DeSousa
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If it’s just Cunliffe it’s really going to be a battle all year. Not every coach will be as dumb as Boeheim if and when Clay Young goes out there.
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BShark said:
If it’s just Cunliffe it’s really going to be a battle all year. Not every coach will be as dumb as Boeheim if and when Clay Young goes out there.
At least we’ll have 5 more fouls with Cunliffe. Taller, athletic. Self will have to get creative with Marcus and Sam
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Yeah, I’ll take Billy please!
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Athletes still have to clear the same admission bar that all other students have to clear.
ACT/SAT scores are part of the equation for admission.
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I believe the minimum acceptable ACT score is a 16 which is really bad. You get a 10 just for putting your name on the form…
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Even if Preston was eligible, it is shocking how thin we are in the post. We have a pretend PF in Lightfoot as a back up, and that’s it. We relied on three transfers for possible depth and they all bolted – Evan Maxwell, Jack Whitman, and Dwight Coleby.
We don’t talk about it a lot, because we love to praise Bill Self – but, as of now, this is a huge failure by coach Self. Perhaps one of the biggest of this tenure at KU. Leaving us this dangerously thin.
But failure is of course dependent on failure on the court. We’re 7-0. There’s no failure there. And it can only fairly be judged at the end of the season.
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There are things that are well beyond the coaching staff control. Once Preston signed other players saw too much competition and bolted and had Preston not signed I would think KU had other prospects that might have signed instead.
If I recall correctly, there was a concern about Preston clearing the NCAA and who would have thought that after he was cleared an unrelated issue like this would surface? Should KU run background checks on prospects, families and friends and hire PIs to do further digging? I think not. With Preston playing there are no issues. Can’t really blame Coach Self for this particular issue.
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@JayHawkFanToo First, I’m making my criticism even assuming we have Preston, as I had noted. Even with Preston, we are still dangerously thin. Preston’s issues could just as easily be a broken ankle, or other injury. Or it could be an injury to Doke. With Preston, we were dangerously thin.
I really disagree on the “can’t really blame Coach Self for this particular issue.” This is right at his doorstep. It’s his job. Self did not recruit and secure non-transfers to be foundational players. He relied upon the ever tenuous transfer players. Further, Bill Self made the choice on the three transfers that bolted. He failed on all three counts as all three turned out to be unreliable. The results (just as win-losses, etc., do) bear that out.
I think the Preston issue is a good distinction. Assuming of course Self had no inkling on Preston’s issues, this is much different than the Diallo academic mess. Diallo was buyer beware. No one rational would have simply assumed eligibility given that mess. It was a reasonable gamble given the late signing (Diallo). Preston appears, as you say, to be a surprise. You can’t really hire PIs.
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Again, you cannot place an order for the ideal transfer players, you have to take from what is available and the ones he got were coveted transfers. Coleby played well below expectation last season and there was no indication of improvement like we have seen as his new destination. He wanted and needed extended playing time if he has any hope of getting to the next levels and, if Preston is playing and the 'stache is producing, his playing time would have been very limited. It was the right move for Coleby and I don’t believe there was much Coach Self could offer to keep him.
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@JayHawkFanToo You said, “Again, you cannot place an order for the ideal transfer players.” I did not see that you said that before. But I agree.
You ignore the undeniable fact that Bill Self did not have non-transfer players on the roster in the first place. The cupboard was very bare on that count. That’s Self’s deal. Second, you ignore that Bill Self chose to add the transfers. His call. All fall in the category of Bill Self’s fault, it’s the degree of fault we’re quibbling about. Of course, when things work out, it’s Bill Self that gets the credit, a fact of which most rarely quarrel with, since he’s the boss.
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No doubt we’re thin because we failed in the recruiting front with Big’s. We targeted a lot of guys we probably had no chance in landing. There might have been a few we should have landed (ala Ayton) along the way.
Whatever the case may be we might not have the offense we have currently if we didn’t miss on post players and adapt our team to a perimeter attack. Winning cures everything and so far winning is all we know.
Next year we shouldn’t have that issue. Heck we might get rid of the issue coming up if things fall our way
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Well, even if he eventually gets cleared, I am mighty disgruntled regarding B. Preston, his placing the program under the microscope of those who investigate or bray, IMPROPRIETY. Leaves us to wonder if the coaching staff actually took another gamble on a BIG with baggage. Or maybe the Preston clan was just careless with the rules? A sad first semester scenario, whatever. In an ideal world, Doke stays for another season; Preston departs as an NBA gamble. Even if he roars onto the court as a springtime savior in key survival contests, I am not likely to work up enthusiasm for Billy the Jayhawk. No, I really don’t KNOW HIM.
