Sam Cunliffe: MIA
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@HighEliteMajor What’s your take on giving some of Marcus G minutes to Sam C?
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@HighEliteMajor I agree, it seems Self has dialed back the quick hook a bit this year, thankfully. Though Cunliffe might think otherwise.
Not agreeing as much on not seeing Cunliffe having anything over Garrett or Malik. Those two have had a lot of game minutes to show their stuff (and I’ve not been impressed with what I’ve seen vs minutes given). Cunliffe hasn’t had a tenth of those minutes to shine - or to fail. Of course, as mentioned before, I’m not the Hall of Fame coach who sees them all in practice every day, so I could very well be completely wrong. Regardless, practice and game minutes aren’t the same, and I’d sure like to see the kid get at least 15 unyanked minutes just once to prove himself. Sure doesn’t seem like it would be that big of a dangerous step down in quality over the other two that it would actually change the outcome of a game where the matchups looked okay for doing this.
Lastly, my memory aint what it used to be and I’m hazy about remembering the Reed/Morningstar thing. Are you saying if we played them less and played Selby and __________ more and we’d have won an NC? Not disagreeing, just can’t remember.
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IMO, the only reason Sammy isn’t playing much lately is because we have another Big! That’s it. We got Silvio cleared and now we have post depth…sorta. When we didn’t have him, our guards were our team. Plus Dok of course. And, no I’m not belittling Mitch. But we needed another body and Sam was the only one available. Point blank.
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Since Sam became eligible, other than the Stanford game when he played 9 minutes, KU has not had a game where it was far ahead enough to experiment. Unless KU gets an easy game in the future, I don’t see Sam getting a lot of playing time since winning games is now priority one.
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@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?
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@StLJhawk On Cunliffe, I don’t see more upside this season. Meaning, I think the better gamble is on Garrett and Newman to be better in March. But I’m not certain by any means.
Now, in 2011, I was certain. If we didn’t have either Reed or Morningstar, I think the EJ, Selby, Releford combo would have been better. EJ proved his worth in huge games playing the 2 spot in 2011/2012. He was a pure 2 (that I mistook as a possible 1). In hindsight, he should have started at the 2 from day one and been left alone. And if he and Selby were simply played instead of sitting behind Brady and Tyrel, I will go to my grave believing we win the title. Releford hurt his ankle, So was less available. But we all saw him perform the next year as well. He and EJ, as a combo, were just better. Selby needed major PT. He was a talent that needed some patience. Self had his security blankets that were safe. That reliance on safety ended up being fatal.
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@HighEliteMajor My issue with EJ was that he was always an incredibly streaky player, even at his best in 2011-12. Selby was also injured most of the season after he got eligible. Selby was never going to approach his ceiling in year 1 at Kansas because of his injury and was not better than Morningstar or Reed after his injury.
Morningstar and Reed may not have had the ceiling that EJ or Selby had, but they were much more consistent which is what that group needed more in the long term with Tyshawn taking over the full time PG duties and being inconsistent at best at that point as a PG.
In a different universe with Selby not getting injured, he possibly takes the lead guard role from Taylor, but we’ll never know because of that injury to Selby.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 We lost to VCU. Brady/Reed were a combined 2-16. That entire season I predicted exactly what happened. I whined and complained about Morningstar constantly. I suggested that in high leverage games, those lower talent guys would cost us. Eerily similar to our Landen Lucas experiences. We can make all the arguments we want about those three guys, but in our last games of the season (which of course by default become the most important) they were major weak links. Selby played in every game he was eligible, except in early February. The injury was done. Self abandoned him, in favor of the low talent duo. When you look at his games when he played over 20 minutes, together, it showed his worth. EJ/Selby all day over Brady/Reed. All day.
All both of them needed was playing time.
Releford was clearly better. He hurt his ankle, but when he got back, he was better too. Had an excellent game against MU in February.
Self blew it 2011. Poor personnel decisions. Of course, we might not have been in the Elite 8 vs. VCU, in that precise spot should another path have been chosen. But the universe of possibilities is too much to consider.
That’s way long ago. Just my opinion. I’ve been told a million times that I’m wrong. But I’m right. To my grave believing I’m right on that. My mind will never change.
And I don’t think Bill Self today, would make those same decisions in 2011.
