This is getting tiring.
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Graham, Svi and Lucas have decent size for their positions, athleticism is the issue.
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@BShark I’m not gonna argue the athleticism, but that’s not what @BigBad is saying. He’s saying size and length and KU was had an advantage everywhere except for Mason who is a great defender period and can guard bigger than his size.
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@BShark said:
Graham’s lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.
Most here dont want to hear that.
Graham has used the attention Frank gets to get wide open shots and then uses his spastic head fake to clear himself from lower level defenders. Against size and length and equal quickness he struggles.
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Agree but the fact that nobody else could do anything we became one dimensional. Tough to win that way.
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We have been 1 dimensional all year.
Excellent 3
Average perimeter D
Below average interior d
Below average low post scoring
Below average free throw
All of those factored in last night
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@Blown Live by the 3, die by the 3.
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@BigBad The fact that you think I’m anti-Self is hilarious…lol. I am regularly chided by a whole slew of people on here as a “sunshine pumper”. I don’t think we attacked the Oregon defense correctly, which had a direct impact on our 3 point %. We kept trying to drive the lane through the matchup zone, which will not work. Frank had success doing it for awhile, but they took that away. Once our perimeter guys drove past the first defender, they were met by two other Dux. the easy play would be to pass it off to a set shooter on the wing, as JJ finally did to Svi with about 12 minutes to go. But that’s not what we did. Drive after drive into the heart of the defense- or rushing heavily guarded threes from the perimeter. Of course we aren’t going to make 3s when we aren’t open. We had to draw the defense in, and then make the pass to the open wing when their defense collapsed. You aren’t going to convince me we couldn’t have beat this team, so lets leave it at that.
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If at Late Night we were told that: Bragg would have ZERO impact on the season and Azibuke would be lost due to injury what would have been the expectations for this team?
I would bet that EVERYONE would agree that an Elite 8 run would be outstanding.
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This was another (very) disappointing loss, and emotions are raw in the moment, both for the players and the fans. But I don’t why everything has to be black and white - about the season, about Self, and about our tournament performance.
By all measures except one - a big one admittedly - this was a very successful season - 30+ wins, 13th consecutive conference crown - NPOY - Self showing more adaptability with his players than ever before, with entertaining results - a team with more grit and determination perhaps than many other recent Jayhawk teams - beat UK and Duke - epic comeback against WVU. Frank will go down as one of the all time greats at KU. JJ was the best OAD we’ve had - at least in terms of his play at KU. A lot to be grateful for and appreciative of with this team.
But that shouldn’t preclude a thoughtful discussion of the whys and wherefores of falling short again with regard to the goal each and every year at KU (yes we are blessed and cursed by high expectations) - a national championship or at least a Final Four appearance.
The numbers are what they are. Self’s 2-7 record in E8 games is what most folks are pointing the finger at. The one that really gets me is that we’ve had 8 #1 seeds during the Self era and have reached the FF only once during that time ('08). I haven’t gone back and checked this, but I think we have only beaten a higher seed team once during the Self era?
The bottom line is that we’ve consistently fallen short of playing to our expected seed over a long period of time during the tournament. That is a fact. The question is why? Luck? That may have something to do with, but again, it’s not a one, two or three time thing. Have we (and by extension the B12) been seeded higher than we should have? Probably yes to a degree, but that should actually make EASIER to advance further. And, advanced metrics have largely supported KUs seed most years - at least within a seed line.
Is something else going on? Is coaching an aspect - in terms of preparation, in-game adjustments, and the dreaded “tightness” factor? Perhaps it is inherently unknowable - certainly isn’t provable. By I’m one that has always had the feeling that Self does tighten up during the tournament and it is something could well be felt by and impact the players. It is most manifested in his substitution patters (or lack thereof) during the tournament. That our guys played not to lose, rather than playing to win.
I thought this year was different - that this team had a different character and swagger. But, after yesterday’s game, I don’t know what to think. Oregon struggled to put away URI and Michigan - could easily have lost either game. Didn’t really dominate Iona in the first round. Yet all 3 of those teams scored more points against Oregon than we did. We had our worst shooting %s and lowest point total of the year (eerily reminiscent of last year and other E8 results).
It took us forever to figure out their match-up on zone and adapt. We kept taking shots from the perimeter - some way too quickly - and didn’t drive the ball nearly enough (Frank did for a awhile, with good results). Perhaps we were cowed by Bell? Clearly having JJ on the bench hurt and while we were only down 1 when he came back in, he probably was playing less aggressively than he otherwise would have (and did in the second half).
