Crootin Thread III, Wherein Some Players Probably Commit to KU
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As a side note
Wichita State University today announced a new partnership with Under Armour. The Baltimore-based global leader in performance footwear, apparel and equipment will become the official outfitter of Wichita State University beginning July 1, 2017.
As part of the eight-year agreement, Under Armour will provide on-field and training gear for 15 varsity sports. Additionally, Under Armour will outfit members of the athletic department including coaches and staff.
The agreement between the university and brand will include baseball, women’s basketball and golf in 2017-18, men’s basketball and cross country/track in 2018-19 men’s and women’s tennis in 2019-20 and volleyball and softball in 2020-21.
Wichita State University joins the growing Under Armour roster of NCAA partners that includes UCLA, University of California, Berkeley, University of Wisconsin, Notre Dame, Naval Academy, University of Maryland, Texas Tech University, Northwestern University, University of Cincinnati, Boston College, University of Utah, University of South Carolina and Auburn University.
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@JayHawkFanToo @HighEliteMajor Of the top 50 recruits in classes 2013-2017. (From who I believe their sponsors are. I could have missed 1 or 2 in each class).
- 2013: Nike - 72%, Adidas - 26%, Under Armour - 2%
- 2014: Nike - 76%, Adidas - 18%, Under Armour - 2%, None 4%
- 2015: Nike - 72%, Adidas - 24%, Under Armour - 4%, None 2%
- 2016: Nike - 70%, Adidas - 22%, Under Armour - 6%, None 2%
- 2017: Nike - 60%, Adidas - 18%, Under Armour - 4%, None 18% (Many of these are expected Nike signees).
Embargo is probably a strong term. But, I think KU lands more higher rated recruits if they are a Nike program. All it takes is some behind the scenes action.
Think of how important the AAU circuit is. You can almost predict whether a recruit signs Nike or Adidas based on his AAU team affiliation. They give these players so much. Shoes, Basketballs, jerseys, travel, etc. How these count as permissible benefits I will never understand. These kids do get paid. And, on top of that, their coaches get paid. And the coaches have a huge influence over these players. How else would it explain KU not landing any local talent playing for MO-Kan Elite? All the other local schools have landed someone from them. OU, MU, and SLU all landed players from that roster. We are getting frozen out of any of the top local talent.
I’ve also posted a long time ago about why KU recruits the highest rated players instead of trying to land 3 guys ranked 25-50 every year. It is because there is more competition for guys ranked 25+. The guys ranked 1-25 go to blue bloods like 75% of the time. So you are only competing against about 5 other schools and it all usually works itself out based on what teams needs are. BUT, 25-50 everyone is after them. Because now you are at a range that doesn’t guarantee PT at a blue blood. But it does at a ton of other schools. So competition is much more fierce 25+. As and Adidas school, you also limit the number of guys that would sign with an Adidas school. So you are looking at maybe 10 players outside of the top 25 that would sign with an Adidas school. And then you have to compete with UCLA, UL, Miami, NC State, and Baylor for those scraps. Bill lands more than his fair share, but KU also spends the most money recruiting in the Nation. It is also why I think Bill has really started to use the transfer market lately. There are more quality players transferring than he can get just from recruiting HS players.
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Ok , read some players we are visiting Today, & Tomorrow for 2018. - - So of the guys I am going to list , from everything I’ve read and heard from others - -even others from here , I don’t believe we are leading on ANY of them , and some I don’t think we are even in the park. So how many of these guys do you all think we really feel we have ANY kind of chance at? Just seems to me that possibly we get so zero in on ( EXP ) DeAndre Ayton this past year - -feel we’re in such good shape that several other options get ignored until the ship has sailed on those players.
So read that Coach Self & Coach Townsend are in South Carolina today visiting -Zion Williamson. – Now I would love to have him BUT he is one that I think I’ve heard umm maybe probably not so much
Coach Roberts is going to on Tues, & Wedn , is going to be visiting Jahvon Quinerly - - - Moses Brown , Louis King , & Naz Reed… I think that yes we might be in the running possibly for Moses Brown & MAYBE to a small degree Naz Reid – -maybe BUT other then that I’m not real sure,
Now I’m not sure I can’t positively bring home points -Just possibly a theory , I feel this type of recruiting might be why we are scrambling some this year & you & I both know that can’t deny WE LOST OUT on ALOT of players this year, more then I can remember in recent past - -Again I’m not condemning I love coach but are we limiting ourselves? kicking ourselves right in the butt. I mean seriously I feel unless there is just a dead right glaring difference I think were going to take the first one that commit. - -I mean here is what I’m trying to bring out.