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I don’t believe the transfer were his first choice but what was available at the time. As good a program as KU is, it is hard to compete with the programs on the Coasts, particularly the East Coast that gets all the hype or the West Coast with the California glamour. In comparison, small Mid West towns are pretty boring and not really attractive to the urban prospects; by and large Coach Self has really done well . If recruiting to KU with its history and tradition and proximity to KC is hard, imagine what it must be like to recruit to Manhattan, Kansas. Just sayin’…
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@HighEliteMajor So, has he failed? If he had a few Jamaris on the bench, maybe he doesn’t go 4 out. Maybe the Preston suspension is a blessing in disguise because it forces Doke not to hack away. It also forces us to play faster, pass the ball around, and find the open man instead of the point guard making an entry pass into the post while the rest of the team stands around like we saw for years. Nothing screams “exciting ball” like feeding Landen, and watching him flop around trying to score. Not for me, man. Whip that ball to all 4 corners, and one of our guns is gonna get open.
You label the transfers as a "failure"without realizing the chief problem we have this year is our chief strength next year. The difference is this year we have the incredible DG, Vick, and Svi to go along with a 7 foot man beast that is itching to eat the rim. We are oozing with experience this year. Next year, we’ll have practically no experience except for the transfers. We will need them badly next year. When Preston gets activated, our depth increases. If DeSousa or Sosinki can come in and help, then we can at least field a competent stable of bigs. We don’t have to have the best bigs to win playing 4 out. Start DG/Newman or Cunliffe, Vick, Svi, and start with Doke, then Billy, then whoever’s left. This team is really special in my mind due to the fact they have the lack of depth, and they know they have to overcome it.
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@KUSTEVE the D is also better than last year. We are sitting at third in defense field goal %.
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@KUSTEVE I think by Traylor’s senior season, Self figured out exactly what you’ve mentioned — play a system to fit your talent. But then again, those were our discussion points right here, before Self did what you are praising.
I have confidence now that if we had Traylor as another big right now, Self would play just as he is now, to his perimeter strength.
And there is no dressing it up – Self failed bigtime when it came to our post depth. No one’s perfect.
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@HighEliteMajor After 7 games, you’re right. After 14 games, I think you’ll be wrong.
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@HighEliteMajor As you say, ultimately everything falls on the coach. But…who could have predicted that Whitman would leave and Billy would have eligibility issues? Should we have one more big guy on the bench? Yes, one more reserve big guy would have been nice. The fact that the Lawsons are sitting there ready for next year probably didn’t help. It would be good to know what happened with Whitman. But to your point…recruiting a Whitman, who ultimately didn’t stay for whatever reason…yes that is on Self.
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Did someone mention Jamari?? I’m liking this post more and more
Wish we had him now…
I suppose the one of lessons learned with transfers is that the hope of perceived playing time is the biggest reason they went to the trouble of transferring balanced with going to a better program to get better coaching and better competition. But the three guys mentioned surely knew they were off the bench- level guys at an elite program like Kansas? What the hell were they expecting? I doubt they were misled as to playing time. this is Kansas baby. You earn it on a guaranteed top 20 team. Well, right now at least one of them would be on the court a lot right now for the number 2 team in the country because of the Preston situation
Honestly I love the fact that Self is actively exploiting the current wealth of transfers out there… smart move since we don’t seem to be able to coax enough top 25 bigs to come here. Recruiting is tough unless you are Kensucky or Dook or NC
Hunter M is I suppose a classic example of a transfer taking a gamble (trying to earn playing time on a super competitive high profile team) … sadly he rode the pine pretty much. And would his pro career been different had he gone somewhere else and played more?? (I believe he’s playing in Poland now)… I doubt it. He learned a Lot here about how to become a better player, and for the rest of his life he can say he played with the Kansas men’s basketball team in Allen Fieldhouse.
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@Hawk8086 My criticism assumes Preston in the fold. You ask, who could have predicted that Whitman would leave? The only person paid to make the prediction is Bill Self. It’s similar to the fact that we like to give him credit for our team making shots, but we don’t want to criticize when our team doesn’t make shots (I find that always entertaining, because the logic, or lack of it, then diminishes his actual coaching impact; for if all that is necessary is to make shots, then why have a coach?). If you look at our rosters in the past, three post players is way, way low (Doke, Preston, Lightfoot). Self managed the roster in a way where three scholarships are taken up by transfers sitting on the bench (Lawsons + Moore). Again, that’s his call. It is not unreasonable to assume that a player might get hurt (which is akin to the Preston situation now). Self gambled on transfers and lost. That’s all. It seems pretty easy to accept that he shoulders the blame for our roster predicament … given, of course, that’s he’s in charge of the roster.
