Protecting the Merchandise
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@BeddieKU23 And the historical counter to that is: when has Self ever had a frosh PG actually lead the team? I know Calipari can pull that off, but not Self. Self’s system needs a PG who knows the plays, period. Literally the best you can get, is a parttime shared-role PG like frosh Frank, frosh Devonte, and frosh Sherron. I dont think we can count frosh Tyshawn as any successful frosh benchmark. Nor frosh EJ, who rode pine while BStar played…Frosh RussRob didnt start, and barely played. All #1 everything Josh Selby wasnt functional as a PG either, simply calling his own number in the few chances Self gave him.
Frosh PGs just do. not. know. the. plays.
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Next year’s ballhandling (if Devonte leaves) is the dual-combos of Vick and Malik. They are long, and have some experience. Like TT and EJ. Neither is a true PG, but then neither was TT or EJ, but the 2 together got us to the NC game. A major lesson in Self’s system.
Due to the hard lessons of the recent past, I’d absolutely take 2 experienced “combo” guards over 1 frosh PG. The statistical history does not support finding another frosh that can actually function and dominate like JJ can.
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But we are looking at a freshman PG whether it be Garrett or one of the remaining PG’s out there. A transfer PG will do no better “understanding” the offense
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I hope we are never in that position to rely on non PG’s Newman and Vick
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@ralster right - the common denominator amongst those examples is Self’s system. If you are going to get a bunch of OADs, then simplify the playbook like Calipari.
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Maybe Self raids the commits of places like Towson St and Appalachian St again…but, alas, even Franks and Devontes dont grow on trees. The only guards Self has been able to turn loose from Day 1 have been Sherron and Frank, as well as Devonte. Even McDAA Mario Chalmers failed as a PG, and Self had to move him to 2G/combo.
It also shouldnt be forgotten that Frank, Sherron, Devonte, Mario, RussRob, Tyshawn, EJ, Selby…none of them were true PGs. They were scoring guards first, who then Self wished to teach ball protection and distribution, to varying degrees of success. But, some of this is Self’s own limitation in simply falling in love with athletic, tough, scorers that can do it all, or so he thinks he can teach them to. So the guard we get will be filtered thru Self’s eyes and parameters. Whoever he is, he’ll have high expectations…starting in about Yr 2…
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@BeddieKU23 said:
I hope we are never in that position to rely on non PG’s Newman and Vick
Self would sooner put the ball in Garrett’s hands over Vick. I mean, we don’t know this 100% unless we see the exact scenario but Vick is just not close to a PG whereas Garrett is.
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Agreed I think we will see Garrett running the show if we don’t get young or Duval and Graham leaves. Not ideal but the only option we will have unless we find a graduate transfer
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I think if Graham goes and KU doesn’t get Duval or Young we are definitely looking at having to get a graduate transfer just to have enough guards for a proper rotation.
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Right, good thing there is plenty of time and lots of unsettled things.
We could be in play for everything, from de-comitts, graduate transfers, europeans, OAD’s, projects, practice players. You name it.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Right, good thing there is plenty of time and lots of unsettled things.
We could be in play for everything, from de-comitts, graduate transfers, europeans, OAD’s, projects, practice players. You name it.
Could be a wild spring…
Would be fantastic to get Young on board since he will commit before the spring, but it feels like such a long shot.
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We are after Young and Duval and each offers something to next years squad immediately. Young is definitely not an OAD but his outside shooting would be an upgrade to what we’ll have. Duval is a dynamic player at his position in the mold of John Wall, Derrick Rose etc. Or for KU comparisons a king’s version of Tyshawn Taylor as @BShark mentioned before. We know he’s an OAD, but the type of player that puts the PG position to rest for a year. If you don’t have the already groomed PG in the program, why not get the most talented one out there?
This would also let Garrett play a reserve rotation role instead of being forced to be the PG from the start. If we are able to get one of them its a safe assumption we’ll be starting a freshman at PG next year. We might be starting one even if we don’t get either PG signee. I think we all need to be aware that our starting PG will be young next year. How young and how talented remains to be seen.
It’s historically not the situation we want but consider how we got there. We didn’t sign another ball-handler in the 16 class to groom. We signed Newman to sit and play next year. Graham is old for his class (having did a post grad year), if the rumors are true that he told the staff he was gone after this year then this is the situation we are in. The way Self has recruited the position leads you to believe Devonte is gone regardless of his draft position.
I know you mentioned Vick & Newman but just because they are guards doesn’t make them lead guards. Newman would definitely be a “PG” before Vick but in that situation your not getting a natural floor leader. I know the rebuttal is Mason wasn’t a true PG but he’s had 4 years to develop into one.