If you are recruiting 2 players Say one is a 4 star & one is a 5 star - -one is rated like # 3 in the Nation - -& the other is like # 10 just for this example is all I think if the 4 star commits 1st then so be it. - I think we are getting into a trend where a lot of these kids are delaying waiting to see who’s leaving - -who is coming back and such so we end up sometimes not offering and WE WAIT - -and then in the end the 5 star commits elsewhere and we have lost out on the 4 star = thusly we end up in scramble mode. So how many of these guys do you think we realistically have a shot at. Let me know - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Adidas has 12 out of 65 P5 schools or slightly over 18%. According to your figures above, Adidas has been getting at least 18% and up to 26% of top 50 recruits or just about its average or slightly over that. Nike has 68% of schools and it has been getting about that. Looks like recruits are going to school pretty much in the same proportion as affiliation.
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Naz Reid has a handler, he’s not leaving the Northeast
Duke has been strong on Zion. South Carolina’s final 4 run probably helps them with him. We’ll see, he’s probably one we have no chance at getting but in order to have a chance you have to chase…
Moses Brown wants Duke but they haven’t been after him like some other programs. Word is they will evaluate him during the first AAU session and decide whether they want him, and I can imagine they will. He improved a bunch this year.
Quinerly probably would have ended up at Washington had Romar stuck around. Figure Arizona will be in play with Romar on staff plus some of the usual east coast schools… He seems an unlikely chase as well
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@JayHawkFanToo I guess I’m missing your point. But I also think we are looking at this two different ways. You see it as everything is proportionate.
I see it as, we are missing out on having a chance with 70% of the top recruits in the nation. You also aren’t factoring in the location of the players. Recruiting to the middle of Kansas is hard enough as it is. Add in the fact that we only have access to 25% of the available players. Of those, who actually fits our scheme? How about our position need any given year. That 25% starts to fall pretty quick.
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But that is not exactly correct either. Just because we are not getting a large percentage of top50 players does not mean we don’t have chance with them but that either we are limited in the number of scholarships or other programs present better opportunities, regardless of brand affiliation. Adidas schools are about 18% of the P5 schools and are getting about 20% of the top 50 players…seems about right to me.
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@BeddieKU23 Ya so in the final analayis like I thought. Our chances are pretty slim to none on ANY of these guys. I understand what your saying aboutyou have to do things to have any kind of a chance. -My thing is DO YOU feel like when such as these cases - -DO YOU feel like we spend TO MUCH time AND EFFORT on these kids instead of the point I was trying to make? -Do you not feel like it is possible that we kind of get blinders on ONE and the main time other possible potent recruits slip away just curious. I by far am not trying to be negative on Coach wouldn’t want anyone else. Just curious seems like there are a lot of guys that have gotten away and I’m wondering if it is because of the way we a zeroing in a certain CERTAIN ONE. - -I dunno - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Yeah my man, the staff is just doing their due diligence. I don’t think any of those players are kids that end up at KU. Like @BeddieKU23 said it never hurts to kick the tires. It’s still quite early for the 18 class of course.
New 2019 name: http://247sports.com/Player/Josh-Green-46037279 From Australia originally.
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@BShark I Understand completely, just me - -a little frustrated -But I know we will be fine in the end run. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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News today that Grayson Allen is returning for his Senior season at Duke. Anybody else but me think that opens the door for KU a little with Duval. With him returning and Frank Jackson their returning 5 star PG as a sophmore. I think Duval might be looking at that situation and say to himself, man Allen is a ball hawk, and Jackson is expecting a bigger role handling the ball. Then you have 5 Star CB guard Gary Trent Jr. coming in as well. He might be saying to himself l… do I wanna share the ball with Graham/Newman or with Allen/Jackson/Trent Jr.??? Gotta think in the back of his mind him being boys and playing with Preston in TX for a bit keeps it interesting down the stretch. Duval is supposedly unofficially visiting Duke today. I’m sure they are going to pull out all the stops to convince him Grayson Allen coming back is good for him and his situation. Conventional wisdom would say otherwise. I guess we’ll wait and see. Also wouldn’t surprise me if he committed after the visit haha.
