Vick moves on. Forgoes Sr Year
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“I told Coach Self, ‘Look, I’m still coming to Late Night,’” she said with a laugh. “We’ve still got two Memphis boys on the time in Dedric and K.J. (Lawson). I appreciate Kansas basketball taking us places we’ve never been. And I really appreciate Coach Self and the staff for letting me be myself. They always accepted me. The people there were so nice to our family. And this journey for Lagerald has been amazing.”
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I don’t have a good feeling about Vick’s departure.
Vick played 3rd most average minutes and averaged 12 ppg. Not bad. He started in a Final Four, too. Impressive. But an awful lot of guys have started as 3rd or 4th options in the FF and never played in the NBA.
Further, Lagerald shot only 37% from trey land and only 67% from the FT line. And he wasn’t big and strong enough to not need a lot of help on defense against true 3s. Everyone in the NBA is as good as Bridges. Self could find quite a few guys that could give him those numbers.
Langford’s hype says he could, maybe more, but we all know how rarely 5-star freshmen can step in and fulfill the hype that first season, especially on defense, for Self.
Vick is probably going to have to play D league, or overseas, unless I am missing an aspect of his game, so, he should have stayed a senior season, even as a sixth man, and gotten a degree and Self should have wanted him to, if things were good between him and Self, and there were no skeletons in his past from his association with LB, nor stuff we don’t know about the last two seasons.
My antennae often go up about players, when their mothers, or fathers, start explaining what appear odd situations, especially early departures.
Lightfoot appeared the guy that should have gotten pushed overboard to get Langford, not Vick, under normal circumstances. Lightfoot was the guy given the ominous “Bill-Self-no-play” the last two games. Rotation guys that suddenly get the no-play the last game or two are at significant risk historically of shortly saying (or having their parents say) how much they have loved their time at KU, but feel its time for them to move on.
Don’t get this situation.
Feels like more than Langford availability and already signed recruits.
Maybe more to the story?
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@jaybate-1-0 The information is all readily available. Call it a mutual decision between Vick’s family and Self. I said it before he announced, Vick needs money and needs to just start his career now, even if it is, as I suspect, overseas.
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Will not sniff the nba but will make good $$. Call Keith Langford asap Lacobra for big brotherly advice.
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@Fightsongwriter Vick is not Keith Langford. Langford was playing for top division teams and occasionally inquired about by NBA teams. Vick will end with 2nd and 3rd tier teams in Europe.
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Vick should still be able to play for a good chunk of change overseas. Maybe not $1M+ a year like Langford, but six figures for sure.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think he was just suggesting he get advice from him … Vick will make a good living. But you’re right, definitely not Keith Langford. Or Romeo, for that matter.
@jaybate-1-0 Ok, so let’s go with your Mitch tangent. Do you really think he is on the outs, or on the transfer block? I agree that the bench in the last two games has been solid circumstantial evidence. But we have no other evidence. Not even a shred. So I really don’t. With other guys that found the bench late, we had more smoke.
How about wild, irresponsible speculation, that goes with your more reserved observation – Mitch got punched by Dedric (leading to Dedric staying home from Italy), and they don’t get along, and thus Self is trying to make nice for next year, and Mitch’s scholarship may actually be at risk? (please note, I am still searching for the assassin, a/k/a the guy who punched Mitch)
I think he’s the program player we all want to occupy a scholarship or two. I’ve said this before and been surprised … but, it would seem the Lightfoot family would have known the lay of the land at Kansas. PT is shifting sand here and only as available as the next OAD. Hopefully he’s a lifer here.
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@jaybate-1.0 Mitch isn’t going to transfer. He bleeds KU. If you tried to lock him out of the building, he would break in. He’s a Jayhawk for life.
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I didn’t speculate that Mitch took an eye steak from a Lawson, but it’s an interesting hypothesis I recall some posing after I noted possible team chemistry problems early on with Svi and Malik.
But if Self were to have Doke, Silvio, and two Lawsi, and with Vick taking the Adios Express, along with DG, Malik and Svi, Self desperately needs trey guns, not 5th or 6th bigs without trey guns.
