Protecting the Merchandise
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haha good one!
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@BeddieKU23 Man, really good discussions.
I saw Newman’s Div.1 stats at MissSt, and they were not OAD-like. He also was playing hurt most of that year. KU staff has told him to work on his handles.Why couldnt Newman be a more aggressive version of EJ?
And I see Vick as a bit more skilled and slightly longer version of Tyshawn. And he has that Memphis-baller “nasty” intangible quality about him. Why cant Vick function as a slightly-better Tyshawn?
What tantalizes me, is we all saw what we got when we added EJ + Tyshawn, something we waited 4 years from 2008 to see again, and it proved Self’s multi-guard concept yet again, just like Devonte and Frank are doing now. And honestly, if Newman wants to be a OAD at KU, then he’s gotta show the whole pkg, a complete repertoire–as he is nothing but a 6’4" guard with an NBA body right now. He’s got some questions to answer, and he’s got a year to think about it and work on it. Im betting he answers the call.
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Not protecting the merch. Hurting the rim instead.
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Just to reiterate my view on non-committed prospects: I havent said a word about Duval or Garrett, since it is an utter waste of time to project them in the lineup or pontificate about it, or wax on and on about it–> until they are actually on the roster. Its like Deandre Daniels, or Kaleb Tarczewski again, he even told Self he was coming, but then backed out at the last second. So, I could care less about some high school kid until he actually shows up on the roster. Then I’ll pull for him for life.
Besides the next-man-up rabbit out of the hat, is usually out of Self’s own hat (returning players). JJ, Frank, Devonte are all exceptions. I guess you can hope and pray that some new frosh comes in and just gets it all right away. I look for efficiency of play, which an exceptional frosh (like JJ) could do, but such finds dont grow on trees. Usually KU people know to expect more from returning players, as thats the pattern we’ve seen in this coach’s system.
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You make a good argument.
I agree with most of the things you said about Newman. He could become better versions of EJ or a skilled version of Taylor. If he hopes to be Transfer and Done in one year he’ll have to show off a more rounded game then he’s showed so far. I think that’s ultimately why he ended up here after passing on KU the first time around. He realized the mistake and is now getting a chance at redemption.
Miss St wasn’t the best situation for him, style wise, injuries, the step up in level of play etc. . He’s a shooting guard stuck in a point guard’s body for the next level. He’s not your typical transfer that is looking for a new home to revitalize his career. He’s a good player looking to get back in the good graces of NBA scouts. Most transfers become 4 year players because they need to, I can tell you now this isn’t Newman’s plan. Newman with a good year will be in the NBA after next year.
I suppose I’ve been hard on Newman but I have watched enough of his games to see what I don’t see in him. Maybe he’s able to pick up enough things during this off year from Devonte/Frank that he’ll be serviceable.
Is Serviceable enough?
I do think he’d make a great 2nd option as a ball-handler, just as Graham has made Mason a better player and vice versa. Newman is going to need someone running the show with him who’s unselfish and has the ability to make teammates better. That has also been a question with Newman- does he make the players around him better?
By the way Garrett is already signed to KU. We can include him, he’s a Jayhawk. We are going to love Marcus, and we may need him to run the show right off the bat because he might be the best and only option to do so. Known for good leadership, passing ability, defense and ability to create offense. Self found his next gem, a guy who can guard 1-3 positions at 6’5-6’6. It’s not ideal to hand the keys to a freshman but we may end up in that situation. He might also be the type that can handle the job as well.
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Vick as a better Tyshawn is where it fell off the rails for me. Vick doesn’t have that kind of ball handling ability.
I think we can live with Newman handling the ball, but the primary ball handler is far from desirable. I really was NOT a fan of EJ the PG for a lot of reasons. We will always have that ISU game though. Heh.
Agree. Garrett is everything Self wants in a player. Tough, athletic, long, versatile.
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Can Newman do what Frank is doing this year? Absolutely. Go back and watch what he did in high school. He’s not a pure shooter, but he can get his points. The mistake at MSU was trying to make him a spot up shooter. That was never going to work.
The benefit is that Newman should be running the point for the scout team this year. I hope that the KU staff is taking full advantage of having Newman in practice to get him ready for next season. Newman will be a load to deal with next season.