How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn’t mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations…
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A very disappointing loss, but, hey, what a spectacular season! And the near future looks just as promising, maybe more so, esp. if Graham and/or Svi returns. We must keep upbeat, esp. for Frank and his charge toward national POY. What a gold nugget he has been for this program. Bill Self is fond of proclaiming: Live by the 3, die by the 3. Even so, I think we would have won this contest but for the work of that big kid Bell. We had little answer for his ability to rebound, block shots and stay out of foul trouble. Bill and Co. ran offense his direction again and again, but could not surpass his dominance. It is what it is. Now, on to 2017-18. Hope springs eternal said a dead poet. (Or maybe he was very much alive when he said that…)
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Graham is a really good college player but it was made clear last night why he likely isn’t an NBA guy. I think Frank has a better chance to stick. Never a starter but a guy that hangs around the league a bit as a back-up PG. He can really shoot it and is actually athletic, just short. Newman is pretty athletic, we just need to hope he has really taken to coaching in his year off.
@Blown said:
We have been 1 dimensional all year.
Excellent 3
Average perimeter D
Below average interior d
Below average low post scoring
Below average free throw
All of those factored in last night
Like I said earlier this year, a slightly better version of the good recent ISU teams. We have been spoiled with good interior play in the past, and I hope it returns.
@BigBad said:
If at Late Night we were told that: Bragg would have ZERO impact on the season and Azibuke would be lost due to injury what would have been the expectations for this team?
I would bet that EVERYONE would agree that an Elite 8 run would be outstanding.
Agree. The reason people are mad is because the FF was so close, but this team overachieved.
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@REHawk great way to say it w/out throwing a player under the bus! And our coach!
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@DCHawker I’d say luck played a small factor at least in terms of injury and the starting 5 position.
2017 - KU loses Udoka who would have been the post anchor this team needed. 2016 - KU spends thousands on Diallo, just never panned out. You could argue Diallo never got the time to develop. But we can all agree at the end Diallo was not who we thought he would be.
2015 - Cliff Alexander indefinitely suspended for remainder of season due to eligibility concerns. I’m not convinced the results would have changed, but still sucks that had to happen.
2014 - Embiid goes down. No further comment.A lot of what happened was outside of KU’s control so I’d put that under the luck category.
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My college roommates daughter and son in law paid 500 bucks to be in the arena. I’m sure they’re feeling worse than any of us!
Every year the same thing happens. We lament the unexpected ending to the season. We write dumb things like fire the coach, I’m finding a new team, I’m not going to paint my house crimson and blue after all, and then perspective sets in. We get a few late signees, baseball starts, summer comes around, we tinker with our lineup choices and then bootcamp, and we’re freshly enthusiastic for the next season. Same thing will happen this year. We’ll be back in the conversation again, and again, and again. We’re going to win again one of these years. Keep the faith.
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@DCHawker said:
How much of the game yesterday was on Self and how much of the KU performance in the tournament over the past decade and a half is on Self? I think some of it has to be - he is the one constant. Having said that, he is without question one of the small handful of best college coaches, a Hall of Famer, and I would still rather have Self than any other coach in the game - yes. But that doesn’t mean he is or should be immune from a critical assessment of why we continue to fall short of ours and his expectations…
Couldn’t have said it better myself.
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@wissox said:
We’re going to win again one of these years. Keep the faith.
Actually, I appreciate the optimism.
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@Eric-san said:
@betterfireE I was just talking about being able to match up in size. Bell 6-9 225 Bragg 6-9 240.
I don’t know what their stats say, but the eye test is more important. Bell was thick like Coleby, and Colby is a bigger dude than Bragg with wider shoulders.
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Graham had a horrible game. Vick has a limited skill set at this point. We have no offense from the post.
What adjustment was he supposed to make?
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@betterfireE Fair enough. If we are talking about hypotheticals, I should have just said Udoka is the perfect counter to Bell.
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@BigBad said:
@BShark said:
Graham’s lack of athleticism really showed last night. Dorsey/Graham and Bell/Lucas is where Oregon had clear cut drastic advantages.
Most here dont want to hear that.
Graham has used the attention Frank gets to get wide open shots and then uses his spastic head fake to >clear himself from lower level defenders. Against size and length and equal quickness he struggles.
Graham also never could quite drive like Mason, and I think Oregon realized that. Graham has been reluctant to take it to the rim or use a floater. He will need to add more to his repertoire for next season.
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Undoubtedly, a very painful loss, and adds fuel to the thought that KU is weirdly “snake bitten,” when it comes to March Madness. Under Roy and Self. Always a Bridesmaid, never a Bride. It hurts, and there have been so many factors (players, coaching, injuries, cold shooting nights, off court issues, etc.) that have given rise to our unexpected exits.
