Crootin Thread III, Wherein Some Players Probably Commit to KU
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Crimsonorblue22 said:
@BShark I don’t feel good about this, change my mind!
He’s not a starter. Only here for one year in a spot where KU doesn’t have much post depth. Seems like a fine situation for both.
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Welp so much for Tilmon. - - dam - -starts looking like we just finding a body. – -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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This doesn’t eliminate Tilmon. Tilmon has the same proposition, he’d likely be the third big in KU’s rotation.
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I’m surprised by this as I thought he had visits to UNC, Clemson & George Washington lined up…
If Coleby is in fact leaving and I think the staff thinks Svi is gone as well that would leave us potentially 1 more spot open…
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BeddieKU23 said:
I’m surprised by this as I thought he had visits to UNC, Clemson & George Washington lined up…
If Coleby is in fact leaving and I think the staff thinks Svi is gone as well that would leave us potentially 1 more spot open…
He already visited UNC I think. And yeah some solid names involved.
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@jayballer54 I wouldn’t say that quite yet. Still pieces to fall. This, to me, looks like a pickup for a 4 and a sign that Svi isn’t coming back.
Gives us 5 guards, 2 PFs and still only 1 C. We need Tilmon.
As far as scholarships, those will work themselves out. I still think there is a chance that a Lawson could be a self-pay for one season. Or somehow be a “student manager” for the season and still practice and get paid. They did that with Svi and Coleby during the University games exhibitions so that they could practice over the summer with the rest of the team. They literally had to wear different clothes than the team that matched the managers to be in compliance.
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@BShark I think this does us in a far as schlorships. - -Smells to me like he was a last minute thing after finding out Tilmon not coming I don’t know just first impressions not a guy that makes you wet all over yourself with excitement. – ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Some advanced stats on Whitman
Made 91 of 132 shots at the rim good for 68.9%. Landen this season was 94 of 131.
Made 14 of 27 2 point jumpers good for roughly 52%. Landen was 19 of 48 on 2 point jumpers.
Terribly FT shooter- 92 of 154.
PER 0f 22, which would have been 3rd best on last years squad. His Offensive rating would have been 2nd on the team this past year.
We’ll see, looks like solid depth for either spot.
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Whitman is Lightfoot insurance, in case he isn’t ready yet. It’s Preston insurance in case he isn’t ready yet.
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@Kcmatt7 Wish I could think as positive, I just don’t see any thing good out of this - -my thought is Tilmon informed them he was not coming, just a last minute thing for a body to back up Udoka maybe wrong but for sure not getting /doing flips. From the LJW he said that he had given some thought about possibly visiting UNC but didn’t looks like, hope he is more then what I think. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Whitman had 13 and 4 against Duke in 16 minutes
3 and 6 against Louisville in 19 minutes
8 and 4 against Rhode Island in 24 minutes
Had 21 against UNC Wilmington, highest of the season.
Efficient scorer, can’t go wrong.
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@jayballer54 http://northcarolina.247sports.com/Board/141/Contents/Jack-Whitman-Visit-Canceled-52503761link text
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Looks like KU is officially transfer U
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@jayballer54 There are a lot of work-arounds to scholarships in our current situation, I believe.
One of the Lawson’s could literally take just one “class” that happens to be at the weight room with Hudy. And then be a “volunteer” practice player. The women’s team brings in male practice players from the student population. We could do the same thing. Easily. I expect us to have 14 scholarship players on 13 scholarships this year one way or another.
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KUSTEVE said:
Whitman is Lightfoot insurance, in case he isn’t ready yet. It’s Preston insurance in case he isn’t ready yet.
Lightfoot isn’t ready, that we know.
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jayballer54 said:
@Kcmatt7 Wish I could think as positive, I just don’t see any thing good out of this - -my thought is Tilmon informed them he was not coming, just a last minute thing for a body to back up Udoka maybe wrong but for sure not getting /doing flips. From the LJW he said that he had given some thought about possibly visiting UNC but didn’t looks like, hope he is more then what I think. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
Enh, he could give 10-15 minutes a game and doesn’t impact future targets.
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and might put up efficient scoring #'s in those minutes. This is potentially a nice move
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Kcmatt7 said:
@jayballer54 There are a lot of work-arounds to scholarships in our current situation, I believe.
