Official Player Declarations Thread
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K.J. is not nba material… more playing time may or may not help his overseas pro career. Kansas has so many positives for him. The coaching, the top tier program, more time with Hudy… or yes he could play more somewhere else, certainly not a blues blood school, but somewhere where his style and size are needed. You know, committing to relentless D and learning team ball, challenging himself would get him playing time. Marcus garret gets a lot of minutes in those qualities alone, why not K.J.?
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@nuleafjhawk that’s the sad part, he really wasn’t tho.
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@BeddieKU23 I dont care if Grimes leaves. Overrated. Total ambivalence toward him. Fill the slot with another Och that will stay and we will shower with love and roses in 4 years. I am sick of the prima donna OADs.
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Grimes Freshman year almost mirrors Wayne Selden’s to a T. Wayne was also a Top 15 recruit and stuck around 3 years.
I can understand your frustration towards Grimes. I can’t say he’s done anything “pre-madonna” though. You wouldn’t want a 2nd year to see what the staff could do with him?
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It would probably help if the staff made him a full time undersized 4 man. He’s too slow to guard the perimeter. He can rebound and score inside and his outside shot was all sorts of inconsistent. Wouldn’t be a bad back up to say Matthew Hurt…
The reason I think he looks elsewhere is simple most brothers that go to the same schools leave together. You see it everywhere across the nation.
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Bosthawk said:
K.J. ? Really ? Why would he leave a top program? ? Makes no sense at all to me… he will get playing time here. He got better over the year, and there are many many positives for sticking with a top program.
Grimes leaving would be a flat out joke. My god. For what? d-league money and anonymity…? He is nowhere NEAR pro level. Where is Newman now ? D-league right? Newman was better than Grimes. If he leaves, then my advice to the coaching staff- avoid guys like him like the plague. Get guys who want to play for Kansas and to learn the game under self, not guys who think it’s an ok stop before they “ supposedly”go to the pros.
And why wouldn’t Doke want one more year under self, under the bright spotlight of a blue-blood college program… overseas can wait one more year for a 20 year old.
The unfortunate reality is Kansas is just a hub for these guys professional careers. When you put so many guys into the NBA or into professional careers overseas, logic really doesn’t apply when it comes to guys staying or leaving. There are more options becoming available every year and players have more leverage then they have ever had. 5 years ago most of these guys would likely have stayed and it wouldn’t really be a question. Now every player down to the ball boy needs to be asked whether they are returning or not. For better or worse this is where we are now
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Every year this happens with fans. There are so many other circumstances that play into whether a kid goes pro / transfers or not. It is NOT all about the NBA for some of these guys. Sure they would all love to play there, but there are so many other avenues to collect generous pay checks and play the game of basketball.
If someone offered you half a million dollars to play basketball in Australia or Europe are you going to turn that down? In regards to Doke it has been said he will have a robust market overseas and make at least that.
I’m guilty of it as well , but fans have to take the fandom glasses off and think about this rationally. Sure there are going to be awful decisions as there is every year across college basketball, but that’s life. If a kid wants to move on and thinks that is best for him and his family then best wishes to them. Let’s get someone in here that wants to be here and will buy into the team 100%. Having another Vick situation is not healthy for the program.
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@wissox asks the tough question…
I believe he stays and sees the investigation/repurcussions thru
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@wissox Self’s statements were reassuring from his end, just read at face value. We’ve heard many times that in other instances, when someone says “I’m not leaving”, they leave; or the dreaded vote of confidence by an AD or GM, that ends in a firing. But who knows. Self’s statement could be read many ways, and one way is a precursor to issues with the university. But that is just one of many ways to read it, and a negative way. A concern is also from the university end, what is known behind closed doors, what has not become public, what is their intentions, etc. Just haven’t heard. Too much uncertainty right now to even know.
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@Fightsongwriter I am DOA (done and over) the OAD’s as well. It might be different if we had one that actually made our team better instead of making it worse. The only one I can think of in recent years that even came close was Josh Jackson, but I’m still not sold.