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@HighEliteMajor I concur with your comments. I think Self should give some of his minutes to Sam. I feel it would bring more competition and would provide meaningful minutes to Sam to showcase his abilities and increase his confidence.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@AsadZ I am big Garrett fan. But I’m a bit discouraged by his timidity on offense. I get that he’s not a great shooter, but he’s had good opportunities to drive and yet he defers. Also, he seemed strangely a bit hesitant to attack the boards. I think Self sees the defense thing as a necessary element, but I would strongly consider playing Sam over Marcus if Marcus doesn’t show some improvement offensively. Marcus does move the ball well and is a nice post feeder, channeling some inner B-star. Right now I’d stick with Garrett. Tough call. What do you think?
Garrett for Malik. (Let our other guys shoot)
Garrett with Malik. (Let Malik create)
Garret for Svi. (Let Garrett rebound)
Cunliffe isn’t that versatile.
Cunliffe sits.
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@AsadZ Which one do you think, though, Sam or Marcus, if say both got 20 minutes per game, would be the better player for this team in March? Which one is the better gamble on the minutes available?
I think Self is choosing Marcus because he brings a high end talent to the lineup defensively, something we need.
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To suggest that Reed and Morningstar were responsible for the defeat because of how they shot during a NCAA game ignores not only their other contributions but also the dismal ball handling by Kief. 8 turnovers was the killer, not missed shots.
Your argument that Selby would have taken us to the Final 4 and a trophy if better prepared (by taking more of Brady’s minutes) ignores his poor performance in the VCU game and his own poor fg shooting (37 % for the year). More tellingly, it ignores the history of some of our deepest teams or most experienced superstars who had poor performances in the our elimination games–witness Graham’s 0 for 12 in 3 pt shooting over the last two E8 games. Or our experienced team’s inability to make layups against UCLA, or the super-experienced 2003 team’s abysmal FT shooting in the final.
You have made Selby into a fantasy hero who would have taken us not only past VCU, but also through the semifinal and to the net cutting ceremony. The same guy who didn’t cut it in the NBA or the D League. All because Self didn’t replace his Big 12 1st Team Defensive Team honoree with the superstar who, given the chance, pretty much failed to demonstrate his super ability.
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@mayjay I appreciate all of that, but you weren’t around for the arguments. It was a knockout. I won. You must assume that I don’t recall much of this. My argument is not that “Selby would have taken us to the final four.” Fake news. I never argued for Selby to be the one guy to take Brady’s minutes. My argument was that EJ, Releford, and Selby were better than those two (Morningstar/Reed). In fact, I was much more on the EJ bandwagon. I argued to bench both Reed/Morningstar, and go with EJ, Releford, and Selby in place of their minutes. That by March, we’d have better players.
First, I assume that you checked and saw that the turnover margin in favor of VCU was only +1. So turnovers were a push. In fact, you would expect against VCU and their style of play the margin might have been higher.
Second, do you even know how many of Markieff’s turnovers led to points? Uh, just two. Already heard that argument. Already defeated it. Further, as I recall the topic, Markieff had 7 turnovers. The play by play showed 7 not 8. Still high, but that’s my recollection.
I said time after time during the season that playing those two would cost us. It did. What seemed apparent was that in games vs. top teams, I never suggest something is the only reason. Big, big reason in this game. Selby, EJ, and Releford were way underutilized heading into the tourney. Look at their minutes. The same things we talk about now – giving players game experience so they are comfortable and ready for the moment – were true then. If those three guys would have played all year, over Morningstar/Reed, we would have had better players. Some proof, in part, look at what we had in EJ and Releford the NCAA tourney in 2012. EJ at the 2, and Releford at the 3 were better overall players. If someone would rather have the Reed/Morningstar, more power to them. I’d kick their tails with EJ and Releford. In fact, it is interesting that both guys somehow won an Elite 8 game in 2012, and a FF game that same year.
It is pretty funny. Two guys that went 2-16 from the field were not a major component to the loss, according to you.
And then you reference pro ball – what are Reed and Morningstar doing? Nothing. It was unreal during that season how many folks were actually suggesting those guys could play pro, even NBA. I was the bad guy because I pointed out the complete absurdity.
Anyway, I grant you that you could be right. Heck, we could have lost before the Elite 8 if the path were different after playing those three. But it matters little what anyone says to me on this topic. I’m a rock head and not changing my mind.
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You make many solid points.
I have long been a Brady advocate.
HEM has long found him lacking.
Selby?