One of the Lawson’s could literally take just one “class” that happens to be at the weight room with Hudy. And then be a “volunteer” practice player. The women’s team brings in male practice players from the student population. We could do the same thing. Easily. I expect us to have 14 scholarship players on 13 scholarships this year one way or another.
Yep. Room can be made. Bill is creative.
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No, keep the information coming by all means.
It is just strange considering how positive Coach Self has been about Mitch in the not too distant past. Like I said, it sounded more like comments we would see in the more contentious boards or something @elpoyo would post. We will find out in about 3 months.
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@BShark I was reading UNC’s thread about Whitman on one of their fan sites, and the best was a person that said that he has to play well to overcome the “porn 'stache”. …lol.
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@BeddieKU23 So guess I have this question. With so many misses in high school recruits this year and so many and then relying on so many transfers this year do you consider this year in recruiting a good year - -a so , so year or a down year?
The Lawson’s is solid , This guy I feel not so much , Cunliffe , might be fine , Charlie Moore I’m taking a wait and see with him. I know probably just me BUT I just feel that this has been a little frustrating on the recruitment trail this year - MAN I hope I’m wrong. so what do you think? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Kcmatt7 Those “per 40” lines are dangerous extrapolations, or so I’ve been told/scolded. But sometimes depth – even D-II or D-III depth – like Justin Wesley, is the difference between a Final Four and something less.
Here’s his Game Log from last season. Scored 13 vs. Duke. Wesley wasn’t doing that.
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@Kcmatt7 Well I’m sure not challenging you on what you say as I will more then willing admit there is so much that goes on in these scenario’s I’ll take your word, I’m in no way in a position to try to talk differently. Thanks for the help bud , I guess I’m just a little frustrated with this whole year in recruiting, - -just seems like we have missed SO MANY and again seems like we are in a scramble mode and then with this kid like at the surface TO ME it’s just a body to warm a seat - -that’s not the right approach I know and I swear I hope he pans out. Thanks for the info buddy. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark Well my friend THAT for sure you are 100% correct on with him being a grad transfer so I reckon that’s a good thing, I just hope so badly I’m 100% wrong on the guy, I have no real information, maybe he can back Doke in case of foul trouble give us some minutes.
I think believe it or not Udoka plays a huge part for us in this coming season, hopefully he can play without getting into instant foul trouble going to be key. Now I still have to say I really don’t think some are giving Mitch the credit he deserves. Sure he will never be a jock basketball stud, BUT I don’t think he is as bad as some are trying to make him out either. - -If you give him this year to continue to work with Hudy then I beli3eve he can give us two solid quality years in a back up capacity . Mainly because from what I saw other then major under developed body for major D-1 basketball I saw a lot of scrappiness in the limited time he DID play, big hustle guy full of energy did a lot of things that goes in noticed in the box score, Bottom line I just hope we can put this together for another solid year. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 Those “per 40” lines are dangerous extrapolations, or so I’ve been told/scolded. But sometimes depth – even D-II or D-III depth – like Justin Wesley, is the difference between a Final Four and something less.
Here’s his Game Log from last season. Scored 13 vs. Duke. Wesley wasn’t doing that.
Yeah depth is good, it’s better than the alternative. Honestly, I’m just not going to fuss that much about the end of the bench. There are a lot of KU fans losing it over this addition, and I just don’t get it.
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@HighEliteMajor I only used the Per 40 because it is easier to compare players than just saying he was a 10 and 6 player.
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Well off another site poster said and might make some sense if it turned out to be the case. Poster said with him being from William & Mary he says bet his has the grades for an Academic Scholarship. That could be an option possibly and still have a scholarship available. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark I saw the Shiver was having a hissy fit. I’d be worried if he wasn’t efficient. But to me, a guy with some skill around the basket who blocks a shot or two a game is nothing to snub.
@jayballer54 We might not be landing flashy pieces, but we have a sneaky good roster. Starting, we will have 3 McDAA. The other two guys were popping up on draft boards last year. Off the bench, we have two top 100 - 6’5 guards and now a post player that averaged 10 and 6 in 22 minutes.
Also, just to add more information, he played in the Colonial Conference. Sagarin ranked that as the 13th best conference out of 34. And William & Mary was the 4th best team. William & Mary had the 108 toughest schedule out of 351 teams. . So he didn’t play amazing competition, but he could have definitely played worse.