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@madmaxKU - - I hear ya, BUT I just really don’t believe Gracie returning will effect his recruitment that much. - -Allen is not a true point guard - -never has been. Duval commit would be natural fit - -Allen slide back to his 2 spot and Duval take over the Point. Not sayin it couldn’t happen, he made the statement he could and has played with anybody when talking about KU when they asked him about with Newman being here - -BUT that could also apply to Duke playing with Allen and Jackson & Trent.
Now if you wanted to reach - -think a little wild Could be from Duke’s perspective they not feeling that comfortable about landing him - - Gracie has already talk with the Duke staff and gotten feed back from NBA , - NBA telling him his chances not that great at the present, put that with the Staff at Duke not feeling that comfy with the possibility of landing Trevon pushing Gracie to return for his senior year, play Gracie at the point and Jackson at the 2 - - REALLY think that’s the case - -BUT hey if you wanna twist things around a little there ya go…- - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Well read that Rhode Island might be a player for Shakur now. - -Think they said he is going to visit them, close to home like 3 hours away from home for him, Iowa State people just in a frenzy - -well SOME are anyways, talking saying he must not like Iowa State or else he would of committed by now and such - -makes me giggle lol. - JUMPIN – - GEE- -HOSSA - -FATS the kid is wanting to take his visits. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Rumour/internet scuttlebutt is that Duval was at Duke today making his commitment video. It’s very messy, deleted tweets etc… Duke people are very steadfast that he visited today.
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@BShark I heard he called them, didn’t go.
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Yeah that was out there. Last I read Duke people were still adamant he was there, but I haven’t been checking. Think it’s pretty clear he ends up at Duke. Too much smoke.
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We do tend to spend more time on recruits where the smoke says they are going somewhere else. It can be very frustrating, like the Duval situation. Who knows how much we really have recruited him lately but for a good period they did what they could. Same with Trae Young, Sexton, Ayton, Brown and others. At least we are in the position to recruit them heavily. Sometimes we win out and sometimes we lose, maybe more then some other programs that are in the ballgame for OAD talent.
The only time I really get frustrated by focusing on 1 main target is when there is others that have comparable talent the KU could have recruited and maybe had a better chance of getting. There is plenty of examples of that over the years.
I don’t necessarily think its due to zeroing in on one target and being stubborn about it. If said recruit knows your priority #1 above all usually that would stick with recruits. It may be apart of the vacuum that we see from the outside looking in on why these kids go somewhere else. This is a different era for sure and there are so many factors that go into it (especially behind the scenes).
As for the 2018 kids, the biggest thing to realize with today’s recruiting is that things change daily. Other then Naz Reid, something could change that pushes anyone of them to KU. We just don’t know but at this point I don’t think KU is seriously involved with any of the 4 you listed. They are kicking the tracks, trying to stay involved and rightfully so. This is a down class overall and getting the best talent is really going to be at a premium this cycle.
We know the 2 guys so far that we’ve put a great amount of time into (Grimes, Dotson) and hopefully those two are the benefit of all that recruiting effort being involved with them early. Maybe Brown becomes an option if he waits until spring and Azubuike has a good enough season to leave. Zion, I think we are out of it unless he’s playing SF at the College Level. Dedric Lawson is going to be better than any 2018 recruit we could get at the 4.
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@JayHawkFanToo if only it was that simple… That is about as naive of a way to think about today’s recruiting as it could be. But then again, I don’t expect you to understand. It would require you to open your mind that more is going on than just 20 percent of kids “prefer” Adidas and 70 percent of kids “prefer” Nike. The truth is, we don’t have a shot with close to 70% of eligible recruits. Part of the reason that we have a shot with the top tier recruits is because they know that they will get paid either way. And, there is a ton going on behind the scenes. Adidas and Nike reps get involved and give out unofficial endorsement deals for X amount if they go to an Adidas or Nike school.
