Ok lets see what I can hear
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However, if KU does open up whose to say that a certain coach from the SEC wouldn’t take his place? He’s coached here, has insinuated KU is the only other place he would love to coach, met his wife here and it certainly wouldn’t be a drop off in brand and recognition. Just sayin
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
However, if KU does open up whose to say that a certain coach from the SEC wouldn’t take his place? He’s coached here, has insinuated KU is the only other place he would love to coach, met his wife here and it certainly wouldn’t be a drop off in brand and recognition. Just sayin
I hope that never happens.
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@Gunman got a good reason why? I’m sure their fans have enjoyed the final 4s. The last time we played in a final 4 we lost to arguably the best college team of all time… A team recruited and coached by the mystery man we are speaking of.
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Don’t believe he is clean; similar to his predecessors at his current school.
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
@Gunman got a good reason why? I’m sure their fans have enjoyed the final 4s. The last time we played in a final 4 we lost to arguably the best college team of all time… A team recruited and coached by the mystery man we are speaking of.
And l’m sure a lot of their fans have enjoyed the success of program and don’t care how it was accomplished.
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@Gunman that’s a nock that doesn’t have any concrete proof. The schools he cheated at were lower teir and he needed an edge for recruiting over much higher quality programs. At Kentucky he doesn’t have that problem and has a track record of successful pros to prove his system works and is effective year in and year out.
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Winning is never boring
The fear I have with Self leaving is the fact that SZ is in charge of finding his replacement.
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@Blown Self needs to outlast SZ.
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@BShark if Beaty doesn’t turn it around, Self definitely will outlast him.
I’m a firm believer we have Self for 2-3 more years and that will be it.
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When you hire a coach at KU, you should be trying to identify a guy that could be a HOF coach, if things go right for him.
You are looking for a guy that can for guys like LB, Roy and Self, guys that can get the players to Lawrence, coach them up, and win 80% or more.
What separates LB, Roy and Self from Dick Harp and Ted Owens?
Its not Xs and Os. Its not work ethic. Its not self-confidence.
LB, Roy and Self each had the intangibles of charisma, hardness, insight about who could play (and who could not), cunning about winning, master psychologists, and each were great strategists (on cutting edge of where basketball could go next, and cleverer than all the rats in recruiting trying to compromise them. These intangibles add up to basketball genius and are hard to recognize unless you have seen them up close before.
HOF fame coaches do it each their own way. Each one is remarkably unique. They learn from and steal from all manner of coaches, even each other, but they are just 100% originals as human beings. One Allen. One Rupp. One Wooden. One Smith. One Knight. One Crum. One Sutton. One LB. One K. One Roy. One Pitino. One Donovan. One Self. No copies. Each one did it unlike any of the others. Even Roy, who was such a clone of Dean Smith for so long, finally became utterly unique when he finally began innovating the running game the last couple years at KU and then he left the Dean Program at UNC.
At the same time, uniqueness is NOT enough. Each unique Hall of Fame has to have the other intangibles, or they wind up as also rans.
Shaka Smart is unique, and smart, and has some charism and confidence, and he can get guys to play hard, but he is a mediocre strategist, an inflexible thinker, and clearly just does not really deeply understand the puzzle parts of a team and who impact with and build around, and who to mask.
Brown wasn’t Allen. Williams wasn’t Brown. Self wasn’t Williams.
Looking at Brown, Williams, and Self, each one made one want another coach that played it the way he did, and such a coach was never around. Even when you can find one that is remarkably similar in approach to the last great one, conditions have usually changed and so, while coming to KU means the guy will get some better than average players to coach, if he can recruit a lick, the problem is, he will not optimize aping the last coach, because the game has moved on.
You have to find guys with the intangibles that can get players.
You can’t worry about whether they play a game similar to the last great coach.
They probably won’t.
The game has changed and they have already, if they are the kind of coach we need, will be on the cutting edge of the way the game can go under contemporary constraints.
I actually haven’t watch Tony Bennett closely.
But he has the intangibles and he is winning while he is learning.
He comes from a basketball coach, his father.