Vick isn’t going to be Tyshawn. Look for him to be a better scoring Releford instead. Vick has some natural explosiveness scoring and, unlike Releford, he hasn’t lost that scoring instinct even though he hasn’t been a primary option at KU. This season is all about developing that outside shot to round out his offensive game.
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@justanotherfan you can bet they are working w/Newman! I don’t think Vick is done growing either.
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@BShark Vick is more McLemore than Tyshawn, imo.
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@KUSTEVE better boarder
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BShark Vick is more McLemore than Tyshawn, imo.
+1 Slightly better handles and less pure shot but pretty close. Both very athletic.
@justanotherfan said:
Can Newman do what Frank is doing this year? Absolutely. Go back and watch what he did in high school. He’s not a pure shooter, but he can get his points. The mistake at MSU was trying to make him a spot up shooter. That was never going to work.
The benefit is that Newman should be running the point for the scout team this year. I hope that the KU staff is taking full advantage of having Newman in practice to get him ready for next season. Newman will be a load to deal with next season.
Vick isn’t going to be Tyshawn. Look for him to be a better scoring Releford instead. Vick has some natural explosiveness scoring and, unlike Releford, he hasn’t lost that scoring instinct even though he hasn’t been a primary option at KU. This season is all about developing that outside shot to round out his offensive game.
It took Frank until this year to really get to this point. He is very much improved this year, especially decision making. Of course, Malik will be in his third year, with a full year with Self in practice to boot, so I do expect good things.
The last part of your post makes me miss Rele. Man that kid worked his azzzz off. His last two years he was the ultimate cog in the machine/glue guy player.
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@BShark I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more. He was a great set shooter. That’s who should’ve taken the final shot against Michigan.
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@Crimsonorblue22 i’m still waiting for Vick to make his mark as a deadly shooter from outside. He’s made strides, but i’m thinking him starting is really going to unleash his game.
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@KUSTEVE yes! He said he studied film when he knew he was going to start, seem to work! That’s why coach said he was most pleased for Vick to
The 
Go in!
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@KUSTEVE said:
I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more.
Hinrich. 2003. Needed to take that shot.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BShark I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more. He was a great set shooter. That’s who should’ve taken the final shot against Michigan.
Great shooter might be a stretch. He couldn’t get his own shot with the ball in his hands. Now, wide open camping out on the three point line then yeah I felt good about those shots going in.his SR year.
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@justanotherfan You’ve raised an interesting opinion: Vick isnt going to be Tyshawn. (do you mean better or worse?) And @BShark doesnt buy Vick as “better” than Tyshawn. SO, now I wonder which is it? Is Vick that much worse than soph Tyshawn? I certainly wouldnt imply Vick is leagues better. They are similar athletic builds, so I see similarites, and by Self’s requirements of his guards, he’ll have them doing similar things. I think its a fair “ballpark” comparison, maybe keeping soph Vick comparison with soph level Tyshawn. Or would an EJ or RussRob comparison work better? The skillset comparison is only being employed here to help define potential roles for next season…
I do like the Vick-McLemore comparison, if on height alone.
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Chalmers was supposed to be KU’s PG but he did not do well at that but was great as a SG and with RussRob at the point they made a great team. Of course he had to become a PG to play in the NBA and he did that reasonably well…maybe Malik will follow the same path.
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If Self uses Vick as a primary ball handler I will be quite surprised.
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As @BShark says, Vick is a SG, not a PG. He can handle enough to be a secondary ball handler (or a primary in a pinch), but he is a true 2. His ceiling (ceiling, i.e. not where he is right now, or even where he will likely get to) is Tony Snell, a former star at New Mexico that has played in the NBA for the Bulls and Bucks. Snell is a bit bigger (6-7), but probably a worse shooter.
The floor for Vick is our old friend Steve Woodberry. Basically a versatile super sub that can plug in at a variety of positions as a four year player.
I’d say that Vick lands as a Woodberry/Releford cross, but a better scorer.