Can you explain our inability to sign top tier MOKan Elite players? Or the “coincidence” that any player that gets drafted from KU ends up with an Adidas contract? Or that a player who plays for a Nike AAU team 9/10 times ends up at a Nike school? Or that a kid who plays for an Adidas AAU team is 8/10 times ending up at an Adidas school? Just preference?
If you think it is that simple, I guess we can just agree to disagree.
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@BShark I read off zags blog that he was unofficially visiting them yesterday, probably picking out his dorm room lol. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BeddieKU23 YA, see you pointed out one of the big things that bothers me to, that I used as an example in my post. - -That’s and again it sounds worse when I type it then it really is - Cause don’t get me wrong, I love our coach, But like you said my point exactly this is what gets me - -again an example say we are recruiting 2 guys same position player - - ONE might be a 5 star and like ranked 3-4 in the Nation, then we also recruiting a 4 star ranked say 10th in the Nation - -actually pretty similar in talent maybe little variance so this is when I say or so it seems like we spend so much time on the quote - -in quote 5 star player recruit - -recruit - - recruit and in the end run lose out on him & then main time back at the Ranch the 4 star that had similar talent has stepped on - -that ship has sailed because we didn’t stay on him as much, took his talent somewhere else, then we lose out on Both - -Which puts us in a scramble mode or so it seems, looking at the transfers harder -post grad transfers - -de-commits - -see what I’m saying? THAT’S what frustrates me. - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Kcmatt7 So if there are only a few Adidias schools worth going to and nearly 1/4 recruits are affiliated with Adidias it sounds like a recruiting advantage for KU. If this is true then KU pretty much has it’s choice of 1/4 of the top 100 talent. Why give up such a recruiting edge? If 100% of Nike recruits stay with Nike, why switch to Nike when all the other blue bloods already are Nike? Kansas would just be another Nike school, another face in the crowd.
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I certainly understand the frustration. Recruiting today is just a war and there is never going to be a simple model for KU to follow. Bill used to get good talent that stayed, now he’s lucky to get 1 year, maybe two from the best. He used to get kids he could tell “red-shirt and you’ll be good down the line”. Those days are gone. It shows you how much he’s elevated the program, but also how much the mindset of 99% of kids today has changed. I find it impossible to think he’ll be able to balance out getting OAD types and program players every single year. Just too many variables to juggle. If your a top program you recruit the best and hope you can snag yourself guys that fit your program. Josh Jackson, Joel Embiid, Andrew Wiggins etc those are exactly the type of talents you don’t stop going after because they are the face of your program after they leave. And while they are here you hope those kids can elevate your team to win a championship. I can’t imagine the drop-down in play had those guys never set foot on campus and KU landed a less talented kid. That’s the challenge, knowing when to stay on the cream of the crop and when to target someone you need years to develop. I think Self has done an admiral job so far in a ever evolving landscape of competing for players that want everything now.
I will say this, I like how we are getting highly talented transfers in the past 2 years. Instead of getting talent the staff has to invest 3-4 years to get the most out of (like a red-shirt type player would present) we land Malik Newman, Sam Cunliffe, the Lawson Brothers. These guys aren’t projects, or guys we are hoping can elevate their play with development. These guys are already good, NBA good, if things go right. This is a grand experiment to see whether Self can mold any type of player he gets. Some past transfers have worked out okay.
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@dylans Do you really believe if we switched brands it would erase all of our history that has made us a Blue Blood?
Also, we are still recruiting against Indiana, UCLA, NC State and Louisville for those small number of recruits. Isn’t it more likely that we are able to find more players that fit our system out of 70 players than out of 25? Look at UNC. Are they still a blue blood? Yes. Have they been one of the top 5 recruiting? No. But they pick from who fits their system and keep them for 4 years and have now won 3 championships in 12 years. That is the model everyone wants isn’t it? Solid recruits, that fit to our system, and stay for 4 years. I think that is what Nike would provide us.
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All you had to say is that we agree to disagree and not make it personal.
