Sam Cunliffe: MIA
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I think it is funny. In 1988 we had Chris Piper as one of our forwards. Averaged 3.9 for career, but no one remembers that. In his 1st two years, he averaged under 10 mins a game and had minimal stats. But for 1988 I remember, with the rosy glasses of retrovision, a major contributor as one of the “Miracles”.
And he did have a lot to do with that tournament. Remember, we had lost Archie Marshall who was by far the better athlete. Despite rather journeyman stats before and overall, Piper averaged over 7 pts and 6.9 rebounds in 6 games.
Back then, though, with 4 years as the standard, bench players in their 2nd year were not expected to be major contributors. A guy like Lightfoot was expected to be pretty much unseen as a freshman, develop his game as a sophomore, and become a solid part of the rotation as a junior. Hopefully, become a starter as a senior.
My, how impatient we have become. Lightfoot is precisely where he should be if we all hadn’t had our expectations change due to players leaving after 1, 2, or 3 years. The high level players we get now are able to do that, and we want their contributions accelerated as well. But to expect the same prodigious performances of everybody is absurd–“program players” like Mitch are the ones you need to fill those other 10 or 11 seats. And when given time to develop, yeah, they can be integral cogs in a drive to the top.
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@drgnslayr Interested in your comment that Cunliffe can’t handle the pace of play. It’s not like this is a guy coming straight from high school, like Silvio. He was a starter as a freshman for a Power 5 school last year - well for the first half of the year. I would have thought he would have been fully acclimated to the pace of play with that experience under his belt. Just thinking that it is something else that HCBS doesn’t like about his game - enough so that he isn’t willing to give the other guards more of a breather by bringing Sam in for a couple of minutes each half or if one picks up 2 early fouls…
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justanotherfan said:
Self is in a position where he needs to give Cunliffe and De Sousa both 8-10 minutes of game action each night.
Then the question becomes, why does Self not play Cunliffe at all in some games?
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justanotherfan said:
Lightfoot is not ideal, but without Preston, he was the only option, and to his credit he stepped up. But this is where De Sousa can help the most. Lightfoot is a limited player at this point in his career. So is De Sousa. However, if Self can rotate them in the lineup well, neither Silvio or Mitch will have their weaknesses exposed for extended periods. In effect, their individual limitations can help disguise each other’s limits in the long run.
I’m pleasantly surprised with Mitch’s defense.
And yes he has had to step up. Just such a weird situation that he might go from needed contributor to deep bench next season. Or he could invoke another Jamari situation. When you have a full compliment of players (as KU should next year) there are too many scenarios to count.
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He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.
Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.
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Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don’t think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.
As for why Self doesn’t play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He’s the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I’m not even sure that’s a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.
and counting…
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JayHawkFanToo said:
He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.
Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.
I’m completely on Self’s side with this one. I don’t usually disagree with Self too often, Jamari was a tough one though…
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justanotherfan said:
Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don’t think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.
As for why Self doesn’t play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He’s the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I’m not even sure that’s a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.
I think it’s going to be tough for Mitch to ever start, but definitely he looks like he can be a valuable contributor going forward. And it’s not that he isn’t a good player. It’s that next year if Doke is back he is behind Doke, Dedric and KJ immediately on the depth chart (the Lawsons smoke him in practice last I heard and I know it is just practice but we also have full seasons of the Lawsons playing D1 ball to look at). Quite possibly Silvio as well, depending on his development. Silvio definitely has more tools and more of a D1 body, but needs to develop mentally. I think Mitch will firmly be ahead of McCormack though. A lot will depend on who stays after next season and how 2019 recruiting goes. KU is targeting a lot of players at Mitch’s position in 2019. NBA level players like Matt Hurt. Of course, KU doesn’t always land them, injuries and other stuff happens. That’s how you end up with Landen Lucas starting, so it’s not entirely out of the question for Mitch, just difficult.
One thing I will note is that if Mitch can keep improving his jump shot, that makes him very valuable going forward.
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Coach Self is not the only one that prefers a primary 8 man rotation by the time conference plays starts. I have heard several other coaches including Jay Wright and, if I recall correctly Coach K, say the same thing.
Remember when UK had so many good players that Calipari started the platoon system? After a few games he called it a failure and went back to a traditional primary 8 man rotation which appears to be the ideal number to develop game time/court chemistry.
