Sam Cunliffe: MIA
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Obviously he didn’t play tonight. The board has been having various discussions about him for a bit now. I’ve long been of the camp that I’m not sure if he ever starts for KU. It’s clear that Self doesn’t trust him this year against quality competition. I’m also just not sure how it gets better for him next year as I think he is, best case the 6th guard. He’s a hell of an end of the bench player to have but is he going to be okay with that? With the way transfer rules are he would get hammered transferring again unless he transferred down to D2 (not happening). I hope he guts it out because he is athletic and could be needed his SR year.
I know there are some people here that think he will be better and someone recently said they don’t see a difference between him and our other guards making mistakes this year. While stats can be a dangerous thing (his numbers on a baaaad ASU team made him look better than he was in some ways but the advanced numbers were pretty telling) and it’s small sample size this year he is firmly our worst guard. Behind Garrett and Newman who are both, admittedly average. I’m still not even sure Cunliffe is a net positive on the court, he has been bad at defense (worse than Clay Young statistically with a similar minutes played amount).
Interestingly enough the advanced numbers bear out that Mitch is far and away our best player on the defensive end (Garrett is the only player within spitting distance). So numbers can definitely be deceiving because I think it’s hard to account for some of Doke’s impact on that end altering shots and deterring things simply with his presence. Which isn’t to knock Mitch at all, he has been great defensively blocking shots and drawing charges.
So anyway I digress. I’m not fully sure what Self thinks of Cunliffe. He pulled him so quickly against KSU. I think there are things to build on, but he needs to learn the game of basketball and have it become second nature which doesn’t always happen.
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Cunliffe is a role player. He essentially has 6 weeks of practicing KU sets. Prior to that, he had been on scout team running everybody else’s stuff. He’ll be a decent player, probably never a starter unless it’s as a senior in 2019-2020 because he figures to be buried pretty deep next year Garrett, Grimes, KJ Lawson, and possibly Vick all playing wing minutes next year.
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@BShark sounds like you do know what self thinks to me.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark sounds like you do know what self thinks to me.
If only, then I’d know the full truth about Preston.
All we really know right now is that Self doesn’t trust him in big games.
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You called Cunliffe right, tonight for sure.
I thought he would play 8 minutes or so given the press, but either you are right that Self doesn’t trust that he can play under control, or…
KU was coughing up so many TOs, and barely able to stay in the game score wise, the first half, that Self just did not dare put him in the first half, which would have been the time to use Cunliffe to shorten the game for the starters.
I doubt Da Sousa would have seen the light of day, if Doke had not gotten fouled up when he did in the first half, and so Self had to protect Lightfoot, for the second half, too.
Self was clearly looking at the first half and thinking KU was doing a lot of good things that were not converting to points, because of a home whistle, and too many turn overs. He couldn’t do much about the home whistle, so he just decided NOT to risk anything that might make the turnover problem even worse, if he could avoid it. Hence, no Cunliffe, and no Da Sousa until he just could not afford not to with Da Sousa.
This was a seriously ballsy job of coaching by Self tonight. He really just road out the first half doing the bare minimum. He in effect said I am NOT going to make adjustments the first half that Huggins can counter during half time. He coached the first half as if KU were only down 5 instead of 10-15. I mean it was incredible that he could restrain himself from trying to help his guys get back into the game. He basically exhorted them emotionally, but didn’t give them diddledy squat in the way of adjustments until half time.
After half time, he adjusted the weave for the hand offs to occur waaaaaaaaaay outside and almost immediately; that put an end to the jamming up of the hand off that was occurring with the help from their high post and from their wings–something Huggins clearly borrowed from Squeaky two days before. Self also told the guys to get their butts up the floor so that Donate always faced 2 on 1. He was quite human after that. Also, whenever Mitch was in the second half he broke all the way to the basket off the pick and rolls, and they threw it to him over the shoulder like a quick football pass instead of a lob play. You could go on and on. Self tweaked a ton of stuff. He didn’t change sets. He just tweaked the actions. I think it was the accrued effect of WVU not knowing how to adjust in huddles that finally broke down WVU’s momentum. It wasn’t our trey shooting. That didn’t come til the stretch of the second half. And it wouldn’t have helped, if WVU hadn’t lost its focus and gotten on its heels defensively.
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Coach Self has always said he likes an 8 man rotation by the time Conference play comes along. There is a bigger need for a big so De Sousa is in and Cunliffe out.
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Its going to be really interesting to read Huggins’ quotes about the game.