But if you would have told me that KU would beat Duke, Kentucky, Michigan State, Purdue, Baylor, West Virginia, ISU, KSU, win their 13th straight Big12 Conference Title (that’s incredibly whack!), make it to the EE, and have a 31-5 record, I would have said "I’LL TAKE IT. I would still love to have a NC, but I’LL TAKE IT!. Other than the 13 straight, I would of course, trade all of the above for a NC. .But damn, we DID have a pretty frickin’ good year by any measure.
I didn’t expect a NC when the season started, but really thought we could pull it off this year as it progressed, and believed we were destined to exceed expectations. It didn’t happen. I am proud of our team and coach, and I look forward to the excitement of next season. We’re gonna be very good again! .
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Graham has been a complimentary player his entire career at KU. It would definitely do him some good to come back and have a starring role imo.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Yeah I wouldn’t trade Self for anyone… yet the results in terms of FF and NC are disappointing.
NCAA record 28 straight years in the tournament and just 1 NC. That feels cursed.
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@HawkChamp Sounds like wanting in one hand then crapping in the other. At least you’re a consistent whiner. Congrats
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@approxinfinity It appears that Coach Altman did a masterful job of getting his team to have a hatred on the basketball court for KU. That was the difference in the game. KU came out expecting to play as the 1 seed, close to their home court, basically having all of the advantages. Oregon on the other hand, had a coach that has had enough of getting his behind handed to him by KU. In hindsight, this factor was greatly underestimated. Based on the way their team and coach behaved after the game, the hate was obvious. They talked about sending the KU Fans home, about KU having home court advantage and about putting the Jayhawks to sleep. It looks like this was the opportunity they were playing for, from the time the tournament started. They were bold I their shot selection and wildly celebrated, which gave them a psychological advantage and left our team a step slow and flat footed as some players began to think too much and self doubt crept in. I think we came in prepared and with a good game plan. We were not prepared to lose Jackson in 2 and a half minutes and for the amount of anger and fearlessness that Oregon played with. Some of our players blinked, when they were being stared at and when you lose focus in the Elite 8, you go home.
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@KansasComet you’re right man. They had the edge psychologically coming in, and while we had a solid plan second half, as @ajvan said in the other thread, JJ and Devonte never got their swag back.
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@approxinfinity I could not agree more.
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@KansasComet I can see how that happened. My thing is, it’s always something. Why are we 5 times out of 7 saying the other team has some trick that got them to the Final Four and we just couldn’t do it?
Don’t get me wrong, glad to have been there the 2 times we were. But for a team that was supposed to win at least 4 out of those other 5 times, why didn’t we?
It’s always something. And that was okay for me for the past few occurrences. But I guess this year put me over the top. If they’re favored in the Elite Eight again next year, who would I put money on? Not KU. And that’s not good.
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@HawkChump and @notokayhawks
I totally get that it sucks to lose. I also get that it’s human nature to want to blame someone for our disappointment. And I realize that we all have different ways of expressing grief, I was pretty crushed last night too.
But posters like you make me wish there was a mute feature on this site. This is a “fan” site. I came to these boards last night during the game because I wanted to hangout with fans who cheer their team on through thick and thin. Like DoubleD was. Even after being down by 20 and playing one of the worst games of our season we still fought back to a two possession game with a few minutes left.
But reading both of you whine the whole game totally killed the board experience for me.
Yes, you have the right to post whatever you want, but maybe for next season’s games you could start a separate thread for the negative whiners to bitch and moan and see who can outcomplain each other, and leave the other game thread for people who try to send out hope and positive vibes to others here, and to the team we care so much about and that gives us so much enjoyment.
I’ll end with my own two cents worth about the game… we played hard, we were not outcoached, we did not choke, we aren’t recruiting the wrong type of players, the refs did not lose the game for us, we were not overseeded… we simply had a night where some key players got cold and the opponents had players that got insanely hot. 4 out 5 times we beat that team.
Two teams take the court and play a game of a thousand subtle variables. Even though one team often has an edge, outcomes are not pre-destined. That’s why winning feels so good.
<steps down off his soapbox and bids everyone adieu>
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First off it was a tremendously successful year even though we came up short of the FF. I think what Frank Mason and his team accomplished was phenomenal. What a great one and done in JJ. I would not trade our team and coach for any other. I did start to have some concerns last Wednesday at the shoot around though. Oregon was scheduled before us and came out on time and worked hard on shooting drills for the full 50 minutes. Their sense of urgency was obvious. KU on the other hand came out 10 minutes after their start time and took it really easy. At the end they spent about 5 minutes chucking up shots from half court. Then they retreated back to the locker room with a full 10 minutes of practice time left. I may be way out in left field here but as a team I felt Oregon played with more intensity and sense of purpose. Part of that might be due to the fact we were blowing teams out prior to this game. Regardless of the outcome I can’t wait to see what HCBS has in store next season. Rock Chalk!
