Anyone watching NBA Playoffs?
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@mayjay said:
Rooting for or against players and teams is basic to fandom.
…and yet you seem to have a problem when others do not root for a player you like.
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@mayjay Why do you feel sorry for him? Maybe he loves to hate LeBron. One can derive just as much joy rooting against a perceived evil as rooting for the good guy.
I.e. The Raiders are only fun to bash when they’re good. But that doesn’t stop me from enjoying every Chiefs wunnover them.
What I feel sorry for are the LeBron apologists who can’t enjoy him unless everyone else appreciates LBJ to the exact same extent they do. Haters are going to hate, don’t let that ruin your fun.
Edit this is in response to a really old post as it turns out. May have been answered already.
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@justanotherfan No doubt James would be a better defender, but that doesn’t make him defensive player of the year. He’s judged against guys playing under the same rules.
My turn how many less points per game would LBJ have scored against 90s defense? 3-5 less per night?
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@JayHawkFanToo Wrong.
Rooting against a team or player is natural. Refusing to recognize greatness is blind.
I challenge you to figure out why so many people here love and admire Wilt but cannot stand LBJ, citing as their reason the exact same characteristics the Stilt displayed for decades. Arrogance, self-aggrandizement? Wilt’s was unmatched in BB history. Roster manipulation? Ask Elgin Baylor how his time in LA ended. Failure to win the big one too often? Wilt won less in more seasons against a league half its current size. And LBJ’s personal morality is unquestioned, while Wilt’s just makes most of us shudder.
Hating a player for whatever reason happens all the time. I hate Grayson Allen–but it doesn’t stop me from seeing how damned good he can be. And if someone likes him, I don’t try to piss all over their fandom, however misguided.
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Again, you are taking everybody’s words out of context. I never said, nor I remember anyone else saying that LeBron is not good or even great; he is at this time without question the best player in the League with maybe Durant being close. However, this does not mean that he must be universally liked; in my opinion, he is an arrogant whiner that has thrown teammates and coaches under the bus and gets preferential treatment from the refs like most of the great players do, Jordan certainly did.
There are lots of players that are great and I don’t care for and others that are not nearly as good that I like…what’s wrong with that?
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LeBron is the best player, coach and GM in basketball. Traded away half of the team mid-season, missing K-Love and still got this team to the Finals for the 8th straight time. Just unreal.
Every great player is a jerk or a complainer on the court. LBJ is no different. And he is a better person off the court than 99% of the greats. He is a jerk to the media and he is hard on his teammates. That doesn’t make him a bad person, but feel free to think differently.
I’m glad that we actually have a great athlete for young people to look up to who isn’t a womanizer, seems to be a great father, appears to be generous, and attempts to stand up for what he sees as equality. I feel the exact same way about Steph. These guys have more exposure and are put under a microscope at the same time. Yet, from what I can see, they appear to be morally upstanding individuals.
I honestly can’t find any reason why people find LBJ to be more of a jerk than any of the other greats. Sans Tim Duncan, who seems to be the nicest and most humble player ever.
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Some numbers:
Charles Barkley - 6-6, 250
Scottie Pippen - 6-8, 210
Karl Malone - 6-9, 250
Larry Bird - 6-9, 220
Magic Johnson - 6-9, 215
James Worthy - 6-9, 225
That’s six HOF players, all of whom were forwards (except Magic). Lebron is 6-8, 250 for reference. So he’s roughly the size of Karl Malone, except with the passing skills of Magic, Pippen’s defense, Bird’s scoring ability and the speed of a guard. And remember, in the 90’s, you could not play any type of zone defense, so it was a true man to man, with nobody allowed to sag off their guy to help and protect the middle like you can now. Pippen was an excellent defender, but not big and strong enough to keep a guy like Lebron from backing him down in the post. He’s giving away 40 pounds. Lebron has the quickness advantage on Barkley and Malone, and neither of those guys can overpower him at his size. Worthy, Johnson and Bird are also too small to handle him, particularly Magic at his playing weight, and probably are giving away a speed advantage as well.