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8 is a pretty good number. It lets you play your best players more minutes (and there is generally some amount of separation there) while also being able to rest them.
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Next year we go back to being “Big Man U.”
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Yes… Sam has experience. But sitting on the bench has given him some rust.
If he had received all the PT that Mitch has received, we would see a different player.
By the way, I don’t really have a great feel for Sam’s game yet. I know I like his attitude… a lot!
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Considering our thin bench and the large number of minutes being played by our guards, I was expecting Cunliffe to get more minutes.
I see several benefits, give some breathing room to other guards, give him PT to polish his game for down the stretch, provide more competition etc. While Garrett is good on D and rebounds he is a big liability on Offense. Self can give some of Garett’s minutes to Sam. It will only benefit him and KU.
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Cunliffe appears to be an athletic wing player and I just don’t see him playing guard much.
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I have no issue with the 8 man rotation. My issue is more that when you are integrating a new player like Cunliffe, you need to give him more run than this, particularly when he didn’t have the opportunity in non-con because he was a transfer. If you’re going to play him this sparingly, it may have been worth more to the program to redshirt him this year with the intent of having him as a rotation player next year.
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@justanotherfan Self couldn’t red shirt him. Players have 5 years to play 4 in normal circumstances. Injuries are the one thing that can grant a player a 6th year of eligibility. Transferring counts against that 5 year clock and works as a red shirt. Cunliffe played 1 semester at ASU, transferred to KU, sat out for 1 academic year per NCAA rules, and is now eligible to play. At the conclusion of this season, he will have been in college for 2 years and played the equivalent of 1 year. He is for all intents and purposes a red shirt freshman right now. After this year, he will have 3 years to play 3 years.
It’s the same situation as Jeff Witney who played 3.5 years at KU. Cunliffe also play 3.5 years when he’s done here.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, but if he sat this entire season, he’d have three full seasons left. Five to play four. His freshman season at ASU, this season at KU, then three more. The key is he would only play in four academic years – his first, third, fourth and fifth. That’s my interpretation. Perhaps I’m subject to correction there. We, I thought, discussed that with CF a few years back.
I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what’s his role? Personally, I’d love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don’t get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.
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@Gunman You know, it might. But I think that we are in a different age now with coach Self – the Era of Great Tolerance. Heck, he yanked Sam for a bad foul, and got him right back in. Self has softened. He seems to accept mistakes much better. But being safe and not throwing up a “brick” as one of Garrett’s shots was correctly referred to last game, is the safer path.
Attacking the hoop, though, seems to be available to Garrett. I counted at least 6 missed opportunities from him last game. A big number. On one, his defender was recovering back and he had almost the entire half of the floor. He may not have gotten to the hoop, but he could have at a minimum made the attempt and I’m sure a dish opportunity would present on some, too.
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Self holds players out of games without explanation, because of 1 or more of the following:
1.) undisclosed injury;
2.) bad match-up;
3.) desire to minimize turnovers;
4.) undisclosed disciplinary issue;
5.) a change in rotation players.
Self told us minutes for perimeter players would decline, if either, or both, Da Sousa and Preston started playing.
Cunliffe could be nursing an injury, but I doubt Cunliffe is being punished for bad play, or disciplinary issues. He was just lowest on the depth chart, and so Self sat him when Da Sousa showed up. Da Sousa playing meant no minutes when Self had to play 5 perimeter players. And He could even play Mitch at 4 some. This takes away the need for Cunliffe to give breathers to 4 or 5 small small positions.
I forgot the accordion affect of Da Sousa arriving, when I indicated Cunliffe might get 8 minutes.
Cunliffe could see some action vs Baylor if leads permit, so Self can keep his starters fresh for OU.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m looking at Jeff Withey’s situation for the comparison. Withey came here after a semester at Arizona, sat out a year and had 3.5 years of eligibility left when he became eligible at KU.
I fail to see how Cunliffe is in a different situation than Withey. Cunliffe transferred after a semester at ASU, sat out a year, so why would he not also have 3.5 years left as well?