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@chriz This isn’t just a KU issue, this is a Bill Self issue going back to at least Tulsa. This is the 6th time a Bill Self team has had their worst offensive game of the season in the Elite 8 and KU is just 1-5 in those games. There is some kind of issue with Self in the Elite 8 that he has yet to figure out and at this point, I don’t have the confidence in him to ever figure it out. People keep saying that he’ll figure it out, but when? There’s a pretty significant sample size out there now that says Bill Self won’t figure out at this point and I’m at the point now where I’ll have to see it to believe it.
Bill Self and Jay Wright are pretty much the same coach at this point. Both have a pair of Final Fours with miracle titles, but both also consistently underachieve in the NCAA tournament.
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This was a tough loss because we seemed so on a roll, but there were a lot of bad things that happened last night. Some the players fault. Some Self’s fault, and some was just the CBB Gods not shining upon us.
The first was actually way way back in November/December when Doke got hurt. That piece hurts us big time if you ask me. He was what this team needed coming off of the bench. Doke could have at least checked Bell in the post and really changed the game at the rim on the defensive end.
Second, JJ picked up two quick fouls and that immediately made us pucker right up. The guys didn’t know what to do. And they seemed tentative after that on defense which allowed both Brooks and Dorsey to get in a rhythm early.
Third, Bell intimidated us early on and we got scared of him for the rest of the game. Landen couldn’t hang with him. It was the first time all year I felt like Landen was just outmatched by a guy that was both more athletic and strong enough to beat him. Just the way it is. Old Bill would have had a stable of Danny Manning coached big men to throw at Bell and get him in foul trouble and beat him up enough that we could have handled him. But this team didn’t have the bodies or the talent down low to hang with Bell. Instead he had free roam on both sides of the floor and after a couple of blocked shots we really were scared. DG passed up 3 or 4 open threes he normally takes because Bell was the one closing out. Frank completely altered his shot in the lane when he drove missing several shots he would normally make. Bell dominated this game. He was the difference maker and there is no question about it.
And that leads me to my fourth point. Bill didn’t game plan well enough to deal with Bell. Bell switches with everyone all the time. Instead of going directly at Bell the first 20 minutes of the game to ensure he got in foul trouble and had to walk on egg shells, we avoided him. And we watched enough Cole and Withey to know that shot blockers love to play help defense more than anything. We allowed Bell to do that. We should have attempted to switch JJ and Frank on him every possession. Get him on the bench or at least scared to foul. We didn’t do this, at least from what I saw, and that is 100% on Bill. Hindsight is 20/20, but he gets paid the big bucks to be able to make these adjustments.
Fifth point, sometimes it isn’t our destiny or the stars didn’t align or Karma hits or whatever you believe. The back to back 3s to end the half were just a sign of “no matter what you do, this won’t be your night.” Dorsey hitting an NBA 3 with a hand in his face at the end of the shot clock is a sign. JJ picking up two fouls immediately is a sign. Going 0-12 or something like that to start the 2nd half is a sign. It just wasn’t mean to be. And we have to see that.
Finally, what the hell is it about the Sprint Center? We suck there. I mean we are awful in that building. Purdue was an outlier if you ask me. I was at the Davidson game a few years back. We are only 5/9 in Big XII Tournament Championship IN KANSAS CITY. We even get practice games there early in the year. It is absurd. And I just can’t figure out why the hell that is.
Anyhow, that’s my perception on what happened.
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@Jyhwk4life I do know the other day we practiced at another high school before we went to sprint center
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Roy went his first 13 years without a 3rd FF at KU. In fact, he couldn’t get passed the friggen sweet 16 basically from 94 to 01. But then he figured it out. He went to two back to back final fours and then has been on a tear at UNC. He figured it out at age 52. There is still time for Bill to figure it out. In fact, going to the elite 8 that many times is an accomplishment all on its own in my opinion. Not a lot of coaches have been able to even say that.
I’m not saying Bill does his best job in the elite 8, but I’m just saying there is time for him to figure it out. He is an elite coach and is bound to figure it out. He really just needs to get the monkey off his back one time.
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We are sitting here arguing about why Self can’t win in the Elite 8. #firstworldproblems.
At worst, Self is what the 4th best coach in CBB?
Things could be worse.
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@Eric-san You have dredged and come up with a string of definite facts. We have really missed those big guys who did not return. And Doke’s injury likely made for a huge difference this season.
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@Eric-san you r the best!
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@Eric-san and I wouldn’t trade him! I’d be like Josh, pick self over izzo!