Newman is looking to be a OAD at KU and his best attributes don’t include passing the ball or being the “lead guard”. Newman is a scoring guard and for KU, next year, is probably best in that role. We’ve been spoiled with how poised and tough Graham & Mason are.
I’m sure this discussion will be the most talked about when spring time comes around
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My understanding is the staff preferred Newman to Thornton. Probably could have had Thornton otherwise.
And yeah we need a PG to pair with Newman. Newman can get buckets in general, and should be a really good spot up shooter but we don’t want him being the primary ball handler.
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Interesting, I think Newman is a better overall player anyway but had we landed Thornton we wouldn’t even be talking about the PG position as a worry.
I think Thornton ended up at USC because of his connection with the coaches more than anything. What hurt KU in that situation was not being involved with recruiting him first time around which I thought was crazy because we recruited his teammates.
I also agree that if you have someone else to play with Newman he can be that 2nd guard in the offense. Who we get or end up with is important
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Young would be really damn nice. Young/Newman/Vick/Preston = hand down man down.
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Young’s ability to stretch the floor would be something. I don’t want him doing that at OU against us. OU’s offense definitely favors his style of play more then KU/UK does but KU definitely would need his shooting to go with Newman.
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Copypaste.
Trevon Duval’s recruitment has taken a lot of twists, but after a spirited game against Collin Sexton at Holiday Hoopsgiving, he was a bit more open about it all. IMG escaped a super gritty Pebblebrook squad 99-94 in what was a spirited battle between the two five star guards. Sexton finished with 39 points on 11-18 from the field, but also had six turnovers. Duval, on the other hand, had 24 points, six assists, five steals, and just two turnovers. Sexton’s scoring mentality did not come as a surprise to the nation’s top lead guard. “I knew he was gunnin’ for 40,” Duval said with a laugh after the game. “He played good and did everything I expected him to do.” After we got done talking about the game, we briefly touched on his recruitment. There was a bit of uncertainty about whether or not the Blue Devils had put a scholarship on the table. He ended that in Atlanta. “Yes, they did,” Duval said confirming the Duke offer. “I plan on taking my official to Duke and to my other four in my final five.” The other schools that he was referring to were Baylor, Arizona, Seton Hall, Arizona, and Kansas. While many were drilling him for exact dates, those are far from set in stone, but will be in the near future. “Not really, but I know it’s coming real soon,” Trevon explained of his visit to Duke. “I sent in all my stuff to get everything straight so I can take my officials. We’re just working on a date right now.” While there have been many changes throughout his list, it is quite evident that Trevon Duval is ready to get his college decision over with so he can move on to the next chapter of his career. In fact, he wants to do it ASAP. “Really as soon as possible just to get it over so that I can sit down, think about it, and make the right decision.”
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Yeah it would be tougher if Garrett has to start because he is not a great shooter.
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Andrew White III should be ready for another transfer next year…He’s not a ball handler though.
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haha good one!
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@BeddieKU23 Man, really good discussions.
I saw Newman’s Div.1 stats at MissSt, and they were not OAD-like. He also was playing hurt most of that year. KU staff has told him to work on his handles.Why couldnt Newman be a more aggressive version of EJ?
And I see Vick as a bit more skilled and slightly longer version of Tyshawn. And he has that Memphis-baller “nasty” intangible quality about him. Why cant Vick function as a slightly-better Tyshawn?
What tantalizes me, is we all saw what we got when we added EJ + Tyshawn, something we waited 4 years from 2008 to see again, and it proved Self’s multi-guard concept yet again, just like Devonte and Frank are doing now. And honestly, if Newman wants to be a OAD at KU, then he’s gotta show the whole pkg, a complete repertoire–as he is nothing but a 6’4" guard with an NBA body right now. He’s got some questions to answer, and he’s got a year to think about it and work on it. Im betting he answers the call.
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Not protecting the merch. Hurting the rim instead.
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Just to reiterate my view on non-committed prospects: I havent said a word about Duval or Garrett, since it is an utter waste of time to project them in the lineup or pontificate about it, or wax on and on about it–> until they are actually on the roster. Its like Deandre Daniels, or Kaleb Tarczewski again, he even told Self he was coming, but then backed out at the last second. So, I could care less about some high school kid until he actually shows up on the roster. Then I’ll pull for him for life.
Besides the next-man-up rabbit out of the hat, is usually out of Self’s own hat (returning players). JJ, Frank, Devonte are all exceptions. I guess you can hope and pray that some new frosh comes in and just gets it all right away. I look for efficiency of play, which an exceptional frosh (like JJ) could do, but such finds dont grow on trees. Usually KU people know to expect more from returning players, as thats the pattern we’ve seen in this coach’s system.
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You make a good argument.