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This was my post way back in 2014 –
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Bosthawk said:
K.J. is not nba material… more playing time may or may not help his overseas pro career. Kansas has so many positives for him. The coaching, the top tier program, more time with Hudy… or yes he could play more somewhere else, certainly not a blues blood school, but somewhere where his style and size are needed. You know, committing to relentless D and learning team ball, challenging himself would get him playing time. Marcus garret gets a lot of minutes in those qualities alone, why not K.J.?
bottom line plain and simple - - KJ isn’t coming back. - -His minutes will not be increased. - He will never be the defender that Marcus is - - -and chances are with what w got coming back - who’s spot is he gonna take additional minutes from.- - -?
You put that with Dedric leaving - - and he is leaving make no doubt about that - -KJ very close to his brother - - - - -KJ gonna be a grad -he will transfer - -play his one year being a grad transfer - and getting more minutes - -won’t be at a blue blood school - he will transfer to another school where they can really put his minutes to use - -he not coming back here with limited minutes again when he can go else where. - There is many of school he can transfer to where they will play him with his limited Defense or not - they will still play him -He is not coming back. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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K.J. needs a degree. If he has that there isn’t much left for him in NCAA basketball other than the fun of playing at the highest level he ever will.
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@HighEliteMajor That was a very good post back in 2014. I didn’t reply directly to you, but this was my response to that post back then:
nuleafjhawk Apr 15, 2014, 6:13 AM I think there’s room for everyone.
We can have the solid four year guys that want to get an education and play a high level of Division I college basketball.
Then we can have a whole separate league of OAD’s. They could all be on travelling teams sponsored by Barnum and Bailey.
" What in the wide, wide world of sports is a goin on here ? "
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I think a lot of KJ’s decision side on if Self wants him back at this point. KJ will be able to graduate this semester according to Matt Tate and he is getting married this summer. So he may just decide to be done with basketball or if Chuck and Grimes move on, and Self doesn’t land a couple other guys. I could see a scenario that he says but you never know what he has planned going forward. KJ isn’t a great player but I always thought he played hard and I do appreciate that from him.
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This is becoming a joke nowadays. Only Dotson and Agbaji have NBA POTENTIAL… Dedric is a REALLY low level athlete and has ZERO shot at the NBA. His skill wont carry him beyond that shortcoming.
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@BigBad It is not all about the NBA. You can earn money other places. Why is this so hard to grasp.
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@Woodrow I’m well aware. Besides the NBA, this level of basketball is the highest where there are actual crowds and its still fun. Put a lie detector test on everyone who left early and I’d bet 95% wish they hadn’t.
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Woodrow said:
If someone offered you half a million dollars to play basketball in Australia or Europe are you going to turn that down? In regards to Doke it has been said he will have a robust market overseas and make at least that.
NONE of these guys are making that. It took YEARS for Langford to make that and he was a league MVP.
I know SEVERAL european pros from where I live and they never made that. A guy who went to my High School ended up the all time leading scorer for a D-1 program. He played in Europe for 8 years. He is a real estate agent now. They dont make set for life money.
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@BigBad Langford has made well over a million dollars a year for quite sometime now.
For a couple years he was the highest paid player in Europe.
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I honestly dont give a rats ass about these guys. The sad fact is a lot of them “go to college” and can barely speak passable English. Then they leave early out of pressure of supporting their entire family. I’m sick of the low expectations put on the young kids today. Forget bettering yourself as a human being, just go chase money with no other skills but low level pro basketball ones.
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@BigBad I think Dedric could make a good living over seas for sure, but I agree it will be tough for him to make in the NBA. I hope for him that he is drafted and at least gets a chance to live his dream. I’m not sure if Grimes has the athletic ability to play in the NBA, he has to fine his stroke from distance to get much of a look IMO. Dotson will get drafted in a few years, he’s ahead of when Jacque, Frank and Aaron Miles were during their freshman seasons IMO. Which says a lot about what he could be in the near future. Ochai is prob a lottery a pick in a couple of years IMO. He did pretty darn good for a recruit ranked in the 130s and being thrown into the mix mid season. I’d bet he leads us in 3 point percentage and scoring next season. We’ve heard both Self and Fran talk about how he is the most athletic guy on the team, give the fella a year or two and he’ll be damn good. Doke isn’t on any draft boards that I’ve seen and really doesn’t fit the mold of a Center in the league nowadays but he also could make a good living over seas and I wouldn’t blame him if he left to try it out. He’s been injured for over half of his time in a Kansas uniform and it tough for me to believe he could be healthy for a full season here. SDS is probably leaves if his suspension isn’t lessened, I could see him trying to wait it out if they say he can next season or the second semester next year. I do agree with your assessment of guys wishing they would’ve stayed. Think of how much better we could’ve been this season if we had Newman’s shooting and he’s just bouncing around the G league now. I get guys like Selby leaving because their family was poor and needed whatever he could get but the guys like Henry, Newman, Wright and a few probably wish’d they’d stayed at this point. Sometimes I wish these kids would look at some of guys before them’s mistakes. I have no problem with a guy that is projected in round 1 going, they are gaunteed a contract for 3 years while undrafted and second rounders are not.
