Silvio and the Perimeter Hit
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@HighEliteMajor I think it’s the biggest story of the season. We lost to a VCU team that simply cut off the hi-lo, and we were helpless against them. We had no ability to match up to a 4 out team defensively or offensively. We had no weapons on the perimeter, while our NBA bigs sat there helplessly. Then the 4 out system comes into play ( evolved by Perry Ellis inability to play back to the basket, imo ), and then with recent roster necessity, and all of a sudden, our offense purrs along like a 400 hp hemi engine. The only problem with the 4 out is you have to make the shots because it certainly leaves you vulnerable on the boards.
I chided you a little about the Cunliffe DNP a little, because it was your first take on the game, not the 17 for 35 from 3. And i think there was a real good reason why Sam got the full bench treatment- when you’re planning on moving minutes from the perimeter to the bigs anyway, the last thing you need would be for Cunliffe to go off, and make a case for more playing time. They are already bracing Newman for less playing time, which will be inevitable with DeSilvo and possibly Preston on board.
So, it means we will be able to play the 3/2 or the 4/1 offensively and defensively. It means at some point in the season, we could play both systems during a game. With 2 bigs, it will allow us to extend our perimeter defense like 2008. And rebound. With 4 guards, we’ll be able to isolate, and match up with the smaller teams. The key is to get those two bigs 1) eligible and 2) on board with the program.
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@BigBad And DG isn’t a leader, right? That’s what you said during the game on Friday. Since I was quoting Bill Self on his desire to go to the 3/2 at least 50% of the game by February, are you trying to say you know Bill better than he does? That might be your most egotistical statement yet.
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3-2…
Not.
Going.
To.
Hap.
On New Years Eve anything seems possible.
On New Year’s Day it’s back to reality.
Self can’t win a 14th Title breaking in a high school senior. Dissociative State. I was in it. I know.
Self can’t get a player back that offers to pay back what an alum paid on wheels. Dissociative State. I was in it. I know.
De Sousa and Sosinski are breathers for Doke, if Doke can keep playing.
The starting 5 is the starting 5.
We are talking WYSIWYG.
Self fears the team shooting slump looming.
But he has to run with what he brung.
Unless D-CIA can beam an alien footer in from Nibiru, as part of a New Years psy-op, no change.
Self is just giving opposing coaches a distraction.
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@KUSTEVE Yes because coach is totally open and honest with the press. It isnt arrogance, it’s years of watching.
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KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad And DG isn’t a leader, right? That’s what you said during the game on Friday.
I’m a fan and I don’t owe these guys anything. It isn’t a crime to call it like I see it. I don’t find Devonte Graham to be suited to lead from the PG position, shoot me. He takes awful shots and has to be told over and over again to run the offense and get the ball inside, as a SENIOR. Notice he had ZERO assists in the first half on Friday? I guarantee he got lit up by Self at half, then had 8 assists in the second. He tends to only play hard D after made shot(s), like an immature player does. Go back and watch Fridays game and watch how much he stands around and watches on the defensive end. I do understand he is really playing out of position and he is asked to play a ton of minutes, but as a senior he needs to make better decisions, play hard on the defensive end, and lead by example.
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@drgnslayr I think Self incorporates all that is best with our perimeter game. He, I’m sure, is salivating over a team with 3 point shooters like DG, Vick, and Svi, with the possibility of diverse “easy” baskets down low. All of that can hide defensive deficiencies.
@KUSTEVE By the lack of weapons on the perimeter, I presume, you are referring to the reliance on Reed and Morningstar? Did you know that our team rebounds per game are more this season, and last season, than in the last five prior, including 2011-12? Ah, but stats can be deceiving – our possessions per game were up, so rebounding percentages down. Mason and JJ were great last season. But given our scheme, I’m not disappointed in our rebounding. Rebounds come differently. Also, on our shooting vs. Texas, I don’t get real excited about making high percentages of shots, nor bad percentages, game to game. That will happen. Within a certain range, it’s not what will win or lose you a title.
@BigBad What do you see as “significant” – 20 minutes? 15 minutes? See my suggestion below. Is that more what you envision?
