The Death Of College Basketball
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It wouldn’t kill CBB. Just become a nightmare for coaches. I don’t agree with the proposed rule change. I do agree players should be able to leave if their coach leaves. But that’s almost as crazy has suggesting teams play a 3rd exhibition charity game to raise money for hurricane relief. The NCAA will NEVER go for that.
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I’ve tried, but I really don’t get the objections to immediate eligibility for transfers. I can leave my university tomorrow and start work during the spring semester, but an athlete has to wait a year? Makes no sense to me given how easy the logistics are for everyone.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
I’ve tried, but I really don’t get the objections to immediate eligibility for transfers. I can leave my university tomorrow and start work during the spring semester, but an athlete has to wait a year? Makes no sense to me given how easy the logistics are for everyone.
The NCAA likes to say that the student part of student-athlete comes first, but that’s really just fancy PR. If I transfer from one university to another I can compete in any number of academic competitions (even those that give scholarships) without sitting out or losing eligibility.
But for some reason, the student loses that agency when they play a sport.
Open transfer also holds coaches to their word in recruiting. You have to deliver on what you promise, otherwise the student athlete can transfer.
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Coaches have to deliver what they promise, but the athletes do not? This rule basically would make college sports a cluster F. I think Self has said this, but the handshake lines at games would basically turn into recruiting. I just do not see the benefit in this for the game. Nobody is making these kids go to college and play. That is their choice and they are getting to do it for free and live a better life than 99% of them will ever live.
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Scholarships are a one year thing that can be renewed year to year (but are not required to be renewed). Therefore, if an athlete attends a school for a year and leaves in good academic standing, they will have delivered on what they promised.
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And coaches absolutely kick players to the curb. Self has done it many times.
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I understand how scholarships work. @BShark has Self ever “kicked a player to the curb” for no reason?
Usually when players transfer and it is the school forcing them out it is because of something they have done. It is not like Self is out here booting Graham, Wiggins, TRob, etc…
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@Woodrow Players don’t just wantonly transfer either. There is a reason. Coaches lie about playing time etc… Your assertion that coaches have to deliver but players do not is disingenuous. Either party can and does decide to move on. Is it fair to Cunliffe that he has to sit out a year after being squeezed out of the program?
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@Woodrow Cunliffe. Maxwell. Greene. Adams. Bragg. Tharpe. CJ Henry. Appelton. Quintrell Thomas. CJ Giles.
Maybe not all those guys got “kicked to the curb.” But Bill made sure they could see the writing on the wall. Even if any of those guys wanted to stay, it wasn’t really their choice.
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@Kcmatt7 And I will submit that Maxwell, Adams and Cunliffe should have never been takes in the first place. Cunliffe was Svi desperation insurance, Adams was a complete head case and Maxwell was so far from KU level (he ended up at a NAIA D2 school). And please, no one bring up the Maxwell’s brother myth. That was never a thing. CJ was obviously only here as long as X was.
What happened to Appleton? I know he was at KU for one year but did he just quit basketball after that?
The rest were legit-ish recruits that just didn’t work out which happens.
Whitman was another baffling take. No more Whitmans or Maxwells please Bill. Unless they are okay with being a practice player or are a walk-on of course.
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When you come to a place like KU you have to understand that you either work hard get better or you are probably not going to play. That is just how the game works. Coaches are trying to win. How do you win… You recruit the best players possible and players that fit your program.
@Kcmatt7 So you don’t think Greene, Adams, Bragg, Tharpe, or Giles did anything and just got a raw deal. Give me a break. We have a open scholarship this year. If Cunliffe wanted to stay and sit on the bench he could have.
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I agree with you. Most of the transfers are not because a players is forced out but because he expects playing time that is just not available and they choose to move to programs where they expect to get more playing time to showcase their “skills” for the next level. The truth is that if a player is not good enough to get plaything time at KU, his chances of making it to the NBA are slim to none; even the starters and stars have a hard time getting to the next level; frankly, a bench warmer will have a better chance in life with a college degree than trying to make it to the NBA.
The part that is missed is that the NCAA also has an obligation to at least try to help student get an education while playing sports. Most schools require that the last 2 years are done in residence at the institution and a certain number of school credit (at least half) required for graduation be earned there. Having an open transfer policy will ultimately result in some students having credits in several schools and after 4 or 5 years not enough in one to graduate. Having a transfer player sit one year forces him to stay at one school for at least 2 years and gives him a fighting chance to get a degree…not a bad thing. Graduate transfers already have a degree so this is likely why they do not need to sit one year.
Just my opinion but I am open to other views.