He has made a number of programs play winning basketball.
He is winning in a tough conference of 16 teams. Danny Manning is not doing it, and Danny knows a ton about basketball. But Tony Bennett is doing it. He’s doing it against two Hall of Famers in Williams and K.
No, I don’t like his brand of ball much.
But KU is not about playing a brand of ball we already know we like.
KU is about playing the next brand of ball that can win 80% of the games, win conference titles and play for national championships.
Tony Bennett would be a terrific hire.
And I would learn to appreciate this new kind of ball he coaches, same as I did with LB, Roy and Bill.
HOF coaches always take the game to a place no one else has taken it to before.
That is the kind of coach KU needs, when Bill retires, or moves on.
No one but a hall of fame coach should ever follow a retiring half of fame coach. The expectations are too brutal, unless you know where to take basketball next…and take it there.
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What do these coaches have in common?
John Chaney, Jim Boeheim, Rick Pitino, Jerry Tarkenian, Nolan Richardson, John Calipari, Tom Izzo.
All of the HOF coaches who I would not want to coach at KU.
My preferred coach would be Brad Stevens but I am not sure he would leave the Celtics. Next, Archie Miller, best of the younger generation of coaches but he might want leave his mark at Indiana as having revived the program and brought it back to elite status. Then, Tony Bennett, runs a clean and excellent program at Virginia with non-elite players, he would likely have a more active game style of play with the players he could recruit at KU.
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jaybate 1.0 says: What separates LB, Roy and Self from Dick Harp and Ted Owens?
As was stated in another thread, all these coaches inherited quality players. All these coaches had some successful seasons.
Basketball changed during Harp and Owens times at KU. Money changed basketball as it does to all most everything in life. It became unexceptable to have a down year. You weren’t bringing in two froshmen every year to replace two graduating seniors. You had to be prepared for the unexpected; injuries, transfers, suspensions,etc. Scholarships were four year offers coming from Harp and Owens to high school graduates. Today you are offered a scholarship for as long as you are benefitual to the program, or someone more benefitual becomes available.
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I personally don’t think Bennett would be my choice. I want to see more from him before I change my thought there. More, meaning tournament success and more consistent recruiting.
He’s recruited decent overall. 2016 was a banner class with 4 Top 100 kids. But the last two classes 14 & 11th in the ACC out of 15 won’t cut it. I know he recruits for his system and his style of play isn’t for everyone which I think would be a major no-no at Kansas.
I haven’t found a coach currently I think is worthy of stepping in after Self. I’m looking for the young coach that has everything we are looking for from recruiting, x’s & o’s, character, integrity and on-court success. I don’t see it out there right now. I’ve set the bar high and rightfully so.
I think Jay Wright would be the best hire of those out there. Great offensive and defensive mind, recruits well, character, success. He’s the one but he’s not getting younger
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@BeddieKU23 Also would Jay leave Villanova? I’m not sure he would.
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I think Bennett has all the intangibles that the coaching position at KU requires, as others have mentioned. The only thing he lacks is final fours. If he had, let’s say two or three final fours, would anyone doubt that he is the right guy? I wouldn’t. With Hunter out, who knows how they will fare, especially in a loaded region.
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Also would Jay leave Villanova? I’m not sure he would.
Maybe not now that he’s got Nova on another level.
If Self retired after this year he would be my first and only call until we got him though.
He’s only making 2.5 million and KU can offer him a lot more then that to leave. At 56 you can get 10+ years from him until another big-time coach comes around or has established himself.
A coach I think could be a possibility would be Chris Holtmann from Ohio St. Recruiting well at OSU so far, good defensive coach and from what I’ve seen checks some of the boxes. Need to see a lot more but I have him on the very short list of guys who even check a box.
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@BeddieKU23 Could Nova up his contract? No idea about their financials.
Holtmann is definitely up and coming. Not super young but not old either. Has done well at every stop so far.
@Blown I believe thinks Self is only around 3 more years. Idk about that, I think him taking the Team USA youth position kind of reconfirms his commitment not only to basketball but to this level. We will see. I hope we have Self around for another 10+ years.