@jaybate-1-0 Doke plays 30 minutes, and plays 5 with DeSousa. DeSousa plays 10 more minutes while Doke is out, and plays those with Lightfoot. Lightfoot plays 5 minutes with Doke - Doke 30 minutes, DeSousa and Lightfoot, 15 minutes each = 20 minutes on the floor conventionally. That’s how easy it is. And that’s the top end minutes wise. However, there may be times when playing big is required. Under your suggestion, DeSousa spelling Doke, it can work just this way. But it will be a progression, not an immediate thing, of course.
You said, “Self fears the team shooting slump looming.” I would say Self knows what he doesn’t want to experience, and he (like any other coach) would like options.
Breaking in DeSousa will take time; or if the hologram appears and is real. Gearing everything to March.
Question - Do we think Mitch can hit the 15 footer? Elbow to Elbow? Or DeSousa? And how good of a passer are the pair from up top? Bragg good, or just passable? I don’t know.
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@HighEliteMajor Cheick Diallo averaged 7.5 Minutes per game for us, and I’d be surprised if Silvio got more than that. Obviously Traylor was 1st big off bench, but my point is talent doesnt always get the minutes under Self.
Anything over 10 min would be “significant” I guess.
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@BigBad One has to keep in mind that DG is playing almost 40 minutes/game and he is the only PG on our team. He is our main ball handler. We are a very thin team. As it is he is being taxed. I see him playing hard already and I just cannot imagine how much harder he has to play under the current circumstances.
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BigBad said:
Silvio is not, I repeat NOT going from high school to Big12 play and getting any significant minutes. Anyone remember Oubre not starting? Josh Selby was the #1 player ranked in his high school class and missed some early games and ended up sitting!!! I know this team is thin but Self loathes freshman mental mistakes.
Selby also got nicked up and was in general a bust but your point is still well taken.
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One of the things I really miss about Roy (love me some Roy don’t really miss him) was his teams ability to destroy the full court press. He turned it into a scoring opportunity. The press was usually a mistake to use against KU back then.
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I just don’t see De Sousa playing 15 minutes any time soon, maybe towards the end of the season. I can see it being more likely Preston playing 15 minutes…if he is ever cleared. Having said that, if Preston is not cleared by the start of classes I doubt he would want to attend school if he is not playing. He could not wait a few months for a car so I don’t see him waiting a few months to start getting paid; he will likely sign with an agent and get some advance cash against future earnings and bolt.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I just don’t see De Sousa playing 15 minutes any time soon, maybe towards the end of the season. I can see it being more likely Preston playing 15 minutes…if he is ever cleared. Having said that, if Preston is not cleared by the start of classes I doubt he would want to attend school if he is not playing. He could not wait a few months for a car so I don’t see him waiting a few months to start getting paid; he will likely sign with an agent and get some advance cash against future earnings and bolt.
Preston would be better served practicing with this team. He can attend classes and just coast, like UK players all do.
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We really need Billy. He knows the system, has had more time practicing with this group, and he has a skill set that should really mesh with this team for what we need RIGHT NOW.
I’m not trying to be negative about Silvio. He will be a huge help… eventually. But if he is all the extra help we are going to get, we will at least get a lift by having another thick big. From what I hear and read, Silvio should be a very fast learner, sort of like Doke has been. I will be shocked if he isn’t a big help by the end of this year. The problem is we are in conference play NOW!
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If we don’t get Preston, I see DeSousa, by early February, playing 10-15 minutes per game. More minutes if Doke or Mitch suffer injury. If Silvio is a quick learner who stays free of injury, perhaps 15-20 minutes by mid March. Jay Bilas seems to think we will get the services of Preston. Has Jay merely bought in to Self-speak?
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@REHawk yes! I don’t think he knows anymore than the rest of us.
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REHawk said:
If we don’t get Preston, I see DeSousa, by early February, playing 10-15 minutes per game. More minutes if Doke or Mitch suffer injury. If Silvio is a quick learner who stays free of injury, perhaps 15-20 minutes by mid March. Jay Bilas seems to think we will get the services of Preston. Has Jay merely bought in to Self-speak?
