Redshirt speculation and effect
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I’d like to bring HEM’s excellent analysis back to the top again from another thread from yesterday
"The Greene/Frankamp thing is concerning to me. And this goes directly to landing to Wiggins. Wiggins’ signing impacts both. I agree with farside … I think Greene is the real deal. But roster numbers are the issue. Greene and Frankamp can count.
It really goes back to the Peters/Traylor/Lucas discussion from last season. It was pretty clear that one of them would get pushed out voluntarily or involuntarily, It was numbers. Lots of posters protested that suggestion. But you have kids that get one chance at college hoops. Roadblocks and being on the bench don’t sit well. Milton Doyle ditched after seeing his competition in Europe. Smart move. And now we know why Self helped Adams with his decision, right?
Now, for 2014-15 … we have Tharpe, Mason, Frankamp, White, Greene, and Oubre. One certainly won’t play. I think the non-player comes from the same list as this season … White, Greene, or Frankamp. White was the redshirt speculation, but that has ended. Tharpe and Mason are your ballhandlers and Oubre is a top 10ish player (I’m presuming he’s in the rotation at least). So White, Greene, or Frankamp.
While the logic set forth by Parishawk on Greene redshirting makes sense, my hunch says Frankamp. He’s in state, a clear four year player, no clear position, needs the weight room, etc. With Greene, he’s out of state, not a clear 4 year player, bigger guy, appears more game ready, and appears to be a bigger risk to transfer.
What is the price of the Wiggins’ signing? Could it be a Greene transfer? I hope not. A Frankamp redshirt would maybe establish the pecking order, and thus may make Greene feel a bit better.
Remember what we were saying about Adams and Tharpe this time last season … we were looking at numbers with the incoming freshmen. Selden had just committed – Greene, Frankamp, with White in the fold too. Adams ended up leaving. It could have been Tharpe.
It’s just an interesting dynamic worth watching."
Assuming Coach Self will play top 9 players this year, Black, Ellis, Wiggins, Selden, Tharpe, Mason, White, Traylor, Embiid. So Greene, Frankamp, Lucas won’t play. Lucas already redshirted and I assume he understands his role on the team.
In 2014, Black and Wiggins will be gone, we added Oubre. If we also land Okafor and Jones, we will have Okafor, Ellis, White, Oubre, Tharpe, Jones, Embiid, Selden, Mason or Greene. Again we have Mason or Greene, Frankamp, Lucas, Traylor not playing. Even if we don’t land Okafor or Jones, but land Alexander, I still don’t see how Frankamp break into the rotation. I understand both Greene and Frankamp are Rivals top 30 players out of high school, and both have Kansas connections. But how big of Jayhawks fans are they? Are they going to be happy to only play significantly when they become seniors? I’d like to point to Royce Woolridge, Zach Peters, Adams, Doyle who signed up, but moved away to look for playing time elsewhere. Provided all of them are low ranked players, but that also makes the situation more serious. Frankamp is a good player and top 30 ranked. I’d really hate to see him giving up and transfer out.
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I think Conner is the odd one left out.
I’ve already mentioned him as the player most likely to RS. It’s hard to judge his potential from just watching him last night… but I also attended the Saturday scrimmage and watched Late Night.
We all know he is playing at a size disadvantage. He isn’t able to compensate enough with athletic ability. A RS could help him out there, by giving him the opportunity to bulk up to D1 standards while practicing for a year in D1 scrimmages.
If Conner is not able to hold his own on the defensive end, he has to be able to over-compensate on the offensive side of the ball. That means he has to be shooting (and making) a decent quantity of 3s as compensation. Conner can get his shot off fairly quick, but at the D1 level he still needs a decent amount of spacing to be a constant threat at shooting and making 3s. I hope, for his sake, he was just like all the other freshmen last night and showing his nerves… but he did get scored on by a D2 player he was glued to, and he showed signs of struggle getting up his shot and even pushing the ball forward on his dribble. All of those signs tell me he should be considering a RS.
