THE FAMOUS LANDON LUCAS SCREEN.
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@wissox said:
Why do we so often have a world’s against us attitude?
Could it be the last decade of appearances of ShoeWars, Vitale asymmetry, Duke promotionism by ESPN, recruiting asymmetry, and being a flyover power apparently embargoed for OAD 1s and 5s have all CONVERGED to give KU fans a chip?
Hey, we never got even a single long stack a la Duke and Kentucky in those bad old days of 9 and 10 OAD rosters! Where is our long stack? Hell, where is our medium stack?
It also doesn’t help that apparent seeding asymmetry and refereeing asymmetry in post season appear to marginalize wrong-time-zone KU into ridiculously more difficult brackets, while promoting certain right-time-zone EST teams into apparently easier ones.
And let’s not even get into this appearance: for a decade or so it has appeared ESPN headlines (I.e., pre format change away from condensed home page headline list, which appeared to highlight the apparent asymmetry) tended to under report KU’s successes and over report KU problems.
Let’s just say that when you have a fabulous coach that wins 83% of his games and he is a good guy and he arguably can’t sign as much quality talent and depth as BEFORE he won a ring in 2008, despite continuing to win a near historic record of consecutive conference titles, media coverage, such as it apppears, triggers a leeeeeeeeeeeeeetle skepticism.
But hey, we keep showing up and cheering despite Bo Ryan calling Duke a bunch of rent-a-players, after he apparently tired of the apparent asymmetries.
Rock Chalk!
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@jaybate-1.0 Nice response. But…we beat Duke and Kentucky regularly lately! I can’t think of officiating costing us a tournament win except way back in 86. I know some will bring up the 'Nova game last year and the Graham foul out call, but that didn’t cost us the win.
Now for the recruiting. Could it be, just asking, could it be that kids see Duke and UK playing on the final weekend a little more regularly than KU and decide they want that as well? Could it be they like those teams’ OAD major? We’ve had some OAD’s as well obviously and many would see us as insiders on the OAD track. How many have we had compared to UK and Duke? Anyone know? And how many have we had compared to others? I’d guess we are top 5 in number of OAD’s nationally since this scourge was forced upon us. That’s top 5 out of 350 DI teams or whatever the bloated number is these days.
I’ll believe your tournament engineering theory when you give me evidence. We’ve had influential members of the selection committee and if there was engineering going on, slanted against KU and others in flyover country you’d think our representatives would be the first to cry foul.
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The guy’s been at KU for 5 years now. His name is LandEn.
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@truehawk93 Lol, when he said Liberal, Kansas was near Lawrence! I couldn’t believe that.
And I’ll agree with what everyone else has said. That was probably a moving screen set by Landen.
And @truehawk93, I’ll add to your list. The TT flop with 2:17 left was Marcus Smart levels of pathetic.
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The Lawrence and Liberal being close was great comedy, kinda like when Wigs was here and his brother was at WSU. They said Wichita was 45 minutes away from Lawrence and I was like ya if you drive 220 mph.
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@truehawk93 said:
I think he tried all he could. He worked the officials all game to get an edge, as all coaches do, but to call him “solid and a class act”? I’m not quite convinced yet.
I tend to try to think positive about our league. Can you point to one thing that challenges Beard’s class or that he isn’t solid? It seems like you contradicted the solid question in your own sentence.
We just going to hate everyone in our league because they aren’t KU?
Hey… if you know bad stuff about Beard, let’s hear it. I don’t see Beard possibly telling his guys to foul as a “cheap play.” Isn’t that just part of coaching? We’ve intentionally fouled before, too.
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Ok, let’s put this to bed. Did LL get whistled for a moving screen? No, therefore it wasn’t. Case closed!
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@drgnslayr I have no problem with Beard. Self seems to like him and he didn’t really bitch after the game even though he seemed to think that the screen was illegal but he didn’t have a real good look. What I did find a bit funny is that he indicated that they thought they would get that pick after our timeout and then they called a timeout to counter it and he told his player to play it tough. In his presser Self indicated that during the TT timeout he actually changed the play because he didn’t like what he had called. It would have taken too much time. What Beard thought he saw wasn’t what he got.