Who from the 90’s can guard Lebron, even handchecking him? He’s too strong for the small forwards, too quick for any of the power forwards out on the perimeter. And without being able to send help until he catches the ball, Lebron would feast with his basketball IQ.
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First, it was the 1980 Finals against the Sixers. That’s an important detail for my next point.
Second, while Magic Johnson jumped center for the Lakers, he did not guard Sixers center Darryl Dawkins (aka Chocolate Thunder). He guarded his usual assignment (Lionel Hollins). Jim Chones matched up with Dawkins and held him to just four rebounds. Every game recap notes that Chones, not Johnson, was matched up with Dawkins.
Magic may have jumped center, but Chones played center.
Lebron doesn’t jump center, but he has guarded every position in basketball, from PG (thinking of his defense on Derrick Rose in the 2011 ECF) to PF/C (I remember him matched up with Tim Duncan in the Finals more than once).
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@justanotherfan lol
Jordan couldn’t guard Shaq but that didn’t make O’Neil the best player ever either. Look at PER or any of the advanced stats or don’t if you want LBJ to still be the GOAT in your mind.
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If you want to go subjective put Jordan in place of LeBron and vice versa. I feel with 100% certainty that Michael would’ve won 4 straight in Miami and
3 of 4 vs GS. I dont think LBJ can match Jordan’s 6/6. I do think Oakley and Ewing would make him their bitch and he’d be at best 4 of 6 in Chicago. Or possibly 5 of 8 with no baseball hiatus.
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Imagine 76ers lineup with LBJ next season…
- PG: Simmons
- SG: Reddick
- SF: James
- PF: Saric
- C: Embiid
Bench:
- 10th overall pick
- McConnell
- Fultz
- Illyasova
I’m drooling. If I am interpreting rules correctly, the 76ers could sign LBJ and then use the mid-level exception on JJ Redick and the only thing they would have to do is find a way to get someone to take Jerrod Bayless’ contract.They could probably package it with the 26th pick and get a taker. I believe that at that point they would be able to get a Bird exception on JJ, Designate LBJ and do an Early - Bird deal with Simmons to keep that core together for years. Losing on Saric at a time where LBJ would naturally slide into the 4 as he ages.
If LBJ wins this finals, he probably stays in Cleveland. If not, I would be he ends up in Philly. And I would love every second of it.
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The fact that Jordan couldn’t guard Shaq doesn’t make Shaq better, but the fact that Lebron could guard probably every player in NBA history makes him certainly the most versatile player in history.
I’ve always enjoyed the Lebron or Jordan debate because there are so many elements to it, including the difference in era and style, the difference in focus, etc.
If they switched places, I think James ends up in much the same place, BTW. Bulls never get Grant and Pippen because by 1987 James has pulled them basically even with Boston and Detroit (similar to how he went to the Finals in 2007 in Cleveland). That costs the Bulls draft position and they end up with different players, never surrounding James with the supporting cast.
James’ versatility is his blessing and curse. Because he can do it all (and make up for teammate shortcomings), he makes an otherwise below average team average to good. Jordan raised the level of play for the Bulls to be certain, but at no point were they at the same level as the mid to late 80’s Celtics and Pistons.
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@dylans Your PER argument when broken down completely simply isn’t a very good argument.
First, Jordan wasn’t in the league until 21. A huge advantage for Jordan.
Second, PER is subjective in the way in which the formula for it is written. The way it weights things completely changes the output. Had it been weighted heavier for assists or rebounds, LBJ would be the leader.
Third, They are within one-tenth of a standard deviation from each other. Meaning, the smallest variable (rules) could sway it one way or the other. A standard deviation in this data set is roughly 2.34 PER points. They are .23 PER points from each other.
Fourth, PER has no way of calculating the impact of a teammate’s ability. Nor the GM or Coach’s ability at finding, developing or gameplanning.
Fifth, because of Jordan’s strange career path, you can hardly compare the two fairly. Jordan’s decline could have easily brought his PER down enough to make a difference. We only have the two years when he was with the Wizards. He could have posted in the upper 20s, but just as easily he could have posted several years of 25 or worse, lowering his career PER.