Selby started late, briefly played explosively early, then spent much of his time playing in a boot, then came back some. Selby played a wing to get all our best players on the floor at the same time. He was a good, green, slightly TO prone college player, when healthy who would have developed into an all conference, and maybe an all American had he opted for 2-3 year career. But his mother and Carmelo-related mentor were determined to cash in early. Self had to marginalize him once the injury limited him and he would not commit to another season. He just did not bring enough value to the program to give him the keys and keep other player development for that and the following season from happening. And, in the end, Self’s judgement was vindicated, because Selby never did excel at the next level. Like so many guys with a lot of athleticism at 6-3 and under, he just wasn’t the perfectionist floor gamer and lock down defender, or the high percentage 3pt shooter he would have had to be to become either another Jason Kidd (his only viable path) or another Vinnie Microwave Johnson. Selby had superstar hype with 5 star athleticism and 3-4 star skills. Selby committed to Bruce at UTenn, before Bruce was exposed and imploded. That’s really all you need to know about Selby. The mentor appArrently knew the hype game and got him his 5 stars and 1 rank; then fed him to schlocky, hustling Bruce. He and Mom let the mentor take them for a ride from the start. They apparently ran to Self and KU for PR cover, when Bruce and his gun happy, joy riding program couldn’t deliver the incentives.
I used to think: Josh coulda been uh contenduh!
But since Selby washed out in the L so quickly, I have come to believe his mentor saw the same holes in Josh’s game Self did and decided it was better to take an early score, at 49th in the draft, rather than wait for a 6-2 NBA long-career, long shot to develop under Self.
After all the hype, here is who Josh Selby really was.
2011–2013 Memphis Grizzlies 2012 →Reno Bighorns 2013 Canton Charge 2013 Maine Red Claws 2013 Qingdao Eagles 2014 Cedevita Zagreb 2014–2015 Bnei Herzliya 2015–2016 Socar Petkim 2017 Maccabi Kiryat Gat 2017–present Incheon Elephants
He was like many 4-5 year KU players that went on to 10 year careers overseas. That’s who Josh Selby really was behind the hype. There was no Long career NBA player there ever.
This is NOT meant as a criticism of him. I like Selby and thought he played through courageously at KU. He probably would have lasted a few years longer in L, if he had stayed 2 more years at KU, but someone apparently ran the numbers and said the present worth of three years now getting paid, is greater than what you would get 3 years later with only a slightly longer shelf life in the L. Selby, like Keith Langford, has done just fine.
But KU sure could have used him another couple years!!!
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FWIW, I believe that Selby had the talent to play in the NBA, he was the Summer League MVP. His problems were more mental and off the court not his lack of basketball talent. At KU I remember him as being “selfish” and not in a Coach Self follower kind of way.
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2011 is the sorest of sore subjects for me.
@jaybate-1-0 You said, “I have long been a Brady advocate. HEM has long found him lacking.”
If there is another topic that created more words of debate between the two of us, I’m struggling to recall it. Long, long ago, I think we finally agreed to disagree. Or something like that …
@JayHawkFanToo If Selby would have had one shred of sense (or a parent or parents that had any sense) he would have stayed at KU, listened, learned, and become as star. If he had done that, I bet he’s in the NBA right now.
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Yes, but it was out of that debate that emerged a new standard of civil discourse that has distinguished our online community from all others and stands still as a lonely lighthouse in the stormy internet of our time. I have been so enriched by getting to read your thoughts in the years since and so grateful for your intuitive efforts to work together to make this a more and more special sanctuary of thought and camaraderie over the ensuing years. Really, I track some of the origins of the intelligence and civility of our community to your and my reaching out to each other across our conflict and saying the neighborhood and the legacy matters more than one of us being right. I began to understand what I hoped could happen between us, and so for our beloved little community, when I was coincidentally reading about the initially stormy relationship of John Adams and Thomas Jefferson. We are not weighty figures like them, but I figured if we could find peace as they did over time, it could yield the great benefit of a model for the community. I feel it has in some small way. It is not enough to agree to disagree. The trick is to agree to disagree with genuine affection and respect. No one can do it with everyone, but everyone can do it with someone, and before you know it, lots ARE doing it with many. I genuinely believe this is the key to functional republics and online communities.
I genuinely like and respect you and enjoy both the times we agree and the times we don’t.
Rock Chalk!
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I’m glad to read so much conversation about PT. It will be good practice for next year, when we all surely battle over who will get the minutes!
I know we are all complaining about not having depth this year… but at least we don’t have to watch so much talent rot away at the end of the bench!
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You have gone to the heart of the only orginal philosophical principle I have developed in my life.And I am sure someone else has come to the same insight, but I at least came to it on my own.
EVERYTHING IS PROBLEMATIC, SO CONSTANTLY IMPROVE AT PROBLEM SOLVING.