Just a little side note on De Sousa - - -I heard somewhere now I can’t remember for sure that he is indeed a quick learner - -that would be nice, man we can sure use another big - - - just sooo thin up front. - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@drgnslayr Your right. We sure could use Billy, we need him pretty bad. Probably just me my eyes probably deceiving me, but Billy looks thicker then what I thought he was. Thicker then when he was playing those All star games - - -maybe not, but sure looks really solid. We could use that for sure, someone that can maintain their ground battle you know?
Silvio looks pretty cut too - good to get some Bigger guys - let’s still maintain our hope that we get both. - -We get both, makes a WORLD of difference to this team, change the whole complexity/makeup for sure. -If nothing else just to factor in the depth of the front line, plus you figure Billy would sure add some productivity for sure, probably more then De Sousa at least for now anyways as he knows the system and been working out with the guys all year. That’s not a knock on De Sousa just Billy has been here longer – knows more. ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@JayHawkFanToo I too think if this doesn’t get settled pretty quick now, Billy will probably just pull out – -sign with an agent like you say and just spend the ret of the year preparing for the NBA draft. - - You can bet his frustration is really building and eating him up right now.
Maybe we hear something by the end of this week. NCAA opens back up today, Coach said thinks we will be hearing something soon. Yet how long have we been hearing this. - Let’s hope Billy and the team get’s this behind them and Billy can get on the floor with us soon - -We sure need him. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Interesting comments about perimeter minutes possibly going down with De Sousa here. It makes sense but it’s always interesting to hear it from the man in charge. In a perfect world I would think De Sousa is backup to Doke, bigger, more athletic, college ready body when he’s learned his job. The key is how quickly can he learn his job and earn the trust of his coach. Is that sometime in January or the back end of conference play in February? We literally have nothing to compare it to at KU. Nationally the only Top-40 player to join midway from HS was Austin Wiley (5 star Center) at Auburn last season and he was solid but didn’t make Auburn better. They went 11-11 with him in the lineup.
Giving Mitch the ability to be the sub in a traditional 3-2 set and getting him back to his real position instead of subbing at the 5 position could be critical. Mitch still gets his rotation minutes but either Newman sees less court time or Garrett sees less as the freshman low on the totem pole. If the Texas game was anything its Marcus that probably see’s less time on a regular basis although I would strongly disagree with that move.
The key of course is whether Mitch’s minutes at his traditional position increases his effectiveness on the court. I’m hopeful it helps but I’m not confident its enough. Despite Newman’s struggles he’s a double figure scorer and despite Garrett’s lack of a perimeter shot and scoring in general his defensive impact is remarkable for a freshman. At some point one of these guys is going to improve their weaknesses. I see Mitch’s shortcomings as harder to overcome then the guards. Mitch brings terrific effort and is a team-oriented player but his development is still behind and a work in progress.
I know we have looked at the additions of De Sousa and Preston possibly getting eligible as game-changers but what if it all backfires? We’re just getting our feet wet in conference play, most teams are really getting settled in with rotations. This is uncharted territory for Self, adding players mid-season and plugging them into the current chemistry of the team. This is where Self gets to potentially show off his coaching prowess. He’s in a unique position to change on the fly mid-season and push this team to what it could be by the time March hits.
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BigBad said:
KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad And DG isn’t a leader, right? That’s what you said during the game on Friday.
I’m a fan and I don’t owe these guys anything. It isn’t a crime to call it like I see it. I don’t find Devonte Graham to be suited to lead from the PG position, shoot me. He takes awful shots and has to be told over and over again to run the offense and get the ball inside, as a SENIOR. Notice he had ZERO assists in the first half on Friday? I guarantee he got lit up by Self at half, then had 8 assists in the second. He tends to only play hard D after made shot(s), like an immature player does. Go back and watch Fridays game and watch how much he stands around and watches on the defensive end. I do understand he is really playing out of position and he is asked to play a ton of minutes, but as a senior he needs to make better decisions, play hard on the defensive end, and lead by example.
