Bill RE: Next Season
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@BeddieKU23 if you have them just one year, do you want Duval or Young?
Of course that is if Duval becomes eligible.
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Do we have any updates on Duval? Or is it just all eggs in the Young basket?
I’m scared to rely on a grad transfer, but I guess it could be worse. Getting an experienced PG for one season to bridge the gap while we have Svi, Newman and Vick to do our scoring. Plus another year of development from Bragg and Doke and bringing in Preston. Our post play should be very solid next season to make up for our lack of PG play.
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@Kcmatt7 said:
Do we have any updates on Duval? Or is it just all eggs in the Young basket?
I’m scared to rely on a grad transfer, but I guess it could be worse. Getting an experienced PG for one season to bridge the gap while we have Svi, Newman and Vick to do our scoring. Plus another year of development from Bragg and Doke and bringing in Preston. Our post play should be very solid next season to make up for our lack of PG play.
Sure seems like Duval was just waiting on the Duke offer and will end up there.
The best hope is for Young as this point. Without a doubt KU is a top 3 team next year with Young/Newman/Vick/Preston/Doke. Bragg could honestly return too at this point which would be a nice plus. Definitely in for some growing pains if it comes to fruition though. Young, Newman and Preston are quick to shoot and slow to pass.
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A month ago I would have said Duval but I prefer Trae Young.
You can’t go wrong with either but Duval is an OAD, I don’t think the OAD option is there for Young and with what he’s said to the media that is not his plan anyway.
I think Duval is waiting out the Duke offer as @BShark said and roster movements at the end of the year. What Matt Coleman decides to do is important in this battle. If Coleman signs with Duke- KU is definitely the favorite (if Young doesn’t sign with KU before that point). If Coleman goes to Texas or the unlikely 3rd option in Stanford- Duke will probably win his recruitment.
I’m almost certain Bill Self wants Trae Young more than Duval. Young is an outstanding kid both on/off the court. Self has been after him since his Sophomore year and every chance Self and his staff get since the spring they have been following him full staff. That’s unusual to do when KU is usually after a lot of guys and resources need to be spread out.
Duval & Young would both fit differently in the KU system.
Duval is a tremendous athlete- elite for the PG position ( I think Derrick Rose/John Wall) when I see him. Neither was a prolific jump-shooter but athletically/physically they were better then everyone around them. Duval is not a great shooter and lives by getting into the paint. At the next level he will have to work on his shot a lot- think Josh Jackson in terms of shooting ability at this point. Duval has excellent vision, transition skills and speed to go along with excellent ball-handling. He’d fit in well with Vick/Newman/Svi (possibly back) & Garrett.
With Young your getting a floor leader and in my opinion one of the most fearless and elite shooters I’ve ever seen at the High School level. In the gym range is a term that I don’t throw out lightly and Young has that ability. When you look at how Steph Curry has changed the NBA game with his shooting I see some similarities in Young. Young isn’t an elite athlete-maybe sometimes underrated but by no means an above-the-rim player so that limits his attractiveness in the NBA. He’ll have to become really good at everything else to make up for that. Young is also a kid that can become versatile in the 2 PG option that Self has been using currently. You can put Young off the ball because his shooting ability has to be accounted for. He would provide better floor spacing for the offense. I would be okay with using Trae as our primary ball-handler as a freshman. It’s not ideal but I don’t think Young is the type of player you can keep off the floor if he picks up the offense quickly.
Defensively Duval would be the better get. Duval has excellent size and length to bother opposing PG’s. I think Young is also an underrated defender but in College he’s going to have to bulk up some to handle guys that are bigger and more mature than him.
In the end I would take Young’s shooting ability and versatility to play the secondary ball-handler position that Graham currently fills. Plus your getting a multi-year player that will provide more roster stability.
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@BeddieKU23 I just want to see what Bill could do with a Rose/Wall type of player.
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The last bit is the kicker for me. If it’s one year of each, I’d probably take Duval but Young is a 5star 2018 recruit too and better than anyone we could get in that class as a FR.