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He threw his team under the bus
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They were lazy, taking 3’s
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If Garrett doesn’t play better, he might lose minutes. He’s too passive on offense when opportunities to drive are there, he’s not attacking the rim on rebounds, and he had a couple defensive lapses. He needs to step it up.
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Yup.
But he still did a few good things out there.
And to be honest, that was war out there last night.
WVU was as big, strong and intimidating with DONATE as anyone we will see and Garrett is a skinny freshman; that was arguably a new level of pressing intensity and violence for him. He got overwhelmed, but he did not break and run. Good for him.
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@HighEliteMajor If you shoot and miss as a reserve do you ever have a short leash with Bill? Could that filter in Garrett’s decisions for not pulling the trigger or driving? IMO he has a lot to offer this team.
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His offense is not quite there but his defense is very good and rebounds well as well. He averages 4.4 rpg and only Doke, Vick and Newman have better numbers, he is also second in the team to Devonte in steals withe 1.3 spg and his 0.7 tpg is the best among the rotation players.
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@Gunman last week self was getting on him for not shooting—in rhythm of the game of course! Dg was saying they were wanting him to hit those open shots
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Cunliffe’s sample size is far too small to draw any significant conclusions on right now. He has played a total of 57 minutes for KU so far. That’s basically three games worth of rotation bench play. He’s played well twice, poorly twice, and too limited to make a judgment in his other three appearances. Saying a guy was good or bad in less than 5 minutes of action is nearly impossible. They could make one good play, get pulled and you say they were good, or make one bad play, get pulled and you say they played poorly. The truth would be they made only one play (positive or negative) and didn’t get enough other action to really say one way or another how they played.
De Sousa played just 4 minutes against KSU. He broke a sweat, but you can’t say much more about his performance because it was too brief to evaluate. On the other hand, he played pretty well against WVU. He was active, got some rebounds, made a couple of heady plays. Had he only played 3 or 4 minutes, he likely doesn’t make those plays and we have another unknown performance.
Self is in a position where he needs to give Cunliffe and De Sousa both 8-10 minutes of game action each night. I think they can help in some limited roles, but playing them for only a couple of minutes a night doesn’t give them a chance to make an impact. Maybe Cunliffe misses his first shot and gets yanked (I lived through that for a season in high school - you cannot be productive if you think you will get pulled if you miss a shot). If that’s the case, he won’t even have an opportunity to be productive and this is a wasted year for him. Same with De Sousa.
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I look at it like this… Mitch was heavily criticized just one month ago. I recall reading, “if we are counting on any minutes from Mitch, we are in for a long season.”
Now we are seeing a pretty nice payoff from Mitch’s play. No… he’s not probably going to become a future NBA lottery pick. But he easily saved us one conference game already. If we are able to win #14 then it wasn’t going to happen without Mitch. Period.
Sam has a ways to go. We just have to give him his space to become the player he can become. We still are not experiencing most of his athleticism. He is still not quite up to speed with the pace of play. He is better than we have experienced so far.
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Nice post and I agree, the sample size is too small to judge. The Mitch analogy is well taken. More minutes now might well pay dividends later this year. I realize we aren’t privy to what Self sees in practice, and of course he’s the Hall of Famer and I’m a lowly board rat. But on the other hand, it’s not like Malik or Garrett (while certainly contributing) are lighting up the stat sheets either.
Again, not saying Sam is NBA material, but the potential for him to contribute Mitch-like minutes, seems reasonable to me.
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Lightfoot is not ideal, but without Preston, he was the only option, and to his credit he stepped up. But this is where De Sousa can help the most. Lightfoot is a limited player at this point in his career. So is De Sousa. However, if Self can rotate them in the lineup well, neither Silvio or Mitch will have their weaknesses exposed for extended periods. In effect, their individual limitations can help disguise each other’s limits in the long run.
This is an imperfect team. @StLJhawk is right that Sam, though limited, also could contribute. We aren’t looking for double figure scoring from Cunliffe. We need his ability to stretch the floor, handle the ball a bit, and play solid defense. If he can do that for 8-12 minutes per game, that’s a huge boost. Maybe he has a game where he hits a couple of threes and scores 10 or 12 points. That’s a bonus. The hope is that he provides steady depth.
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I think it is funny. In 1988 we had Chris Piper as one of our forwards. Averaged 3.9 for career, but no one remembers that. In his 1st two years, he averaged under 10 mins a game and had minimal stats. But for 1988 I remember, with the rosy glasses of retrovision, a major contributor as one of the “Miracles”.