Ya , your right you are a fan and owe nothing to anybody here , and it’s not a crime. I too am that way but I have people here that have issues with me and my post /and things I say at times, we don’t agree on things at times but it’s ok love the site and people’s opinions ya know?
The difference I have with you on what you said is he only plays " HARD D " after made shot(s) . - - -umm THAT is not true. - -Not sure if your memory failed you or not but do you happen to remember back to last year - -who was assigned to Buddy when we played at Oklahoma? - - Do you happen to remember what happened with Buddy in that game? - -he got SHUT DOWN - -and no defense Devonte is the one that did that. - To say Devonte only plays hard after made shots couldn’t be further off, you think he doesn’t play hard you might as well say none of them play hard on the defensive end and that’s just not true.
Awful shot? - - -he is one of the better shooters on the team, - -he is shooting right around 43% from the 3 which for 3 pt shooting is pretty decent. - it’s ok you have your opinions on things but I just think you might be a hair of on some. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Jayballer54 said:
BigBad said:
KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad And DG isn’t a leader, right? That’s what you said during the game on Friday.
I’m a fan and I don’t owe these guys anything. It isn’t a crime to call it like I see it. I don’t find Devonte Graham to be suited to lead from the PG position, shoot me. He takes awful shots and has to be told over and over again to run the offense and get the ball inside, as a SENIOR. Notice he had ZERO assists in the first half on Friday? I guarantee he got lit up by Self at half, then had 8 assists in the second. He tends to only play hard D after made shot(s), like an immature player does. Go back and watch Fridays game and watch how much he stands around and watches on the defensive end. I do understand he is really playing out of position and he is asked to play a ton of minutes, but as a senior he needs to make better decisions, play hard on the defensive end, and lead by example.
Ya , your right you are a fan and owe nothing to anybody here , and it’s not a crime. I too am that way but I have people here that have issues with me and my post /and things I say at times, we don’t agree on things at times but it’s ok love the site and people’s opinions ya know?
The difference I have with you on what you said is he only plays " HARD D " after made shot(s) . - - -umm THAT is not true. - -Not sure if your memory failed you or not but do you happen to remember back to last year - -who was assigned to Buddy when we played at Oklahoma? - - Do you happen to remember what happened with Buddy in that game? - -he got SHUT DOWN - -and no defense Devonte is the one that did that. - To say Devonte only plays hard after made shots couldn’t be further off, you think he doesn’t play hard you might as well say none of them play hard on the defensive end and that’s just not true.
Awful shot? - - -he is one of the better shooters on the team, - -he is shooting right around 43% from the 3 which for 3 pt shooting is pretty decent. - it’s ok you have your opinions on things but I just think you might be a hair of on some. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
pretty sure he’s talking about Graham’s defense this season
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@BeddieKU23 maybe he is - - Personally I don’t really see that much difference this season from last season. Looks pretty much like the way Devonte has ALWAYS played to me. - --ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Too many minutes are making Devonte’ need to catch breathers on defense. He has the ball in his hands on offense and doesn’t push it too hard the whole game for that reason also. (I think) There is simply no way to sprint for 40 minutes straight!
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Yep I am referring to DGs defense THIS year. Guarding Buddy two years ago shows what he is capable of. Anyone whos played knows defense is more about effort rather than ability. I know the amount of minutes is most likely the main cause of less effort.
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Something doesn’t add up.
Going off of what Self said… that Mitch probably won’t lose PT… WHERE will his minutes come from?
Self also mentioned running the 4-1 offense half of the time.
It doesn’t add up that Mitch will get all his PT as a stretch 4. Not enough minutes there if Silvio is playing the 4, too, while we only use a post player at the 4 for half of a game.
I posted earlier that Mitch could start getting PT at the 3. That flew in here like a lead balloon… and that may have been the proper response.
Can we give Mitch minutes at the 3? Not sure we could…
I’m not sure Mitch will maintain his minutes if he doesn’t pick up other skills to help his range in other positions besides the stretch 4. His hustle is praised and extremely useful, but he has to provide more than just hustle.