Because of this, the PER argument is simply not a good basis for comparing the two against each other.
I do think it shows just how much better they were than the rest of the field. I also think it shows just how close the two are to each other, and how I can see why people think one may be better than the other. It is amazing how dominant they both were in their own era.
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I’m talking PER at their peak not over their whole career. This favors James as there are more years to chose from. Jordan’s peak is higher making him the best player ever during his peak. If you want to argue that LeBron has more impact over his total career I’d listen to that argument, but it’s not how I personally determine whom I think I is best basketball player.
@kcmatt7 I figured this would bring you out of retirement. I’m still waiting on a persuasive argument that actually breaks out stats and isn’t purely subjective in the support of LeBron being better than Jordan or even Julius Erving at their peak.
Or if you do t like advanced stats Jordan led the league in scoring all 10 of his peak years Lebronninly once in his 10 peak years.
Disadvantage for Jordan being he missed 2 peak years to play baseball or his peak would be even higher.
I was just picking Per since it’s a stat I didn’t make up. What advanced stats do you prefer?
@justanotherfan I don’t think LeBron would stand a chance at guarding Jordan or Shaq or Kyrie. I’m not buying the he can guard anyone argument. Where’s the hardware?
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Let’s try another barometer of the Pinacle of success then. Who was he finals mvp during Jordan’s 6 trips? Who was the finals during Lebrons 8 trips?
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Jordan won all six Finals MVPs.
Lebron has won three (all three times his team won).
The only player from a losing team to ever win was Jerry West, who averaged 38 points, 7.4 assists and 4.7 rebounds per game in a losing effort the very first year the award was given.
Lebron probably should have won the award in 2015, when he averaged 35.8 points (Curry averaged the next most at 26), 13.3 rebounds (Tristan Thompson was next, averaging 13), and 8.8 assists (Curry averaged 6.3) in a losing effort, but the award went to Andre Iguodala, who averaged 16/6/4 while guarding Lebron.
Kevin Durant deservedly won last year. Dirk Nowitzki deservedly won in 2011. Tony Parker won in 2007 when Lebron played poorly. Lebron was legitimately overmatched by the Spurs in 2007, as they forced him to be both inefficient and ineffective.
The interesting thing is that since 2012, Lebron or the player primarily matched up with him has won the Finals MVP. That’s how important Lebron is. If your team beats his team, the guy guarding him is the MVP.
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@justanotherfan I really don’t have the desire to get heavily into these GOAT discussions, but I find a lot of your posts are very on point.
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@justanotherfan Correct 6 of 6 vs 3 of 8. Notice a trend? Jordan didn’t lose.
There isn’t single stat I’ve seen to support LeBron as being better than Jordan at their respective peaks. Until someone manufactures one I don’t feel any need to counter.
LeBron is the third best player ever. I hope that isn’t taken as a slight…but LBJ fans will take it as such, even though it’s high praise.
I’m saying he’s better than Bird, Shaq, Wilt, Russell, Kobe… everyone but Dr. J and the guy everyone (even #23 wearing James) wants to be like, Mike.
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@dylans I don’t like advanced stats in this arguments at all simply because the two are so hard to compare due to Jordan’s strange career.
And with that, I think I’ll go back in to “hibernation” until October if I can make it that long.
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@Kcmatt7 The time off isn’t an issue for me. It’s the charmin soft players and rules of this generation that make the eras impossible to completely compare.
Enjoy your time away. I hope it brings about a refreshed viewpoint on our Hawks with the unbridled enthusiasm equal to which you are willing to defend LeBron!
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Sounds like you read recaps of the game and did not watch the actual game. Magic played all positions during the game including center and was matched with Caldwell Jones (6’-11”, 215) who was also listed as Center for the Sixers. Many consider his performance the best ever of any player in a final. He continued playing multiple position throughout his career long before LeBron which was the jest of my original post.
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I have watched the game quite a bit actually. It happened before I was born, but ESPN Classic is awesome.