And he did have a lot to do with that tournament. Remember, we had lost Archie Marshall who was by far the better athlete. Despite rather journeyman stats before and overall, Piper averaged over 7 pts and 6.9 rebounds in 6 games.
Back then, though, with 4 years as the standard, bench players in their 2nd year were not expected to be major contributors. A guy like Lightfoot was expected to be pretty much unseen as a freshman, develop his game as a sophomore, and become a solid part of the rotation as a junior. Hopefully, become a starter as a senior.
My, how impatient we have become. Lightfoot is precisely where he should be if we all hadn’t had our expectations change due to players leaving after 1, 2, or 3 years. The high level players we get now are able to do that, and we want their contributions accelerated as well. But to expect the same prodigious performances of everybody is absurd–“program players” like Mitch are the ones you need to fill those other 10 or 11 seats. And when given time to develop, yeah, they can be integral cogs in a drive to the top.
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@drgnslayr Interested in your comment that Cunliffe can’t handle the pace of play. It’s not like this is a guy coming straight from high school, like Silvio. He was a starter as a freshman for a Power 5 school last year - well for the first half of the year. I would have thought he would have been fully acclimated to the pace of play with that experience under his belt. Just thinking that it is something else that HCBS doesn’t like about his game - enough so that he isn’t willing to give the other guards more of a breather by bringing Sam in for a couple of minutes each half or if one picks up 2 early fouls…
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justanotherfan said:
Self is in a position where he needs to give Cunliffe and De Sousa both 8-10 minutes of game action each night.
Then the question becomes, why does Self not play Cunliffe at all in some games?
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justanotherfan said:
Lightfoot is not ideal, but without Preston, he was the only option, and to his credit he stepped up. But this is where De Sousa can help the most. Lightfoot is a limited player at this point in his career. So is De Sousa. However, if Self can rotate them in the lineup well, neither Silvio or Mitch will have their weaknesses exposed for extended periods. In effect, their individual limitations can help disguise each other’s limits in the long run.
I’m pleasantly surprised with Mitch’s defense.
And yes he has had to step up. Just such a weird situation that he might go from needed contributor to deep bench next season. Or he could invoke another Jamari situation. When you have a full compliment of players (as KU should next year) there are too many scenarios to count.
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He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.
Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.
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Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don’t think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.
As for why Self doesn’t play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He’s the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I’m not even sure that’s a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.
and counting…
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JayHawkFanToo said:
He sees him every day at practice, during scrimmages and individual drills and he knows a heck of a lot more than we do about his weaknesses and strengths. If he is not playinmg him, there has to be a good reason.
Yes, I know that game time and practice are not quite the same but I posit that Coach Self knows this as well.
I’m completely on Self’s side with this one. I don’t usually disagree with Self too often, Jamari was a tough one though…
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justanotherfan said:
Mitch Lightfoot has been a pleasant surprise in all respects. He has shown good perimeter touch and has been a better rim protector than I think anyone could have anticipated. I don’t think I saw any scouting report that suggested he would be a good shotblocker. This could change the trajectory of his entire career. He could become a starter if he can continue to improve, something I would not have thought possible after his freshman year.
As for why Self doesn’t play Cunliffe, Self often shortens his rotation too early IMHO. He’s the one in the Hall of Fame, so take that opinion for what any opinion posted on the internet is worth, but I think the streak influences him to win games in January and February rather than develop guys for March. I’m not even sure that’s a criticism really, because the results speak for themselves.
I think it’s going to be tough for Mitch to ever start, but definitely he looks like he can be a valuable contributor going forward. And it’s not that he isn’t a good player. It’s that next year if Doke is back he is behind Doke, Dedric and KJ immediately on the depth chart (the Lawsons smoke him in practice last I heard and I know it is just practice but we also have full seasons of the Lawsons playing D1 ball to look at). Quite possibly Silvio as well, depending on his development. Silvio definitely has more tools and more of a D1 body, but needs to develop mentally. I think Mitch will firmly be ahead of McCormack though. A lot will depend on who stays after next season and how 2019 recruiting goes. KU is targeting a lot of players at Mitch’s position in 2019. NBA level players like Matt Hurt. Of course, KU doesn’t always land them, injuries and other stuff happens. That’s how you end up with Landen Lucas starting, so it’s not entirely out of the question for Mitch, just difficult.
One thing I will note is that if Mitch can keep improving his jump shot, that makes him very valuable going forward.
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Coach Self is not the only one that prefers a primary 8 man rotation by the time conference plays starts. I have heard several other coaches including Jay Wright and, if I recall correctly Coach K, say the same thing.
