Vick Coming Back
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HighEliteMajor said:
@BShark I was much more interested in the discussions about Vick heading into last season. He was my pick to be our best player last season. I think this could be a huge game changer having him back.
I was just pointing out the “mention.”
“He can play point guard I think” “He’s not a point guard”
Still, it is a mention. And honestly in my brief look earlier I couldn’t find a single one, but I didn’t look terribly hard. Much more on him being a 2 guard plus he has played exclusively 2-4 under Self.
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If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
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Woodrow said:
BShark said:
Interesting…
Soren Petro Verified account @SorenPetro
JESSE NEWELL: Some Kansas players were told a couple of months ago that Vick was gone. Now they’re stuck there. There could be a couple guys on the team that wish they could go elsewhere now.
I saw this as well. I think Cunliffe is one guy who might have transferred again and just lost a year of eligibility, but I’m not sure who else he would be talking about…
Possibly Garrett, but he doesn’t seem like the type.
I’m going to listen to the entire Newell segment now and see if there are more nuggets.
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BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
I don’t think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.
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Guaranteed? No.
Probable? Yes.
The most likely starting lineup is Dotson-Grimes-KJ-Dedric-Doke.
I could certainly see some other lineups (swap Moore for Dotson above, or swap Vick for KJ above, or both), but I think Doke factors in because he is such a big matchup advantage against most teams.
Of course, you still have De Sousa in the mix, and I could certainly see him mixed into that, but I can’t see him starting over Dedric. Grimes is just too talented not to play. I think KJ forces his way into the lineup also.
The only guys that probably are disappointed about Vick’s return are Cunliffe and Agbaji. Agbaji almost certainly won’t see much, if any action this year now. Cunliffe saw his chances at minutes sliced in half. But I don’t think anyone else would have changed their minds.
And ultimately, I don’t think Self is in the same situation as Coach K was with Carter because everyone that did come to KU already knew that KU was pursuing Romeo Langford hard. So there was a scenario where Langford picks KU rather than Indiana and both Cunliffe and Agbaji are in the same position they are in now.
Maybe Cunliffe would have transferred at the end of the Spring Semester, but he would have had to transfer down to D2 to play immediately, otherwise he loses a whole year of eligibility. Plus, Cunliffe still could transfer out and be eligible to play at the D2 level.
The Agbaji situation is more straightforward to me. He picked KU knowing Grimes was coming, Langford was being recruited, and Cunliffe was already here. He knew that he was behind Grimes and would be behind Langford. When Agbaji picked KU, there was no sign that Vick was even contemplating leaving (Agbaji declared in February). It wasn’t even assured that Newman was leaving.
I could see guys being disappointed that they have thought for two months that they would be getting more time with Vick (and Langford) out of the picture, but I don’t think they were misled at the time of their decisions because the facts at the time they made their choices had Vick still very much in the picture.
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I listened to the Newell segment. All conjecture. Nothing concrete. Not like he heard something from a player. More Petro just trying to stir the pot, imo.
The team voted to let him come back. Bill said there will be rules and stipulations for his return. We were looking to add someone anyways, so pissing off players with playing time issues isn’t any different than if we had recruited Langford.
I see no issues with anyone other than Vick and whether or not he becomes the player and teammate that he agreed to be this season. But his leash is probably amazingly short and if he even steps a little bit out of line, no doubt he is gone.
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Lol Petro just keeps blaming Vick for JJs car incident. And saying how Self bringing him back could lead to the rest of the team having discipline issues. Really just kind of a poor segment. When Petro gets on his soapbox, I usually change the station.
IMO, this is exactly the right move. Bringing back Vick on a short leash is better than adding a 5* recruit.
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@HighEliteMajor So you’re evidence of Vick being a PG is a quote from Self last season when KU had only 1 PG on the roster. The only reason Vick would’ve ever seen a minute a PG last year would’ve been as Newman’s back up had Graham gotten injured at some point.
There is zero video evidence to suggest Vick is capable of running point. His handles are worse than EJ’s when he was forced to play out of position. Lagerald Vick at point would be an absolute disaster. He is also by far the worst ball handler among the perimeter players who will see relevant minutes next season.
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@Kcmatt7 Vick was the fuel in that incident because Vick and Calvert were dating at one point and the incident happened pretty soon after they broke up. Vick was with another girl rubbing that new relationship in Calvert’s face afrer Vick realized Calvert was there. I said it then and I’ll say it again, Lagerald Vick being an a-hole to Calvert is what caused that whole situation to explode.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Everyone on this site knows this.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 It was more the repetition on the segment that I was referring to. He probably brought the incident up 10X
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Lots of players could play PG but they don’t. Garret actually played PG in HS and was POY in Texas playing at that position and did not play PG at KU; I can see him playing PG before Vick. If Vick plays PG at KU, the team is in serious trouble.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 What planet are you on? Thanks for the useless lecture though. No, I don’t think Vick will ever play point guard. I never said that, of course. But that’s ok.