The looming shortage of trey guns is the evidence that dovetails with the two game no play.
Eye steaks for Mitch from Lawsii still seems outside the flashlight penumbra, until more turns up.
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Hope u r right, but Self is a hard man, when it comes to what can make the team better.
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@jaybate-1.0 He’s cut from different cloth. You can throw the normal reactions away with Mitch- he is all about KU winning above his own personal aspirations. He is the epitome of team first. He won’t want to leave after he graduates.
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Mitch isn’t going anywhere.
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@BShark I know better than to get on this subject anyway. For the next billion years or so, there will be those who love the one and done’s and those who desperately want four year players. Everyone’s right -seriously, we could all make great cases why we’re right, we just can’t make the other side see WHY we’re right!
Have a great day my friend.
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@nuleafjhawk I love four year players that love being at KU. In this day and age, they are pretty rare. That makes guys like Frank, Graham and Svi even MORE special imo. I can’t fault guys for going pro early at all. Make no mistake, they are majoring in basketball.
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I hate seeing a kid leave before their senior year. I’m a huge fan of 4 year players. Yet I think the writing was on the wall for Vick. Coach knew it, KU knew it, and Vick especially knew it. Greatly and sadly Coach is a loyal dog but will out recruit a player. This appears to be the case with Vick. With the new Players that Coach is bringing in. There is a very good chance that Vick could go from starter to a bench player next year. With that being said Vick should go, and salvage what he can of a professional basketball career. Even it means playing over seas.
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@Crimsonorblue22 i like your list. And I’d add Josh Jackson as the best freshman producer Self has ever had in his HOF career. (Injury cut Embiid short). Players like Josh and Embiid are why I utterly hate the OAD rule. Frank and Sherron were special, just as rare.
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@HighEliteMajor Very interesting side thread about Mitch Ltfoot. Personally, it would be in his best interests to really develop his 3 game & handles. He’s got good swat instincts, and showing the athleticism to cash that check. But he’s also not going to be 245-250 lbs. Become a 3/4 versatile guy. Like those Wiscy 6’8 guys of recent yrs. Redshirt even an option, insurance, for both parties.
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@nuleafjhawk Nobody love’s the OADs. It has screwed up CBB pretty good. But your argument really wasn’t arguing for or against OADs. You basically argued that OADs should stay 4 years and forgo three years of potential earnings, in a job that relies on youth and athleticism and only allows guys to make money for a finite number of years.
Put yourself in the shoes of a OAD. I find it extremely hard to believe you wouldn’t take millions of dollars, when you are making at most $120k in “payment”, simply out of loyalty.
Your argument was simply misguided, or perhaps even misstated. Had your argument been about whether we like or dislike the OAD rule, I would think most people would agree that they don’t like it and it is a stupid rule.
My question to you, at this particular moment, would you rather land a OAD prospect who could possibly be the best player on the team if he came, especially in our current roster situation (one that is ranked preseason #1 and a NC Contender) or would you rather take a prospect ranked roughly 120 that stayed for 4 years and has a ceiling of cracking the rotation for 20 minutes per game, a floor of getting the Bill Self Shuffle after one year, and an average of basically being Christian Garrett? Because, this second, that is about where we are at as far as options. I guess you could bring in a transfer. But then you would still only have them for 1 season.
If you say the #150, I would like insert that scenario into your “metaphor.” Instead of hiring the person most qualified for the job because you are afraid they will leave, you would rather hire a person under-qualified for the job and try to train them, even though you know that they will literally NEVER be able to be as good as someone you could have had for one year, and will likely not perform at a competent level for the entire time you have them under your employ? You could do that, or perhaps hire a temp for a year until you try to hire a decently qualified person. But at that point, you could have had a very qualified person for a year instead of a temp who is a temp for a reason.
If you are mad at Newman or Vick, again, these guys only have a short window to earn as much money as possible before their athleticism fades. Put in the same situation as them, I find it hard to believe you wouldn’t do the same thing.
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Quite possibly a moot question for a blue-blood. Given the reload over rebuild priority, appears Self and Company have little choice but to land the best available talent each year regardless of projected/perceived tenure.