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@brooksmd Based on your theory we won the 2012 NC because Elijah did not travel befor he made the 3 in the corner.
Go to the gif on the Stars ku ap. The guy is going down and LLs left foot is not touching wood. Hell of a pick tho.
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Well, my conspiracy theory goes like this: Officials get a suggestion to ‘just keep it close’… Doesn’t matter who wins – they aren’t biased toward KU or TT… just a close game. So they call it the way they need to keep it close… Ticky tack fouls on Mason and JJ… Let TT run wild (I’m thinking of all those over-the-back no-calls) to stay competitive. When it gets to crunch time, they have a sense of how much they’ve had to lean throughout the game and they ‘lean back’.
Who benefits from keeping it close?
B12? Nope. The league benefits from a strong KU team (see Gonzaga)
NCAA? Not really. They won’t mess with officials (just tournament seedings)
Who could it be? Who has money at stake? Who benefits from close games?
.
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Networks do. Close games = ratings, spike usage of mobile, etc.
But would ESPN have any motive to tamper with its product??
https://www.thestreet.com/story/13199865/1/why-cash-cow-espn-is-becoming-a-drag-on-disney.html
http://www.barrons.com/articles/espn-drop-fuels-disney-doubts-1486507112
http://www.marketwatch.com/story/espn-continues-to-drag-down-disneys-results-2017-02-07
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My belief is that officials miss calls on both sides because they are human. Sometimes it helps us, sometimes it hurts us. Just like every other team. Also, being that the refs are human, the home team often gets a slightly favorable whistle.
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@Fightsongwriter It isn’t theory. I’ve seen all the videos and watched it in slo-mo. Again, did LL get whistled for a moving screen?
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@brooksmd said:
@Fightsongwriter It isn’t theory. I’ve seen all the videos and watched it in slo-mo. Again, did LL get whistled for a moving screen?
So, OJ didn’t do it because the criminal trial jury said he didn’t. OK, gotcha.
But a year later the civil trial jury said he did do it.
So, I am guessing by your reasoning, that something doesn’t happen unless it is officially ruled to happen, that therefore he didn’t do it (although we all know he did it) right up until he did do it some two or so years after he really did it.
You are probably a “No sound unless someone hears the tree falling” guy. I am a “The tree fell making sound whether someone hears it or not” guy. Here, substitute “Tech player getting flattened” for “tree”!
All fun, no malice–except to OJ!
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@wrwlumpy Yeah, , killer screen, reminiscent of the Kevin Young screen on F. Smart. Lando’s screen was solid. He was set for days! Days.
Speaking of flopping. Did everybody catch that flop against Frank? Frank has his hand in the guys face for a three point attempt, does not even come close to touching him and the idiot falls right over, misses the shot, the refs give him three tries at the line. I thought it was complete BS.
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@brooksmd Refs miss calls, we all know that. Refs either missed the moving screen or swallowed their whistles because Landen was still moving when Gray ran into him.
I was driving 85 down the highway the other day when the speed limit was only 70 and flew right by a cop who chose not pull me over. Was I still speeding because the cop chose not to pull me over?
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Sounds logical to me!
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I’m surprised the refs didn’t make a call just because of the impact of the hit. They often seem hellbent more on making some kind of NCAA political statement instead of just calling the game straight.
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I guess in my original post I should’ve said “therefore, officially it wasn’t.” Now, is everybody happy?
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@brooksmd I’m w/you!
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@brooksmd Dr. Brenda Edwards. Great Opthamalogist. She can fix that right up.
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@kjayhawks I forgot about that one.
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@truehawk93 said:
I want to like him and hope he becomes a solid class act in the B12.
