, he could make the oppositions best defender look like a buffoon, or he could walk on the court and act like he’s never seen a basketball before. He was poison and he was elixir, always on separate occasions.
All the Doke, DeSousa talk, the lack of experience - it’s all mumbo jumbo. Let’s just blame it all on Vick and look forward to football season.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Ok … dangerous territory is what you say. Then Self walked us onto the ledge by his comments. Folks assume coach Self is smart. That he can at least manage his comments and understand the implications. Yet he is so bold as to make these sorts of comments just following Vick’s departure, on a topic (Vick’s attitude) that has been a topic of concern, and they not be connected? Or, more directly, that Self can’t understand how a third grader might connect the comments to Vick? I’m not in the business of “100% proven.” Heck, neither is the criminal justice system. That’s not the standard there. It’s a false standard that has zero relevance. No one is saying 100% true, though. The only way it’s not linked is if Self is clueless, and I don’t buy that – his comments are most of the time very measured, except when he’s mad.
But if you deny the obvious here, the clear likelihood that the comments are connected (given Self’s aptitude with the media),the timing of the comments, the historical issues related to Vick, and the substance of the comments Self made (given it bears on Vick’s historical issues), then such a black and white statement lacks all credibility.
Not sure why the reasonable possibility that comments related to Vick is so threatening? Heck, I applaud Self for the linkage (if … uh, uh … uh … wink, wink … the comments were related to Vick).
@nuleafjhawk Question - I guess I missed it. Who is blaming Vick for anything? Who is making him the scapegoat? Let’s maybe avoid making Vick a victim here. I really sense no anger or resentment at Vick. I have none. He’s just a knucklehead. But we knew he was a knucklehead. Self knew it. Self took a known quantity, and brought him back. Self knew Vick could not be relied upon. Self did this with his eyes wide open. Vick, sure, he’s responsible for his behavior. But Self is responsible for the team. When Vick does something (we assume) that we could easily anticipate (a known, known), who’s to blame?
If I park my car under a power line with birds on the line, who’s fault is it that I need a car wash? Not the birds. Birds poop on cars. We know why Self brought him back – we needed Vick after striking out on others. (Again, we can’t be 100%, totally, unequivocally, without a shadow of a doubt, sure). It was a pragmatic move by Self that failed. I was completely in favor of bringing Vick back, as were many here and elsewhere. Sometimes the roll of the dice is worth it, sometimes not. I’d argue it was – we lose a few games early without Vick. And if Vick allowed a lesson to be taught to the young guys, fine. I also thought it was nice to give Vick the second chance.
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@HighEliteMajor I don’t take things as seriously as a lot of folks on here - i was just mostly vomiting words. It made me feel better. Have a nice day.
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@nuleafjhawk Ok, you too.
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@HighEliteMajor Actually, I should apologize. I can see where most people (almost everyone) would interpret that negatively. So - I’ll try to be more careful wording my frustrations.
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@HighEliteMajor Since you keep bringing up the legal system, let’s do that now. If this were a legal case, I would still have reasonable doubt as to Vick breaking his agreement with Self to come back to team. The reason being is the evidence is circumstantial at best. That leaves me with reasonable doubt because nobody has been able to prove beyond a reasonable doubt that Vick violated his agreement with Self.
Since you also like to use Naadir Tharpe on a regular basis, let’s look at that evidence as well. The story we were given was that his kid needed medical treatment and he was going to transfer closer to home after he left KU. We were never told the specific medical need and if it required Tharpe to pay because his kid didn’t have insurance. If that’s the case, then Tharpe going pro instead to earn some money and get his kid some insurance is a logical step for Tharpe instead of delaying a pro career by a year or two and amassing a lot of debt for a medical issue.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I agree … we’re not sending anyone to jail. Of course, I assume you realize (or maybe not) that you can convict a person of a crime based solely on circumstantial evidence. But you’re confusing topics. You were first, above, referring to Self’s comments being related to Vick (which I was responding to), and now you’re referring to “reasonable doubt that Vick violated his agreement with Self.” Different items. Pick one.
Try this, two civil court standards of proof – 1) the preponderance of evidence, and 2) clear and convincing evidence. The latter more stringent, perhaps between #1 and beyond a reasonable doubt. Most every civil case utilizes “the preponderance of evidence.” Akin to “more likely than not.”
Of course, in a civil proceeding, a lawyer can call Self and/or Vick to the stand, under oath. Vick’s mom, too.
So you truly don’t think Tharpe was forced out? Hmmmm.
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I think this ends up at 16-10.
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@BShark mercy killing.
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@FarmerJayhawk I can’t help but ponder the record with Doke.
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3 losses
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Four losses at most. 2 losses with Dok, DeSousa and good Vick.
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No identity is the issue. Lost Dok and DeSoussa, so the post heavy high low went to the scrap heap. No one can hit a three with consistency so the 4 guard lineup looks like crap.
The only constants are Garrett is the best defender and Dotson makes the team go. Everyone else is wildly inconsistent.
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dylans said:
No identity is the issue. Lost Dok and DeSoussa, so the post heavy high low went to the scrap heap. No one can hit a three with consistency so the 4 guard lineup looks like crap.
The only constants are Garrett is the best defender and Dotson makes the team go. Everyone else is wildly inconsistent.
Sounds like a common issue for a team with a bunch of players in their first year playing for a program.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 but not for the preseason #1 team.
It’s been a weird year. The Sr leader
made the team better by leaving.The offense changed completely at least 3 times.
The leading scorer can’t be relied upon to score when needed.
The best defender can’t make a shot to save his life.
The top 10 recruit is more dud than stud for reasons unknown.
Weird year. It would be a tough group to coach perfectly with all the moving parts.
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@dylans The offense changed twice. Once after Doke’s injury and then after Garrett’s injury.
Having 7 first year players definitely doesn’t help anything in regards to consistency with a team.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 4 guard last year, so new system to start this year would be the other full system reset I’m referring to. It’s just never been stable is my point.
