Start Isaiah Moss
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Moss is the 3 point shooter we need but also the kind of player Self hates on the defensive side. This team NEEDS to have Moss help keep the floor spaced so they just need to find a way to cover his defensive issues when he is out there.
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Agree with it all.
I don’t mean to pile on Dave (next year is his to anchor the post) but I’m stunned this has gone on this many games without a change.
The flipside to that is he’s not playing starters minutes anyway- last 5 games 12.8 mpg so Self is clearly benching him once he sees the ineffectiveness of him out there but why continue to start him when your getting so little production on both ends. The 3 turnovers last night is what stuck out to me from him in the OU game, I think they actually credited Azubuike with one for a pass he perfectly set up for him to get a layup/dunk that he just fumbled away to OU. He had another missed opportunity from Doke by bringing the ball down instead of going straight up and Harmon stole it (that was during the first 2 minutes of the game). There was another play he fumbled the ball out of bounds after Ochai drove to the lane, made a spin move and had the ball blocked at the rim that seemed to perfectly summarize his hands. Is he just so excited to make the play he’s overthinking it?
From a pure production standpoint we are not getting even average production at the 4 spot. Moss may have his hit and miss games but his hits may be 20 point efforts and a key to a win. I guess we continue to wait and see what Self decides on. Last night was clear evidence to start Moss once Dotson is back (if he’s back)
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BeddieKU23 Whatever gets Dave off the court when Doke is playing, I’m going to generally be in support of. Self clearly prefers Moss to start over Braun, since he did it. The “get the younger player more PT in prep for March” narrative still has weight if we view Braun as being that better option later this season over Moss. That may be a bit hazy. If Moss starts and he’s struggling, we have Braun off the bench (when Dotson is back). Sold. But if Dotson’s out, I’d start both Moss and Braun.
McCormack’s night vs. OU is just another example. 15 minutes, 4 points, 3 rebounds, two turnovers. Just a hindrance to our offense when paired with Doke. Plus, he’s so disjointed. Roberto Duran, hands of stone (as I think I saw someone say … I added the Duran part). That 18 foot jumper 15:25 of the first half that hit the backboard first was a great reason why Dave just needs to play down low.
Why does Self seem married to starting Dave in the face of the obvious?
Weird, but I liked DeSousa in his brief time on the Court. I would have liked to have seen another 2 minute opportunity for him, just to see. But I understand why that didn’t happen.
I think DeSousa is just lost. - -pretty much running amuk . - The truly only thing he is going off of right now is instinct. - Maybe able to rebound , his offense is nowhere to be found.
I truly thought we would of seen some better then what we HAVE seen. - -I understand that his minutes have been limited. Yet there is a reason they have been limited. A lot of times there also is a reason why players get amount of minutes. How they work in practice etc , etc. Silvio just looks out of place - he is another case right now where HE looks sped up , careless.
I really hope he can get things going cause we all have seen that glimpse of what he can do. At least boarding/defending right now in the minutes he is getting really not much
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Bill Self is the most stubborn man alive. (I’m 2nd).
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Maybe Moss needs to start for his confidence. To me, it seemed odd that he came to KU to start games on the bench.
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Moss kind of reminds me of BGreene, except without the funky attitude.
But he is making some gains on defense. And maybe he just needed to start. You have to admit it is weird for him to come to Kansas and not start.
Some of his defensive weak areas can be masked if we have 4 other guys hustling. The real problem is getting our guys to stay enthused. And an enthused Moss also makes a big difference on his defense.
Replay the Baylor game. Most or all of our team took that game off.
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@drgnslayr injury at beginning of the year really slowed him down
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@drgnslayr BG, really?
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Actually I see shades of Svi in Moss. Limited defender but they give effort, not great rebounders or instinctive hustler for steals but when surrounded by a team defense your not losing a ton playing him.
I agree its weird since a lot of preseason talk prior to the hamstring injury was Moss would play starter minutes. Now he’s been put to the fire with injuries and we saw the response last night. He certainly seems to be one that gains confidence with made baskets (something Svi also excelled upon). I think with his shooting ability the more minutes, more opportunity and more attempts he can provide that steady 40% trey gunner. It’s obviously needed. He can give you offense in a hurry or be radio silent. The risk of playing him big minutes certainly seems to outweigh everything else right now.
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Ryan posted this on the phog, figured it was worth sharing and relevant to this thread…
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@BShark I guess I’m not smart enough to figure out what this chart says or means.
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No question that Moss can be streaky - most shooters are - but he HAS to play starter minutes. He is the only player that opposing defenses really have to respect from deep. When he is in - even if he just makes a couple of 3s - it stretches the defense and opens up things in the middle for Doke or for drives to the bucket by Dot or Marcus. Worth noting that he has played 20+ minutes in just 8 games. In those games, he is 20-46 from 3 - 43%! And the takes and makes are trending upward.