Of course, for those following along, which might be this entire board minus one, I simply quoted Bill Self, which included the part where he said Vick is not a point guard. And the point of the quote is that Bill Self, his words, mentioned that Vick could “can play point guard.” This was related to posts above that said Vick had never been mentioned in that area. And it seemed worthy given the discussion.
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@BShark I was thinking Agbaji might be one that JN thinks might wish he were somewhere else?
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@Hawk8086 Sam, if anyone.
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Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well…all paid for…
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Garrett?
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Coach Self seems to like Garret, particularly the way he plays defense. He will get decent minutes.
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Catching up on a lot of threads tonight. Sure seems like the hot weather is making a number of people pretty over-sensitive, as well as nit-picky. Have a cold one, everyone, and let’s chill!
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Next season by minutes (only counted for games that the players actually play in, which is why the total minutes are more than 200):
Dedric - 30
Grimes - 28
Vick - 24
Dotson - 23
Doke - 22
Moore - 20
KJ - 19
De Sousa - 18
Garrett - 18
McCormack - 6
Lightfoot - 6
Cunliffe - 4
Teahan - 2
Elliot - 2
Luinstra - 2
Agbaji - RS
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JayHawkFanToo said:
Agbaji indicated he had no problem red shirting since he will in all likelihood be a 4 year player and an extra year gives him a chance to possibly get a Masters as well…all paid for…
Ahhh. … I do not remember reading this…would seem to make it more likely now, for sure.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich That is an excellent prediction, although as the president of the Charlie Moore Fan Club, I was thinking it would be Charlie at 24 minutes, and Cunliffe redshirts.
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@Kcmatt7 and do we know if that vote was unanimous?
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@mayjay Are you calling me oversensative?
I saw a sign that said: Today’s forecast…just stay inside.
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@Fightsongwriter Who, me? calling someone oversensitive? I would know --it is in my “takes one to know one” catalog. It is amazing how easy it is to see that mote in someone else’s eye…
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Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
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Texas Hawk 10 said:
@jaybate-1.0 Did you see Vick’s handles last year, worse than EJ’s who was listed as a PG coming out of HS. Vick was also listed as a shooting guard by every major recruiting service. Are you saying that all the recruiting sites were lying to everyone about what position Vick played because the evidence sure doesn’t point that way.
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No, I’m saying Bill and LB think he has point guard potential and they trump the nobs you refer to.
When Bill said he wasn’t a PG he was apparently saying yet, and in any conventional sense.
Next, Vick looked frustrated part of last season. The guy clearly wants to play the point and likely came to KU at Larry’s suggestion to do so, when things got sticky in Dallas for whatever reason.
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank, EJ all had bad handles. Handles come with development. Handles often look bad when you are playing out of position. Vick has Speed like TT. An after burner like Frank. A trey gun like Devonte. Taller than any pg we’ve had. Able to play baseline or high against a zone. Able to guard anyone on the perimeter. He mastered the 2 last season before and after he went in his funk with Self’s toughening box time and his leg dragging injury.
Vick’s weakness is not handles. It’s his focus and sustaining it. It’s his difficulty with adopting and controlling command presence to lead. Self apparently questioned all of that and dared him to become what he wasn’t, and Vick cracked for a while. Big deal. Self cracks guys all the time.
This team desperately needs Vick and he needs them.
Vick will play some point for sure. The question is how much? A lot or a little. It depends on Vick deciding if he wants to make the ultimate sacrifice and become a team leader PG between his ears, not just below the neck. Becoming a leader is very tough for some.
Vick can help the team as a domestique 2 again. But he can make it great if he were to become the point that Larry foresaw.
Vick may fail the test. He appears to be very idiosyncratic. But great talent that coincidentally would be exactly what the team needs; that kind of player has to be gambled on for the team to reach its full potential.
Self tends to take such risk.
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BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
Vick wing point initiated last season, brought the ball up some, and guarded everyone. He was a good passer. He can get to the rim. He will fight a buzz saw. And he can shoot outside, when not in a funk.
His defense guards ties he starts somewhere.
His shot alone guaranties he wing point initiates a lot this season.
If he learns command presence he IS the PG, and we put up with him learning to run a team but if he can’t get control of his appearance, body language and stability, then he will be on the wing.
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jayballer73 said:
BShark said:
If Vick plays PG this year I will be shocked and concede the point to JB. I see no reason, however, to believe he is “primed for a great 4th season at the point”. Tyshawn and Devonte had minutes played at PG before their SR year.
I don’t think your gonna have to be worrying about conceding anything buddy - -Vick will not be playing any PG - not even close for his Senior year. - If he does you will then see me become the pope in the near future lol.
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Hail Mary
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I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Won’t last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Won’t make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank Mason. Tyshawn Taylor.
See at @HighEliteMajor’s reference to Self’s comments on Vic, a player LB originally reputedly viewed as a PG prospect. LB and Self are HOF coaches. The links are to recruiting stories. Do you not see the difference?