With the recent news about potential recruits coming our way, I am starting to wonder if he’ll remain a scholarship player after this year. From what I know about Conner is he’s a big-time KU fan and wants to stay in Lawrence. And if he’s having issues translating his game to D1 at Kansas, he’ll have those same issues if he transfers to another D1 program. If this is the case, he’d perhaps consider moving to D2 to earn a starting position and be extremely effective, similar to how he was in HS.
BTW: this post is all speculation!
Maybe Conner could workout a friendly deal with CS to shift his status to walk-on next year, but will be rewarded with decent PT whenever he can be used. That doesn’t mean he’d always be a walk-on. He’d always have an opportunity to earn a scholarship in future years, or be rewarded one if we don’t use it on a recruit (similar to Wesley).
Greene looks to have a better chance of being our 3-pt bomber… and not just because he nailed a few last night. His size makes it easier for him to get off his shot so he needs less spacing. And his size helps him on the defensive end, meaning he can contribute more on both sides of the court and will be a balanced contribution, whereas Conner needs to have an over-compensation on offense to makeup for defense, and I don’t think he’s got the spacing to do it.
Again… I’m a big Conner fan and I applauded his recruitment and coming to Kansas. I hope I’m wrong and he figures it out and becomes a dead-eye offensive weapon we can unleash (at will) on opposition! But as of today, I’m seeing less of that potential and more potential on Greene.
White will be in the rotation this year.
These are just ideas… don’t flame me on this. I’m hoping to see a different Conner soon (like many of you want to see)!
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I enjoy the speculation and recall Releford RS and how it helped him and so many others and during his off year he was right attitude with 1st one off bench to congrat good play. I wish we had a YouTube of all the RS guys and how it wasn’t what they planned yet turned out the best in the end. RS is not a demotion, being asked to move on is a demotion, a RS is just a not now, but I will reward you later move.
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Great post!
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If this guy was rated 30th or whatever it was, I would think he 'd be good enough to be playing this year, not sitting out. It would be interesting to see the history of redshirts. What’s the highest ranked player to RS not because of injury, how their career turned out, etc.
I can think of one example a decade ago in Wisconsin. The first (and only) MCD’s all american came to UW. His name was Brian Butch. Bo redshirted him his first year, then came back to have a very solid career with a cup of coffee in the league too.
Don’t forget too, all of our freshmen looked like freshmen playing the first time in the bright lights last night, not just Connor.
Good posts both of you!
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Should have said “all” of you!
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<pre>
- PF Perry Ellis (Rivals 24, 2012) Sophomore
- PG Naadir Tharpe (Rivals 92, 2011) Junior
- SF Andrew Wiggins (Rivals 1, 2013) Freshman
- SG Wayne Selden Jr (Rivals 12 2013) Freshman
- C Tarik Black (Rivals 54, 2010) Senior
- C Joel Embiid (Rivals 25, 2013) Freshman
- PG/SG Conner Frankemp (Rivals 34, 2013) Freshman
- SF Andrew White III (Rivals 51, 2012) Sophomore
- SF Brannen Greene (Rivals 29, 2013) Freshman
- C/PF Landen Lucas (Rivals 150+, 2012) Sophomore, RS
- PF Jamari Traylor (Rivals 141, 2011) Sophomore, RS
- PG Frank Mason (Rivals 76, 2013) Freshman
- C/PF Hunter Mickelson (Rivals 100, 2011) RS </pre>
And Oubre is Rivals 12, Alexander 4, Okafor 1, and Jones 5 for 2014. I believe Selden and Oubre will want to be here for multiple years. So we will have a log jam for a few years in the 2-3 position. Chalmers was Rivals 12 and Collins was 21 when they came out of high school, and both stayed for multiple years at KU. If Jones comes, will he be here for 2 years? Jones will be a short PG by the NBA standard at 6’1".
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I like this writer’s writing style, and he has some good points too.