The Sixers started a big lineup with Jones and Dawkins up front with Doc. Hollins and Cheeks were in the backcourt. The Lakers normal lineup was Magic, Kareem, Norm Nixon, Jamaal Wilkes (underrated player) and Chones to match Philly inside. When Kareem went down, LA plugged Michael Cooper in at a forward spot to start. Cooper was a great defender that could match up with Erving and give Wilkes a break on that end.
Caldwell Jones wasn’t as physical as Dawkins, so the Lakers put Magic on him some, although Magic also matched up with Hollins. Remember, Magic was only an average defensive player, so LA often hid him on lesser offensive players on D. In the backcourt that was Hollins - Cheeks would have shredded him. Up front, it was Caldwell Jones since either Dawkins or Dr. J would have gone crazy on Magic.
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Tuned in at the start of OT last night after LeBron had basically given up but caught up on the highlights. Draymond Green may be the most annoying player in the league, and between KD joining them and the evolution of Draymond Greens taunting, I really don’t care for Golden State [Klay Thompson is a quality dude]. I appreciated that LeBron didn’t say anything with lasting bite to it about Smith’s bonehead play. That was a tough one to swallow I’m sure.
While the Stanley Cup is a lot more appealing atm I think I’m rooting for LeBron here. Alright Hercules. Let’s see what you got.
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NOPE
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@approxinfinity I couldn’t believe the way regulation ended. Hill missing a free throw and Smith with his head waaaay up his keister. LeBron was crying about his wasted effort. (Rightfully so- his teammates and the refs robbed him)
12th 50 point game of James career.
Sums it up.
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The last three minutes of regulation were equal parts exceptional and bizarre. I don’t think I have ever seen so much physical play allowed, and so many exceptional plays made, while at the same time seeing incredibly simple mistakes by both teams. Curry over threw Durant on a basic entry pass. Smith dribbling the ball out. Easy missed shots.
I think both the teams and the officials were fatigued at the end of regulation. Lebron played 48 minutes (of 53 possible), but the Warriors main guys also played a bunch. Durant and Curry both played 46 minutes. Green played 47. Thompson played 45 (and he missed time with that injury in the first half). This series may end up being a war of attrition because I don’t think either team can go to their bench very much, which could lead to some weird endings when fatigue starts to set in.
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@BShark lol
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According to Stephen A. Smith the rules should be changed so great players cannot have call go against them as it went against LeBron, even when replays clearly shows he was not set and moved into Durant’s path. SMH.
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I agree with what you said. The Warriors were a fun team to root for but now that all the egos have gotten out of control it has become harder. Green is a clown and a stereotype of what I hate about sports, Durant has gotten caught in the frenzy and not longer what he used to be, Curry’s smugness rubs me the wrong way and Kerr has managed to interject politics into almost everything he say. Klay Thompson seems to be the class act of that team. On the Cavalier side I like Love who seems to work hard despite his bouts of depression, a condition that can be devastating. LeBron, despite his greatness still complains about every call and still is the biggest whiner in the League even when he is at the favorable end of most calls. Tristan Thompson is the latest casualty in the long line of athletes that got involved with the Kardashians and the poor bastard does not realize he is on his way down now. Most of the players in these two team make Marcus Smart seem like a likeable player.
I wanted a Rockets-Celtics final but that is not what we have. Frankly, I don’t know what team I want to win.
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@JayHawkFanToo Go team meteor!
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I hate using slow motion replay to change a call like that in basketball, because block charge involves so much judgment. At the NBA level, no one is ever going to be completely set before contact. Players at that level are just too fast, too agile, and too skilled. They won’t generally just barrel into a player that is set. That’s why block charge is such a difficult call.
Lebron got to the spot above the restricted area in Durant’s path. The baseline official (closest to the play) immediately signaled charge before checking with his other officials. Then they went to the monitor. There was no question that Lebron was not in the restricted area. I hate reviewing that call if you aren’t looking at the restricted area because no one ever comes fully set in the NBA, otherwise someone has already gone around you anyway.
It’s similar to the baseball replay rule that allows you to review a play where the runner beats the ball, but loses contact with the base for a moment on the popup slide. The speed and force of the action means that replay can change a call based on a technicality. If you reviewed every charge in the NBA in slow motion, more than 75% would probably be reversed because in slow motion you can see the player still moving into position because NBA players are skilled enough to change direction in the blink of an eye to avoid contact. You don’t see that at the HS or even the college level because most players just don’t have that physical ability.