All of that without one ounce of criticism regarding the Preston garbage.
Back to your question of who could have assumed that Whitman would leave? I could have. So could most of us here. I would assume that every player, regardless of any promises or commitments, could and might leave. If found it a bit comical when so many, with such certainty, said that Newman would not turn pro after a redshirt season because of a promise to Bill Self. They didn’t know. They were believing someone’s word. The fact that Newman did not turn pro does not make the consideration that someone might not keep their word incorrect. Particularly from someone, his dad, who days before he transferred said he was staying. And a reputation as a “me first” player. In fact, it would be flat stupid not to consider that Newman might not have kept his word.
In any business, you have to anticipate and play out the options before they happen. That’s Bill Self’s job when it comes to roster management. One comment was that it only made sense that Coleby would leave, given the way playing time was shaping up. Ok, then, that is not obvious to the boss?
Again, Self gambled and the roster juggling didn’t work out as he wanted.
With transfers, players who have already shown that they will leave a school, I think the concern about them leaving is significantly heightened vs. other recruited players. And he whiffed on the three transfers. That’s part of the game. You make incorrect judgments (or judgments that are on their face, correct, but prove out to be incorrect) here and there, in every business.
We should remember, as well, that an important Bill Self recruit left the program (Carlton Bragg). Who makes that judgment call on signing him, and assessing him for the program? The point is just that the buck stops somewhere, right? Just like it does with wins and successes.
We (all of us) love to exonerate Bill Self on failures, but hypocritically praise him for every success. Truth is, he bears the criticism for program failures and deserves all the credit for successes. He’s the boss.
The truth is, as well, that his failures are far, far outweighed by the the successes and the extremely impressive way he handles the program. An ounce of criticism here and there should not offend. And @Hawk8086, I know you’re not offended, you just opened the door.
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Whitman left us with little chance of replacing him especially when you don’t even make it out of the summer before leaving. Timing was key with him. Of course, taking Whitman in the first place was a gamble. Why did we have to gamble on a 5th year transfer to be a rotation piece. Why couldn’t we have found someone earlier? We could have pushed for another fall commitment but we didn’t. We left ourselves scrambling for spring scraps. We had a reputation for recruiting slow in the fall. 2018 class is a change from that. 2019 could be as well if reports are true about the staff changing things up.
Why did Coleby up and leave?
Why was Maxwell even on the team and then all of a sudden vanished? His exile opened up the door for Sam Cunliffe who’s still a major TBD… At least he gives us a 6th guard to use in our 4-1.
I hope the revolving door of taking in transfer post players is over. We should be able to recruit starters and rotation/development pieces at KU in the post. The Lawsons we hope work out. They bring a ton of experience and talent but we’ve seen them making headlines before playing a game. Suspensions, drama back home, maturity issues exist with them. So the door is open that they become just like Whitman, Coleby, Maxwell instead of a Tarik Black. We’ll certainly see.
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It all comes down to two injuries, Doke’s wrist and Coleby’s knee. The first left him a year behind in game experience and in learning post movement, the latter left Coleby more than a year behind and unable to perform in his one year here at the level of which he was capable.
Those factors led staff to scramble for stopgap players to supplement 5-star Billy coming in. The stopgaps got discouraged by ML’s improvement and potential as a 4-year player so they left, as did Coleby, when they saw that they were going to be sharing too little time in their final years.
So, it is obvious that Bill Self is to blame for the injuries in addition to not being able to read everybody’s minds.
I still blame the Chiefs’ coaching staff for Derrick Thomas’s car crash and later death in the hospital, due ultimately to not wearing his seatbelt in snow and ice. They should have known he was a risk-taker.
Same with Yordano and the Royals.
All coaching staffs are always to blame for anything that goes wrong, no matter how surprising to the world at large. And anyone who thinks otherwise is an excuse-making idiot who doesn’t understand coaches are paid to take the blame.
Heee! Heeee! Heee!
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I love that Bill Self is being blamed for tuning out a roster devoid of post talent and yet his team is playing the best basketball in the nation, undefeated, and ranked #2.
The warts will show, but Bill is doing a masterful job once again.
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@dylans This is fun! Fire Bill Self–Hire The Psychic Network for recruiting instead!
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Kind of makes me wonder…
Are small players smarter than big players?
I know… it is a generalization.
But it seems we’ve had so much more problems with bigs than smalls.
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drgnslayr said:
Kind of makes me wonder…
Are small players smarter than big players?
I know… it is a generalization.
But it seems we’ve had so much more problems with bigs than smalls.