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I think as Self said when Silvio got cleared that the guards minutes would decrease more than the Mitch or Dokes is some of the reason. Self also stated when he was able to play that he was a projected and would be in the program for a few years before being a major guy.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what’s his role? Personally, I’d love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don’t get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.
5th might be generous even. I don’t think he passes Garrett but stranger things have happened.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you’re right. He’d have a dangling semester out there if not. Old(er) guy brain cramp. I think I was wrong with CF too.
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He is in fact listed as a RS FR. That changes things. I think he can definitely contribute as a SR now. For some reason I wasn’t thinking he had that much eligibility left either. I blame the NCAA for being oftentimes convoluted.
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@jaybate-1.0 adding bad body language on the bench
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Unfortunately, Cunliffe missed the window of opportunity that is the schedule before conference when coaches experiment with rotations. Once conference play starts,. the rotation is pretty much set and players are expected to produce. De Sousa is perhaps the exception since there is an immediate need with bigs but the team has plenty of experienced players at the wing so his current value is limited.
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Self has a long history of sitting guys several games, even half a season, and then giving them unexpected tries.
The chances are high we will see Cunliffe again unexpectedly when everyone is certain he will never play again.
I will add though that Self has cryo-iced guys, after he has either signed a better player for next year, or decided some one he thought was leaving is coming back.
So: maybe Malik has decided to come back, or Self has not announced some new transfer or decommit.
It’s precarious at the bottom of Self’s scholarship depth chart, for sure.
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Also Self is a cook seasoning a stew. He can at any moment decide the stew needs something else, even if only for a few minutes each game, and give someone else a shot at being the new herb. He also doesn’t hesitate to change his mind back, if it doesn’t improve the taste.
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@jaybate-1.0 I think Sam will get more opportunities. WV is a bad match up for a guy Self doesn’t have trust in yet. Silvio got minutes with Doke in foul trouble and he wasn’t being asked to help break the press. Apples & Oranges I think.
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Totally agree and I am pretty confident he would not have played dasousa If he had not had to.
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My issue with the Cunliffe thing is that right now, by yanking his minutes around, you may be damaging his confidence for later on. Right now, he feels like if he makes a mistake, he’s going to get pulled. As a result, he’s thinking rather than playing free. That’s a tough habit to break. You don’t want to put the idea in his head that the coaching staff doesn’t have confidence in him.
You don’t want an athletic shooter like Cunliffe gun shy, because that may hurt his ability to contribute next year. That’s why I say hold him out. It’s more about the mental side of things than eligibility. If you aren’t going to play him, tell him he’s not going to play, but that you’re expecting him to be in the rotation as a contributor next season. Don’t jerk his minutes around this season because he may start changing his game without even realizing to avoid the quick hook, and once that aggressive edge is gone, it’s hard to get back.
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@justanotherfan Rewind a few years ago and I was saying the same thing about Releford, EJ, Selby, White, Diallo, Adams, Greene, et. al. You have to let a guy settle in, be comfortable, relax a bit, and just play. Confidence is key. Game experience is invaluable. I think you’re right. I like your suggestion of just holding him out – the roller coaster does him no good. If he’s not Self’s choice, so be it … use him only if absolutely necessary, or in scrub time.
One thing I will say, though, is that I do think Self has dialed it back on the quick hook. Cunliffe got one of the epic quick hooks vs. KSU. One, quick/silly/out of control foul, and immediately out. Haven’t seen too many of those this season (in comparison to past years). The most epic hook I can recall was Anrio Adams – in the game, excited, inbounds to Adams, dribbles off his foot out of bounds, turnover, and he’s out. Total game time, 3 seconds. Beautiful. No cereal eating on that one.
The difference is, Self reinserted Cunliffe pretty quickly. Adams, not so lucky. Where is that guy, anyway?
On the dialing it back thing, Self really seems to be a shadow of his former self (pun intended). But the Cunliffe yank was a clear reminder of seasons’ past.
I like Cunliffe, but I’m not on his bandwagon for increased PT because I don’t think he’s more talented than the guys we’re playing. Meaning, I don’t see his upside this season as outstripping the guys Self is playing right now.
Picking a scab – imagine that Reed and Morningstar were both injured and could not play beginning January 1, 2011. And imagine the national championship trophy sitting in KU’s trophy case. Just imagine.