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They probably could up his contract. I’m surprised he’s not payed more given the NC and the success he’s having every year now. I doubt however they could compete with say $4 million a year though and that would still give KU room even matching Self’s current pay. All hypothetical of course.
Holtmann, yeah 46 but has done well at every stop. Big turnaround in year 1 at Ohio St. We’ll see how they do in round 1. Bates-Diop became a different animal under him this year which you like to see. A former Top 30 prospect who flourishes with the right coach
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In what order do you see these three coaches retiring? Coach K, Self, and Roy.
If Self is 3rd amongst those three, the other two schools will get first pick at the upcoming coach options and i bet Bennett gets snagged up before the KU opening is available.
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Coach K and Williams have ongoing health issues and Coach K is one surgery away from retirement but he will probably stick around to torture college basketball and until he find a suitable replacement from among Duke alumni and I don’t see anyone stepping up any time soon; Jeff Capel is just not it and I see Jon Scheyer as a better option but still a few years away. Roy Williams would have been gone if the grades investigation went a different way but his health is a serious issue and I see him also actively trying to find a suitable replacement. I don’t believe either coach will be around in 5 years.
Coach Self realistically can go for another 10 years and seems happy at KU and I don’t see him leaving until the streaks is broken. He seem heavier than i remember and could lose a few pounds; maybe he can get Hudy to set up a exercise/diet regime for him.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Coach K and Williams have ongoing health issues and Coach K is one surgery away from retirement but he will probably stick around to torture college basketball and until he find a suitable replacement from among Duke alumni and I don’t see anyone stepping up any time soon; Jeff Capel is juts not it and I see Jon Scheyer as a better option but still a few years away. Roy Williams would have been gone if the grades investigation went a different way but his health is a serious issue and I see him also actively trying to find a suitable replacement. Idon’t believe either coach will be around in 5 years.
Coach Self realistically can go for another 10 years and seems happy at KU and I don’t see him leaving until the streaks is broken. He seem heavier than i remember and could lose a few pounds; maybe he can get Hudy to set up a exercise/diet regime for him.
Great point about the streak. I highly doubt he leaves within the next five years if the streak is still intact.
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I saw Deandre Hunter on campus here at UVA yesterday; he and I are playing the same amount of basketball today
. May he recover soon.Tony Bennett is pretty beloved around these parts, I have not doubt if he were the coach at KU that he would be embraced, if for no other fact than he would be the coach at KU and we tend to treat our own quite nicely. Dear lord if Tony had KU recruits to run his defense we would see UVA getting 4-5 stops in a row, instead of 2-3. It’s exciting watching the other team deflate and start to implode.
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From a talent perspective, I’d take Bennett in a heartbeat, but if I were Zenger I’d want answers to these 2 questions to determine fit (by asking Bennett directly, and some investigation and soul searching):
- When you come to Kansas, will you be willing to recruit OAD type talent? Meaning, time and effort recruiting, and the outcomes from having OAD type players.
- When you come to Kansas, will you be willing to embrace the 3 ball (UVA 267th in 3pt attempts, 29th in 3pt % this year)?
I’m not saying that these answers are knockout questions if the answer is no. But I’d like to consider extensively where he stands on these two things.
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@BeddieKU23 Would we ever think about taking a former player - bringing back here? - I don’t know just asking. - Say Danny - - or Turgeon? - would we ever consider taking that risk? - - - I think Danny might be able to do ok here - -not sure about Mark strong KU ties - -just asking - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@approxinfinity So basically you’d want Tony Bennett to abandon what got him to the position he’s in today?
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
@Gunman got a good reason why? I’m sure their fans have enjoyed the final 4s. The last time we played in a final 4 we lost to arguably the best college team of all time… A team recruited and coached by the mystery man we are speaking of.
Not really a mystery man… more like “He whose name shall not be spoken.”
Voldemort.
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SkinnyKansasDude said:
@Gunman that’s a nock that doesn’t have any concrete proof. The schools he cheated at were lower teir and he needed an edge for recruiting over much higher quality programs. At Kentucky he doesn’t have that problem and has a track record of successful pros to prove his system works and is effective year in and year out.
