Defense? We Don't Need No Stinking Defense!
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@JayHawkFanToo exactly. The theory is not matching the facts.
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@jaybate-1.0 Sorry, what I was trying to get across is that for the first TWO games in conference he is shooting 28.5 deom the field AND shooting 28.5 % 3pt shooting, Kind of odd shooting the same pct in the tfirst two but not very good - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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On the injury thing, @jaybate-1.0 is usually quick to pin things on injuries. Many times he’s right. Here, I’m skeptical.
On the defense thing, I firmly believe that your scheme and approach is premised on your personnel. That includes defensive acuity. If you are not up to par defensively, the world does not end. The game is won based on only one ultimate factor – who scores more.
As untenable as a 90-88 score may seem to Self, it counts the same as the 65-60 score he seems to enjoy.
We just have to cover our limitations. I had mentioned in a recent post the 2013-14 Jayhawks after we lost Embiid. Focusing on our strengths, understanding our defense was compromised, called for an all out approach to outscore the opponent, understanding we’d give up points. Not a "who cares’ approach to defense, but maybe a “it’s not the end of world” approach. Energy focused on offense and more possessions.
We are much in the same boat inside defensively now. Opponents will simply try to foul up Lucas. I say, so what?
There will be bad matchups. But unless there is a bull inside and the opposition plays zone (or a very nimble/quick big), our perimeter players are so good we can create the advantage. Hard for big guys to keep up with the high quality smaller players (and to help) than the other way around (where it’s easier to trap on the box or double low). If we can shoot over a zone, we can beat anyone.
No approach is completely reliable.
@wissox asked if Doke made that big of a difference. Losing Doke was huge. It limits our options. But we still are a top 5 team, and a team that can win the NC.
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@HighEliteMajor Good point, and really, wouldn’t we rather watch a 90-88 game instead of a 60-57 game?
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@HighEliteMajor I know we are only talking 2 games here…but we have had 2 close games with good, but not really good teams…in large part…because of our defense… isn’t that cause for concern in March? The teams we will play in March will be considerably better than TCU and KSU.
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I think we’re cakewalking. I can understand why the guys look at K-State as a bye week. We’ll get better defensively- Devonte is saving his body for the big games, imo. Frank as well.
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@KUSTEVE you know, I kind of had that feeling also. Our returning starters know that they can get the job done in the tourney as they went to the elite eight last year. In theory, there is little use in blowing out K State and getting even more worn out. Now none of us like games like last night, but in the larger sense blowing them out last night has zero impact on how we play at Ames.
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@KUSTEVE a lil to close for me!
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I think Self is taking a similar approach this year that he did in 2012 when he had a really short bench. That was an offensively challenged team, but an elite defensive team so Self relied on their defense to win games.
This year, this team is an elite offensive team, but not a great defensive team. Self is going to ride this offense as far as he can this year even though it has to be killing him mentally to rely on offense instead of relying on defense.
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First, the loose defensive morals of this basketballl monastery are enough to make me feel I have fallen in with offensive heathen.
SINNERS REPENT!!!
Friar @wissox seems to have become positively reptilian. He would rather win 90-88 than 60-57? OMG! Forgive him Father!!!
Friar @KUSTEVE thinks Devonte is saving his body? This is a sin against basketball manhood and may result in a lightening strike.
Friar @HighEliteMajor is openly skeptical about unreported injury to one of KU’s top guards in the Selfian Era after him having two straight 28% shooting nights in Conference and barely being able to jump down the stretch of the KSU game? Ten Hail Jimmies, Brother HEM.
I could go on here, but the point is made.
There is a pox upon our basketball monastery,
A plague of locusts may be coming to devour our gardens and wolves may come to eat our lambs.
90-88 win with a travel and a charge on one’s home floor against a cellar dweller? Against no talent sod busters with milking callouses on their palms and oat hay straw in their hair?
The Lord Basketball god shall ravage you all with hail until thou art beaten birds in the blighted corn and sin of Sodom East of Eden.
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@jaybate-1.0 said
. Nobody wears that stuff, because it’s sexy.
Don’t underestimate the sexy feeling of spandex. Especially if a woman provides positiv feedback.
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@HighEliteMajor love the point:
“As untenable as a 90-88 score may seem to Self, it counts the same as the 65-60 score he seems to enjoy.”
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@jaybate-1.0 Years of Dick Bennett and Bo Ryan scores I’m ready for some Tarkanian run n gun in Lawrence!
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@HighEliteMajor said:
As untenable as a 90-88 score may seem to Self, it counts the same as the 65-60 score he seems to enjoy
Thinking proportionally, 90-88 is really more like 65-64.98573.