Lack of depth is one problem.
Too much is another.
Just the right amount is another, because soon too many injuries and bad life choices will leave you unprepared for too little talent.
And so on.
Problems are ubiquitous.
As Roseanne Rosannadanna said, “If it’s not one thing, it’s another.
All one can do is steer toward solvable problems.
My old mentor said: a good life is an endless stream of solvable problems.
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@HighEliteMajor You are right about me not including the EJ and Releford parts of your argument. That was because a lot of your discussion today was about Selby, so I jumped on that. And I actually was around for those arguments over the years, but only as a lurker not as a participant on either board.
Releford is a perfect example of someone I always thought would do great if given more opportunity, but when he was he did not seem to be consistently aggressive enough: he would show a nice deep range on a 3 but then not attempt another shot for 6 minutes. Frustrating! But I will never forget his RS year when every single bench camera shot showed him jumping and screaming his supportc and that huge smile as he high-5ed everybody. Mitch does that this year, but he is playing. TReleford was fully participating best he could while not playing. An admirable trait.
I only brought up the NBA to show, exactly as 'bate has posted, that Selby’s ceiling was not as high as we thought (and, by the way, I wanted him playing more), so the inference is fair that he might not have performed at a higher level given more PT. So the pro careers of Reed and Mstar are not relevant to that discussion.
I think Selby’s injury lingered a lot longer than he let on, and he hid it for the draft.
Kief’s turnovers may not have led to VCU pts, but they cost KU at least 8 points if we avg 1 pt per possession.
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@HighEliteMajor I feel by giving minutes to both, each player has the capability to help in March. They have their strengths and shortcomings, one is strong in D/rebounding and other on Offense. I think both will help in March but both need minutes especially Sam for his confidence.
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@mayjay I’m no fan of those turnovers. And surely, no doubt, they were a component in the loss. As a lurker, you exercised great restraint. Releford was one of my favorite Jayhawks. Selby perhaps one of my least favorite. Brady was a five year, bled crimson and blue guy. I would take Brady (and EJ/Releford/Reed) as a part of this program any day over Selby. No doubt.
@jaybate-1-0 Really appreciate that. Very nice of you. We did go through a period of lively debate, shall we say, back at kusports.com. Smoking the peace pipe over there was an important step. One thing I will say is that in the many aspects of my life, reading your posts (and re-reading them as is sometimes necessary for me to even attempt to comprehend your higher level of thought and expression), is as educational for me as anything I am exposed to. You have made us all smarter. And you have made all of us think much more than we otherwise would. Rock Chalk back at you, a great respect, my friend.
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@HighEliteMajor I was playing golf then. Since that time, I had to get a new hobby. My wife calls this “your little basketball friends group.”
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Lots to take up here.
There are two schools of thought. One is to go to your core group of players early, and ride that group as far as the core will take you. This is the “high floor” argument. You sacrifice some upside along the way at times, but you know you are getting production at level X all the time.
The other method is the high ceiling method. Maybe you lose a game here or there working with raw, but talented players, but you can realize the highest potential that way.
Self, by his nature, is prone to favor the high floor. You don’t win 13 conference titles in a row (and finish either first or second in your conference every year since the Clinton administration - true fact, look it up) without getting a high baseline of production every season.
But there’s a cost to that. I’ve written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs.
The 2011 season will continue to haunt KU because that was, in many ways, Self’s best overall team. The very next year the leftovers from that team - Johnson, Releford, Taylor and Robinson - took an otherwise undermanned KU team all the way to the national final!!! How does that group, plus two lottery picks end up losing to a good but not great VCU team? And how do Morningstar and Reed combine for 16 (16!!!) shots when neither one was hot?
Self, in many ways, is a better coach when he is somewhat limited, because he’s prone to tighten his rotation in tough situations anyway. Remember 2008? That team went 8 deep, but in the national title game, all of the minutes went to basically seven guys - Rush, Chalmers, Collins, Arthur, and Jackson each played 29 or more minutes. Kaun and Robinson both played about 20. Aldrich played a token 4 minutes that even the biggest KU fan can’t really remember (he did not record a stat). Give Self a lineup he can roll with and a couple of token subs, and he’s happy.