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Exactly I’m not big on the 18 point guards but if we get one I hope its Dotson.
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It would be interesting. Duval is not the type of PG that ends up at KU- he ends up at Kentucky but since Kentucky isn’t involved he must go somewhere. He would definitely be an exciting player to watch in a KU uniform.
I bet a lot of scouts would say Duval over Young but I think that is largely because Duval projects as a better NBA player. Young will be a better College player especially if he sticks around 2-3 years as expected. I’ll take the better College Player that would potentially start for multiple years at KU over a guy who has eligibility questions /has been linked to possibly going oversea’s and is only going to be in college 1 year.
Regardless, as long as KU lands one of them we will be in good shape for next year.
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@BeddieKU23 said:
Exactly I’m not big on the 18 point guards but if we get one I hope its Dotson.
I’m not even sure who else KU is really in on in terms of 2018 PGs at this point. Quickley is a stud but going to UW or UK most likely (but never count Duke out). The Orca whale will lock up Brandon Williams and Quinerly is good but feels like a kid that will stay out east. Only other one I can think of is Jamie Lewis who should be a good multi-year PG in the same kind of ranking range as Graham and Mason last I knew (Mason’s composite ranking dipped due to ESPN not ranking post grads). KU hasn’t offered Lewis yet though.
Hopefully we land Young and go into that year with Young and Garrett running the show as Sophs.
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Couldn’t agree more! That would be an awesome duo
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Dynamic. Could have it like Graham and Mason where they both share ball handling responsibilities.
“Garrett drives to the rack, the defender slides over but wait he stops and passes out to Young for a trifecta! It’s good baby! You can’t leave Young open, he’s a killlllaaaaa.” Dickie V covering a KU game, hopefully.
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@BShark all but the Dickie v!
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Really enjoyed your long post comparing Young and Duval.
You convinced me, but it is rare for me to pick an OAD PG over a multi-year PG because we need experience at that position (for many reasons).
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No problem. We are in a rare position with the roster where a freshman point guard could be running the show next year. We are also lucky to be after two outstanding basketball players that both offer contrasting styles of play.
I’ve started to open up to the idea that Malik Newman might be one of our primary ball-handlers next year and his year practicing with the team is going to build the trust that Self needs in his floor general. I don’t think he’s an ideal fit to run the team but I’m open to the idea after a lot of fellow bucketeers have expressed their opinion on him.
Duval is really good and if he ends up at KU we will be happy to know that at least we tried to fill the PG spot with the best possible talent available.
With Young I just feel will be better for the team next year and the future.
Self talked about how Josh Jackson “unpacked his bags” a cliche to point out that even though he’s an OAD he’s completely bought into the team until the time comes for him to decide on his future. Without knowing Duval personally and just judging my opinion on how his recruitment process has gone and what scouts/etc have said I don’t think Duval would be the type that '“unpacks the bags”- kind of a kid that has 1 foot out the door as some do that know that College is just a stop on the road. That opinion is not meant to be negative in any way towards Duval, its simply just a thought I have regarding him.
Now with Young we have gotten a much deeper perspective of his recruitment. He’s big about his family and KU has been after him for over 2 years. When Young visited they rolled out the red-carpet. They played highlights of his father- a Texas Tech alum who played in Allen Fieldhouse and had a magical game years ago against KU. That hit home for the Young family and it was big for KU to use that as a recruiting tool. I feel as though Young will be here a few years if he came to KU and would be a player we get more out of. He has the ability to play major minutes as a freshman but also develop here and become a fan favorite. I love the versatility he offers on offense and his ability to shoot the ball. With how the game has changed Young’s ability to stretch the floor is a huge advantage to have on your team. We shall see in the coming months what happens…
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The question for me is always who makes the team better in each given year.
So next year’s core of Vick/Newman/Svi/Bragg/Azuibuke/Preston/Lightfoot/Garrett gets to add either a PG with a very good shooting touch that may be a bit undersized or a great athlete that may struggle with his shooting stroke, but is devastating in transition and when he gets into the paint.
