Vick Coming Back
-
@KirkIsMyHinrich That is an excellent prediction, although as the president of the Charlie Moore Fan Club, I was thinking it would be Charlie at 24 minutes, and Cunliffe redshirts.
-
@Kcmatt7 and do we know if that vote was unanimous?
-
@mayjay Are you calling me oversensative?
I saw a sign that said: Todayâs forecastâŠjust stay inside.
-
@Fightsongwriter Who, me? calling someone oversensitive? I would know --it is in my âtakes one to know oneâ catalog. It is amazing how easy it is to see that mote in someone elseâs eyeâŠ
-
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They donât lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajorâs reference to Selfâs comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass âover the topâ and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
-
Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vickâs handles last year, worse than EJâs who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesnât point that way.
âââââ
No, Iâm saying Bill and LB think he has point guard potential and they trump the nobs you refer to.
When Bill said he wasnât a PG he was apparently saying yet, and in any conventional sense.
Next, Vick looked frustrated part of last season. The guy clearly wants to play the point and likely came to KU at Larryâs suggestion to do so, when things got sticky in Dallas for whatever reason.
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank, EJ all had bad handles. Handles come with development. Handles often look bad when you are playing out of position. Vick has Speed like TT. An after burner like Frank. A trey gun like Devonte. Taller than any pg weâve had. Able to play baseline or high against a zone. Able to guard anyone on the perimeter. He mastered the 2 last season before and after he went in his funk with Selfâs toughening box time and his leg dragging injury.
Vickâs weakness is not handles. Itâs his focus and sustaining it. Itâs his difficulty with adopting and controlling command presence to lead. Self apparently questioned all of that and dared him to become what he wasnât, and Vick cracked for a while. Big deal. Self cracks guys all the time.
This team desperately needs Vick and he needs them.
Vick will play some point for sure. The question is how much? A lot or a little. It depends on Vick deciding if he wants to make the ultimate sacrifice and become a team leader PG between his ears, not just below the neck. Becoming a leader is very tough for some.
Vick can help the team as a domestique 2 again. But he can make it great if he were to become the point that Larry foresaw.
Vick may fail the test. He appears to be very idiosyncratic. But great talent that coincidentally would be exactly what the team needs; that kind of player has to be gambled on for the team to reach its full potential.
Self tends to take such risk.
-
BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is âprimed for a great 4th season at the pointâ. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
Vick wing point initiated last season, brought the ball up some, and guarded everyone. He was a good passer. He can get to the rim. He will fight a buzz saw. And he can shoot outside, when not in a funk.
His defense guards ties he starts somewhere.
His shot alone guaranties he wing point initiates a lot this season.
If he learns command presence he IS the PG, and we put up with him learning to run a team but if he canât get control of his appearance, body language and stability, then he will be on the wing.
-
jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is âprimed for a great 4th season at the pointâ. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
I donât think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.
ââââââââ
Hail Mary
-
I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Wonât last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Wonât make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are âdifferentâ and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasnât a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didnât have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by seasonâs end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesnât take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick âon a short leashâ taking the treys and being what they already knowâthe domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didnât want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didnât the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They donât lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajorâs reference to Selfâs comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass âover the topâ and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
Self said he isnât a PG.
Proof re Larry Brown or are you just making that up?
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank all had bad handles.
WRONG. Next.
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Wonât last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Wonât make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are âdifferentâ and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasnât a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didnât have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by seasonâs end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesnât take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick âon a short leashâ taking the treys and being what they already knowâthe domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didnât want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didnât the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Tyshawn was always a PG. Next.
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They donât lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank and Tyshawn were listed as PGs by services and KU/Self constantly. Try again.
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Self gets things wrong all the time. He bungled the Diallo situation for one.
-
@jaybate-1.0 Frank had bad handles? Pleeaaaaase
-
Yes, when he arrived, everyone talked about how limited his skills as a PG were.
-
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
ââââââ-
All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
ââââââ-
All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe Iâve simply missed it.
-
What if jaybate is Larry Brown?
-
Diallo is still trying to figure it out!
-
You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
-
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
ââââââ-
All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe Iâve simply missed it.
âââââ-
But of course I dont.
U always leave the best part out.
-
@jaybate-1.0 NO - -jaybate â -NOT hell Mary - -itâs OH jerry lmao. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
mercy me - â mercy me - -mercy me - - - people rippling waters - -seems to be some slight difference of opinions within the trible- -has to be the heat - -or the water lol - -letâs remember as I was told sometime back - -letâs play nice and enjoy - -yes - - yes - - yes thatâs it â looking forward to Vick playing PG lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
-
California water rations maybe.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
âââââ
-
BShark said:
California water rations maybe.
Yes thatâs what it has to be - - some rations. - -And by the way mister - -no firecrackers for you - -you been to agrumentive ( is that even a word lmao ) - -no missleâs - -no Roman Candles no nothing lol
-
The next thread in which I am hoping to follow back and forth disputationness is the one about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
-
@jaybate-1.0 I do seem to remember people suggesting that Frank couldnât play point. I wasnât one of them. His dribbling always looked very tight to me.
-
NBA no has love for Vick. Vick needs home. Bill says drop crap and learn PG. Vick proves in NC season he can team it up and play PG. NBA loves Vick and he is 2nd round pick. Next.
-
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and thatâs been his only role here. The âHurdâ being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vickâs AAU coach. While I donât think heâll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
âHeâs a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said heâs going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,â Hurd said. âHeâs tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. Heâs going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Selfâs stuff. Talent-wise, heâs one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but heâs got to get there and work his butt off,â Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
-
Thx again for further clarification.