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KUSTEVE said:
@jaybate-1.0 He’s cut from different cloth. You can throw the normal reactions away with Mitch- he is all about KU winning above his own personal aspirations. He is the epitome of team first. He won’t want to leave after he graduates.
I’m going to call it now, Mitch Lightfoot will be the head coach at Kansas at some point in the future.
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@CRH107 I think it is a moot point for anyone. Would you want someone who could be a top 25 player in CBB on your team for a year or not? I don’t think it is that hard of a decision for a coach.
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@Kcmatt7 I do think you can skip the presumed OADs. Has Michigan even recruited a presumed OAD? Nova?
It is not as simple as simply taking guys because they are good. It’s an overall approach to recruiting. Promising kids that the program won’t bring in a presumed OAD type that puts them on the bench. It gives a coach credibility.
Not one presumed OAD in the final four this season.
I accept Self will pursue them. But I do think he is trying to target “fits” for the program. Not blind pursuits. I’ve said my peace in the past on this topic, a number of years ago. https://kubuckets.com/topic/935/just-say-no-to-oads-at-ku
Of course, some of my prior points are outdated. A title has been won with a presumed OAD since then.
Where would we be without presumed OADs? I would argue that we’d be better off right now if we’d avoided all of them. Speculation. But the intangible of help with recruiting is one I recognize. I still believe if recruits know we’re not pursuing the presumed OADs, Self would rule in the very next tier.
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@Kcmatt7 The hiring in business scenario is not analagous to recruiting because in basketball a OAD has a presumed one year of high value (but possibly more) whereas the lesser-qualified-but-possibly-trainable guy still has 4 years at most of actual production (that might include another year of extra training). In business, you can have both short- and long-term careers in mind for employees. In college sports, even long-term is pretty short.
I would say get the best people you can get who fit your needs. In college ball, if you have another who fears being recruited over, let him go if he doesn’t realize practicing against and playing with the star can only make him better.
In business, too many companies have traded away long-term success achievable through strategic employee development by seeking short-term advantage in hiring decisions.
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@Kcmatt7 Very well stated.
@HighEliteMajor Yeah unfortunately it is impossible to say. I can say with fair certainty that the team with Josh wouldn’t have been nearly as good without Josh on it. However there was a void created by taking prior oads instead of a purely developmental approach like Nova or UVA.
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Yep. I don’t think Mitch is going anywhere either… except… he should consider a redshirt if Self agrees.
A solid year of protein shakes and Hudy and our boy Mitch should be 20 lbs of muscle heavier. It’s what he needs to do anyways if he wants a pro career somewhere. And then work on his jump shot and other aspects of the game, like his handles. If he redshirts next year… then the following year it is hard to imagine him not getting valuable PT.
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Oh so true… but the thing is… it would actually be to Vick’s benefit to have competition for PT. He needs to be pushed. He wasn’t this year and so he was just allowed to play through a very poor conference season. Had we more depth, chances are Vick would have been benched early on and then we would have seen him hungry to see the floor again.
Many young players don’t get it. They think it is in their best interest to find a big hole in someone’s lineup guaranteeing them all the PT they can handle. WRONG! They need to be pushed. They need to fight competitively for PT. And if they won’t do it in college, how easy will it be later if they are going for a pro career?
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@HighEliteMajor Comparing us to Michigan isn’t really fair. The expectations are different. Bill Self would not still be the Head Coach at Kansas with the same record as Beilein at Michigan. In 11 years he missed the Tournament thrice and has never lost fewer than 8 games. Didn’t at WVU either.
In 11 of Jay Wrights first 12 years at Nova, he only lost less than 8 games once, missing the tournament 4 times. Again, he would have been fired at KU. He has had a spectacular 5 year run, but it took 12 years to be able to build that first. If you could give Bill the time and patience to do that, sure I think he could build something similar. FWIW, he has landed high ranked guys, they just stayed multiple years due to some deficiency. That is great recruiting on his part, but something Bill would get torched for on the recruiting circuit. We already get crap for Alexander, Diallo, Oubre, Selby, Henry, Bragg and Selden. The narrative is different. If we take a top 25 kid, he is automatically a presumed OAD because he came to KU. If Self landed Spellman, Brunson or Quinerley, they would be looked at as failures for not going pro immediately.