On the season, Ochai leads the team with 30 made 3s. Moss is second with 28 - in 200 fewer minutes - effectively 7+ fewer games. For our offense to be reasonably effective we need to be taking ~20 3s a game and hitting 7-8 of them. On most nights, Moss would account for about half of that himself – which means you just need Ochai and Dot to hit one or two each with the bonus of an occasional one from Marcus, Braun or Enaruna…
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… that’s a convincing argument.
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@benshawks08 playing David and Doke together is our worst line-up. Much worse on offense including an alarming turnover rate. Slightly worse on defense and the standout stat here is teams are 7% better from three with the Dave Doke combo on the floor. Opponents also take many more threes against that pairing, it’s a recipe for disaster.
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BShark said:
@benshawks08 playing David and Doke together is our worst line-up. Much worse on offense including an alarming turnover rate. Slightly worse on defense and the standout stat here is teams are 7% better from three with the Dave Doke combo on the floor. Opponents also take many more threes against that pairing, it’s a recipe for disaster.
Maniac and Doolittlecrap made most of their perimeter shots with the duo
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Somehow someway this needs to make it plastered to Selfs door, his front door to the house, inside his newspaper, reading material in the crapper, on his ipad on a plane or bus. Whatever it takes the dude needs it
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@benshawks08 me either! I thought it was comparing the 2.
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A little bit BG. A little bit “I don’t want to get my hands dirty because I am the trey specialist.”
I could be wrong. It could be other things. And I have seen Moss go after some balls, just not consistently “down in the trenches.”
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Concerning running the two bigs… a part of me says “trust Self.” He’s proved me wrong before.
I see the concept that if those two were really plugging away there isn’t a team in D1 that could stop our post. I see that. But is it realistic to happen? So far, our bigs have shown us they can’t pass well. And our perimeter players feeding the post have also proven to us they can’t feed the post well.
Is this a passing problem? Or is it a set problem? Might we run different spacing and largely end the interior passing problems? Answer: yes
On defense, both our bigs have improved quite a bit on defense. And they know it is their weak spot and answer to getting more minutes and a better look from NBA scouts. Might it be best to just let this play out? Might they become pretty good perimeter defenders by March?
I like the 4-guard offense but I have been a proponent of x-axis ball for years. I also think Self is trying to reach a certain level of play with both lineups so we can throw both lineups at teams. It creates quite an adjustment for teams to make. It also means they have to scout and prep for us both ways. Did anyone in here think of that? So let’s say we sacrifice the first 4 minutes of every game. Might it be worth it to see if we can go big well and then flip after a few minutes? Our opponents will have to prep for both lineups and we might get benefits all the way around.
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@drgnslayr no way, not even a lil!
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@drgnslayr was it the isu game where the 2 bigs worked pretty good? Not long ago they did pretty good. I’ll have to look.
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Yeah that was one, Iowa St is also statistically the worst defending team in the league.
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Would love to know what software he used for that. Also to plug out the data on what combination is producing best. I’m sure we have a good enough idea as it is.
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drgnslayr said:
Concerning running the two bigs… a part of me says “trust Self.” He’s proved me wrong before.
What everyone forgets about the 2 big thing on this team is that Marcus on a scouting report is ZERO threat from the outside. So really its almost like playing with 3 bigs because anyone guarding Marcus can sag. Add to that Dotson and Agbaji are inconsistent outside shooters and its one big recipe for a clogfest.
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That hoop-explorer site is fun.
KU’s current starting lineup (Dotson, Garrett, Agbaji, McCormack, Azubuike)- 183 possessions together- P/100 (Points Per 100 Possessions)- 103.3. Biggest stat that stood out about this lineup is the Turnover % 25.7 besides the terrible scoring numbers together.
Now to more glaring evidence to play the 4 guard lineup at least on offense.
Lineup (Dotson, Garrett, Agbaji, Moss, Azubuike)- 143 possessions together- Points Per 100 Poss.- 130.1. Only a 14% TO rate together. Note add Braun to this lineup and take Moss out in 45 possessions 135.5 P/100. Promising stuff.
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@BeddieKU23 But how does the P/100 in those lineups compare to the Bill Self “toughness” scale. That is all that Self talks about anymore. Toughness…I’m actually sick of it. I dont care how tough you are if you cant shoot.
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That speaks volumes.
It is helpful to see statistics support what we are seeing with our eyes. I know I didn’t realize it was so stark!
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Isn’t +/- everything?
We know what we see. 4/1.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Isn’t +/- everything?
We know what we see. 4/1.