Lol. Maybe they can blend in a little easier.
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@RockkChalkk no!
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@drgnslayr This is the more fun version of that list. Since I’ve been watching KU play:
First it’s Ostertag taking on a water slide… The slide won taking two of the big 00’s teeth.
Then Pollard shows up with his painted fingernails and mutton chops. What a trouble maker! Lol
TJ Pugh. That guy could crack up a classroom with a sly remark. Very disruptive.
Moody…what more do I have to say? Trouble from day one. A walk-on starting?!? Gangster!
Sasha Kauhn I once heard that guy got a b in C++ but it was just a nasty rumor.
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@HighEliteMajor Nope. Not offended in the least. I was forgetting about Bragg completely…sheesh. Sure it is ultimately on Self. I was recognizing that in my last sentence regarding Whitman…his transfer, ultimately, put us in the place we are at more than anything else. Doke, Preston, Whitman, Lightfoot…doable. But no margin for error…for sure.
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We (all of us) love to exonerate Bill Self on failures, but hypocritically praise him for every success.
I’ve been called worse than a hypocrite. I’ll wear your assessment with honor.
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BeddieKU23 said:
Whitman left us with little chance of replacing him especially when you don’t even make it out of the summer before leaving. Timing was key with him. Of course, taking Whitman in the first place was a gamble. Why did we have to gamble on a 5th year transfer to be a rotation piece. Why couldn’t we have found someone earlier? We could have pushed for another fall commitment but we didn’t. We left ourselves scrambling for spring scraps. We had a reputation for recruiting slow in the fall. 2018 class is a change from that. 2019 could be as well if reports are true about the staff changing things up.
Why did Coleby up and leave?
Why was Maxwell even on the team and then all of a sudden vanished? His exile opened up the door for Sam Cunliffe who’s still a major TBD… At least he gives us a 6th guard to use in our 4-1.
I hope the revolving door of taking in transfer post players is over. We should be able to recruit starters and rotation/development pieces at KU in the post. The Lawsons we hope work out. They bring a ton of experience and talent but we’ve seen them making headlines before playing a game. Suspensions, drama back home, maturity issues exist with them. So the door is open that they become just like Whitman, Coleby, Maxwell instead of a Tarik Black. We’ll certainly see.
Maxwell and Whitman even being taken were great mysteries. It makes a little more sense with Whitman because at that point Self just wanted a warm body. Then the reports were Whitman was behind Mitch. Yeesh, no wonder he left.
Getting a second post commitment last fall was probably close to impossible. Of course now it appears that there is a clear path to playing time. Last fall however KU had 6 yes 6 post players possibly (likely even) on the team for this year. Maxwell, Lightfoot, Coleby, Bragg, Doke and Billy. That’s crowded even if recruits were assuming Bragg would go. The other 5 were locked in for all intents and purposes.
I’d say we should be looking at some post stability going forward but with the way things have gone the last few years, that would just feel like a hard jinx at this point.
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I forgot what they looked like, moustache?
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You seem to forget that Whitman and Maxwell were non-controversial and highly coveted transfers at that time and also, they were not brought in to be starters but only as a stop gag measure; most graduate transfers are . I am sure they were aware of this and hard to blame Coach Self for them or Coleby leaving. I seem to remember a considerably more controversial transfer that worked out pretty well, Tarik Black, who many thought should not have been offered a place at KU in the first place. It is the nature of the beast.
You also indicate that Coach Self wasted scholarships on transfer that are sitting this season that could have been used on other players. Keep in mind that that KU DOES HAVE a scholarship available and the Lawsons and Moore did not take scholarships that would be needed this season; there are only so many quality players available and none that would come to KU.
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A few things. I agree the situations with Maxwell and Whitman were bizarre. Maxwell ended up in some banjo bible club and Whitman has apparently fallen off into Witness protection. It’s always interesting to see where guys land after they leave KU. It looks bad when you look back on it.
The Bragg situation definitely is a black hole in this whole thing. We’ve seen a lot of snowball effect since. From Ayton going to Zona, to getting Billy to Maxwell leaving, to Bragg being forced out, to Coleby leaving, to Whitman joining and leaving and now Preston’s current situation. That’s a lot of bodies in and out from one position group in a single year.
2018 and beyond feels like it will be an over-correction to the issue at hand. It helps when you can present recruits playing time especially in today’s recruiting. Will we run into similar issues going forward if we don’t have immediate PT to offer these big guys? Will we be more selective of who we actually go after? I think its been a bit sloppy to target what we have recently. Maybe going forward the staff is more selective in who they target and potentially get.