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@jaybate-1.0. 63.555555555555… (repeating 5’s)
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Self needs to light a fire under Devonte. He can’t make a layup or defend. That guy is playing terrrible and will cost KU games if he doesn’t play closer to his potiental. Hell I’d love last years Devonte. If he’s not injured he’s tanking for another reason, girl, family, school, maybe Maxwell was his buddy. I don’t know what’s wrong, but Devonte needs to fix it pronto!
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@JayHawkFanToo I can hit a half court shot sitting in a chair. I saw Rod Stewart making threes from the bench while his leg was in a cast. Half court shots prove nothing, but that he likes to screw around instead of practicing a real skill or pushing his teammates to get better.
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@dylans I love that they practice the half court shot. When we make one to win a game all of us will be glad they practiced a seemingly frivolous shot. RCJH
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First, sitting on a chair at half court you probably don’t hit the free throw line…a lot harder than it seems and a trick shot that late and great Pete Maravich would do from the paint while playing donkey and most other players could not
Look at this video of the the 3 point shot at halftime…nothing wrong with him…
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@JayHawkFanToo And yet I have and I’m not athletic in the least. You can ignore the rest of my post if you wish, I’m not going to look up video of Stewart to prove my point. I’m not saying Graham is hurt, just that a cripple can make a half court shot.
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Perhaps I did not explain myself well. My point was that contrarily to some poster’s assertion that he is injured, he appears to be physically fit, that’s all.
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Nothing wrong with Devonte that 2 working legs wouldn’t cure. The hyperextended left elbow is apparently indirectly influencing his release on his shot. And he can’t fend off with it either. And the scout on him has to read: “hyperextended left elbow–non shooting arm–makes it super tough for him to put it on the deck going to his left. Thus, waaaaaay overplay his right.”
Oh, and one more thing. Remember that to really play pressure defense on the perimeter, you have to be able to turn and burn, when you occasionally get faked out and the guy gets by you. Devonte is showing no signs of turn and burn; that was really what tipped me off to the bomb pins. He is a good actor. He covers it up well.
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@jaybate-1.0 He isn’t himself.
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““As untenable as a 90-88 score may seem to Self, it counts the same as the 65-60 score he seems to enjoy.””
I question if any of us really know what goes on in Bill’s head.
I think most of us (myself included) has always viewed Bill as a “defensive coach,” meaning… defense first, everything else (including offense) second.
Now we see him as someone who is opening his mind and changing. Maybe he really isn’t changing but we just didn’t know him that well in the first place?
I think of things Bill has said over the years. One thing that stands out now in my memory is, “margin of error.”
Perhaps all along Bill’s main focus is on creating a situation where we have the largest margin to screw up and still win. This idea seems to work with everything he has said historically.
If we don’t buckle down on defense now, we reduce our margin of error considerably. We can’t afford to have a bad shooting night, or high TOs, or low rebounding, or bad FT%, or extreme foul trouble…
With no defense we can’t hardly afford to have a bad night in any other area and still hope to win.
If we play good defense, we can win almost any situation. This was the lesson from BAD BALL. We didn’t win all the time, but we won a lot of games with a bad offense.
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Well heard something interesting from a sports talk show today. - - kind of interesting - -and really makes some sense. - -The point being made, we hold KU in such high esteem - -so highly accountable that as they stated KU’S lowest Kem-Pom rating for defense under Coach Self was 22nd. - -They right now are at 26. - - like they said, there are 350 teams in College basketball - - WE have a Kem-Pom rating of TWENTY SIX - -and yet HERE WE BITCH. – WE are TWENTY SIXTH out of 350 schools in defense.- - Do we realize how many teams would love to have a rating of TWENT SIXTH out of 350? I mean Seriously. - -And Yes I’m just as guilty, but IT DOES put some things in perspective - -Are expectations are soooo dam high for these guys, we have gotten soo used to it, it’s actually kind of ridicilious. - - -AGAIN TWENT SIXTH in defense in the Nation out of 350 schools. - -Time to breathe & like Aaron Rodgers from Green Bay said - - R - - E - - L - -A - -X we are going to be fine, they WILL get better. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@jaybate-1.0 Sorry to disagree, I was at the game and the scoreboard replay clearly showed that Svi did not travel and if a foul were to be called, it would have been a blocking call on KSU. One of KU’s problems was the fact that KSU played some pretty damn good defense (KU did not). How we scored 90 points is a mystery other than the fact it was a really high tempo contest. Hope you don’t give me 20 lashes but this is how I saw the game.