Remember when UK had so many good players that Calipari started the platoon system? After a few games he called it a failure and went back to a traditional primary 8 man rotation which appears to be the ideal number to develop game time/court chemistry.
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8 is a pretty good number. It lets you play your best players more minutes (and there is generally some amount of separation there) while also being able to rest them.
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Next year we go back to being “Big Man U.”
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Yes… Sam has experience. But sitting on the bench has given him some rust.
If he had received all the PT that Mitch has received, we would see a different player.
By the way, I don’t really have a great feel for Sam’s game yet. I know I like his attitude… a lot!
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Considering our thin bench and the large number of minutes being played by our guards, I was expecting Cunliffe to get more minutes.
I see several benefits, give some breathing room to other guards, give him PT to polish his game for down the stretch, provide more competition etc. While Garrett is good on D and rebounds he is a big liability on Offense. Self can give some of Garett’s minutes to Sam. It will only benefit him and KU.
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Cunliffe appears to be an athletic wing player and I just don’t see him playing guard much.
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I have no issue with the 8 man rotation. My issue is more that when you are integrating a new player like Cunliffe, you need to give him more run than this, particularly when he didn’t have the opportunity in non-con because he was a transfer. If you’re going to play him this sparingly, it may have been worth more to the program to redshirt him this year with the intent of having him as a rotation player next year.
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@justanotherfan Self couldn’t red shirt him. Players have 5 years to play 4 in normal circumstances. Injuries are the one thing that can grant a player a 6th year of eligibility. Transferring counts against that 5 year clock and works as a red shirt. Cunliffe played 1 semester at ASU, transferred to KU, sat out for 1 academic year per NCAA rules, and is now eligible to play. At the conclusion of this season, he will have been in college for 2 years and played the equivalent of 1 year. He is for all intents and purposes a red shirt freshman right now. After this year, he will have 3 years to play 3 years.
It’s the same situation as Jeff Witney who played 3.5 years at KU. Cunliffe also play 3.5 years when he’s done here.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yes, but if he sat this entire season, he’d have three full seasons left. Five to play four. His freshman season at ASU, this season at KU, then three more. The key is he would only play in four academic years – his first, third, fourth and fifth. That’s my interpretation. Perhaps I’m subject to correction there. We, I thought, discussed that with CF a few years back.
I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what’s his role? Personally, I’d love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don’t get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.
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@Gunman You know, it might. But I think that we are in a different age now with coach Self – the Era of Great Tolerance. Heck, he yanked Sam for a bad foul, and got him right back in. Self has softened. He seems to accept mistakes much better. But being safe and not throwing up a “brick” as one of Garrett’s shots was correctly referred to last game, is the safer path.
Attacking the hoop, though, seems to be available to Garrett. I counted at least 6 missed opportunities from him last game. A big number. On one, his defender was recovering back and he had almost the entire half of the floor. He may not have gotten to the hoop, but he could have at a minimum made the attempt and I’m sure a dish opportunity would present on some, too.
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Self holds players out of games without explanation, because of 1 or more of the following:
1.) undisclosed injury;
2.) bad match-up;
3.) desire to minimize turnovers;
4.) undisclosed disciplinary issue;
5.) a change in rotation players.
Self told us minutes for perimeter players would decline, if either, or both, Da Sousa and Preston started playing.
Cunliffe could be nursing an injury, but I doubt Cunliffe is being punished for bad play, or disciplinary issues. He was just lowest on the depth chart, and so Self sat him when Da Sousa showed up. Da Sousa playing meant no minutes when Self had to play 5 perimeter players. And He could even play Mitch at 4 some. This takes away the need for Cunliffe to give breathers to 4 or 5 small small positions.
I forgot the accordion affect of Da Sousa arriving, when I indicated Cunliffe might get 8 minutes.
Cunliffe could see some action vs Baylor if leads permit, so Self can keep his starters fresh for OU.
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@HighEliteMajor I’m looking at Jeff Withey’s situation for the comparison. Withey came here after a semester at Arizona, sat out a year and had 3.5 years of eligibility left when he became eligible at KU.
I fail to see how Cunliffe is in a different situation than Withey. Cunliffe transferred after a semester at ASU, sat out a year, so why would he not also have 3.5 years left as well?
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I think as Self said when Silvio got cleared that the guards minutes would decrease more than the Mitch or Dokes is some of the reason. Self also stated when he was able to play that he was a projected and would be in the program for a few years before being a major guy.