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@Woodrow International leagues cap how many Americans are allowed per team and the average salary of an American player is typically between $75,000-100,000 per year. Only the elite of the elite Euro players make a million or more per year.
Doke would probably start around $100,000 in Europe.
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BigBad said:
I honestly dont give a rats ass about these guys. The sad fact is a lot of them “go to college” and can barely speak passable English. Then they leave early out of pressure of supporting their entire family. I’m sick of the low expectations put on the young kids today. Forget bettering yourself as a human being, just go chase money with no other skills but low level pro basketball ones.
idk about you man but if my family was borderline homeless and I had an opportunity to really help them out ASAP I’d do it in a heartbeat. Thankfully I’ve never had to make that choice and getting an education has been a tremendous privilege. Some aren’t so lucky.
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We have several guys that have come back to finish their degrees! Door is always open.
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@FarmerJayhawk PHOF!! I’ve seen first hand what an athletic scholarship can lead to kids who’d have no other hope to get into college. I’ve also seen with kids like Ben Mclemore what can happen for a kid who grew up as poor as anyone can imagine who does earn a pro contract. Even the pro minimum for several years will get that kid and his family out deep financial problems.
As much as I hate it when kids like Josh Jackson or Kelly Oubre leave early, I don’t blame them. I also love it when kids like Frank Kaminsky say I’m coming back for my senior year because another year in college is better than playing in half full NBA gyms.
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
We have several guys that have come back to finish their degrees! Door is always open.
This is a great point. KU and most power conference programs honor the kid’s scholarship if he ever wants to come back and finish. Ben finished his eventually if memory serves. I know for sure he was working on it. But he was a one and done so must be a terrible thing for the program
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FarmerJayhawk said:
BigBad said:
I honestly dont give a rats ass about these guys. The sad fact is a lot of them “go to college” and can barely speak passable English. Then they leave early out of pressure of supporting their entire family. I’m sick of the low expectations put on the young kids today. Forget bettering yourself as a human being, just go chase money with no other skills but low level pro basketball ones.
idk about you man but if my family was borderline homeless and I had an opportunity to really help them out ASAP I’d do it in a heartbeat. Thankfully I’ve never had to make that choice and getting an education has been a tremendous privilege. Some aren’t so lucky.
Agree with what you have to say. - -Kinda of funny how people need money to survive - -huh? - like you say if these kids family - - Mother/farther - -siblings struggle - -you dam straight I’m going to make that money to help my family. -People can call me what they want - -my family is my Everything - -period. - -" FOE " - -family over everything
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Well this thread got cray.
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BShark said:
Well this thread got cray.
Apparently kids making money when they can instead of being unpaid labor for their favorite basketball team is a controversial topic!
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@FarmerJayhawk I know there are more, but I remember Cole did too.
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@FarmerJayhawk Perpetuating the myth of unpaid labor are we?
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk Perpetuating the myth of unpaid labor are we?
I mean… if a job where you’re forbidden from making income is by definition unpaid… and scholarships aren’t income. I don’t pay taxes on it, it doesn’t go on my W2, and it doesn’t affect my income tax bill. At all. Neither does their minuscule stipend. If you really want to go nuts with it, you can say they’re compensated in kind, which is fair. But they’re certainly unpaid using the Haig-Simmons (economic) definition of income, consumption plus change in net worth. Student-athletes can’t accept any income that would increase their ability to consume, let alone increase wealth.