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@HighEliteMajor What’s your take on giving some of Marcus G minutes to Sam C?
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@HighEliteMajor I agree, it seems Self has dialed back the quick hook a bit this year, thankfully. Though Cunliffe might think otherwise.
Not agreeing as much on not seeing Cunliffe having anything over Garrett or Malik. Those two have had a lot of game minutes to show their stuff (and I’ve not been impressed with what I’ve seen vs minutes given). Cunliffe hasn’t had a tenth of those minutes to shine - or to fail. Of course, as mentioned before, I’m not the Hall of Fame coach who sees them all in practice every day, so I could very well be completely wrong. Regardless, practice and game minutes aren’t the same, and I’d sure like to see the kid get at least 15 unyanked minutes just once to prove himself. Sure doesn’t seem like it would be that big of a dangerous step down in quality over the other two that it would actually change the outcome of a game where the matchups looked okay for doing this.
Lastly, my memory aint what it used to be and I’m hazy about remembering the Reed/Morningstar thing. Are you saying if we played them less and played Selby and __________ more and we’d have won an NC? Not disagreeing, just can’t remember.
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IMO, the only reason Sammy isn’t playing much lately is because we have another Big! That’s it. We got Silvio cleared and now we have post depth…sorta. When we didn’t have him, our guards were our team. Plus Dok of course. And, no I’m not belittling Mitch. But we needed another body and Sam was the only one available. Point blank.
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Since Sam became eligible, other than the Stanford game when he played 9 minutes, KU has not had a game where it was far ahead enough to experiment. Unless KU gets an easy game in the future, I don’t see Sam getting a lot of playing time since winning games is now priority one.
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@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?
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@StLJhawk On Cunliffe, I don’t see more upside this season. Meaning, I think the better gamble is on Garrett and Newman to be better in March. But I’m not certain by any means.
Now, in 2011, I was certain. If we didn’t have either Reed or Morningstar, I think the EJ, Selby, Releford combo would have been better. EJ proved his worth in huge games playing the 2 spot in 2011/2012. He was a pure 2 (that I mistook as a possible 1). In hindsight, he should have started at the 2 from day one and been left alone. And if he and Selby were simply played instead of sitting behind Brady and Tyrel, I will go to my grave believing we win the title. Releford hurt his ankle, So was less available. But we all saw him perform the next year as well. He and EJ, as a combo, were just better. Selby needed major PT. He was a talent that needed some patience. Self had his security blankets that were safe. That reliance on safety ended up being fatal.
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@HighEliteMajor My issue with EJ was that he was always an incredibly streaky player, even at his best in 2011-12. Selby was also injured most of the season after he got eligible. Selby was never going to approach his ceiling in year 1 at Kansas because of his injury and was not better than Morningstar or Reed after his injury.
Morningstar and Reed may not have had the ceiling that EJ or Selby had, but they were much more consistent which is what that group needed more in the long term with Tyshawn taking over the full time PG duties and being inconsistent at best at that point as a PG.
In a different universe with Selby not getting injured, he possibly takes the lead guard role from Taylor, but we’ll never know because of that injury to Selby.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 We lost to VCU. Brady/Reed were a combined 2-16. That entire season I predicted exactly what happened. I whined and complained about Morningstar constantly. I suggested that in high leverage games, those lower talent guys would cost us. Eerily similar to our Landen Lucas experiences. We can make all the arguments we want about those three guys, but in our last games of the season (which of course by default become the most important) they were major weak links. Selby played in every game he was eligible, except in early February. The injury was done. Self abandoned him, in favor of the low talent duo. When you look at his games when he played over 20 minutes, together, it showed his worth. EJ/Selby all day over Brady/Reed. All day.
All both of them needed was playing time.
Releford was clearly better. He hurt his ankle, but when he got back, he was better too. Had an excellent game against MU in February.
Self blew it 2011. Poor personnel decisions. Of course, we might not have been in the Elite 8 vs. VCU, in that precise spot should another path have been chosen. But the universe of possibilities is too much to consider.
That’s way long ago. Just my opinion. I’ve been told a million times that I’m wrong. But I’m right. To my grave believing I’m right on that. My mind will never change.
And I don’t think Bill Self today, would make those same decisions in 2011.