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Everyone seems to be really over-thinking the redshirt stuff. There is no upside. With top-40 rankings out of high school, I’d be shocked if either Greene or Frankamp would accept a redshirt before transferring out of here, and they are exactly the kind of 30- to 40-ish ranked guys we need to stick around for 3-4 years to keep a solid program (unless we’re happy with a Robert Morris NIT loss at the end of every couple of years).
Asking Conner to become a walk-on in order to offer a scholarship to next year’s prima donna one and done? Not going to happen to a competitor like Frankamp. And, if Self tries to pull that crap with an in-state kid, there will be some backlash.
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Before we saw any play this year I was the guy defending Conner. I watched him dominate HS ball and he was a scrappy player. I thought he’d find a scrappy way to make his game work in D1. I’m still hopeful he’ll figure it out. But from actually watching him go head-to-head, I’ve come to believe a RS will help him translate his game to D1 without losing a year while making it happen.
The concept of him flipping to a year of walk-on status isn’t meant as a slam on his ability,but more about him (and his family) stepping up another level to help the team. This is not the first time this has happened in college sports.
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This post is deleted!
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One thing we haven’t really considered is what Wishawk pointed out … Selden might stay. Yikes. That would be the logjam to end all logjams there.
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Slayr, I have to say this is a large stretch. Your posts are typically 100% accurate but I can’t even imagine a situation where a player of CF’s talent would “walk on” or play D2 ball. He is one of the top players in the entire country coming out of high school. Top 30 or top 50 depending on what poll you choose to read. He may not be ready to make an impact right away and he may red shirt, but he is going to be a good if not great D1 player. His scouting report says “unlimited range”. You do not hear that often and whatever shortcomings he has physically will be corrected by Bill Self and Hudy. Think of some of the other “shooters” just in the Big 12 who have made a large impact on their teams…Brady Heslip is a good example and CF has a far higher ceiling than he ever had.
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Joe… I agree it is a stretch… a huge stretch. I’m just trying to think of a way where we can bring on these recruits without sending someone packing.
On the other hand… if we book that much talent, we will suffer the consequences of over-recruiting, and too much of that talent will sit on the pine more than they should.
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Dan - On Frankamp, a redshirt would be incredibly helpful, I think. He’s not Brannen Greene. Greene is ready physically to play. His assent to the NBA is not limited by that issue. He may be a 3 year player, developmentally comparable to Marcus Morris.
Frankamp is different. Does anyone see that he projects to the NBA now? Not me. But if there is a chance, it will be as a fully developed adult; lots of weight room and lots of development as a player.
If I am Frankamp’s family, my first consideration is his development; my second is how he fits in terms playing time at KU.
No doubt this kid needs to develop his game, and physically. And hile injuries and unknowns may change things, my guess is Frankamp would play more in the 2018-19 season, than in 2013-14.
It adds up to “redshirt.” But that doesn’t mean it will happen.
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HEM, I totally agree with you re: Frankamp’s possible redshirt.
However, it would be 2017-18. Please don’t make the years go by any faster than they already are!
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“BTW: this post is all speculation!”
No need to say that… All of these are
Although yours are always knowledgeable.I was really impressed with Lucas and White. Lucas was almost unrecognizable and White played with confidence. White and Greene both bring a lot of pluses but I give White a slight edge as he already put in his time on the bench but would like to see both of them in the rotation.
As for RS’s, no idea. Maybe Connor or Mason although if Mason was to redshirt, we could be short at the PG position. I’m not going to try and outguess anything, just glad that the season has started.
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@wissoxfan83…Actually down here the correct usage would be “all y’all”
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I still forget I live in the South!
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While I agree that Frankamp’s debut was not what I expected, we should not be quick to call for red shirt after one exhibition game; Conner can flat out play, Check his play with the US team in international competition where he was the leading scorer and maybe even player, playing alongside other highly ranked players. Let’s give him a few more games to show what he can do before we start penciling him in for a red shirt. The comment that he would change status to “walk on” is utterly ridiculous, no insult intended to the poster.