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Woodrow said:
When you come to a place like KU you have to understand that you either work hard get better or you are probably not going to play. That is just how the game works. Coaches are trying to win. How do you win… You recruit the best players possible and players that fit your program.
@Kcmatt7 So you don’t think Greene, Adams, Bragg, Tharpe, or Giles did anything and just got a raw deal. Give me a break. We have a open scholarship this year. If Cunliffe wanted to stay and sit on the bench he could have.
Oh come on. Yes KU recruits the best players they can, that’s why I have no issue with players leaving or being shown the door if they aren’t good enough. But then these players should be forced to sit a year? That’s crap. It’s a huge double standard.
Yeah Cunliffe could have stayed on the bench, but players want to play. You are being disingenuous again here. At best Cunliffe was probably mislead by the KU coaching staff when he decided to transfer here. Of course given Cunliffe’s history and leaving anywhere when the going gets tough I again stress that he was a very poor and desperate addition by the staff. It was never going to work out. I’m glad he is gone and wish him the best at Evansville but I bet he doesn’t do much there.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I agree with you. Most of the transfers are not because a players is forced out but because he expects playing time that is just not available and they choose to move to programs where they expect to get more playing time to showcase their “skills” for the next level. The truth is that if a player is not good enough to get plaything time at KU, his chances of making it to the NBA are slim to none; even the starters and stars have a hard time getting to the next level; frankly, a bench warmer will have a better chance in life with a college degree than trying to make it to the NBA.
The part that is missed is that the NCAA also has an obligation to at least try to help student get an education while playing sports. Most schools require that the last 2 years are done in residence at the institution and a certain number of school credit (at least half) required for graduation be earned there. Having an open transfer policy will ultimately result in some students having credits in several schools and after 4 or 5 years not enough in one to graduate. Having a transfer player sit one year forces him to stay at one school for at least 2 years and gives him a fighting chance to get a degree…not a bad thing. Graduate transfers already have a degree so this is likely why they do not need to sit one year.
Just my opinion but I am open to other views.
I think the best question is why Self added the likes of Adams, Peters, Cunliffe, Maxwell, Whitman, Merv, Royce etc… in the first place.
A few quit basketball all together and most graduated. Time well tell what happens with Cunliffe.
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So apparently Appleton transferred to SW Baptist in Missouri but never played due to his bad hip then tried to play at Midwestern State in Texas after taking a year off. Not sure if he ever ended up playing there or not. I just checked two years of their box scores within that time frame and didn’t see Appleton in any box score so I would guess not.
Also thought this was interesting. I forgot about a couple of these guys.
https://www.rockchalktalk.com/2015/3/9/8177355/analyzing-ku-s-transfers-part-two-outgoing
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@Woodrow I didn’t say they got a raw deal. I’m just pointing out that not every player that leaves really had a choice. That’s all.
I’d even be in favor of coaches having the ability to grant a waiver that allows certain players to transfer without sitting. If it is a mutual thing or it just didn’t pan out, coaches could let players transfer without sitting at all. But it would be up to the coach.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@Woodrow I didn’t say they got a raw deal. I’m just pointing out that not every player that leaves really had a choice. That’s all.
I’d even be in favor of coaches having the ability to grant a waiver that allows certain players to transfer without sitting. If it is a mutual thing or it just didn’t pan out, coaches could let players transfer without sitting at all. But it would be up to the coach.
This would be a great step. I’d bet Cunliffe would have got it from Self too, because he would have been the 13th guy/last spot on the bench this year.
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@BShark I think Self would have let several guys leave.
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While the team uses only players 5 players at the time at game time it needs more to operate effectively and even more to practice. KU was at one time using grad assistants and equipment managers because the lack of players. Most programs typically carry a lot more players than the available scholarships. The players you mentioned were likely told what their role would be and that they would have a chance to prove themselves and perhaps even earn playing time or a starting position but once they got to campus they realized they were completely out of their league and the chances of earning playing time were very small they chose to leave. Some marginal recruit or even walk-ons actually earn not only playing time but starting roles, see Moody, Teahan.
I am not sure what do you expect a coach to do, not recruit a top prospect because you already have an average player or two at that position? I think not. Coaches will play the players that give the team the best chance to win; if a player does not believe he is capable to compete at that high level then he should not go to an elite program and expect playing time. Playing time is not an entitlement (considering the current environment, in the near future it might become one
), it is something that is earned.I get that players like White sometimes get caught in the crossfire but that is true in most everything in life.