In some ways, that’s what is exciting about this year’s squad if Billy Preston becomes available. All of a sudden the rotation on the perimeter is Graham, Newman, Svi, Vick and the rotation in the post is Azubuike, Preston, Lightfoot, with Garrett and De Sousa taking the roles as bit players. With that group, Self is no longer tinkering with minutes. He plays his 3 out, 2 in, rotating Lightfoot as the stretch man inside, while Newman fills the Sherron Collins role of instant offense off the bench. Collins played huge minutes for KU that year - he missed six full games and still played just 300 fewer minutes than starter Russell Robinson (the only player to start every game that season). Newman could revive that role, and might even find himself offensively.
Of course, all of this still depends on Preston…
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Selby definitely had the talent for the NBA as shown by his domination in the Summer League and he also played relatively well in the short time he played in the NBA; what he did not have is the temperament for the League. Some players have it and some just don’t.
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@jaybate-1.0 “My old mentor said: a good life is an endless stream of solvable problems.”
Nice! Just added that to my quote book.
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No Preston but we do have Silvio
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We do, but Silvio doesn’t have the offensive skill that Preston does. Silvio won’t command consistent double teams in the post. He won’t hit 15 foot jumpers.
Silvio compares favorably to Darnell Jackson and I hope he has that type of career. But Preston is so much more skilled. That’s a huge thing.
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justanotherfan said:
We do, but Silvio doesn’t have the offensive skill that Preston does. Silvio won’t command consistent double teams in the post. He won’t hit 15 foot jumpers.
Silvio compares favorably to Darnell Jackson and I hope he has that type of career. But Preston is so much more skilled. That’s a huge thing.
I agree Preston had more offensive skill and there are not many players that size that can shoot or handle the ball like he can. Basketball is more then what a player can do on offense as we all know. I feel confident saying silvio is more of a bill self type player that could fit into a role this team may need going forward. Of course we need to see more of what he’s capable of doing before we can fully assess his capability here
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Silvio managed to get three fouls in two minutes and log no other stats.
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BShark said:
Silvio managed to get three fouls in two minutes and log no other stats.
Refs sent a message to him. Young pup will learn
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@BeddieKU23 Definitely. It should be sobering for anyone that thought he’d be a force this year though.
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BShark said:
@BeddieKU23 Definitely. It should be sobering for anyone that thought he’d be a force this year though.
Baylor has a tough long team. He just took himself out the game fouling
Few weeks from now I think we see different
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I thought he’d be able to get his rear into someone and box out, before his man got the ball!
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Can Silvio shoot throws?
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
Can Silvio shoot throws?
I would assume better than Doke.
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@BShark My mother, when stuck in her wheelchair, could have been better at shooting FTs than Dok.
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Seriously, someone google it
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Anybody else watch post game?
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mayjay said:
@BShark My mother, when stuck in her wheelchair, could have been better at shooting FTs than Dok.
PHOF
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I didn’t see Drew, wondered what his excuse was? Did he ask Fran for help w/ blaming refs?
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@justanotherfan wrote: But there’s a cost to that. I’ve written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs.
Self does not believe in good losses as some other coaches atest. I agree with his philosophy.
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Gunman said:
@justanotherfan wrote: But there’s a cost to that. I’ve written many times on this board that the streak in some ways is a curse for KU hoops because trying to make sure we beat Texas Tech or Baylor in January or February prevents us from getting ready for March. We have yet to find a way to balance those costs. Self does not believe in good losses as some other coaches atest. I agree with his philosophy.
It’s different this year though. Cunliffe is the only guy that doesn’t really play and I don’t think him playing some now makes this team better for March.
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Cunliffe can shoot. Shooters get hot. How many times have we fallen victim to a hot shooter in March who averages 5 or 6 points a game, then hits five threes against us? And yet we never seem to have that guy on our side… wonder why?
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We start 4 shooters…
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@justanotherfan A player just wants a chance to prove his worth. If a kid sees the writing on the wall then he’s hoping for injuries or foul trouble for his teammates so he gets his chance. Get the kid in for several first half minutes and see if you can afford to let him back in the second half. It’s not like he couldn’t have played while later in the first half. We weren’t sharp anyway. How can a guy sit for a month and come in to save the game especially from a shooting standpoint?
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BShark said:
We start 4 shooters…
It seems more like 2-3. It doesn’t seem like Vick and Newman can get hot on the same night. Other nights, neither are hot. If we can get all 4 hot in a big game? Well, lock the door, mama!
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@BShark Garrett is a liability on Offense, his rebounding and D is solid but the kid just can’t score. Yesterday he even missed many FTs, almost cost us the game. One easy way to get Sam on the court is by giving some of MG’s minutes to Sam.
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Self isn’t doing it though, for whatever reason. I kind of wonder if Cunliffe is going to transfer again.