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@jaybate-1-0 @BShark @Texas-Hawk-10 There was discussions of Vick being a point guard when he came to Kansas. There is no doubt he was listed as SG and thatâs been his only role here. The âHurdâ being referred to is Nathan Hurd, Vickâs AAU coach. While I donât think heâll play PG this season, it is pretty clear that this was a discussion point.
âHeâs a natural 2-guard, very athletic. Coach Self said heâs going to have him play the 1, 2 and 3,â Hurd said. âHeâs tall enough to play the 3. Two is his natural position, and he can handle the ball well enough to play 1. Heâs going to have to get there, work hard and learn coach Selfâs stuff. Talent-wise, heâs one of the most talented guys on the team as of right now, but heâs got to get there and work his butt off,â Hurd added.
http://m.kusports.com/news/2015/may/18/high-scoring-memphis-guard-lagerald-vick-picks-kan/
Sounds like it was recruit speak at this point. We all can take an educated guess that many coaches will lie to get commits. Calipari and Drew are prime offenders but I wouldnât be surprised if Self made some suspect comments while trying to land a kid.
Like you said, he has only ever been a 2G here and now Self has a natural PG in Dotson and a small guard in Moore that you really donât want playing outside of the 1/2.
-
I agree, recruiting coach speak paraphrased by his HS coach and as far as I can tell not directly by Self. Technically, any player can play any position and in HS is not rare to see a 6â4" player playing Center and a 6â9" player bringing the ball up the court; the better players are also great athletes and so much better than the often weak HS competition that literally can play any position they want somewhat competently.
College is quite different, the competition level is considerably higher and players quickly learn they have a natural position which they will likely play and sometimes, they will play a position different than their natural one if lack of personnel dictates they do and when they do they are often at a disadvantage with opponents playing their natural positions.
If Vick was ever going to play PG, last season would have been his best chance since KU was sorely short at that position, instead, Coach Self decide to ride Graham like a rented mule and played him close to 40 minutes a game with Svi and Newman and occasionally Garret spelling him but I did not see Vick play PG at all.
KU has Moore and Dotson firmly entrenched as PGs and Grimes being next after showing in the FIBA under 18 tournament he could run a team, next candidate would be Garret who actually played PG in HS and after that KJ who has indicated that he is not a big but a big guard that can play and defend positions 1-4. I just donât see a scenario where Vick would play PG at KU, none whatsoeverâŠwishful thinking notwithstanding. If he did not play PG last season there is no way he plays PG this season.
-
I agree with your basic point that the best HS players (the ones that go on to college) can shift around more than they can as they move up the ladder.
That said, Vick played a ton of minutes last year, and as one of KUâs best athletes, he was often asked to play PF because of KUâs lack of depth up front. Last year was probably the worst year for him to get minutes because he was being asked to play up front quite a bit. KU had no lineup where they were better served moving Vick to PG.
These last several KU teams have been guard heavy, but very light up front. If Sam Cunliffe was 6-8 or 6-9, he would have played 18 mpg last season.
-
You can call him a point guard, a shooting guard, a wing, a stretch 4, âŠjust as long as he hits the 3âŠwho cares? Itâs no skin off my nose if Jaybate wants to call him a point guard.
-
Vick will wear #24 this year.
-
-
Woodrow said:
Vick will wear #24 this year.
Thanks.
-
@Woodrow More info out now
Gary Bedore âVerified account @GaryBedore
KU senior Lagerald Vick will wear No. 24 his senior season. His No. 2 had been given to Charlie Moore when Vick declared for the draft. Why No. 24? Taken from Bibleâs Book of Ephesians 4:22-24. Verse 24 is favorite part of passage of Vick and mom, his mom explained.
-
Ephesians 4:22-24 New International Version (NIV) 22 You were taught, with regard to your former way of life, to put off your old self, which is being corrupted by its deceitful desires; 23 to be made new in the attitude of your minds; 24 and to put on the new self, created to be like God in true righteousness and holiness.
-
I see âSelfâ is mentioned twiceâŠoh waitâŠnever mindâŠ
-
@mayjay sounds good!
-
Vick was the ultimate team player in the Duke game to take us to the Final Four. Iâm sure that Self recalled how fantastic Vick has become in the middle of the zone. His pass to Newman in the Overtime was a thing of unselfish beauty. Watch the guys that are coming back this year. De Sousa played the entire overtime and though he threw the ball into the stands, He was a monster on the boards when KU needed him the most. The new guards need to quickly get up to speed on the lob. I hear that Garret is shining in practice.
-
@wrwlumpy Garrett is great. Some people write him off because of his jump shot but in every other way he is at worst above average at basketball.
Also I can rewatch that game rewind any day!
-
Iâm already looking forward to the Grimes to Vick backdoor dunk. Itâs going to be a great season. I canât wait.
-
@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how heâs changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
-
HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark I meant to post about Garrett, but there was some articles written about how heâs changed his jump shot and is working hard to be a better shooter.
http://www.gctelegram.com/sports/20180702/ku-sophomore-garrett-changing-shooting-form
If he gets his shooting numbers up there could be a very real chance he is one of the best couple players on the team.
-
@wrwlumpy after that game I saw on tv, a huge hug from Vick to coach, it was very genuine too.
-
Remember I said the same thing and you though i wasâŠwell⊠âŠstarting the weekend earlyâŠ