I have nothing personal against Beard. I want him to be a solid coach. Whether my observations are correct or not is obviously speculative/opinion. Perhaps I’m not as astute as most on this board. I call them like it see it. Read my response again, I hope he becomes a solid coach in the B12. It’s all good and appreciate your points of view and accountability. I like it when folks hold me accountable. It makes me see things more clearly and with objectivity, and not KU colored glasses.
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@mayjay said:
poor little KU is treated unfairly, rather than looking for a possible reason for the “fact” you are describing.
LOL- The last thing I want is for anyone to see “poor little KU being treated unfairly…” This is a good observation. It seems a bit petty on my part. Maybe I was overhyped at the end of the game.
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@wissox said:
Why do we so often have a world’s against us attitude?
This is a really good question. I would say, because we are KU?
Either way, don’t think KU is the center of everyone’s bball world, just mine.
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Lucas sets screens like that the entire game, every game. That’s why the refs didn’t call it.
I had some close-to-the-floor seats to a game in AFH earlier this season, and I could hear the smack of the impact when Lucas set a high screen on the very first possession of the game. He’s like a pulling guard going out to find the defensive end, except he somehow looks like he draws the contact. LOL
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Great itemization. Makes it all concrete. Thx.
Oh please…nothing I write on here is EVER concrete. I hope your post is completely intended to be humorous toward my half drunk and bias post.
Whatever your motive, RCJHGOKU
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@Texas-Hawk-10 As I said Saturday after the game, it could’ve gone either way. Fortunately, that one call really went KU’s way when it was needed most.
I still say Gray ran into Lucas and the massive collision was incidental. I’ve watched it and wonder if Landen even meant to set a screen. I also wonder if Gray wasn’t attempting to draw something. He ran into LL and it appeared fairly obvious. Most players will slide or move to avoid a screen. He ran right into it. I can’t get over how Gray simply ran into one of the biggest guys on the court. At this point, I’m not arguing moving screen or not, just how Gray ran right into LL. Then he bounced backwards very violently. It almost appeared to be an almost Oscar performance.
Ultimately, 5.4 secs is a difficult time for refs to call much of anything. I think they made the right call under the circumstances. I’d like to think the same way if the shoe were on the other foot.
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““He might be the first guy to shake the (NBA) commissioner’s hand here in a few months (on draft night),” Texas Tech coach Chris Beard said after a near-miss for the improved Red Raiders. “It’s his talent, but you’ve got to give the Kansas coaching staff some credit. (Self’s) guys get better. They come in great and they get better. That’s what makes Kansas Kansas.””
From KUSports.com
He speaks pretty highly of Kansas.
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I’m pretty sure that was one of Bill’s infamous inbounds plays. I think all of those involve screens. Sometimes guys are a bit out of position or out of timing with the play and it can look like it isn’t supposed to be a screen.
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@truehawk93 said:
Ultimately, 5.4 secs is a difficult time for refs to call much of anything. I think they made the right call under the circumstances. I’d like to think the same way if the shoe were on the other foot.
Thank you for your nice posts, taking our observations the right way with humor.
The part quoted above made me remember way back to a Ted Owens game in the early 70s, I think it was in an NCAA subregional game or perhaps Big 8 post season tournament (they actually also had a Big 8 preseason tourney back then–after Christmas). Anyway, I believe it was a big game.
With just a couple of seconds left, and KU down by two, I think, the other team was inbounding the ball and KU had no reasonable prospect to recover the ball and score in the time left. Ted had one of his players set a hidden pick on the guy who was breaking free to get the inbounds pass. It worked to perfection, the guy totally whomped the KU player, and there should have been a foul called with no time gone. Unfortunately they called the foul on KU because the refs did not see him standing motionless–like everyone else, they thought he had moved into the guy.
Ted blamed himself for not warning the refs ahead of time so they could anticipate the collision.
Anyone else remember that one?
At least this is how I remember it some 40 to 45 years later. And I no doubt had a few beers when listening to it in my dorm room! So some of the details might be “alternative facts”–but they are not made up!