Actually, it’s even more stark with individual ±. McCormack is dead last among the rotation players, and it’s not even close. He is +48 on the year. In contrast, Moss is +200 (with ~70 more minutes). Interestingly, Moss’ ± is ahead of Ochai - and with 200 fewer minutes.
Yes, DE is down some with Moss in the line-up compared to another big, but the OE is significantly higher, more than compensating…
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Speaking of Moss and the teams need for him this past offseason. Can anyone explain to me why the staff can’t identify shooters in High School especially ones that play 40 minutes from the KU campus? Spencer Jones a 6’7 freshman at Standford is 46/102(45%) from 3 this year. I don’t understand why they don’t take chances on shooters and teach them how to play team defense. I understand the need for great athletes but recruit one shooter a year, even if a marginal athlete, and you should have 1/2 rotational role-playing shooters every season.
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Well Jones did end up at Stanford so I think you have to take into account what role Academics played into him ending up there. As far his recruitment goes, I don’t remember KU ever sniffing at him.
He did address shooting in last years class with Braun/Wilson.
2020, Bryce Thompson says Hello. Jossell is known as a shooter. Muscadin is a project with range. Grant-Foster has a functional perimeter game.
I do agree though, shooting should absolutely be a big priority with each recruit going forward.
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Braun and Wilson were known as shooters. Wilson is a marginal athlete so quite literally the exact player you are hoping for. Braun was a better high school player than Jones and checks a lot of boxes.
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@BeddieKU23 not sure if Jossell ends up playing much for KU during his career but he can definitely stroke it.
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Yeah I have no idea what Jossell ends up doing here, he looks a likely red-shirt candidate next season. Just pointing out he can shoot it and its a big reason he’ll be here next season
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I’m thinking outside the box here…
Is it possible Self thinks it is easier to teach a defender how to shoot than teach a shooter how to defend?
Anytime I think about shooters and defense I think about BGreene. Svi started off bad at defense, too, but showed definite improvements, somewhat.
I know many shooters put no emphasis on defense… which is just plain shortsighted, especially if they think they can some day make a living playing ball.
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@drgnslayr in their defense, the NBA is about shooting not defense lol.
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Self is his presser today said this:
On starting 4 guards from the jump instead of starting McCormack;
“We know that us having our 5 most productive players on the floor is with Isaiah Moss in the lineup without Dave” however he cited “Dave brings a lot chemistry wise”.
Coach speak? Fools gold? Sure hope he’s right with the way he’s handling this. I’ve started to think this isn’t being handled correctly
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@BeddieKU23 You’re right. He’s not. He just answered the question. He knows it too. We all know it. Playing Doke and Dave together, but for a perfect match-up situation, is irrationality. He can’t give a logical reason to do so. If chemistry gives us the better +/-, fine. But it doesn’t (Saturday was an outlier).
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At this point I’m over Monday Morning Quarterbacking this decision. We all have to live with him starting Dave for better or worse. If there is something positive that comes out of this in a consistent manner at some point in the season I’ll gladly eat some crow. Statistically I don’t see chemistry being the reason its keeping this together.
What unintended consequence we may be seeing develop is more Isaiah at the expense of less Braun which you’ve already hit on before. Ideally we see more of both but the last few games are starting to trend the other way with that as Moss continues to play big minutes.
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Well, this is better than Self being a complete idiot. At least he knows. Maybe this is an ego massaging thing. We NEED Dave next year, he will be our starting 5.
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It is completely irrational to massage an “ego” (if that’s the reason) and compromise winning an NC this season.
Next season there’s a very reasonable chance we’re not in the tourney anyway. But forgetting that for a moment, it’s still completely irrational.
This is worse than many other instances where we question Self because he has admitted clearly the composition of our best lineup and scheme. His own words.
Let’s not think that “Self knows.” He admitted back a few years ago that he didn’t know. That our view of three point shooting was correct and he was wrong. Further, lack of FFs and NCs with consistent top 5 rosters would seem to indicate the man doesn’t have all the answers. We just went a full decade without a national championship and only sniffing it once (2012).
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For context KU has 3 national titles in the entire history of the NCAA. Winning one is better than HOF coach Williams was able to accomplish in 14 years. We all want more, but let’s not diminish what has been accomplished. Bill has proven he is good enough a coach with talent to win it all. This years talent isn’t that great, imagine Josh Jackson or Wiggins at the 4 spot - that would be a legit contender.
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HighEliteMajor said:
It is completely irrational to massage an “ego” (if that’s the reason) and compromise winning an NC this season.
Next season there’s a very reasonable chance we’re not in the tourney anyway. But forgetting that for a moment, it’s still completely irrational.
This is worse than many other instances where we question Self because he has admitted clearly the composition of our best lineup and scheme. His own words.