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@HighEliteMajor I concur with your comments. I think Self should give some of his minutes to Sam. I feel it would bring more competition and would provide meaningful minutes to Sam to showcase his abilities and increase his confidence.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?
Garrett for Malik. (Let our other guys shoot)
Garrett with Malik. (Let Malik create)
Garret for Svi. (Let Garrett rebound)
Cunliffe isn’t that versatile.
Cunliffe sits.
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@AsadZ Which one do you think, though, Sam or Marcus, if say both got 20 minutes per game, would be the better player for this team in March? Which one is the better gamble on the minutes available?
I think Self is choosing Marcus because he brings a high end talent to the lineup defensively, something we need.
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To suggest that Reed and Morningstar were responsible for the defeat because of how they shot during a NCAA game ignores not only their other contributions but also the dismal ball handling by Kief. 8 turnovers was the killer, not missed shots.
Your argument that Selby would have taken us to the Final 4 and a trophy if better prepared (by taking more of Brady’s minutes) ignores his poor performance in the VCU game and his own poor fg shooting (37 % for the year). More tellingly, it ignores the history of some of our deepest teams or most experienced superstars who had poor performances in the our elimination games–witness Graham’s 0 for 12 in 3 pt shooting over the last two E8 games. Or our experienced team’s inability to make layups against UCLA, or the super-experienced 2003 team’s abysmal FT shooting in the final.
You have made Selby into a fantasy hero who would have taken us not only past VCU, but also through the semifinal and to the net cutting ceremony. The same guy who didn’t cut it in the NBA or the D League. All because Self didn’t replace his Big 12 1st Team Defensive Team honoree with the superstar who, given the chance, pretty much failed to demonstrate his super ability.
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@mayjay I appreciate all of that, but you weren’t around for the arguments. It was a knockout. I won. You must assume that I don’t recall much of this. My argument is not that “Selby would have taken us to the final four.” Fake news. I never argued for Selby to be the one guy to take Brady’s minutes. My argument was that EJ, Releford, and Selby were better than those two (Morningstar/Reed). In fact, I was much more on the EJ bandwagon. I argued to bench both Reed/Morningstar, and go with EJ, Releford, and Selby in place of their minutes. That by March, we’d have better players.
First, I assume that you checked and saw that the turnover margin in favor of VCU was only +1. So turnovers were a push. In fact, you would expect against VCU and their style of play the margin might have been higher.
Second, do you even know how many of Markieff’s turnovers led to points? Uh, just two. Already heard that argument. Already defeated it. Further, as I recall the topic, Markieff had 7 turnovers. The play by play showed 7 not 8. Still high, but that’s my recollection.
I said time after time during the season that playing those two would cost us. It did. What seemed apparent was that in games vs. top teams, I never suggest something is the only reason. Big, big reason in this game. Selby, EJ, and Releford were way underutilized heading into the tourney. Look at their minutes. The same things we talk about now – giving players game experience so they are comfortable and ready for the moment – were true then. If those three guys would have played all year, over Morningstar/Reed, we would have had better players. Some proof, in part, look at what we had in EJ and Releford the NCAA tourney in 2012. EJ at the 2, and Releford at the 3 were better overall players. If someone would rather have the Reed/Morningstar, more power to them. I’d kick their tails with EJ and Releford. In fact, it is interesting that both guys somehow won an Elite 8 game in 2012, and a FF game that same year.
It is pretty funny. Two guys that went 2-16 from the field were not a major component to the loss, according to you.
And then you reference pro ball – what are Reed and Morningstar doing? Nothing. It was unreal during that season how many folks were actually suggesting those guys could play pro, even NBA. I was the bad guy because I pointed out the complete absurdity.
Anyway, I grant you that you could be right. Heck, we could have lost before the Elite 8 if the path were different after playing those three. But it matters little what anyone says to me on this topic. I’m a rock head and not changing my mind.
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You make many solid points.
I have long been a Brady advocate.
HEM has long found him lacking.
Selby?