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I could tell
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@justanotherfan @JayHawkFanToo @Crimsonorblue22
Yes, he was moving but that shouldn’t have mattered. The question is whether he was in the path in a legal guarding position before Durant started his upward motion, not whether he was still. The announcers and their “expert on call” former ref thought he was there and that it was a charge, and were shocked at the reversal.
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@mayjay this expert
agreed w/the reversal!
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@Crimsonorblue22 I would say roughly 90% of people’s opinions on this call could be accurately predicted by whether or not they have a positive view of LBJ.
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Except for the one ref analyst that said it could have gone either way, before all the replays were available, every other analyst I saw or read indicated that reversing was the right call…except for a Stephen A. Smith that claims superstars should not get fouls called on them. The replays clearly show James not only moving on the path of Durant but even bumping his own teammate…but I am sure you don’t agree because you believe we should all like LeBron and bow to him just because he is such a great player.
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@JayHawkFanToo ouch! Play nice
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@mayjay I’m the 10%, always right too!
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@JayHawkFanToo No, I believe you have decided to keep pressing this type of comment and I think it is very tiresome.
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Imagine how we feel…
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@JayHawkFanToo Drop it. And don’t tell me what I believe.
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I thought the call could’ve gone ether way personally, not having a dog in this fight I thought the refs were terrible last night and I probably won’t watch other game being called like that. People forget as @mayjay said you don’t have to be set for it to be a charge, you have to be in legal guarding position otherwise the bigger players could just plow their way to the hoop without risk of a charge call. I ask our office manager who has been an official in his spare time for 20 years and he agrees it could’ve gone ether way stating most block/charges are judgement calls like a ball/strike call.
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@kjayhawks I keep wondering how team Trae young will do? Could he be killed?
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I’m not a Trae Young fan. But I am interested in the indicators that scouts might look at when assessing Trae’s ceiling.
When we bag on Oklahoma falling apart with Young, I went back and looked at Davidson’s losses in Curry’s last season (2008-09)…
Oklahoma, Purdue, Duke, College of Charleston, Citadel (by 16!), Butler, College of Charleston again, and Saint Mary’s.
Sure, you could argue Oklahoma last year had a better roster than Davidson did with Curry, but there are some pretty bad losses in there.
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@approxinfinity so what do you think?
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@Crimsonorblue22 I think he’s a gifted passer but don’t think he can manage a game, not now, maybe never in an elite capacity. If he can learn to play off the ball then I think he could have a high ceiling playing second fiddle to someone like LeBron. But if he is drafted by a crappy team where he is expected to run the show from day one I think yes he’s going to get destroyed.
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@approxinfinity I think that’s a bad comparison, if I’m not mistaken Curry lost most of his supporting cast from the 08 EE team. I think they pretty just had him after that, I tell you this watching Curry in 08 and Trae last year not knowing what we know about Curry now I’d still take him over Young. Young’s team quit on him last year, I think that was obvious. I do think Young’s game is better suited for the NBA but he has to be more of a team player, ain’t no NBA team gonna let some rook come in and think they run the show.
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@kjayhawks I’m with you. How do you review a judgement call? That’s my only complaint about the call. I can see reviewing foot placement for the ring under the basket, for three pointers, or out of bounds but to review a block/charge?
Unless it’s blatantly obvious the ref was out of position to make the call, why review? And if the ref was out of position, why did he blow his whistle?
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@kjayhawks “… ain’t no NBA team gonna let some rook come in and think they run the show.”
39 years ago that was the big question about Magic Johnson joining Kareem’s Lakers. His versality and personality won everyone over, but most importantly he cared mostly about winning and proved it by setting everyone else up. Sharing the basketball is what endears players to a ball possession teammate. If Trae concentrates on his assists, driving and dishing, and just letting his phenomenal shooting be a constant threat (rather than 1st option), he will have a lengthy and happy pro career because his passing ability is mind-boggling.