I’m an economist by trade and it sure as hell strikes me as unpaid since being a college athlete does not increase your ability to consume. But there is some non-monetary compensation, which fine I guess? If you really want to go nuts, slaves were given non-monetary compensation for their labor and nobody says they were paid.
tl;dr: compensation /=/ income. Athletes aren’t getting any monetary benefit from playing and can’t accept any monetary benefit from playing. Unless you have a different definition?
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@FarmerJayhawk So you actually invoked the word “slaves”? Think this through, my friend. The truth is out there. It all begins with the word “choice.”
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@FarmerJayhawk You’re right, college athletes are unpaid, but that slavery comparison is way out of line and way off base.
College athletes may not be paid financially for what they provide a school, but they certainly are not uncompensated for their services. These players, all sports and genders, are provided with thousands of dollars of free apparel from whoever sponsors the school, Adidas in the case of KU athletes. The retail price of an athletes regular wardrobe is easily $200+ dollars in the summer time and $350+ in the winter time.
A full scholarship athlete who stays all 4 years is being compensated with at least $125,000 in free tuition, room and board, and dining during those 4 years along with networking opportunities the vast majority of regular students don’t have access to.
Todd Reesing does not get the job he has working for David Booth’s company without being Todd Reesing.
I would have loved to have been able to afford anything Adidas released while I was a student at KU instead of shopping the clearance sections of the bookstore for KU apparel. I would have loved to have been able to network with David Booth and other high end boosters and alums while at KU, but I had to go the job fairs and compete with all the other regular students for intern and job opportunities after graduation.
A lot of these athletes on full ride scholarships are kids that wouldn’t have been able to go to college on their own otherwise because of financial issues beyond their own control.
Do I think there should be some changes made to the current system? Absolutely, but you cannot realistically tell me these athletes aren’t compensated for their services to their school.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@FarmerJayhawk So you actually invoked the word “slaves”? Think this through, my friend. The truth is out there. It all begins with the word “choice.”
I did! As a similar condition where they were compensated in-kind and not allowed to make income outside their little fiefdom. To be clear, comparing the plight of a KU player to that of a slave in the antebellum South isn’t great, but it’s an example to show that in-kind compensation is sufficient for a just labor market.
I get the choice argument in that they aren’t required to attend college. I’m a libertarian for chrissakes. But you’re talking about two different concepts. One, is the individual required to attend college to make a living playing basketball? No, of course not. So there’s nothing preventing the player from getting paid to play basketball. Two, if the individual attends college to play basketball, are they paid while attending? Also no.
It’s a normative question about whether the student-athlete should be paid in some form. My feeling is yes. They should be able to command what the market will pay from anyone who’s willing to pay them, including shoe companies, universities, the G League, NBA, international teams, or the freaking Globetrotters. The NCAA member institutions should be able to play in this sandbox too. The NCAA and member institutions take in billions in TV and merch revenue each year, so how about they use that to actually pay student-athletes what they could command if there wasn’t a price ceiling of zero?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I literally said they were compensated, even in the tl;dr version. Unless “But there is some non-monetary compensation, which fine I guess?” isn’t clear enough for you.
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HighEliteMajor said:
This was my post way back in 2014 –
Thanks for the memory. I miss the more thorough analysis of posts of that period of Buckets. You were a big part of that.
Strong PoV. Sound analysis to support. And sure, they sometimes got some pointed (sometimes too personal) responses. But a lot gave a counter PoV that was helpful to better analyze the game and team we all love.
Also, know that it was a huge investment of time and thought on several posters part most notbly yourself and a few others. So thank!
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We should start a FAN Declaration thread. Except we’d have the same issues with any other team. Our society has deemed that a player’s potential is worth more than his actual worth. The players and their families are exceptionally greedy - I don’t buy the sob story that they’re poor and need the money - if they’ve been broke for 18 years, they can make it another 3 years and then they and their families really will be set for life (assuming they have a good agent and financial advisors).
I’d bet money (because I’m exceptionally greedy…) that if you polled 100 players that had gone the OAD route, at least 80 of them (the 80 that are sitting on the bench or playing in Madagascar) would tell current students - STAY IN COLLEGE. Have some fun. Enjoy your life. This is a JOB.