I agree with most of the things you said about Newman. He could become better versions of EJ or a skilled version of Taylor. If he hopes to be Transfer and Done in one year he’ll have to show off a more rounded game then he’s showed so far. I think that’s ultimately why he ended up here after passing on KU the first time around. He realized the mistake and is now getting a chance at redemption.
Miss St wasn’t the best situation for him, style wise, injuries, the step up in level of play etc. . He’s a shooting guard stuck in a point guard’s body for the next level. He’s not your typical transfer that is looking for a new home to revitalize his career. He’s a good player looking to get back in the good graces of NBA scouts. Most transfers become 4 year players because they need to, I can tell you now this isn’t Newman’s plan. Newman with a good year will be in the NBA after next year.
I suppose I’ve been hard on Newman but I have watched enough of his games to see what I don’t see in him. Maybe he’s able to pick up enough things during this off year from Devonte/Frank that he’ll be serviceable.
Is Serviceable enough?
I do think he’d make a great 2nd option as a ball-handler, just as Graham has made Mason a better player and vice versa. Newman is going to need someone running the show with him who’s unselfish and has the ability to make teammates better. That has also been a question with Newman- does he make the players around him better?
By the way Garrett is already signed to KU. We can include him, he’s a Jayhawk. We are going to love Marcus, and we may need him to run the show right off the bat because he might be the best and only option to do so. Known for good leadership, passing ability, defense and ability to create offense. Self found his next gem, a guy who can guard 1-3 positions at 6’5-6’6. It’s not ideal to hand the keys to a freshman but we may end up in that situation. He might also be the type that can handle the job as well.
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Vick as a better Tyshawn is where it fell off the rails for me. Vick doesn’t have that kind of ball handling ability.
I think we can live with Newman handling the ball, but the primary ball handler is far from desirable. I really was NOT a fan of EJ the PG for a lot of reasons. We will always have that ISU game though. Heh.
Agree. Garrett is everything Self wants in a player. Tough, athletic, long, versatile.
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Can Newman do what Frank is doing this year? Absolutely. Go back and watch what he did in high school. He’s not a pure shooter, but he can get his points. The mistake at MSU was trying to make him a spot up shooter. That was never going to work.
The benefit is that Newman should be running the point for the scout team this year. I hope that the KU staff is taking full advantage of having Newman in practice to get him ready for next season. Newman will be a load to deal with next season.
Vick isn’t going to be Tyshawn. Look for him to be a better scoring Releford instead. Vick has some natural explosiveness scoring and, unlike Releford, he hasn’t lost that scoring instinct even though he hasn’t been a primary option at KU. This season is all about developing that outside shot to round out his offensive game.
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@justanotherfan you can bet they are working w/Newman! I don’t think Vick is done growing either.
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@BShark Vick is more McLemore than Tyshawn, imo.
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@KUSTEVE better boarder
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BShark Vick is more McLemore than Tyshawn, imo.
+1 Slightly better handles and less pure shot but pretty close. Both very athletic.
@justanotherfan said:
Can Newman do what Frank is doing this year? Absolutely. Go back and watch what he did in high school. He’s not a pure shooter, but he can get his points. The mistake at MSU was trying to make him a spot up shooter. That was never going to work.
The benefit is that Newman should be running the point for the scout team this year. I hope that the KU staff is taking full advantage of having Newman in practice to get him ready for next season. Newman will be a load to deal with next season.
Vick isn’t going to be Tyshawn. Look for him to be a better scoring Releford instead. Vick has some natural explosiveness scoring and, unlike Releford, he hasn’t lost that scoring instinct even though he hasn’t been a primary option at KU. This season is all about developing that outside shot to round out his offensive game.
It took Frank until this year to really get to this point. He is very much improved this year, especially decision making. Of course, Malik will be in his third year, with a full year with Self in practice to boot, so I do expect good things.
The last part of your post makes me miss Rele. Man that kid worked his azzzz off. His last two years he was the ultimate cog in the machine/glue guy player.
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@BShark I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more. He was a great set shooter. That’s who should’ve taken the final shot against Michigan.
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@Crimsonorblue22 i’m still waiting for Vick to make his mark as a deadly shooter from outside. He’s made strides, but i’m thinking him starting is really going to unleash his game.
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@KUSTEVE yes! He said he studied film when he knew he was going to start, seem to work! That’s why coach said he was most pleased for Vick to
The 
Go in!
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@KUSTEVE said:
I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more.
Hinrich. 2003. Needed to take that shot.
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@KUSTEVE said:
@BShark I’m still mad at Rele for not shooting more. He was a great set shooter. That’s who should’ve taken the final shot against Michigan.
Great shooter might be a stretch. He couldn’t get his own shot with the ball in his hands. Now, wide open camping out on the three point line then yeah I felt good about those shots going in.his SR year.