In the 10 games that Whitman played vs. RPI top 100 opponents:
I think that is about what we should probably expect out of the guy most nights.
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Phog is having a nice meltdown too. One guy in particular was just on a roll with dumb troll comments. It’s not like this kid is going to start, I could see worrying if that were the case.
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I like his post moves. Left handed hook shots. Head fakes. Looks like a high bb IQ. And he’s willing to ride the bench. What’s not to like? It’s not like we can offer any recruit that much playing time ( except Duvall ).
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@KUSTEVE He’s a little springy isn’t he? Appears to me the only reason he couldn’t score 15-20 ppg for W&M was because he has foul issues.
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@Kcmatt7 He plays hard, and is quite scrappy. I think we got a pretty good one.
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http://www.d1circuit.com/news_article/show/787849
Could be that Demarius plays himself into a KU offer so that he can play with his brother in college.
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Well after further review lol. Maybe not quite as bad as my first really bad thought process. Seems pretty fluid, seems like he wants to take the ball to the hole with authority - -ALOT gotta like that - has some bounce, some nice inside moves - maybe not ALL against A-1 talent but still think he will give us some quality play possibly. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark I can already tell I like that family. I hope that is the case. I expect him to shoot up the boards soon. And, I like when we can have those telepathic connections.
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I think he is a fine addition for what KU will ask him to contribute.
The big knock on him was his shooting ability, and reportedly he has improved it a fair bit. That isn’t close to the only big time risers/improvers/stock increasers article that mentioned him. It wouldn’t surprise me if one reason he took the prep year was to hope for a KU offer. Also spaces him just one class apart from his brother. He has the toughness and grit Self wants, based on everything I’ve read.
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jayballer54 said:
@BeddieKU23 So guess I have this question. With so many misses in high school recruits this year and so many and then relying on so many transfers this year do you consider this year in recruiting a good year - -a so , so year or a down year?
The Lawson’s is solid , This guy I feel not so much , Cunliffe , might be fine , Charlie Moore I’m taking a wait and see with him. I know probably just me BUT I just feel that this has been a little frustrating on the recruitment trail this year - MAN I hope I’m wrong. so what do you think? - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
I’m not sure its a down year, actually we are probably in uncharted territory here with how many transfers we are taking.
Landing Newman last year seemed to have scared off other guards we were so desperately going after. Probably the only one that would have been as good as Malik this season would have been Sexton. So in the end losing out on all guard targets except Garrett sucks but we still have really good options. Newman is likely to be a 1st team All Big-12 player, can’t complain if he performs.
Speaking of Garrett, he makes the class good in my opinion. I hope my confidence in his game pays off. Exciting kid, exactly the type Self loves.
The Ayton miss and the non-existent other options in the post besides Preston is the most puzzling aspect of this years recruiting class. Preston is such a wildcard. He thinks he’s a OAD, he will be a OAD regardless of his season. I just hope he’s eligible otherwise the Whitman signing was more then just “depth”. If Preston can be coached Self will have fun with him.
Cunliffe, solid addition if he matures. He better get on board with the rest of the team and fit in. Messy situation leaving ASU, usually where there is smoke of a kid being detrimental to a team usually that isn’t the type Self goes after. I’m hoping he was just immature and needed a better situation. Bouncy, can shoot and create his own. Rebounds, some potential defensively. Lots to like.
The 3 sit-outs will be very good here although the Moore signing left us IMO 1 scholarship short for this year that we could have used to create a 6 perimeter, 5 post situation, great depth, covers injuries, etc. But Self is gambling on Moore paying off in the future so we must get on board I guess.
Lawson, definite favorite for Big-12 POY and All American when he’s eligible. Seems like the other Lawson still has some potential to max out. Home run signings IMO.
So while its always great to get the best High School kids out there it seems Self has really changed his mind on finding the best talent out there regardless of what it is. Former Top HS kids, Newman- Top 10, Cunliffe- Top 40, Lawson- Top 30, Lawson- Top 60, Moore- Top 75 now find themselves on KU’s roster. Will be interesting to see how they all mesh.
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@Kcmatt7 I like per 40 analysis … posted a lot of that stuff over the years. It was particularly insightful with Diallo and Alexander. Others reacted quite negatively to the comparisons.