I’m taking Duval with the group I listed above simply because he, Newman and Vick will put a lot of pressure on perimeter defense, and adding a guy like Duval to that core puts KU right back into the national title hunt.
Not saying that Young would be a disappointment. I think he would be great, but Duval puts so much pressure on the defense because of his slashing ability that he creates space by collapsing the defense, while Young creates space with his shooting gravity. The thing is, shooters have slumps. Slashing doesn’t slump.
Additionally, Duval has the superior defensive potential. That allows him to plug in alongside Vick and form a potentially dynamic defensive backcourt.
I don’t so much worry about 2018-19 because that team could be so much different. You’re potentially looking at Azuibuke, Bragg, Vick and Newman all being gone, plus Svi. Trying to guess about how Young helps that next group is tough, because all we can assume is that Lightfoot and Garrett will be there, with Preston hopefully also back for year 2. Trying to project the rest of that squad is basically impossible. Maybe Newman is back, in which case it may not be critical to have Young returning. With that much uncertainty, I’d rather take Duval and see if the small difference between him and Young is the difference between a title or not than hope for two or three really good seasons from Young, but missing out on a Final Four.
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Many people in here complain about Kansas not winning more NCs.
I wonder how many championship teams are led by a freshman PG?
I know one team. Kentucky… 2012… against us… Marquis Teague.
But other years? I have to put an asterisk beside that Kentucky team because Calipari was already used to making all-star freshmen produce in a starting role. Anthony Davis dominated that game with 6 blocks and probably more than 10 shots he changed. And he pulled down 16 rebounds.
If we go for OAD PGs… aren’t we also sacrificing the next year’s chances as a national contender? So, essentially, we eliminate 2 years in contention?
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@Kcmatt7 Well we know Duval is for sure ONE year. Trae not so sure - - maybe - -maybe not, there is a chance he might have 2 yrs- -nothing promised on that but maybe. Would be quite the dilemma, - - as we know Duval IS the real deal, he could be playing in the N.B.A right now - -he is ready- -scouts says he is ready, as much he would be awesome to have - -I think I would go ahead and take Trae - -not a bad 2nd choice for sure - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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It’s not ideal to have a freshman running the show. But what is the alternative? In a perfect world Devonte Graham would stay his senior year but even our coach thinks that won’t happen. No other PG on the roster unless we want to say Newman is a PG. It’s been a great run with Graham/Mason but those guys don’t grow on tree’s. The re-set button is on the horizon, we are going young it seems no matter what happens.
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@drgnslayr Duke won it with Fr Tyus Jones. It’s becoming more common as the talented kids bolt for the NBA.
Personally I’d take both players. Why not? I’m sure Bill could get them all on the court, esp. if the 4-1 looks good this year.
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I’m asking questions because I really don’t know. From my historic perspective it seems like a mistake to sign an OAD for PG. But looking at today’s game, maybe not.
Ah yes, Tyus Jones. Good response. So we have at least 2 freshmen PGs bringing home the gold in the past few years. That definitely makes me think harder about my “historic perspective.”
Gosh… just look at Josh. Does he really play like a freshman? And by the end of this year, he may be playing like a senior. It isn’t just the fact that he is athletic and has a treasure chest full of moves. Sometimes you see him assess the situation and take advantage of his man out of position, or he bluffs like he is lagging on defense when he is preparing for another steal.
Maybe I’m thinking about this all wrong. Maybe I value the experience factor too much.
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I look at winning a national championship like this.
You have to have X amount of talent to win a national title. That’s the bare minimum. Let’s say that in any given year, you have to have 80 talent to win a national title at a minimum. Anything less than 80, you can’t win because you just aren’t talented enough to get through all of the games - maybe not even quite good enough to make the tournament.
Now, if you are only 80, you probably need to have a superb individual star carry you (think Kemba Walker or Danny Manning). As you move above 80, you don’t need that singular star because you just have so much talent at your disposal anyway.