In the years Bill has lost 8 or more games, we probably would have been worse without the OADs we had on the roster. Imagine a team with no Wiggins and Embiid. They miss the tournament. Oubre’s team lost 9 games and he was the best player on the team, despite not getting the minutes he should have gotten. Had we landed Sexton or Ayton this year, I would put money on us losing fewer than 8 games.
Presumed OADs have made the FF at least as often (I actually think more, but I’ve had a few and my research skills are not great at the moment) as FFs without since the rule has been instituted. Three other Blue Bloods have won NCs with OADs on there team, when otherwise they may have had down years or certainly not won a NC. Using one year as your example is a weak argument, when there are 15 years that prove a OAD can be a crucial part of a FF run.
I would have to go back through a lot of posts to find my previous research, but essentially it is much easier for a Blue Blood to recruit the top 19 players than it is to recruit 25-50 as you suggest they do. The reason being, 25-50 players would start at most P5s as a freshmen. But not at KU or most Blue Bloods. Where, 1-19 in the current OAD system are typically good enough to start immediately regardless of where they choose. Because of this, Blue Bloods actually recruit better 1-19 than they do 20-50 because those guys would rather start immediately than sit on the bench. This creates holes because you can’t get enough good program guys in the system to avoid having holes or down years in the future.
It is easy to say go recruit 20-50, but much harder in practice. You can’t lie to those guys and tell them they will come and start, because then you lose credibility when they don’t.
If the OAD rule wasn’t in effect at all, I think KU would be in a better spot because they could recruit program players much better. But under the current rules, I don’t agree that KU would be better off avoiding OADs.
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@HighEliteMajor your comparison to this years Michigan team by itself is no different than me comparing other experienced KU teams that didn’t make the NC to the Fab 5. If Michigan can make a NC with 5 freshmen, no reason KU shouldn’t just go for stud Freshmen every year.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You missed the point entirely; however @HighEliteMajor did not. I never equated him with Keith “the scoring machine” Langford. I did suggest he would be a great source to help Vick navigate foreign waters, because LaCobra will not be earning a penny on US soil unless it’s G League.
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approxinfinity said:
Well… Let’s take a moment of silence to appreciate LaCobra’s 3 solid years for KU, silent assassin, asked to play out of position for the good of the team, amazing hops, zone buster…
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Alright! Good luck LaGerald! Will be pulling for you wherever your travels take you!
Thanks for your time at KU. You were greatly appreciated by many. Wish you good luck and safety on your next phase of life.
Rock Chalk Jayhawk!
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Fightsongwriter said:
@Texas-Hawk-10 You missed the point entirely; however @HighEliteMajor did not. I never equated him with Keith “the scoring machine” Langford. I did suggest he would be a great source to help Vick navigate foreign waters, because LaCobra will not be earning a penny on US soil unless it’s G League.
Langford would still be a bad choice because Vick isn’t going to play in top leagues like Langford did. Vick would need to find a mentor that’s been around the lower divisions because that’s where Vick’s future is in Europe.
Based on Self’s comments about Vick, I really don’t see Vick having much of a future in basketball anywhere unless Vick has a major shift in attitude.
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@Buster-1926 Self’s own personal standards.
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@Buster-1926 Self has underperformed in the tournament several times with talent, he himself has even eluded to it as @BShark said. One could say 04,05,07,10,11,13,16 and 17 all were years where the talent to not only get to the FF but play for a championship. We are Kansas we have had the talent to atleast get to the FF I’d say 10 or 11 years of Selfs 15 year tenure, that being said I realize it’s damn tough to make the FF and every coach has had talented teams miss out.
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drgnslayr said:
Oh so true… but the thing is… it would actually be to Vick’s benefit to have competition for PT. He needs to be pushed. He wasn’t this year and so he was just allowed to play through a very poor conference season. Had we more depth, chances are Vick would have been benched early on and then we would have seen him hungry to see the floor again.