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@jessejayhawk KU scoring a lot of points is no mystery - this is one of the best offensive teams in the country behind Kentucky and UCLA.
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@jessejayhawk coach self said Svi traveled
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@Crimsonorblue22 I don’t know how you can look at the replay and say he did not travel.
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I want you for my Media manager. You almost made it seem all okay. A Kelly Anne Conway level of reassurance and calm. Bravo, sir!
For a second there I blinked and forgot Self said ithis was his worst defense at Kansas.
Alas, they also looked bad defensively the last two games.
And 88 points is a lot to give up on your home floor to a rival that had to scramble just to field a team this season.
What is their KENPOM rating the last two games?
Maybe that 26 rank included the whole season; I.e., before Doke went out and DG started appearing to play unreported?
I thought they were progressing toward being a good defense until recently. I was comfortable that early injuries accounted for some early problems and they were healing. But…
After these lat two games something seems very wrong. Not irreversibly wrong, but concerning enough to Self to call them his worst defensive team in hopes of spurring them back into effective defenders.
I reckon some shorter practices should help, too.
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KU scoring: KU scores well, shot 50%, and they played a weak team; Thanatos explains KU’s 90.
Svi traveling: I counted three steps after picking up his dribble. Self says he travelled. Others above saw the travel. Maybe the Washington Post thinks Putin hacked the scoreboard replay as a favor to Svi?
Svi charging: the home team often gets that call, so I’ll be a mensch and write that off.
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@Hawk8086 I say he did
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Podcast with Jesse
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@jaybate-1.0 close win is a win.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 but he may kill some players as he stews in his frustration
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So top 5%. I was thinking same thing as I listened to Jesse’s podcast
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Board rats sometimes misunderstand that other board rats are not complaining about the win. I imagine they are quite happy about the win. Rather, they are rationally concerned about the level of defensive play, given the level of the opponent.
I for one would be making this comment whether we won or lost
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@jaybate-1.0 actually your counterpoint is a valid factor. Will our rating fall further minus UA.
I’m highly concerned with our defense. I think we’re going to be bloodied along the way due to that, especially on the inside and our poor FT shooting.
Throw in a rough Offensive night too (for whatever reason) and I don’t know what it could look like. Hopefully wouldn’t occur at an in opportune time that becomes a mental blow that we struggle to recover from. Don’t think that’s highly likely.
Or in the tournament and it’s over. I’m still shell shocked from how well Villanova had read our mail and locked us down defensively last year. It’s a one game scenario and even though all our issues, we were still in it with a chance to win, it didn’t matter. Just like kstate game we squeaked one out.
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Middle of our conference schedule is gonna be tough. May determine if we get 13 or not.
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@jaybate-1.0 Well thanks, I would love to be your Media manager. As you so quite nicely say " Alas they also looked bad defensively the last two games" TRUE how so very TRUE YOU ARE, - -BUT yet, when I peek at the scoreboard at the end of the game, WE WON, WE WON, which in the grand scheme of things we had more points then the other team. Yes ONCE again your correct - - Bill did say this was his worst defense at Kansas, and yes it is - - TWENTY SIXTH out of 350 schools, TWENTY SIXTH. - - -Does that mean we should be happy? - -satisfied ? - - HELL NO, we shouldn’t - -why shouldn’t we be happy? content? - -cause we have such high expectations, nothing less then perfection shall be accepted - - tolerated. After closer examination this is what we as KU fans have become after year, after year, after year of winning basketball. We are truly spoiled. Can we imagine just HOW MANY other Div 1 Coaches, - - -teams - - fans would give for their team be ranked 26th in defense, in the Ken Pom rankings and SEVENTH total overall out of 350 schools?
Now I like you I’m sure am tired, frustrated, even p - - - - - off at times the way we get beat off the dribble drive, easy lay ups, wide open 3’s by the opposition, BUT I have faith - -confidence in Coach Self this to shall pass, they can & will get better.
Can you/we imagine the pressure that these kids are playing under while playing at KU? - -under the microscope. We all know that these kids read media, they see what’s being said, they know they have things to correct, but knowing the fans are there to dissect their every move, play. - -I guess my question is Are We/me included expecting too much? - -Have we as a blue blood became TO Spoiled? - -is nothing less then perfection in acceptable? Another thought is isn’t the game for these kids surpose to be fun, at least in a portion? Yes I realize this is a lot of these kids future but still, aren’t they surpose to be able to have fun ? Can’t remember how many times I’ve heard Coaches including Self tell media that he tells the kids - -just have fun, - -go play the game. - -I wonder how much fun can you have when your under this kind of microscope? Do you think the guys are having fun?