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Your OJ example might not be a good one because the criminal and civil cases had different levels of proof, plus there appeared to be evidence of jury nullification in the criminal case that made a guilty outcome unlikely. Also, had a replay would have been used, it would have required incontrovertible evidence to overrule the field call and as I see it, it would have been very difficult to do so. For all practical purposes the call would have stood as originally called.
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Since you were kind enough to respond in some detail, I will try to keep the volley going amicably.
“…we beat Duke and Kentucky regularly lately!”
You didn’t supply evidence the way you ask me to, but I’m cool. Let’s assume you’re right.
Lately, of course does not change what went on before, right? It only refers to lately, so it really serves to highlight that the origins of the dissatisfaction did not necessarily start lately. Lately Villa-refereea appeared to take over EST serve in the post season from Duke and UK, when Duke and UK went on their mysteriously extreme OAD diets shedding down from 9-10 on a team to 4-6 on a team, while KU has cut down from a slim 3 to a near starvation 1.
But let’s reduce the ethers further here.
Did we beat Kentucky with its 6 OAD stack in 2012 for the championship, when we had no OADs? No.
Did we beat Kentucky with its 10 OAD stack in 2015 (or whatever years they had the long stacks)? No.
Did we beat Duke with its 9 OAD stack in 2015? Not sure if we even played them, so let’s say either no, or we did not play them, or if we did they were 'nicked up" at the time.
Have we beaten Duke in pre conference after their long stack teams were reduced to medium stack teams and we had the remnant of short stack (3 OADs)? Yes.
Have we beaten UK in pre conference, when Cal’s long stacks were reduced to a medium stack (4-6 OADs) and we had the remnant of a short stack (3 one time OADs)? Yes.
Have we beaten Duke this season with a short stack and Coach K apparently sick, while we have 1 OAD and a bunch of 3 and 4 stars? Yes.
Have we beaten Cal with a medium stack in pre conference, while we have 1 OAD and a bunch of 3 and 4 starts? Yes.
Does any of this matter? Well, it at least suggests that Self can sometimes beat Coach K and Cal, if Self has 3/4, or 2/3s, or half, or a third, or a 1/4 of the OAD talent that those coaches have, when it is pre conference season, and when apparently asymmetric seeding and apparently asymmetric refereeing of the kind that appearances suggest (at least to me and perhaps to some others) occur in the March Carney, are not appearing to occur so egregiously during pre-conference season.
It also raises a question: why DOES KU have to compete with elite EST programs at an OAD disadvantage in total numbers of OADs? And a 5 star disadvantage in total numbers of 5-stars?
Here is your explanation: “Could it be, just asking, could it be that kids see Duke and UK playing on the final weekend a little more regularly than KU and decide they want that as well?”
Zero evidence. Nada. Zippo. Just a question.
But that’s okay. I’m not strident about lack of evidence, when we are just brainstorming hypotheses here, and not talking theories.
Here is my answer: Because complexity is a female dog, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE. An alien fart on the nearest exo planet COULD have caused OADs to favor Duke over KU by as many as 9 to 3, or UK by as many as 10 to 3, or in 2012 that same alien fart on the nearest exo planet COULD have caused OADs to favor UK over KU 6 to 0.
To reiterate: because of complexity, ANYTHING IS POSSIBLE.
But do you seriously think your question hints at the highest probability of why OADs favor Duke and UK over KU at such anomalous and varying levels, seemingly barely correlated to differences in NCAA tourney performances? I just can’t quite find that the most PROBABLE hypothesis yet, much less view it as a proven theory.
And now to your final point…
“I’ll believe your tournament engineering theory when you give me evidence.”
I will too, whether you, or I, or someone else provides it.