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HighEliteMajor said:
I think Cunliffe is in a tough spot. Next season, assuming we have Vick or get Langford, what’s his role? Personally, I’d love to see Vick return. But does that make him the 5th perimeter player in a lineup that is playing two bigs? Not the sweet spot. His opportunity is likely based on need. Vick leave and we don’t get another high end perimeter player (Langford). That said, you never know. Dotson, Grimes, Cunliffe, with Garrett off the bench. Or if Vick returns, Sam is better than Garrett possibly so sneaks into the 4th role.
5th might be generous even. I don’t think he passes Garrett but stranger things have happened.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you’re right. He’d have a dangling semester out there if not. Old(er) guy brain cramp. I think I was wrong with CF too.
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He is in fact listed as a RS FR. That changes things. I think he can definitely contribute as a SR now. For some reason I wasn’t thinking he had that much eligibility left either. I blame the NCAA for being oftentimes convoluted.
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@jaybate-1.0 adding bad body language on the bench
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Unfortunately, Cunliffe missed the window of opportunity that is the schedule before conference when coaches experiment with rotations. Once conference play starts,. the rotation is pretty much set and players are expected to produce. De Sousa is perhaps the exception since there is an immediate need with bigs but the team has plenty of experienced players at the wing so his current value is limited.
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Self has a long history of sitting guys several games, even half a season, and then giving them unexpected tries.
The chances are high we will see Cunliffe again unexpectedly when everyone is certain he will never play again.
I will add though that Self has cryo-iced guys, after he has either signed a better player for next year, or decided some one he thought was leaving is coming back.
So: maybe Malik has decided to come back, or Self has not announced some new transfer or decommit.
It’s precarious at the bottom of Self’s scholarship depth chart, for sure.
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Also Self is a cook seasoning a stew. He can at any moment decide the stew needs something else, even if only for a few minutes each game, and give someone else a shot at being the new herb. He also doesn’t hesitate to change his mind back, if it doesn’t improve the taste.
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@jaybate-1.0 I think Sam will get more opportunities. WV is a bad match up for a guy Self doesn’t have trust in yet. Silvio got minutes with Doke in foul trouble and he wasn’t being asked to help break the press. Apples & Oranges I think.
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Totally agree and I am pretty confident he would not have played dasousa If he had not had to.
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My issue with the Cunliffe thing is that right now, by yanking his minutes around, you may be damaging his confidence for later on. Right now, he feels like if he makes a mistake, he’s going to get pulled. As a result, he’s thinking rather than playing free. That’s a tough habit to break. You don’t want to put the idea in his head that the coaching staff doesn’t have confidence in him.
You don’t want an athletic shooter like Cunliffe gun shy, because that may hurt his ability to contribute next year. That’s why I say hold him out. It’s more about the mental side of things than eligibility. If you aren’t going to play him, tell him he’s not going to play, but that you’re expecting him to be in the rotation as a contributor next season. Don’t jerk his minutes around this season because he may start changing his game without even realizing to avoid the quick hook, and once that aggressive edge is gone, it’s hard to get back.
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@justanotherfan Rewind a few years ago and I was saying the same thing about Releford, EJ, Selby, White, Diallo, Adams, Greene, et. al. You have to let a guy settle in, be comfortable, relax a bit, and just play. Confidence is key. Game experience is invaluable. I think you’re right. I like your suggestion of just holding him out – the roller coaster does him no good. If he’s not Self’s choice, so be it … use him only if absolutely necessary, or in scrub time.
One thing I will say, though, is that I do think Self has dialed it back on the quick hook. Cunliffe got one of the epic quick hooks vs. KSU. One, quick/silly/out of control foul, and immediately out. Haven’t seen too many of those this season (in comparison to past years). The most epic hook I can recall was Anrio Adams – in the game, excited, inbounds to Adams, dribbles off his foot out of bounds, turnover, and he’s out. Total game time, 3 seconds. Beautiful. No cereal eating on that one.
The difference is, Self reinserted Cunliffe pretty quickly. Adams, not so lucky. Where is that guy, anyway?
On the dialing it back thing, Self really seems to be a shadow of his former self (pun intended). But the Cunliffe yank was a clear reminder of seasons’ past.
I like Cunliffe, but I’m not on his bandwagon for increased PT because I don’t think he’s more talented than the guys we’re playing. Meaning, I don’t see his upside this season as outstripping the guys Self is playing right now.
Picking a scab – imagine that Reed and Morningstar were both injured and could not play beginning January 1, 2011. And imagine the national championship trophy sitting in KU’s trophy case. Just imagine.