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I agree. Vick is really a SG bu I believe than in a pinch he can play PG reasonably well; he is a combo guard with little more SG than PG. In my opinion, he is more athletic than Releford or Woodberry and a better shooter than both of them; he has a chance to be a real great college player and he might be the best player next year. Obviously I am pretty high on Vick.
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Interesting to note that scouts are already aware of Vick. Good chance he doesn’t make it 4 years here with his athleticism and his continued improvement. A consistent jumper away from next year being a possible 1st round pick. Agree?
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Yep, agree.
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I absolutely agree. I am absurdly high on Vick. I agree with @JayHawkFanToo that Vick is likely KU’s best player next year unless something crazy happens (i.e. Josh Jackson stays in Lawrence). Vick has already apparently passed Svi even though I feel like Svi has been playing well. I think that speaks to Vick’s talent.
As for being a first round pick, that will have to wait and see. As a 2 guard, he has to demonstrate some more scoring ability. I think defensively he is very close to being ready to make the jump, but offensively he has work to do. A consistent jumper would do wonders for him, but I think he also needs to demonstrate some more ability to create for himself and others.
Vick has five more assists this year than everyone on KUBuckets combined, and that hasn’t been due to a lack of playing time, as he’s averaging over 25 minutes a game. As a two guard, he either has to have 20 ppg potential, or have the ability to get baskets for both himself and others. A score first SG that cannot put up 20 per is not really a first round pick. A jumper will help push his scoring average, but I need to see him get baskets for other people too.
All that said, I would not be surprised if Vick was a 1st Team All Big 12 next season and opted to at least test the waters after the season ended.
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@justanotherfan I think Udoka will be the best player next year and potential first team all american
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That’s an awful high praise for a guy who can’t make a FT. he should be one of top bigs in the big 12 next year if he keeps improving
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@BeddieKU23 he had a 3 pt play last game
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Haha he did.
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I’m also high on Vick and I’m still getting used to seeing him on the floor. I’m really surprised how good of a rebounder he is but then again I’m always amazed at what Frank does on defensive rebounds as well.
I do think Vick is a much better shooter then he’s shown, just had early season struggles adjusting to playing minutes. He’s had good looks and it was nice to see those 3’s go in the last game. If he can make the 3 in the 36-40% range by year’s end he’s going to be a good one.
I think Vick has a good chance of being drafted in the 1st round because he’ll stand out athletically and he’s got a long wingspan so he can play a little bit bigger than 6’5 which he’s already proving he can. Next year he’ll be one of the 3 feature players on the team which will give him the chance to stand-out on his own and I have no problem projecting that he’ll thrive with more responsibility and pressure to perform. We’ll see but I’m excited to keep seeing this guy play
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Interesting to note that scouts are already aware of Vick. Good chance he doesn’t make it 4 years here with his athleticism and his continued improvement. A consistent jumper away from next year being a possible 1st round pick. Agree?
Very real chance he gets drafted after next year assuming he will be our starting wing.
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Vick trying to get his shooting percentage back up in one night. His game is growing by the day. I am really impressed with him so far this season.
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@justanotherfan Matt tait said that was how you get a Christmas card from self- referring to Vick’s play
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Well, if Graham should return, most of our conjecture on this thread is muted. Graham, Newman, Vick, Garrett, maybe Svi in the perimeter lineup. Wow! Garrett gets a chance to grow incrementally. Graham and Vick get a chance to go high in the draft, perhaps with Newman, perhaps with Svi. That said, the following year looks bleak unless Self works some more recruiting magic. Udoka will probably be gone, too, after next year.
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Doke said he planned on being 2 and done. He needs more than 2 so we’ll see
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@BeddieKU23 His size and strength alone will tantalize NBA scouts and money managers. But, hey, if Udoka does not look to be a solid lottery pick a year from June, then he definitely should return for year 3. He looks to me to be a Top 5 pick somewhere down the line, perhaps even Top 3. This kid was born much more ready than most players who ever picked up a basketball. Like Josh, another multimillionaire in waiting.
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Doke is an exciting player. Rebounds well and moves very well for a footer. He’s slightly ahead where I thought he would be at this stage. I’m pleased that he can be out there and impact the game enough right now to be a starter.