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Here’s something interesting about Lawson’s chances of sticking in the NBA.
He ranks #8 in WARP, Wins above Replacement level at 1.9.
6 of the 7 above him will likely go in the lottery. One, (Haliburton of ISU) will likely return to College.
We know his limitations as an athlete but analytics say he’ll do just fine in the NBA.
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Lawson feasts on matchups he won’t have in the NBA. I wish him the best, but it’s likely overseas.
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@BeddieKU23 The eye test says: “Negatory.”
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@nuleafjhawk Spot on.
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Oh well so it starts. - A poster of the Phog - -posted that someone had a screen shot of Grimes at KCI airport - - -Bags Packed.
OH NO ! ! ! ! - Quentin at KCI with bags packed? - -Well this is it – he is gone lmao. - -Couldn’t be going to Texas for extended weekend seeing his Mom or any other GaZillon things - - JUMPIN - - GEE – HOSSA - - -FATS - -surely not. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Bag, adidas bag
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Not that there was much doubt, but Ochai posted this today.
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Woodrow said:
Not that there was much doubt, but Ochai posted this today.
IT DID NOT MEAN ANYTHING BAD
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nuleafjhawk said:
We should start a FAN Declaration thread. Except we’d have the same issues with any other team. Our society has deemed that a player’s potential is worth more than his actual worth. The players and their families are exceptionally greedy - I don’t buy the sob story that they’re poor and need the money - if they’ve been broke for 18 years, they can make it another 3 years and then they and their families really will be set for life (assuming they have a good agent and financial advisors).
I’d bet money (because I’m exceptionally greedy…) that if you polled 100 players that had gone the OAD route, at least 80 of them (the 80 that are sitting on the bench or playing in Madagascar) would tell current students - STAY IN COLLEGE. Have some fun. Enjoy your life. This is a JOB.
Seems to me calling players and families you know little about other than what you see on TV “exceptionally greedy” is a bit much. Also, maybe if you’ve been broke for ONE year you’d know “making another 3” isn’t really an option. The complete disregard for other people in this post is gross. Learn some empathy friend.
Also, people talk about potential vs. actual worth a lot. Truth is, a dollar now is worth more than a potential dollar in the future. I see posters writing about how this player or that should come back so they can make more money later, but there is absolutely ZERO guarantee of that. It’s completely in the realm of possibility that let’s say Grimes comes back, has a similar season to this one and his draft stock goes DOWN. Add to that potential for injury and yeah, I’m not going to judge (call greedy) any kid that makes a decision he/she thinks is best for their future.
You say “stay in college. Have some fun. Enjoy your life.” Maybe for that person it’s not fun and they are trying to enjoy their life.
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@benshawks08 Well, i had to take some time to think about what you said. After looking at it, i definitely could have worded it better. A LOT better. I said I had to take some time to think about it because when you mentioned the lack of empathy, it kind of got to me. In real life (as opposed to an anonymous basketball blog life) I do consider myself to be empathetic. I’m a Christian and I take the way I talk to and treat people very seriously. Having said that, that also means I’m a human and we tend to goof up sometimes. I slipped on that post and I apologize.
I’m still not a fan of the OAD thing, but I"ll try to really watch what I say from now on in regards to those kinds of things.
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@nuleafjhawk The only reason I think I responded really was because it surprised me coming from you. I don’t post on here a whole lot but I do keep up with the threads I find interesting. I’ve grown to expect certain things from certain posters and was caught off guard. Thanks for really thinking and not clapping back like anonymous posters are sometimes wont to do.
I’m a teacher so empathy is pretty important to me too. As I’m currently helping kids make decisions about going to college and what they can and can’t afford I’m ALWAYS amazed at the struggle so many of my kids go through that nobody ever sees. You can just never tell what another person is going through at any given moment. I see the value in a degree and do what I can to help my students understand that value but other needs have to be met first before anyone can go out and try to better themselves and improve their future earning power. The poorer you are, the less opportunity you have to invest in yourself and the future. Privilege of all kinds are real and a lot of our current systems are set up to continue to benefit those that have over those that don’t.