Next, Self often plays players at other positions to round out their games and to get them on the floor with more experienced players at the position Self plans to play them at eventually.
Why does contemplating Vick at the point this year, at least swinging 1-2 the way Bill Self and Larry Brown have contemplated him stress you into inflexible thinking mode denying the realities of Bill and LB?
Vick likely would be a very effective point for certain kinds of schemes, especially for a team playing through a lot of big men, because of his stretching trey gun and because he is tall enough to make the entry pass “over the top” and the lob from wing, wing point, or point positions. Also, Vick would be ideal for long rebounding of all the treys our opponents will be taking in the trey ball era, especially against a team loaded with bigs. Finally, Vick with Moore as a credible Backup and part time tandem mate would be the best of all possible worlds. Moore could handle any short points too fast for Vick and with Vick and Moore in simultaneously it would KEEP OPPONENTS GUESSING WHICH WOULD INITIATE THE OFFENCE.
You seem to be being disputatious for no reason.
Come in. The water is fine.
Self said he isn’t a PG.
Proof re Larry Brown or are you just making that up?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Vick is a stunning talent. Board rats have to forget this bad handles nonsense. Tyshawn, Frank all had bad handles.
WRONG. Next.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
I heard all this same talk, when Self went with Tyshawn.
Never happen.
Then he went with him.
Never work. Bad handles.
Then he handled.
Never work. Too soft and sensy.
Then he grew up.
Not a good enough shooter.
Then he shot 40% most of the season.
Won’t last.
Then he lead the team to the Finals.
Won’t make it in the pros.
Lasted a few years and done.
See, I told you so.
There are great players.
Some pass the eye test and create comfort.
Some are “different” and trigger discomfort.
Tyshawn Taylor wasn’t a conventional point guard that made fans comfortable. He took a lot of on the job training. But for that team he was the perfect point guard. They got to the finals and would have beaten any non stack team for the ring.
Self probably would rather have had a conventional PG that could. Make the team better than Tyshawn could. But he didn’t have one.
Looking at this season, whether Vick plays point depends on whether Self has someone more conventional that by season’s end will make the team better than taking a big gamble on Vick learning to lead would make the team.
Self doesn’t take the lower risk approach unless it leads somewhere better.
Vick at point makes this team the best it could be, if Vick can master himself.
Self has a tough call.
Everyone wants Vick “on a short leash” taking the treys and being what they already know—the domestique 2. They want Vick to be better at what they know.
Fans always want more of what they know.
They didn’t want the highschool 2 Frank from Towson at KU, much less the point.
They didn’t the highschool 2 Marquette decommit Tyshawn as starting point.
And so on
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Tyshawn was always a PG. Next.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Thanks for the links. Now, do they indicate to you that Self will not convert players to point guards that were recruits defined by those sorts of links defined as shooting guards (I.e., Vick, Frank Mason and Tyshawn Taylor). They don’t lead me to that conclusion at all.
Frank and Tyshawn were listed as PGs by services and KU/Self constantly. Try again.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
Fortunately, Self chooses what makes the team the best it can be and embraces the uncomfortable unknown when the risk/return tradeoff warrants it. He puts up with the fans addicted to the known.
Vick may never see a second at the point this season, but only if someone else at point makes the team have greater potential.
Self would not hesitate to give Vick the keys, if he thought the return was worth the risk of the unknown.
Self gets things wrong all the time. He bungled the Diallo situation for one.
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@jaybate-1.0 Frank had bad handles? Pleeaaaaase
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Yes, when he arrived, everyone talked about how limited his skills as a PG were.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I’ve simply missed it.
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What if jaybate is Larry Brown?
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Diallo is still trying to figure it out!
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You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
BShark said:
jaybate 1.0 said:
Self gets things wrong all the time.
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All the time?
Do you realize how foolish such an over generalization appears?
As foolish as anyone that assumes he always gets it right.
Still waiting for Larry Brown quotes on Vick being a PG. I scoured the internet, found nothing. Maybe I’ve simply missed it.
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But of course I dont.
U always leave the best part out.
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@jaybate-1.0 NO - -jaybate – -NOT hell Mary - -it’s OH jerry lmao. - - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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mercy me - – mercy me - -mercy me - - - people rippling waters - -seems to be some slight difference of opinions within the trible- -has to be the heat - -or the water lol - -let’s remember as I was told sometime back - -let’s play nice and enjoy - -yes - - yes - - yes that’s it – looking forward to Vick playing PG lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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California water rations maybe.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
You are forgetting that Jaybate never lets the facts get in the way of his fantasyland stories.
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BShark said:
California water rations maybe.
Yes that’s what it has to be - - some rations. - -And by the way mister - -no firecrackers for you - -you been to agrumentive ( is that even a word lmao ) - -no missle’s - -no Roman Candles no nothing lol
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The next thread in which I am hoping to follow back and forth disputationness is the one about how many angels can dance on the head of a pin.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do seem to remember people suggesting that Frank couldn’t play point. I wasn’t one of them. His dribbling always looked very tight to me.