BTW, Wigging and five-star players Alexander, Kelly Oubre Jr. and Wayne Selden, all AAU Nike players signed with KU; I am not sure who sponsored Jackson’s 1Nation Elite teamt. In the last few year KU has gotten 3 # 1 players, Wiggins Jackson and Newman; does not look like KU is having any problems recruiting and the only issue is scholarship and playing time availability. If Devonte declared for the NBA, chances are we get Duval as well. You also have to consider that the Nike EYBL has been around a lot longer than the Adidas and Under Armor Leagues and thus have more and the more established teams.
As far as MoKan players, it has nothing to do with brand affiliation but with a personality conflict between KU and MoKan personnel, and the rumor in the KC area is that MoKan wanted to have a big influence in the KU program and KU would have none of it. As you know, KU has not recruited any players from MoKan passing on some really good ones.
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Kansas and Illinois have emerged as the two likeliest landing spots for Cal transfer Charlie Moore, per multiple sources.
— Jon Rothstein (@JonRothstein) April 19, 2017
Not a fan of tying up ANOTHER scholarship for a player who can’t play this season
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@JayHawkFanToo We were never favorites for Duval. Not from day 1. If we land him, amazing job Bill. But he has been assumed Duke bound since before Devonte was staying and actually presumed to leave.
As I stated in my previous post, part of the reason that we recruit, and can land such highly rated recruits is going on behind the scenes. Adidas signs almost every single Jayhawk that makes it to the league to an endorsement deal. We are the face of Adidas in college basketball. So some of these top rated players know that if they spend their one year here they have a deal in place.
- Kelly Oubre
- Tyshawn Taylor
- Joel Embiid
- Andrew Wiggins
- Ben McLemore
All of those guys landed Adidas contracts immediately after they declared for the draft. The only one who singed with Nike was Thomas Robinson. I’d say that is no coincidence. In fact, there were rumors of Wiggins shoe deal before the season. http://nesn.com/2013/10/report-andrew-wiggins-has-180-million-shoe-deal-with-adidas-waiting-for-him-when-he-enters-nba/
Let’s just say that probably had an influence on him choosing the 'Hawks over Florida State or Kentucky…
And, we have recruited MoKan Elite when they have had any real talent. Pretty sure we just watched more than a dozen games played by Trae Young. Also recruited Carte’Are Gordon. We offered MPJ. That would be 3 players on that same MOKan roster…
Anyways, this is my last post on the subject.
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@BeddieKU23 10 man rotation was rough last year.
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@BeddieKU23 Only thing, he can shoot. Although he didn’t have much of an Assist to turnover ratio. HAVE to land a guy who can play PG in 2 years though. Just in case.
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I had never even heard of this kid … apparently it’s KU and Illinois.
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It seems like taking transfers is a good way to have a kid on the bench to practice and get better, while they aren’t complaining about playing time. It’s pretty hard to actually fill out a roster of 13 players that are actually good without complaints about playing time and being a transfer risk themselves if they don’t play enough.
As for Charlie Moore, he played on the same AAU team as the Jacobs bros. Could be a factor. Assuming Duval to Duke, I don’t hate it. Presumably it’s between Moore and Allen for the last guard scholarship. The only issue it does present is a very thin back court to start the season provided Svi is gone. Garrett would be forced into 20+ mpg.
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I did see that Illinois seems like the favorite here. But I still don’t understand going after another sit-out transfer unless we have another scholarship opening somewhere or the Lawson’s plan on having daddy pay their way for a year and Self has their scholarships to use instead.
I get that its hard to fill the roster to 13 these days but we need at least 11 available bodies this season. That way we can afford to lose 1 player which seems to be the norm now during the yr.
Moore is good, he was solid at Cal so I’m not questioning his ability. Just trying to wrap my head around this one
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I can definitely see only having 4 eligible guards in the first semester being an issue. It would be nice to have another guard that can play, even if it’s only in spot minutes.
I think another post player is the more pressing need. Not because of the numbers as 4 quality post players would be fine but Doke is still very young, Preston is talented but mercurial and a frosh, Coleby is a foul machine and Mitch could use a RS year.
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Could Texas pull Bamba? I know nothing about the kid, other than that his ego is strong.