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@drgnslayr Self said he will use two bigs at times to give guards a breather. I think he is playing for March after all. Flog them first semester, "light(foot)en up second semester. Maybe the goal is to reduce the chances of a recurrence of the deadly Devontacramps.
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@drgnslayr It’s going to take Silvio and Preston a month or two to have things figured out. Until then, we’ll see Lightfoot for 10 minutes a game, perhaps? After that, I’m not sure how much time he’ll get.
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@KUSTEVE Curious why anyone is optimistic that either de Sousa or Preston would be able to contribute much of anything at all at any point this season - given the track record of freshmen in HCBS’ system - especially the bigs like Diallo and Alexander??? They couldn’t figure it out by the end of the year. Heck, not sure Newman has figured it out yet, and he’s been practicing in the system for a year and has a half year playing in it.
Does anyone think they have that much skill or BBIQ to really make a positive contribution on the floor - that is, other than picking up fouls in emergency situations?
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I really like the recent video on de Souza- good handles for big, very smooth- good body for freshman- I think he can help on boards, and score a little. That plus 5 more fouls, protection against Dok’s back and he is better FT shooter than Dok for late game stuff, I would call that contribution enough for this year.
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Preston has been with the program since the Summer and by now should be familiar with the style of play and his teammates and thus it is not unrealistic to expect him to contribute like many top rated prospects do. De Sousa on the other hand should take longer to contribute.
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De Sousa has added some significant refinement to his jumpshot. It’s still not particularly quick, but he at least has a “keep-'em-honest” jumper. You can’t just leave him from mid range.
I am not as confident in his handle. I wouldn’t want him handling for anything more than a straightline drive. His handle is pretty loose, even in the open floor. I would hate to see what he would look like against even mild pressure, let alone something like what WVU does.
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True, I should have said, improved handle.
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drgnslayr said:
Something doesn’t add up.
Going off of what Self said… that Mitch probably won’t lose PT… WHERE will his minutes come from?
Self also mentioned running the 4-1 offense half of the time.
It doesn’t add up that Mitch will get all his PT as a stretch 4. Not enough minutes there if Silvio is playing the 4, too, while we only use a post player at the 4 for half of a game.
I posted earlier that Mitch could start getting PT at the 3. That flew in here like a lead balloon… and that may have been the proper response.
Can we give Mitch minutes at the 3? Not sure we could…
I’m not sure Mitch will maintain his minutes if he doesn’t pick up other skills to help his range in other positions besides the stretch 4. His hustle is praised and extremely useful, but he has to provide more than just hustle.
What I’m thinking is - -If Preston were to be cleared then , Mitch could spell him minutes for foul trouble - -same If it is just De Sousa and he plays the 4 - -so if De Sousa plays the 4 -then Mitch give him back up spot minutes- -plus still give Doke blows at the 5 - -maybe? - - - the combination of those two positions would continue to give him the or about the same amount of minutes as he is getting now right? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@DCHawker I would think that Preston, given the time he has spent practicing with the team combined with his unique skill set should be able to contribute. If he does not contribute quite a bit…we are merely a good team and won’t have a shot at a FF run. IMO
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DCHawker said:
@KUSTEVE Curious why anyone is optimistic that either de Sousa or Preston would be able to contribute much of anything at all at any point this season - given the track record of freshmen in HCBS’ system - especially the bigs like Diallo and Alexander??? They couldn’t figure it out by the end of the year. Heck, not sure Newman has figured it out yet, and he’s been practicing in the system for a year and has a half year playing in it.
Does anyone think they have that much skill or BBIQ to really make a positive contribution on the floor - that is, other than picking up fouls in emergency situations?