Did Coach Self use those tactics when he first started coaching?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Those are two of the more pivotal questions I believe. I did not say I want him to abandon his approach; I don’t, but I think the answers to those two questions need to be heavily considered, and I think that he needs to be flexible, as Self has been flexible.
For the sake of discussion, how successful do you think Self would have been if he didn’t recruit OADs at Kansas, and didn’t embrace the 3 ball?
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@jayballer73 I do not think either of those have accomplished enough to make them a candidate. And I don’t give a rip about whether someone is an alum or not. Self’s ties were one year as a grad assistant under LB. Roy had no direct connection…only the indirect through Smith. Get the best guy and don’t give any additional weight to an alum. JMO.
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I would run hard from Tony Bennett … like the other way. And I wouldn’t even consider hiring him. The slug it out style of play seems to have a lower ceiling most of the time. So once we get past that –
Can a guy recruit elite talent, #1. Not a slew of OADs, but elite, top 75 talent, year in, year out.
#2 is he a leader?
#3, can he coach … as in, does he make the sum of the parts better?
#4, is he someone we can be proud of?
The fact is, our next hire will be speculative. We won’t get the stars to align on anyone. Even a guy like Brad Stevens has never really recruited elite talent.
I know this is a bit out there, but I really like Chris Beard at TT. Very impressive.
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Sure hope we do not have to worry about this for 10+ years.
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What?
No Archie Miller advocacy?
Archie could bring Stumpy in to recruit.
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@approxinfinity I would argue that Self’s most successful teams were ones that largely played through the post and utilized the high-low on a very regular basis and weren’t dependent upon the 3 ball to win games.
I would also say that Tony Bennett’s style likely wouldn’t attract many OAD types because his style of play isn’t attractive to OAD caliber players.
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If Beard continues what he’s doing he’s got a chance for a big job down the road. I think he’s waiting for the Texas job to open up though personally.
I mentioned Chris Holtmann from Ohio St. Took over the job at Butler and parlayed that into the Ohio St job. Gets two Top 100 prospects in his first year (1 stayed committed, 1 he signed late), two more Top 100 prospects in 2018. He signed kids from California, Jersey & Texas which is also important to look at with recruiting, can someone recruit nationally. Defensive minded coach who turned around a bad Ohio St team in 1 year.
The person that fits the criteria you laid out was Jay Wright in my opinion. Makes a living recruiting outside the OAD range. Brunson was a 5 star recruit and could be named POY. Bridges was a Top 100 kid and could be a lottery pick in this years draft. He recruits kids with no ego and maximizes talent as well as anyone. Not only that he flat out out-coached Self the last time they faced in a pretty important game…
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Let’s hope Zenger is not the one in charge of selecting the next basketball coach.
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jayballer73 said:
@BeddieKU23 Would we ever think about taking a former player - bringing back here? - I don’t know just asking. - Say Danny - - or Turgeon? - would we ever consider taking that risk? - - - I think Danny might be able to do ok here - -not sure about Mark strong KU ties - -just asking - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Ask UConn how it worked out for them…
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I think it will be someone not even mentioned here, in about 10 years.
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Nice thread. I think there’s an assistant out there who would fill in nicely, just like Roy did. Got to find him though first. I have no clue who.
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jayballer73 said:
@BeddieKU23 Would we ever think about taking a former player - bringing back here? - I don’t know just asking. - Say Danny - - or Turgeon? - would we ever consider taking that risk? - - - I think Danny might be able to do ok here - -not sure about Mark strong KU ties - -just asking - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Danny is really struggling at Wake. He can get talent but he’s really struggled everywhere else. Turgeon has had some good years. I would say neither has done enough. Haase had a tough year at Stanford but will have a team full of his kids next season.
One name we really haven’t thought of is our own assistants. Howard is young, recruiting very well recently and the players seem to really like and relate to him. Just a thought…
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mayjay said:
I think it will be someone not even mentioned here, in about 10 years.
10 or more yep, that’s what I hope too.