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@justanotherfan You’ve raised an interesting opinion: Vick isnt going to be Tyshawn. (do you mean better or worse?) And @BShark doesnt buy Vick as “better” than Tyshawn. SO, now I wonder which is it? Is Vick that much worse than soph Tyshawn? I certainly wouldnt imply Vick is leagues better. They are similar athletic builds, so I see similarites, and by Self’s requirements of his guards, he’ll have them doing similar things. I think its a fair “ballpark” comparison, maybe keeping soph Vick comparison with soph level Tyshawn. Or would an EJ or RussRob comparison work better? The skillset comparison is only being employed here to help define potential roles for next season…
I do like the Vick-McLemore comparison, if on height alone.
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Chalmers was supposed to be KU’s PG but he did not do well at that but was great as a SG and with RussRob at the point they made a great team. Of course he had to become a PG to play in the NBA and he did that reasonably well…maybe Malik will follow the same path.
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If Self uses Vick as a primary ball handler I will be quite surprised.
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As @BShark says, Vick is a SG, not a PG. He can handle enough to be a secondary ball handler (or a primary in a pinch), but he is a true 2. His ceiling (ceiling, i.e. not where he is right now, or even where he will likely get to) is Tony Snell, a former star at New Mexico that has played in the NBA for the Bulls and Bucks. Snell is a bit bigger (6-7), but probably a worse shooter.
The floor for Vick is our old friend Steve Woodberry. Basically a versatile super sub that can plug in at a variety of positions as a four year player.
I’d say that Vick lands as a Woodberry/Releford cross, but a better scorer.
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I agree. Vick is really a SG bu I believe than in a pinch he can play PG reasonably well; he is a combo guard with little more SG than PG. In my opinion, he is more athletic than Releford or Woodberry and a better shooter than both of them; he has a chance to be a real great college player and he might be the best player next year. Obviously I am pretty high on Vick.
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Interesting to note that scouts are already aware of Vick. Good chance he doesn’t make it 4 years here with his athleticism and his continued improvement. A consistent jumper away from next year being a possible 1st round pick. Agree?
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Yep, agree.
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I absolutely agree. I am absurdly high on Vick. I agree with @JayHawkFanToo that Vick is likely KU’s best player next year unless something crazy happens (i.e. Josh Jackson stays in Lawrence). Vick has already apparently passed Svi even though I feel like Svi has been playing well. I think that speaks to Vick’s talent.
As for being a first round pick, that will have to wait and see. As a 2 guard, he has to demonstrate some more scoring ability. I think defensively he is very close to being ready to make the jump, but offensively he has work to do. A consistent jumper would do wonders for him, but I think he also needs to demonstrate some more ability to create for himself and others.
Vick has five more assists this year than everyone on KUBuckets combined, and that hasn’t been due to a lack of playing time, as he’s averaging over 25 minutes a game. As a two guard, he either has to have 20 ppg potential, or have the ability to get baskets for both himself and others. A score first SG that cannot put up 20 per is not really a first round pick. A jumper will help push his scoring average, but I need to see him get baskets for other people too.
All that said, I would not be surprised if Vick was a 1st Team All Big 12 next season and opted to at least test the waters after the season ended.
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@justanotherfan I think Udoka will be the best player next year and potential first team all american
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That’s an awful high praise for a guy who can’t make a FT. he should be one of top bigs in the big 12 next year if he keeps improving
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@BeddieKU23 he had a 3 pt play last game
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Haha he did.
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I’m also high on Vick and I’m still getting used to seeing him on the floor. I’m really surprised how good of a rebounder he is but then again I’m always amazed at what Frank does on defensive rebounds as well.
I do think Vick is a much better shooter then he’s shown, just had early season struggles adjusting to playing minutes. He’s had good looks and it was nice to see those 3’s go in the last game. If he can make the 3 in the 36-40% range by year’s end he’s going to be a good one.
I think Vick has a good chance of being drafted in the 1st round because he’ll stand out athletically and he’s got a long wingspan so he can play a little bit bigger than 6’5 which he’s already proving he can. Next year he’ll be one of the 3 feature players on the team which will give him the chance to stand-out on his own and I have no problem projecting that he’ll thrive with more responsibility and pressure to perform. We’ll see but I’m excited to keep seeing this guy play
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Interesting to note that scouts are already aware of Vick. Good chance he doesn’t make it 4 years here with his athleticism and his continued improvement. A consistent jumper away from next year being a possible 1st round pick. Agree?
Very real chance he gets drafted after next year assuming he will be our starting wing.
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Vick trying to get his shooting percentage back up in one night. His game is growing by the day. I am really impressed with him so far this season.