Well if Billy would happen to be cleared, he has a pretty good knowledge for sure of the system Coach runs. - -He made the trip abroad with the team and played & even though he is not cleared to play in games he has been practicing with the team every day. Actually there had been some rumor that Billy was practicing with the 1st unit making some to believe that this issue was really close to being resolves and trying to fit Billy back in the rotation with the 1st team. Billy should be able to contribute as soon as cleared. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@DCHawker Good question. The answer to me is we don’t know. Billy played a slew of games to start the season back in June, along with the exhibitions, and has been practicing the whole year. That would put him far ahead of Diallo. Diallo was also really new to the game…like just barely learning how to play. The 7 game absence was simply killer. Diallo was missing simple screens, and block outs, and just basic stuff our bigs have to do. I mean, he couldn’t beat out Lando. That should say alot. Cliff was a lump of poo. I mean, he cakewalked the whole time he was here. The best story about Cliff I read were fans reporting that Coach Self yelled at him on more than occasion if he just wanted to pack up and go home while he was on the court. That’s a guy that was completely deluded, and didn’t work a bit … just was going thru the motions. I think it’s safe to say Billy would be ahead of either one of those guys.
With Silvio, I think he is going to take a little longer. But, this is what I see he has going for him:
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He’s been playing organized basketball for 11 years. He was taught the game to be fundamentally sound, not on an AAU court, and it shows in his decision making and poise on the court.
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He is a relentless, aggressive rebounder…scouts call him “elite” at rebounding.
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If you watch his tapes, you see a chiseled athlete …a humble, poised athlete whose purpose is to win, not to impress people. That might seem like a small thing, but that attitude goes a long way with a guy like Self. Look at how much time Garrett and Lightfoot get right now, warts and all, because I think Coach wants to reward the players that put team first.
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He is flat tearing it up so far this year. I don’t think he will be score that much, but he is excellent on the free throw line ( once again, fundamentally sound ), and will be a guy we won’t mind going to the foul line when the game is on the line.
I am more excited about Silvio than Billy, although Billy might end up making a bigger splash.
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@BigBad I only gig you because you think you’re smarter than Coach and the rest of us. Just so you know, I’m setting you up to serve you a big plate of crow later on.
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The issue of kids “figuring it out” has always been, in large part, a red herring. Coaches at every level and in sports using a “system” adjust their system for the relative brains and talents of players. It’s simply the degree to which a coach is willing to adjust. In an extreme circumstance, if a kid only knows how to run an iso to the 5 hole, a sweep left, and swing pass, then a coach can decide whether to use the kid or not, given those parameters. It’s called, aptly, dumbing things down. Athletically, if you don’t have kids that can dunk, you don’t throw lobs. If you have kids that can’t remember to L-cut after the downscreen on the wing following a drop pass to the elbow, well, you have to decide what’s more important.
Some coaches are at fault for having too complex of a system to properly utilize their talented players. Focusing on the system, not the players. Of course, system can win. It’s a balance. Though I think the general consensus around here has been to always to immediately blame players, coaches all of over CBB, and at varying levels, adjust to their players. We should always look to the coach first. But a coach may be very reasonable in his demands.
So it’s up to Self as to how much dumbing down he’ll tolerate, balanced against our ability to succeed under those circumstances. There’s a tipping point where it’s not worth it to play a kid. And, of course, necessity determines how much a coach will tolerate.
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It is a very delicate option, juggling new members into a lineup at this stage of a hoops season. Preston has been around the program long enough to have learned lots, if he is a fairly quick learner. He might surprise all of us with a fast adjustment which won’t throw sand into the existing fairly smooth works. As for DeSousa, even if he is a quick learner, it is bound to take 7 weeks or so for him to integrate; and several dozen minutes of game time. There will definitely be some dumbing down instituted for either of these guys to fill vital roles this second semester. I think that either of them could occasionally fill enough of a role to assist the program in pursuit of #14 title. But if we forge to the Final 4 I would not expect them to be major difference makers. Just tangential helpers.
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@REHawk So, REHawk, I think you are declaring that we won’t see 20 minutes of 3-2 ball unless our 4-1 Jayhawks blast to impressive scoring leads?
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@REHawk waiting to hear what he says.
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KUSTEVE said:
@BigBad I only gig you because you think you’re smarter than Coach and the rest of us. Just so you know, I’m setting you up to serve you a big plate of crow later on.
Not eating any crow with this team this year. We are on the same team here, Jayhawk fans. I’d love to be wrong but I’m just realistic and knew this year was going to be a tough one.