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Whitman looks better than Coleby. Obviously more athletic. All based solely on the video and the numbers/stats. Is he really better than Coleby?
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All the video’s I’ve seen point to a player with some really nice footwork, can catch the ball, survey what is happening around him, and make quick fluid moves to the basket. Unless Preston comes ready to play this seems more then just a depth move.
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@BeddieKU23 Kevin Young 2.0?
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@HighEliteMajor Agreed. I’m pretty sure I did a ton of analysis two years ago trying to see if there was a way stats could prove LL was our most effective post player. Couldn’t find anything to support it, and actually saw that Diallo was more effective per minute than LL. Significantly more effective…
I wish we had played Diallo more. But I think I’m in the minority with that.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@BeddieKU23 Kevin Young 2.0?
Maybe, I’m not sure he’s the comparison that best fits Whitman. He looks like he can take contact and finish which is a nice thing to see from someone who finishes most of his baskets at the rim. I just like how he knows what he is supposed to do, no hesitation, he understands angles and pivoting to get his man going another way. Very optimistic he can fit in the rotation
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HighEliteMajor said:
@Kcmatt7 I like per 40 analysis … posted a lot of that stuff over the years. It was particularly insightful with Diallo and Alexander. Others reacted quite negatively to the comparisons.
I remember the discussions. I think the biggest problem is if the 40/per stats are based on sample sizes under, say, 10-13 min per game. A guy can come in and really skew his numbers by being able to average 4 pts and 2 rebs in an average 6 minutes for 4 or 5 games, but might get no more than that every time he got extended minutes. I.e., can score in spurts but no distance on his motor.
The value to the stat is still there, but I think it is limited to comparing people whose actual game minutes are similar.
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@BeddieKU23 I only bring that one up because they have similar stat lines at that lower level and both seem to be fairly coordinated guys with high BBIQ.
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@Kcmatt7 The discussion of Whitman should prob go to the other thread.
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The other big key about grad transfers is they are such low risk. It’s like a one year contract in baseball.
Agree on the guards, Sexton would have been an electric signing. Young would have made KU boards happy, but he was never a great fit. Not saying I didn’t want him, because he would have been a fine add, but he reminded me of Frankamp.
I’m not big on Cunliffe. I think the staff has a lot of work to do there.
Garrett looks like a great multi-year addition to me. If he does blow up and show he can play PG, it might only be 2 years though.
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HighEliteMajor said:
Whitman looks better than Coleby. Obviously more athletic. All based solely on the video and the numbers/stats. Is he really better than Coleby?
Probably, but we won’t know for sure until we see him in a KU uniform. I’m not convinced Coleby’s knee could hold out for 20 minutes a game. Coleby was like that kid on the little league team who when he actually did anything positive, everyone was extremely happy for him. Coleby’s one, actually good game was the Texas game. He was just kind of…there in the Georgia, UK and Purdue games. So yeah, I would hope this kid is better. At the very least, he has two healthy knees.
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Kcmatt7 said:
@HighEliteMajor Agreed. I’m pretty sure I did a ton of analysis two years ago trying to see if there was a way stats could prove LL was our most effective post player. Couldn’t find anything to support it, and actually saw that Diallo was more effective per minute than LL. Significantly more effective…
I wish we had played Diallo more. But I think I’m in the minority with that.
Argh Diallo talk again, this is still bothersome for me so I’ll keep it short.
I think Diallo should have played more. Definitely instead of Jamari. Sure he was rather lost on the court most of the time, but he had the ability to make up for it. With more playing time, the hope would have been he would figure some things out. Some players just need the actual game time instead of practice, maybe this was the case with Diallo, but sadly we will never know. I think the biggest issue was his offense. He was easily determined as a net positive on D despite his lapses. His offense was worrisome, probably a net negative and I think he felt he had to shoot more often than he should have.
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I agree. Statistically speaking, the per 40 is similar to the models used by KenPom and Sagarin that get better as the sample size increases but are wildly unpredictable with small samples. The per 40 stat is better suited when players average at least 20 minutes. Players that average less than 10 minutes are in the game for situations that call for their specific strength or at the end of games, neither a typical game environment.
In Alexander and Diallo’s cases, the per 40 stat really is misleading because based on their on game stats they would never play 40 minutes…unless the NCAA allows 12-15 fouls before fouling out.