Yes again I hope and feel we will be better on the defensive end. Like I said though maybe we need to just step back, and relax for a minute, remember to breathe, it’s gonna be ok - -again we just like Aaron said - - R – E - -L - -A - -X. - - ONE more time we are TWENT SIXTH out of 350 schools in Division 1 basketball. We are better then some other Big time schools in the rankings such as: North Carolina, Gonzaga, Wisconsin, Louisville, UCLA, Arizona, Butler, Zavier, Michigan State, Oregon to name a few.
Actually I’m more concerned about us just plain wearing down at the end of the season because of minutes on these guys, some how we have to get some rest for some key players like : Frank is avg 34.7 overall season - -BUT in Big 12 it’s up to 37.0 per - - - Devonte 33.2 overall - - -BUT 36.5 in Big 12 these are two guys that we need to some how find them some more rest – just afraid by the end of the season they will have NO LEGS what so ever if this continues. WHEW typing this has wore me out lol I think it’s time for me to kick back and R - -E - -L- -A - -X - – lol, Bottom line is yes defense is suffering, not quite as well as in the past - -TWENTY SECOND - - BUT last I checked 2-0 in the Big 12 play - - Ranked 3rd in the Nation , and still finding ways to win - - poor defense and all - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Did Svi traveled? Yes, but most of the time that is just not called at the end of the game.
Now, I just don’t see what you are calling a charge…Svi is airborne before the defensive player jumps and by rule the offensive players has to be given the space and thus it is not a charge but a blocking foul; during the game that would have been an “and one” play. Last, you failed to mention where the KSU players swipes Svi in the arm as soon as he gets past mid court, that could have been also called a foul.
So when looking a the the entire sequence in contest, KU got away with one travel and KSU got away with 2 uncalled fouls. I would say a wash.
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I am not sure how to interpret what you are trying to communicate.
But I will try to take what you give me.
If you agree that the referees botched the game with no-calls in a way that favored KU with a 90-88 win with seconds to go, which is what your summary of events leads me to infer, then ok.
At midcourt, there appeared little doubt that KSU was playing the percentages that KU was a poor FT shooting team and so was TRYING to put KU on the line. KSU desperately and obviously attempted to foul Svi at mid court. But the refs home-jobbed KSU on the attempted foul and refused to call it. This no call was the first huge favor the refs did for KU in this sequence you describe.
Next, the KSU player was trying to jump in front of Svi on the drive, and force the refs to call a charge on Svi, or a foul on the KSU player; not calling either a charge, or a foul, was the second no call on the same possession involving the same player–Svi–that favored KU.
Next, regarding the contact Svi made, refs are supposed to call it either a charge, or a foul, because contact on a shot was clearly made. Calling a foul, when contact occurs is what the refs are there to do. Surely a ref is still supposed to call shooting fouls in D1 basketball, even as engineered as it appears to be sometimes…
Refs are not supposed to decide the outcome of games. They are supposed to call inappropriate contact, whatever they deem that threshold to be. Surely a shooting foul to win a tied game with seconds to go is an important enough play to call a foul, rather than swallow a whistle to get a decided game over. Refs are supposed to set and call that threshold the same for both teams. This they clearly did not do in this sequence you have described.
Not making a call, either at the mid court, or at the shot on Svi’s drive, was determining the outcome of the game.
It is set in stone that refs are not supposed to determine outcome of games by refusing to call obvious intentional fouls, and by refusing to call obvious contact on the shots.
For what its worth, watching on television, it looked to me like the KSU player actually did establish position; that is, of course, why I said he charged.
But whether the KSU player did, or did not establish position, by resorting to a no-call for the second time on the same possession–that second time on a made shot–the ref decisively determined the outcome of the game.
KU did not win the game with its play.
KSU did not lose the game with its play…
The referee selected the home team to win independently of what the teams were doing…
This much is indisputable.
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No, you got it wrong. Had the refs called a foul in mid court, Svi goes to the line line with a couple of seconds left and even if he makes on a free throw, KU wins. Had they called a blocking foul (which it clearly was) and disallowed the basket, Svi goes to the line with less than a second left and again, even if he makes one free throw KU wins. That is two calls that favored KSU. Yes, they did not call the travel but there was a 50-50 chance that he would not score and the game goes to overtime, so you can call it a wash. Had Svi’s shot not gone in, there would have been at least two calls that favored KSU. All things considered, the refs let them play and KU came on top.