"It’s corny, but I really want to have buildings named after me at whatever university I go to and if I can do that in one year it means I had a great year.”
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Yeah we definitely still have needs for 2017 that’s why I’m surprised Charlie Moore is even on the radar without knowing what’s happening with Svi, Tilmon and Allen at this point.
Svi would solve the perimeter issue. With how stacked this draft is I still can’t find a way he gets drafted before mid-2nd round.
Tilmon would give us 5 talented bigs to throw out there. Who knows what’s going to happen with him.
Allen- obvious guard insurance, will he wait out Svi’s decision or will the staff move on him before?
I can’t imagine we go into next year with just 4 bigs. None of our perimeter options are Josh Jackson who can just seamlessly transition to guarding bigger players…
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Yes they can. They definitely have the most available playing time to give him and his relationship with Smart is the best if we believe what’s posted on the internet…
I think he goes to Kentucky given the type of player he is and two of his best friends on the team (Green & Diallo).
He’s definitely keeping everyone guessing. Duke fanatical’s still think he’s going there. Delusional bunch they are
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I don’t think Bolden stays if Bamba were going to Duke.
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Ya know , and I thought this even before but even more since I’ve talked to several friends acquaintences. I just believe and some different things I’ve read , for one that some times these NBA people will advise guys that might be projected in the middle to lower pat of the 2nd round - -they advise them to go play ball over sea’s for a year , then declare for the NBA draft kind of stockpile these guys then draft them. This way the kid STILL makes some money playing for that year & then declares after that year.
I have felt for awhile this is what SVI would do - -I didn’t think about playing over sea’s for the year and then declaring but makes sense -gets paid then declare the following season. - -I’ve just have always thought he would do what he did Declare- -then if he doesn’t hear what he wanted, I have fully thought that he would return back home and play ball - -didn’t see him coming back - - -STILL don’t see him back. - -If I remember right when he came he said at the time he was talking 2 years , as far as the NBA goes personally I don’t believe his stock will rise a lot higher, just think he is done at KU. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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Shayok to ISU
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@BShark who? And what are the implications?
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Marial Shayok. Used to be at UVA. Not sure what went sideways there. Sit one to play one. He will very likely be a starter for them in that year.
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@BShark I agree. To me the post is the large issue. We lose Landen, we lose Bragg and we lose Josh who was not a post player but was our starting 4 essentially all year. The backcourt seems ready to go whether or not Svi returns.
Offensively in the post it is a concern. Basically we return zero scoring down low since Doke was hurt most of the year. Doke is a beast and should get plenty of opportunities with put backs and alley-oops but does not shoot well from the floor or from the FT line. Coleby is offensively challenged but he plays hard. Mitch is in need of at least one more year before he can be counted on and from what I have seen Preston is anything but a traditional post player. One more solid body down low would be fantastic before recruiting is all said and done.
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If KU has not named a building after Chamberlain, there is no way it will name one after Bamba. Has any school named a building after a basketball player? I don’t believe UNC had named one after even Jordan. Kid’s ego needs a reality check.
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There’s nothing wrong with a high school senior dreaming about being so special to a college that a building gets named after him or her. It’s a cool dream really. I wish I wasn’t so grounded in reality that I could dream like that. I don’t ever laugh or ridicule the dreams of young people. I hope their dreams come true.
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@stoptheflop It’d be nice if one could maintain that unbridled optimism while not being completely ignorant to the workings of the world.
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@stoptheflop I like to take a zen approach to it. It is what it is.
There is certainly a positive and negative application for a less restrained ego.
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The one that always got me was Dakari Johnson saying he’d beat Michael Jordan in his prime one on one.
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approxinfinity said:
The one that always got me was Dakari Johnson saying he’d beat Michael Jordan in his prime one on one.
…but more importantly…could he beat LaVar Ball?
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@approxinfinity My first thought was, “yea, maybe ping pong.”
But freaks like Jordan are great at everything. So probably not.
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Baylor snags another 7 footer.
Leonard Allen, Older brother of Jarrett Allen.
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@JayHawkFanToo I realize I’m ruining it by saying this, but I appreciate that your comment got zero response, just like the real Lavar Ball! Ignoring him is the only medicine that will make that clown go away.