Let’s not think that “Self knows.” He admitted back a few years ago that he didn’t know. That our view of three point shooting was correct and he was wrong. Further, lack of FFs and NCs with consistent top 5 rosters would seem to indicate the man doesn’t have all the answers. We just went a full decade without a national championship and only sniffing it once (2012).
I got to say it man - - you just ride this Final four shit and Championship to death, you have been shown repeatedly, you act like Bill has the patent for not winning a National Championship with top 5 rosters and so on and so on and yada yada yada. So again I’ll say and ask - what the hell would you do if you were a Kentucky fan ? - -Cal has not won any more Championships then Self has during his tenure at Kansas.
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We do need Dave next yr, no question but I’ll throw this out there.
Would anyone want to see Agbaji running the point with his passing and decision making? Now take that and apply this to Dave trying to be a 4 man in this lineup next to Doke. Considering it all I give Dave respect for going out there and trying to be something he is not. The staff clearly felt Dave was one of the 5 best players to start the season and that he earned the starting spot. But now we are in the middle of the season with enough games, data and film to know Dave next to Doke is not working the way we all hoped it would. Its not a total disaster but isnt bringing the team closer to some higher level of play. It is what it is
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Since the year of 2008 : - -Kentucky has been in two National Champion Ship games. They have won ONE National Championship , in the year of 2012 against ? - - - KU. Since 2008 Kentucky has appeared in the final four , four times - - in 2011 , 2012 , 2014 & 2015
Since the year of 2008 :- - Kansas has been in two National Champion Ship games. They have won ONE National Champion Ship , in the year of 2008 against ? - - - Memphis. Since 2008 Kansas has appeared in the final four , three times - - in 2008 , 2012 & 2018
KU two title games starting in 2008 - -and 2018 . Kentucky two title games since 2008 - - -2012 - -and 2014
Yet people wanna bag on Coach Self , again they just don’t hand deliver these things to teams gift wrapped on a golden platter.
Hell if we wanna rant and cuss and holler about Self should be doing more with his talent. Then what the hell should they be saying or what if some people here were Kentucky fans , what would they be saying about Cal ?
You talk about Coach having the top 5 talent he has - - How many times since 2018 has Coach Self had or been ranked higher in the recruiting class over Kentucky’s class’s ? - - ZERO. - But yet same amount of Natty’s and they have a whooping ONE more whooping final four appearance , come on man.
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@jayballer73 Not sure why UK is your point of focus. Why not UNC or Duke? Or Nova? Well, we know why. At least with UK you have some argument. But that proves my point further. With UK you still lose.
If I was a UK fan I’d drive my car off a cliff. That’s what I’d do. But I’d sneak a peak at Ashley Jugs, er, Judd before doing that.
But really, first, I’d look at my eight rings. And then compare to KU’s three as noted above. KU has a touch more urgency to get up with the big boys in that most important arena.
Second, I’d realize that I won one in 2012, this past decade, while KU didn’t.
Third, I’d notice that I went to the FF in 2011, 2012, 2014, and 2015. KU went in 2012 and 2016 while Cal was coaching there.
Fourth, I’d notice that I sniffed the NC twice, winning one (Since Cal arrived). KU sniffed it once.
Fifth, I’d notice that Cal did what he did in six less seasons than Self.
Sixth, I’d notice that I didn’t get busted by the FBI, doing stupid texting, and then lying about it.
But I’d rather have Self than Cal. That’s not a discussion point for me. His lying related to the FBI has made me waver a bit on things though generally.
Obviously you see a factual statement or an slight as being that “people want to bag on Self.” I’ll bag on Self if I want to. Just the facts. And many facts weigh in Self’s favor.
Instead of responding like a fool and cursing, and claiming folks are “rant and cuss and holler” or whatever you tried to say, maybe remove your lips from Self’s backside and breath.
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@HighEliteMajor Pretty sure “massaging players’ egos” is a fairly large part of Self’s job. You can’t complain about “transfer u,” “not developing talent for next year,” and Self giving DM minutes. He’s not even getting huge minutes!
You have no way of knowing whether David or Moss will have more of an influence on this team winning a national championship. Can you honestly say Moss has a higher ceiling than David? Does Moss give us a better chance of winning games right now? Sure. But I thought that didn’t matter to you.
We’ve seen Mosses best game. He can make six threes and score 20 points. David can go for 28 and 10 and totally dominate a game. Is he doing that every night? No. But he can. He has the higher ceiling and needs to be getting minutes. I personally would rather they happen at the beginning of the game than the end but I can see it both ways.
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HighEliteMajor said:
If I was a UK fan I’d drive my car off a cliff. That’s what I’d do. But I’d sneak a peak at Ashley Jugs, er, Judd before doing that.
You could try being a decent human being…