See? It’s not that difficult.
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have it right and you struggling with thinking it through clearly.
It doesn’t matter whether free throws might have been made, as you suspect, or not.
Weber had KSU TRYING TO DO EXACTLY THE RIGHT THING, but the refs denied them the tactic, not once, but twice.
An inferior team has to gamble in a situation like that. They have to choose whether to let KU play to its strength–athleticism making shots leading to a KSU loss, or to put a superior team struggling with free throw shooting on the line, and stopping the clock to get one more possession to win?
It’s simple really.
Weber was having his less athletic players do the right thing.
KSU WAS PLAYING THE CLOCK, NOT THE OPPONENT.
When an inferior team is tied and on defense against a superior team on its home floor, it SHOULD foul to stop the clock to get the last possession, even if it’s a Hail Mary. BUT OF COURSE 2-2.5 seconds is enough time to drive the length of the course for more than a Hail Mary and a win if KU had missed just one FT.
You can’t let the superior team play to its strength AND lose your last possession. You defend where they are strongest–making shots, and gamble on them missing one gettting the ball back Attack where they are weak, defend where they are strong. Make them win it on the line, not making shots. Get another possession at all costs. Definitely do not play to go into OT against a superior team on its home floor.
Think it through clearly.
Worst case: If Svi makes the basket and a free throw, you play to tie with a three.
Middle case: Svi makes the basket and misses the FT, you pull up for a three to win, or drive for a short Trey.
Best case: Svi misses basket and one or both FTs, and you are shooting for a short two, or FTs to win.
Weber had his team doing exactly the right thing, especially the mid court foul of Svi.
It would have been better for KSU to foul a lesser FT shooter, but KSU had to stop and foul ball handler ASAP.
Weber had to gamble on forcing refs to call a foul to stop the clock BEFORE KU made a basket. This is why the refs no calls determined the game. They would not let KSU foul to stop the game for another possession.
It was a crappy way to ref the end of the game and the refs should be held accountable.
It appears either the refs were intentionally engineering the winner with no calls, or they were acutely incompetent.
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@jaybate-1.0 I think you are the only person I have ever seen argue that failing to call a foul on a last second shot in a tie game somehow favors the shooting team.
All these years of watching coaches gripe about noncalls when they should have only bitched about their guys getting free throws to break a tie with a second or two left. Who knew?
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SMH.
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No calls are basketball 101 IMHO,
Are you being genuine?
I will assume you are and distill this further.
Attempted fouling to stop the clock to get a last possession?
Common place practice.
A ref no calling a game late?
Hardly unusual.
A ref giving a home team a home win with a no call late in a game.
Hardly unusual in appearance, but referee motivations are generally hard to prove/disprove.
Refs are an apparently significant driver in the home court advantage?
Nothing pioneering here, but again referee motivations are generally hard to prove/disprove.
The no call has long been used to engineer outcomes in basketball?
Elementary. Point shaving scandals have revealed it.
Not making a call is easier to defend afterwards than is making a call?
Duh.
Error of omission instead of commission masks the ref’s contribution.
“I didn’t see it.”
You can’t appeal a no call?
Obviousness mastered.
No calls keep the clock running and let plays stand.
No calls are among a referees most potent tools in shaping the way a game is to be played, or how it ends.
Yup.
Recall: Back in the hay days of point shaving in the 1940s gambling scandals in New York, the no call and the no play were reputedly preferred tools of engineering games.
Surely this one time common knowledge has not gone down the memory hole, too?
Finally, I am making NO assertion about RIGHTFUL, or WRONGFUL, motivations of the refs in making apparent no calls; that ain’t my job.
Refs appear to make no calls for lots of reasons and not all of those reasons are bad ones.
Getting “jobbed” on someone else’s home floor appears a complex phenomenon. I recall some past discussions of research suggesting refs may be affected by an unconscious need to gain crowd acceptance, or avoid acute rejection. Some times coaches riding refs appears to result in refs retaliating later with unfavorable no calls. Sometimes games are reputedly fixed; i.e., refs are paid to engineer outcomes/spreads. And so on.
I’m not talking about referee motivations here.
I’m talking about the appearance of KSU trying to foul (twice) to get another possession and refs appearing to no call, whatever the ref’s actual motivations may have been.
The no call: it’s referee-tastic!
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The refs were bad the whole game, not just the last call. The refs didn’t consciencely chose KU to win. They were just bad. It wouldn’t have come down to a last second shot if the refs had let the teams play instead of removing defense as an option.
I’m glad to escape with a win it was 5 on 7 for KU and KSU.