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@JayHawkFanToo I never said what you are insinuating I did. I literally said KU can and should recruit the best possible players but that marginal players shouldn’t be penalized for leaving (if they even had a choice to begin with). Of course playing time isn’t guaranteed, but coaches LIE all the time about a players prospects/potential to get them on board. They can be misled by a smooth talking coach. Or coaches simply mis-evaluate a player.
I’m baffled at the points you are making when I never said otherwise. I’m not even sure of the point you were trying to make or what you were trying to convince me of? I get that coaches need enough players to practice. Otoh kids want to play. Situations like Mitch where a kid good enough to play at a lower level but wants to tough it out for a 4 year bench career at KU are most assuredly the exception.
I don’t see how it would hurt anyone to implement what @Kcmatt7 suggested.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think the porn mustache did Whitman in…
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I think the best question is why Self added the likes of Adams, Peters, Cunliffe, Maxwell, Whitman, Merv, Royce etc… in the first place.
In reading your posts I got the impression that you believe Coach Self misled players into thinking they would have a bigger role at KU and then they were let go when there is no evidence of that happening.
My personal opinion is that he thought they could be good practice players that might be able to contribute and even earn playing time “IF” they developed as hoped. Coach Self is not know for promising playing time to players and he has always stated for the record that players need to earn playing time, particularly by playing defense.
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KUSTEVE said:
@JayHawkFanToo I think the porn mustache did Whitman in…
Oh come on…the throwback porn “stache” was cool.
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@JayHawkFanToo Fair enough. None of us know 100% what Self actually told those players that ended up transferring because neither the coaching staff or players are ever going to put it out there. We also don’t technically know which players left of their own accord and which were kicked out. So all we can do is read the tea leaves and speculate on it like you are doing as well when you say your personal opinion.
I am VERY confident that Self has promised minutes (specifically to Grimes, Dotson and JRE), but you don’t have to believe me of course and that’s never going to be public knowledge put out there by Self or players.
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@BShark If Self has promised any recruits playing time, thank goodness he apparently doesn’t let the promise override adhering to team rules. Or Preston would have played the first game he was suspended for, and things might have gone differently. Perhaps no car crash, perhaps he played a lot of games, perhaps we would have been screwed.
I believe Preston needs to be an exception to the “always a Jayhawk” rule.
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mayjay said:
@BShark If Self has promised any recruits playing time, thank goodness he apparently doesn’t let the promise override adhering to team rules. Or Preston would have played the first game he was suspended for, and things might have gone differently. Perhaps no car crash, perhaps he played a lot of games, perhaps we would have been screwed.
I believe Preston needs to be an exception to the “always a Jayhawk” rule.
I don’t know if Preston was promised anything, besides 90k from Adidas of course.
Agree with you. At first I kinda felt sorry for him but with all the info out there now, especially the text from his mom about misleading KU coaches, I don’t really care anymore.
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Agreed. There was talk that PT was promised to Wiggins but his recruitment was so different than any other that it is hard to tell. Also Oubre was thought to have been promised to take over Wiggins spot but in reality he had to earn the position…which he did. On a side note, Oubre has developed into a solid NBA player and doing well at Washington and will soon be a starter.
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@mayjay You don’t get to choose your parents unfortunately. I liked Billy a lot leading up to the season.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@mayjay You don’t get to choose your parents unfortunately. I liked Billy a lot leading up to the season.
His mom is definitely a real piece of work.
JayHawkFanToo said:
Agreed. There was talk that PT was promised to Wiggins but his recruitment was so different than any other that it is hard to tell. Also Oubre was thought to have been promised to take over Wiggins spot but in reality he had to earn the position…which he did. On a side note, Oubre has developed into a solid NBA player and doing well at Washington and will soon be a starter.
Yeah, Oubre is really good. It would have been cool to see him develop and play a 2nd or 3rd year at KU but I always understand when players just want to start making their money.
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@BShark A truly awful person. Her twitter rants during this and now all the texts and payments that have come out… Ooooh boy. Cost her and her son millions of dollars.
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I believe the mother bears the brunt of the responsibility. Very few kids that age will go against their moms even in what seems like a very unconventional situation.
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@BShark It would have been cool to get to know Oubre. A classic line and indictment of OAD’s.
The death of college basketball started with OAD’s. This was the original scourge on our game.
I looked at some of these mock draft sites today and they list freshman after freshman. Yet to miss their first crunch time FT, and here they are all touted as 1st rounders. Got to go to the 2nd round to find any seniors. No need to rehash this whole theme but this is the worst development in our game. By far. Not even close.
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I’m all for removing OAD. Let the kids that want to go straight to the NBA do so.
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@BShark I think that’s the best thing to do and will help with the money funneling in from the shoe companies.