So really, winning a title is a two step process. Step 1 is get to 80 - again, that’s just an arbitrary number to set a baseline. Step 2 is getting as high as you can after 80 to increase your chances. Let’s say that for every point above 80 you go, your chances of winning a title increase by 20%. So if you have a 1% chance of winning a title with 80 talent, 81 talent gives you a 1.2% chance of winning, 82 gives you a 1.44% chance, 83 is 1.72%, 84 is 2.06% and so on.
So of course, based on that, you want to stockpile talent because that alone increases your chances just because you are good enough to win six games in a row because of your talent.
After that, it’s still comes down to those six games, but your chances are better with more talent.
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I agree its risky because your basically hitting the re-set button in 2018 as well. Back to the same issue recruiting your next leader.
Duval is that situation. He might give you one spectacular season though.
Young is in the Devonte Graham route 2/3 maybe even 4 years of College. Young won’t wow any scout with his size, athleticism, measurable’s so he’s a candidate to be a very good College player with a limited ceiling in the NBA. Young is the type of player that if he stayed 4 years, breaks scoring records. He scored 52 in a game recently with 9 dimes.
Self put us on the OAD map, he’s chasing the best talent and knows that a 4 year window with top players has shrunk considerably. 7 of the 10 players on this years roster have a good chance of making an NBA roster in the future. The 2 kids he’s signed already make 9.
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@drgnslayr We will still have Garrett to run point 2 years from now. I’d expect a So. Garrett to be ready to go.
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Interesting post. Never heard that concept before.
So using your “80” as a minimum… where does this Kansas team come in at?
And… could Josh be that special player you mention? Or someone else on this team?
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This KU team is easily in the 90s on total talent. With as many as 7 future pros on the roster, this team has tons of talent. This team is easily more talented than last year’s team (probably more of a high 80s or low 90s level talent team). The most talented teams in recent memory were Kentucky 2015, Duke 2015, Kentucky 2012, North Carolina 2009, Florida 2007, Kansas 2008 and North Carolina 2005. The least talented champions were Duke 2010 and UConn 2011 and 2014.
Looking across the nation, the most talented teams (in no particular order) are Kansas, North Carolina, Kentucky, Duke, UCLA and Indiana. I would be very surprised if those six teams are healthy and at least 2 of them don’t get to the Final Four. Baylor, Villanova, and Xavier are all very good, but they can’t match those first six in terms of raw talent. However, I think I just listed three or four of the Final Four teams, and I am almost certain I just listed this season’s champion.
Put it this way, if you told me that I had to, right now, pick this season’s NCAA champion and you gave me five guesses, I would pick KU, UK, Duke, UCLA and UNC, and I would feel fairly comfortable that I would be right. Obviously that’s not foolproof, but with the level of talent those five teams have (it’s possible that those teams have 12 of the first 17 picks in next year’s NBA draft, and possibly as many as 15 or 16 overall draftees. That’s talent.
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Vanderbilt cut KU. Not a surprise, but now 100% confirmed he won’t be a Hawk next year.
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Perfectly okay with that, watched some of his AAU games this summer couldn’t believe he was that highly ranked. maybe he’s improved
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I will admit I haven’t seen much of him. Assumed he is good because Calimari wants him.
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@justanotherfan KU, UK, Duke, UCLA, UNC? You just listed all the most traditional high-elite blue bloods. Whats changed? Interesting how the top doesnt change much. Doesnt mean one of these teams cant get knocked off by someone in the madness, but the conventional wisdom hasnt changed…and its taken a TON of work by each of these programs and their coaches to be and remain on this list. Each of these teams is an absolute contender to win a NC this season. And in most seasons.
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Vanderbilt is good, don’t get me wrong I would put him more in the 40’s range because he lacks a jump-shot with any consistency right now. He can handle the ball and push the ball in transition, has pretty good vision, rebounds well and finishes above the rim. I don’t think he was a fit at KU from how we like our 3 and 4 man to have shooting ability. If that is the way Self recruits those positions going forward with how successful the last few years ago have gone, guys like Vanderbilt probably won’t get as much attention from us. I know there was mutual interest for a while but I think when Self narrowed in on Preston, Vanderbilt wasn’t needed. We better hope that decision doesn’t backfire
I would like to see more of him but the games I saw him play he wasn’t as active as I expected. Definitely needs to learn to play with a more consistent motor to play under any of his finalists, especially UK. Oregon in my opinion would be the best fit for him as they like to use similar guys as their 4 man. I’ve had a hard time finding a good comp for him. For his ranking he’s borderline OAD type but I don’t see it.