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@JayHawkFanToo they were highly coveted?
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Highly coveted by who? That’s revisionist history at its finest.
Also Evan was not a grad transfer.
Tarik was a top 60 player coming out of HS, so the talent was there. Maxwell and Whitman were simply bad takes.
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BeddieKU23 said:
A few things. I agree the situations with Maxwell and Whitman were bizarre. Maxwell ended up in some banjo bible club and Whitman has apparently fallen off into Witness protection. It’s always interesting to see where guys land after they leave KU. It looks bad when you look back on it.
The Bragg situation definitely is a black hole in this whole thing. We’ve seen a lot of snowball effect since. From Ayton going to Zona, to getting Billy to Maxwell leaving, to Bragg being forced out, to Coleby leaving, to Whitman joining and leaving and now Preston’s current situation. That’s a lot of bodies in and out from one position group in a single year.
2018 and beyond feels like it will be an over-correction to the issue at hand. It helps when you can present recruits playing time especially in today’s recruiting. Will we run into similar issues going forward if we don’t have immediate PT to offer these big guys? Will we be more selective of who we actually go after? I think its been a bit sloppy to target what we have recently. Maybe going forward the staff is more selective in who they target and potentially get.
Generally when players transfer from KU under they don’t have a ton of success. AWIII and Milton Doyle are the exceptions. Frankamp has been decent but nothing special at WSU.
Bragg was a tough one. No negative stuff on him coming out of HS and he really looked like a good fit. Bad combination of his own personal vices and Self ruining him a bit. Yes I’m putting some blame on Self here. I know some won’t want to hear it but it’s true. Self figured it out with Perry eventually, so it’s disappointing that he tried to play Bragg out of position.
So I don’t think Bragg was a poor target/take, it just didn’t work out.
I’ve thought for awhile the staff needs to trust their own evaluations and not just chase recruiting service rankings. I think we are heading in the right direction based on recent results but the sample size is small.
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Several major programs with available scholarships in need of bigs were after them. Not all that uncommon since at that stage of the recruiting process when all the traditional prospects are taken you either pick up a player that might contribute some without having to sit and will be gone after one year or let the scholarship go to waste. Transfers are very popular now and graduate transfers able to play immediately are at the top of the list. Ten years ago there were 200 transfers and now is well over 700, that is 2 for every team or 15% of all players in Division I.
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@JayHawkFanToo Link/source please. I know UNC was briefly interested in Whitman then said no. That’s about it.
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GIYF.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
GIYF.
I posit that you are lying. No one else went after Maxwell. Not sure he had another place he could have actually landed at. Many people thought it was baffling at the time and he wasn’t a KU level player.
I know some fluff piece from a KU slanted source mentioned Arizona, but no way could he have ended up there.
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Either way KU was supremely desperate and/or mis-evaluated both. Neither is a good look. Mis-evaluation would be worse however…
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Newman, Moore and the Lawsons are examples of the other end of the spectrum where we know other schools wanted them because people from other schools actually said as much. Illinois definitely wanted Moore, for example.
I’ll be done with this now, I got a bit prickly.
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BShark said:
JayHawkFanToo said:
GIYF.
I posit that you are lying. No one else went after Maxwell. Not sure he had another place he could have actually landed at. Many people thought it was baffling at the time and he wasn’t a KU level player.
I know some fluff piece from a KU slanted source mentioned Arizona, but no way could he have ended up there.
Calling another poster a liar is way out of bounds.
Here is a link to the transfer that lists Virginia Tech, Baylor, Arizona and Cincinnati as pursuing him. Apology?
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@JayHawkFanToo I admit I handled that poorly because I was told to google it when I already had looked into it at the time, because I was baffled by the take. So I’m sorry for calling you a liar, though I do think you are incorrect that he was highly coveted. I suppose I’m back into this now so…
I already mentioned that article. Pursued by is loose and vague. Didn’t see anything from an Arizona source saying they were interested (and yes I looked). It looks good for KU to “beat” Arizona. I think the other actual players involved were the likes of Baylor and La Salle, maybe Cincinatti. La Salle definitely wanted him though that isn’t cited in the article because well that doesn’t look as good, recruiting against La Salle.
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Here is from the horse’s mouth mentioning the visits he made and the ones he cancelled after selecting KU.
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@BShark Where did the Hutch Juco kid, Juiston, fit in the recruiting scenario? Was it because he did not see much playing time next year? Sure would like to have him right now. Kid can ball!!
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@Big-Clyde52 it looks like the Lawsons made him reconsider.
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@Big-Clyde52 I wanted him! Watched the unlv az game.
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You called it from the beginning.
He would have been huge this year.