As I try to remind readers here, including you, I know of NO “theory” about tournament engineering. Regardless of how you may wish to use the word theory, “Theory” as I use it is a proven hypothesis. Hypothesis, as I use it, is an explanation posited to start inquiry into an apparent phenomenon. Its utility is in focusing inquiry and directing collection of evidence. It is not a conclusion. It could easily be wrong. It probably will be wrong to some degree, or other. It is a starting point. To my knowledge, no one has proven a theory of tournament engineering. I know I have not. I have only posed a hypothesis of tournament engineering, as a possible point of beginning inquiry to order the collection of evidence to try to explain the appearance (at least to me and maybe a few others) in recent years of the tournament’s seeding and refereeing looking less than symmetric at times. I don’t suspect any illegal conspiracy, or any kind of illegality involved. March Madness just appears to look more and more like professional wrestling and professional prize fighting to mois. Those are both legal sports in my understanding. It could be a complete coincidence that it appears this way. Or it could be engineering of the tournament based on entertainment values coniciding with those sports. I don’t know which it is. I only know the NCAA tourney just doesn’t appear the way it used to appear to me. Maybe it is because I am getting old? Maybe its because of alien mind control from reptilians living amongst us? Or maybe its because of economic pressures and strategic dynamics of the myriad participants in the college basketball industry? Or maybe I’m misperceiving? I thought about it some and decided to take a first cut at possible explanation of tournament engineering underpinned by economic pressures and strategic dynamics. You don’t find it persuasive, as I don’t find your implied hypothesis that OADs are drawn like flies to Duke and UK simply because you believe Duke and UK may survive a little later in the tourney. You need to bring me some evidence on that.
I’ll even add that if you bring me conclusive evidence of some other form of tournament engineering than what I propose, then I will believe your theory of another form of tournament engineering.
And I won’t stop there.
I’ll add that if you posit a hypothesis that the March Madness is completely symmetric in seeding and refereeing, and bring me conclusive evidence of it being so, then I will believe your theory that March Madness is completely symmetric in seeding and refereeing, despite it appearing something like a March Carney to me, then I will accept your hypothesis as proven.
Just bring me conclusive evidence, if you want me to accept one of your hypotheses as a theory; that’s all I ask.
I’m easy to persuade with conclusive evidence. And I think most board rats are.
Until you bring it, or I do, I guess I will just have to keep laboring along with my hypothesis and keep trying to find evidence and support, refute, or revise it.
Rock Chalk!
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Okay. Okay.
However you meant whatever you said; that’s how I take it.
Unless doing so implies anything wrong or bad about me, or anyone else; then I flatly reject whatever you meant, however you said it.
Now, are we absolutely clear?
I thought so.
Next.
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@DanR. I’ll bet there were many OG’s that let out a “hell ya” on that screen. I know that always made my son’s night when he got to pancake a DE.
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@jaybate-1.0 I haven’t read all the posts on this topic between you and @wissox . So, I’m not taking sides here at all. I just want to say that I’m not sure you can diminish any win this season against Kentucky or Duke. Were they a little short handed against us? yeah sure maybe they were but hey, KU, us, we have been short handed nearly all season and we keep winning games that we shouldn’t have a prayer in. Last nights WVU game is a prime example.
You know, earlier in the season I questioned this teams toughness. I said that they were soft and that the 2012 team of 6 guys would kick their asses back to the school yard court. Right now, I think I have to retract that statement at least 3/4ths of the way. Last night our boys proved they are TOUGH. Tough as nails. All 7.5 of our guys are tough as nails. Bragg has some work to do but he had a couple of big boy plays that impressed me last night. I personally think we would give the 2012 team a run for their money. I really do. TRob would be all over Landen, no contest there. But what would TRob do when he had to switch onto Josh or Svi on the perimeter? Both those guys at 6’8" just as tall and could drain threes or drive around the slower but way stronger TRob. That’s just one match up problem I see.
I do think the 2012 team would win in a head to head match up but it would be a very very close game. Our guards this year are way way better than the 2012 team. So, both teams have match up advantages and disadvantages. I like our guys now. They are learning to fight all the way til the final whistle. Never say die. That gives me good feelings about March. I believe they can win with an asymmetrical whistle and a poor trey shooting night. That makes them very tough to beat next month