Selby started late, briefly played explosively early, then spent much of his time playing in a boot, then came back some. Selby played a wing to get all our best players on the floor at the same time. He was a good, green, slightly TO prone college player, when healthy who would have developed into an all conference, and maybe an all American had he opted for 2-3 year career. But his mother and Carmelo-related mentor were determined to cash in early. Self had to marginalize him once the injury limited him and he would not commit to another season. He just did not bring enough value to the program to give him the keys and keep other player development for that and the following season from happening. And, in the end, Self’s judgement was vindicated, because Selby never did excel at the next level. Like so many guys with a lot of athleticism at 6-3 and under, he just wasn’t the perfectionist floor gamer and lock down defender, or the high percentage 3pt shooter he would have had to be to become either another Jason Kidd (his only viable path) or another Vinnie Microwave Johnson. Selby had superstar hype with 5 star athleticism and 3-4 star skills. Selby committed to Bruce at UTenn, before Bruce was exposed and imploded. That’s really all you need to know about Selby. The mentor appArrently knew the hype game and got him his 5 stars and 1 rank; then fed him to schlocky, hustling Bruce. He and Mom let the mentor take them for a ride from the start. They apparently ran to Self and KU for PR cover, when Bruce and his gun happy, joy riding program couldn’t deliver the incentives.
I used to think: Josh coulda been uh contenduh!
But since Selby washed out in the L so quickly, I have come to believe his mentor saw the same holes in Josh’s game Self did and decided it was better to take an early score, at 49th in the draft, rather than wait for a 6-2 NBA long-career, long shot to develop under Self.
After all the hype, here is who Josh Selby really was.
2011–2013 Memphis Grizzlies 2012 →Reno Bighorns 2013 Canton Charge 2013 Maine Red Claws 2013 Qingdao Eagles 2014 Cedevita Zagreb 2014–2015 Bnei Herzliya 2015–2016 Socar Petkim 2017 Maccabi Kiryat Gat 2017–present Incheon Elephants
He was like many 4-5 year KU players that went on to 10 year careers overseas. That’s who Josh Selby really was behind the hype. There was no Long career NBA player there ever.
This is NOT meant as a criticism of him. I like Selby and thought he played through courageously at KU. He probably would have lasted a few years longer in L, if he had stayed 2 more years at KU, but someone apparently ran the numbers and said the present worth of three years now getting paid, is greater than what you would get 3 years later with only a slightly longer shelf life in the L. Selby, like Keith Langford, has done just fine.
But KU sure could have used him another couple years!!!
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FWIW, I believe that Selby had the talent to play in the NBA, he was the Summer League MVP. His problems were more mental and off the court not his lack of basketball talent. At KU I remember him as being “selfish” and not in a Coach Self follower kind of way.
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2011 is the sorest of sore subjects for me.
@jaybate-1-0 You said, “I have long been a Brady advocate. HEM has long found him lacking.”
If there is another topic that created more words of debate between the two of us, I’m struggling to recall it. Long, long ago, I think we finally agreed to disagree. Or something like that …
@JayHawkFanToo If Selby would have had one shred of sense (or a parent or parents that had any sense) he would have stayed at KU, listened, learned, and become as star. If he had done that, I bet he’s in the NBA right now.
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Yes, but it was out of that debate that emerged a new standard of civil discourse that has distinguished our online community from all others and stands still as a lonely lighthouse in the stormy internet of our time. I have been so enriched by getting to read your thoughts in the years since and so grateful for your intuitive efforts to work together to make this a more and more special sanctuary of thought and camaraderie over the ensuing years. Really, I track some of the origins of the intelligence and civility of our community to your and my reaching out to each other across our conflict and saying the neighborhood and the legacy matters more than one of us being right. I began to understand what I hoped could happen between us, and so for our beloved little community, when I was coincidentally reading about the initially stormy relationship of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. We are not weighty figures like them, but I figured if we could find peace as they did over time, it could yield the great benefit of a model for the community. I feel it has in some small way. It is not enough to agree to disagree. The trick is to agree to disagree with genuine affection and respect. No one can do it with everyone, but everyone can do it with someone, and before you know it, lots ARE doing it with many. I genuinely believe this is the key to functional republics and online communities.
I genuinely like and respect you and enjoy both the times we agree and the times we don’t.
Rock Chalk!
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I’m glad to read so much conversation about PT. It will be good practice for next year, when we all surely battle over who will get the minutes!
I know we are all complaining about not having depth this year… but at least we don’t have to watch so much talent rot away at the end of the bench!