Honestly I don’t see a NBA team gushing over him right now. Maybe in 2 years I could see it. Doke doesn’t do anything offensively yet that will translate to the NBA. He still doesn’t know what to do with the ball within 3 feet unless he’s wide open and I keep waiting for him to use his power and athleticism to just dunk over people. He’s in the infant stages on offense so far. I believe it will come so I’m not trying to be negative at all, just giving a fair opinion of where his game is.
He’s got to improve his FT shooting, the coaches should look at his mechanics, because when he shoots you are not seeing a fluid motion at all. Often he seems rushed.
The good thing is he has picked up things fast, he’s lost a lot of weight and is still adjusting to the speed of the game. He is the type that can improve game to game though which is a big plus for his future.
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@BeddieKU23 really? Dok never attempts back to the basket moves? No running hook shots or spin moves? Hmm, interesting
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If he keeps playing like this, he might get drafted next summer. Just kidding (I think), but if he continues to play at this level, testing the draft waters isn’t out of the question. He is playing at a high level and if he’s more of a 40% three point shooter right now, that type of game will play in the NBA.
Best play he made last night was on a miss when he tipped the ball back out to (I think) Frank, and the possession resulted in a made three on the reset. He went out of area to get to the rebound, realized that he could not secure it from where he was, but had the presence of mind to direct the backtap to a teammate. Just a great play of court awareness to buy an extra possession.
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@justanotherfan self will tell him to test. Can doke test? I know he can’t go. I assume he can’t test.
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Doke is ineligible for the draft, so he cannot test (similar to a HS graduate).
My guess is that the following players test or declare:
Jackson (declare), Svi (test, unknown), Graham (test, likely declare), Vick (test, likely stay), Bragg (test, stay)
We know Josh is gone. Svi is a big unknown. I think he could go, but I don’t know where scouts will come down on him. We will know much better by the end of February. Graham is probably going to declare. Vick should test, but I think he still returns. Bragg should test while planning to stay. He needs to figure out what he needs to improve in order to take that next step. He has tons of talent, but he just isn’t putting it all together. Perhaps a different voice gets him over the hump.
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@justanotherfan more than anything I want Mason to find a great spot where he’ll be happy! He’s brought so much to KU!
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He does attempt them but I can’t think of any shot he’s made that wasn’t a dunk other than a up and under he had last night (which was a good move btw). Has he made a running hook yet? He’ll get there
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@justanotherfan said:
My guess is that the following players test or declare:
Jackson (declare), Svi (test, unknown), Graham (test, likely declare), Vick (test, likely stay), Bragg (test, stay)
Sounds about right. Bragg definitely needs another year. Vick is critical to next years core
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@BeddieKU23 yes he has made numerous hook shots
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@HawkChamp I’m going to agree with @BeddieKU23 on this one… If we are counting, he might be like 2/10 on them. Its not good. He missed one so bad last night it didn’t even touch rim. Personally, I think it is a dumb move for a guy as big as him. Where is the classic dropstep? At this point in his development, any move not going directly to the rim is a bad move for him. He needs to be a bully down low. Not a finesse player. More Shaq and less Kareem, please.
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@Kcmatt7 you don’t have to agree, but the fact that he CAN do it is reason enough that he should keep doing it in games. To be effective against real big men, you can’t rely on just dunking - you have to be able to score with a hook shot or spin moves. I don’t care that his accuracy is low - that’s why he is getting minutes so that he CAN work on it in a real game situation. Watch Kennedy Meeks to see what I’m talking about
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@HawkChamp I just don’t think the running hook is a move for a guy in the developmental stages. At least one his size. I’d love to see him master the the dropstep, Up and under, and the power dribble drop-step. If he can do that and pass out of double teams he will benefit himself and the team much more than throwing up a shot he shoots 20% at.
JMO.
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I agree with this opinion as well. The simple play for Doke is best right now. He gets the ball within 5 feet and has absolutely no immediate action on what to do with the ball. Eveytime he gets the ball with an angle I’m thinking dunk, drop step- go up strong but we usually see him throwing the ball back out.
Still so young and in the very beginning stages of learning how to use his body to score. The good thing is he looks talented enough to develop moves as the season goes on.