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Yikes, mom wants him close to home… That probably does it for KU’s chances
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There are years where I wouldn’t list some of those schools. 2005, 2006 and 2009, for example, I would not have listed KU. Until this year, I probably wouldn’t have listed UCLA since the Ben Howland years. Kentucky, between the 1998 title and Calipari being hired, probably doesn’t make that list. UNC isn’t on that list for the years between Smith and Williams. Even Duke misses that list here and there despite not having a coaching change over the last 25 years or so.
The difference for these schools is that they have the resources to get back on that list. Butler had a great run, but couldn’t keep Brad Stevens. Had that been Indiana, they could have probably kept him (assuming he wasn’t set on going to the NBA). They are still good, but not title contender good.
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I am curious why you would leave out the 3 years Bill Guthridge was UNC HC? He compiled an 80-28 record that tied him for most wins all-time by a coach after 3 years and he made the Final Four twice in those 3 years. A pretty damn good record if you ask me.
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I forgot about those years. Went straight to the bad years after and left out those years. Good call on that.
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Yeah we will see how much it matters.
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Norm was watching Walker again today. Things are heating up.
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Sam Cunliffe visiting Jan 2nd. He recently escaped the ASU dumpster fire.
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Interesting, I liked Cunliffe out of High School. Very Athletic, deep range on the jumper, good handles and can get to the lane and finish. I see a player Self would want. Not sure he defends anything but we’ll see how the visit goes.
Some ASU people have commented on his sudden departure. I can see where they might be upset, he was the highest ranked kid to come to ASU since James Harden. Tough to lose talent you think might be the face of your program if he developed. Might be a kid that needs to mature and be grounded. A lot of talk about him not getting along with teammates, upset with playing time even though he was starting, upset with role in the offense. Who knows what is actually true but there might be some “baggage” attached to him. He attended 3 High Schools, switched AAU squads. Sounds like the typical today’s kid that wants everything. Honestly have no clue whether to believe those claims or not, but if he comes to KU he only has one way or its the highway. Would be a really good get as a mid-season transfer, I think KU needs him desperately if Svi tests the waters and leaves
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I hope we get him. Three years removed from HS Cunliffe is better than any wing KU can realistically get in the 2018 class as a Frosh.
If the staff misses on Young then Marcus Keene could be an option if he decides to grad transfer. Currently averaging 30 ppg for CMU. 5’9’’ 160 though.
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I agree we’ll see what happens going forward. I’m sure he wants to enroll at another school rather soon.
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@BeddieKU23 @BShark Cunliffe would be a good pickup. Is he visiting anywhere else?
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Not sure. I feel it has to bode well that KU is getting a visit so soon.
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Saw Gonzaga could be in play, Cunliffe is from Washington. If he makes it past the KU visit without committing he might end up close to home.
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I read that scholarships could be an issue for Gonzaga.
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Interested to see if Self goes after Jahmal McMurray from South Florida who is also tranferring. Native of Wichita, prolific scorer but has some baggage apparently. Was averaging 20 a game in the 3 games he did play this season.
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Originally from Topeka, went down to Wichita to play at Sunrise. The reason for suspension was undisclosed, but I would think Bill could get that info if he were looking to take the kid.
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reflecting for a moment. Isn’t it crazy that we get intrigued by any transfer with a pulse these days? It’s almost become 2nd nature to be looking at the transfer market as just as an important tool to fill your roster as is getting those elite recruits and Frank Mason’s of the world. Crazy how much things have changed
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@BeddieKU23 I wonder if that’s a product on the OAD era. It’s no big deal to leave after a year. Personally I’m a lifetime Jayhawk, no worries about me transferring my loyalty.