Many young players don’t get it. They think it is in their best interest to find a big hole in someone’s lineup guaranteeing them all the PT they can handle. WRONG! They need to be pushed. They need to fight competitively for PT. And if they won’t do it in college, how easy will it be later if they are going for a pro career?
PHOF
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@Kcmatt7 I’ve already stated that I’m moving on from this subject because it’s a no win for everyone. BUT…lol
No, I’m not mad at Newman or Vick. I totally get why players leave. It’s just that, as a fan, I don’t have as much love or respect as I do for the players that stay four years - ESPECIALLY - great players who KNOW they could bail and go make a boatload of money.
I love the guys who love KU. That’s basically what it boils down to. I like Josh Jackson (I literally had to think for a while to remember his name), I LOVE Frank Mason and Devonte Graham. (Didn’t have to think at all to remember them)
It’s just a personal opinion of mine - i don’t like the One and Done system. I think it robs kids of a great personal learning and growing experience (the whole college scene) while making them extremely rich.
OK, I’m officially done. Until next time.
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If KU recruits the 20-50 guys, that’s Brannen Greene and Andrew White.
We remember when lower guys become Frank Mason and Devonte Graham. You will hit with lower guys sometimes, but you will also miss.
Conner Frankamp. Merv Lindsay. Omar Wilkes. Rio Adams. Royce Woolridge. Micah Downs. Alex Galindo. Quintrell Thomas. That’s nearly a full rotation of players that transferred out of KU that were lower ranked recruits.
Frank and Devonte represent the “best case” scenario for lower ranked guys. They are the exception, not the rule.
As for Svi, most recruiting services agreed at the time that if Svi had been a US high school player, he would have been a top 30 recruit. Svi was always going to be a top prospect. He just wasn’t ranked because he didn’t play HS ball here in the US.
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@nuleafjhawk In one aspect I’m like you in a way - like where you have more respect and love for the four year player - Me ? - I have more respect for a kid when say like he is this highly touted OAD - -and let’s say Romeo as an example although I’m not saying this is Romeo - just using as an example - where I lose a little respect for this kind of a player is - -well like Romeo - -oh he is waiting to see what Vick and Newman are going to do. - -Well my thought on this is – if your as good as your being touted - -as people say you are - -having Vick here or Newman here shouldn’t mater. If your shying away cause of the possibility of them being here and it effecting your minutes. - -If your as good as you say you are, if your as good as people have said you are then them being here shouldn’t matter just come and settle it on the floor with Vick/Newman TAKE those minutes. - -when people say your waiting to see what they are gonna do leaves the impression that your scared of the competition afraid you might not get those minutes - if your that good - then sit them down - show why you have that ranking. -That’s just me. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@justanotherfan I think that’s a pretty unfair commentary (or selective commentary). You are going to fail on multiple recruits all the time. #15-75 guys, non-OAD guys are the best, most reliable targets for a program. Not perfect. And ignoring OADs totally is not perfect either. No path is.
We should remember that these exact players have been the core of our program – 15-75.
Look at TRob, Morrises, Taylor, Mason, DG, Withey, Releford, McLemore, Jackson, Robinson, Chalmers, EJ, Ellis, Selden, KY, Aldrich, Collins – just a few there.
The fact is, that our 2008, 2012, and 2018 FF teams did not have one OAD. Rush was a presumed OAD, but he stayed and was on the team as junior. And 2018 had Newman, who had been a presumed OAD, but came here for two seasons. McLemore was not a presumed OAD, but developed into a guy that only played one season (here for two seasons).
While I would ignore OADs, I know Self won’t. And I’m good with selective “fits” when adding OADs. But running a program just pursuing the supposed best players? I’ll skip it.
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McLemore was OAD @HighEliteMajor
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@BShark McLemore sat his first season because of academic issues. McLemore was #34 with Rivals. He was not a presumed OAD. But to that point, my analysis is always on presumed OADs. You can’t control whether a guy actually leaves (Like Embiid). But if you know a guy has the intention to just play one season – Wiggins, Oubre, JJ, Cliff, Diallo – then you could avoid those guys. Not always black and white, but each season we seem to have a pretty good idea.
