What's Wrong with this Picture?
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@HighEliteMajor I agree to a point. I would rather Bragg and Diallo get minutes in a home game than on the road, even if it is against Iowa State or Baylor.
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The following quotes are from last night’s SDS Chat.
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OK @HighEliteMajor…do you think we lose last night if Diallo and Bragg missed the flight to SD and didn’t make the trip? We are all very interested.
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@HawkInMizery I’m always perplexed to see LL on the court when Diallo or Bragg could be out there. He can seal the post, we get it…but…
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Actually, I didn’t offer an opinion. It’s kind of funny how folks just react with angry statements. The same folks that have sat obviously quiet while we have won by a combined 90 points in the last three games with Traylor playing a total of 13 minutes.
But I think last night was quite a bit different than the Lucas vs. Harvard thing, for example; or the “Traylor was the best player” vs. Loyola. Both were farces.
I thought Traylor played very well in the second half. And last night, when Traylor went in the game, it did seem like momentum switched after a few trips up and down the floor. That was a game where home crowd, momentum, etc. - you don’t know how things can swing. Sure, Self could have subbed out Traylor and played Diallo or Bragg, but he did what he said he was going to do, an rode the hot hand.
But more importantly, Self isn’t saying that Traylor is a 20 minutes per game guy every game. His actions have shown that it’s flexible and pliable. Self has actually been pretty clear in where this is headed. That’s much better than saying Traylor is a rotation mainstay. We have now moved past that I think. We know what the future holds. It’s just a matter of time.
Traylor is most effective situationally. Last night seemed like a “situation” to me.
Actually, Traylor had zero turnovers and he had 3 steals. Those are big deals when he plays 20 minutes. The offensive boards were very important, of course. But Traylor was disruptive, something he has to be to be effective, and he didn’t give back his steals in the way of turnovers. Which happens frequently.
This is the sort of “peak” performance game we’ll see from Traylor. We’ll get some of them. This was Traylor at his best, minus a few put backs that he tends to get when he’s playing well. But that didn’t matter last night. The consistency of good performances is what we see that is lacking. Thus why the need to have a better rotation alternative.
There is zero doubt in my mind that Self made the right decisions to win last night. That seems self-evident by our clear control of the game and the margin of victory.
I have a macro opinion of “play the best player” to reach our ceiling. But the “micro” of “win the game at hand” is a different discussion. The macro is the discussion of Diallo and Bragg, and their minutes.
It’s a lot easier to accept the playing time for Traylor when it appears clear that Self has moved past the idea of Traylor as a 20 mpg guy every night. Much, much easier.
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Each game is different. It is up to Coach Self to figure out what works. Jamari played like a Senior last night. He showed why Coach Self believes in him. It was a joy to watch. Diablo is five game behind and that is unfortunate. Hopefully, he will catch up in Conference play. Bragg is going to be special. This year’s team has talent and experience in the post. That’s a nice problem for Coach Self to have. Great win on the road.
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Thank you. I’m not angry with you. I agree with your missive and I do know that Traylor will be getting less minutes and I agree with you that Diallo will play more and Traylor less. However, as soon as he goes into a game, for any minutes whatsoever, why do some people yell NO NO. I felt very safe with the coaching decision last night and was hoping like all of us are that Diallo will be our Savior. Actually, Diallo emulates Traylor in his ability to not be averse to diving for a lose ball. Merry Christmas.
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I’m with many who want to see Cheick get more minutes so he is ready in March.
However… what Self is doing is rewarding the group of guys on the floor that are getting the best results. The first half he throws everyone out there, and the second half is the reward for the best combinations. As soon as he sees Cheick as the best option, Cheick will get those second half minutes.
This is smart. Make these guys earn their minutes every game. And we have several bigs who are seniors, so he doesn’t belittle them by just benching them and playing for “potential.”
This is the way to keep all of these guys working hard in practice and fighting for minutes. And it should keep the guys happy because it is up to them to perform well enough to get those second half minutes.
I get the feeling Self is rethinking his recruiting. Sure, he wants the top players. But ALL recruits will have to earn their PT on his team. Every once in a while we will land an elite that isn’t afraid of working hard and fighting for his minutes. Self can’t change the mindset of the elite masses. He has to deal with a bunch of unrealistic kids.
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@ajvan i’m just as perplexed as you and seems as if he always picks up one really dumb or obvious offensive foul every game
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@HighEliteMajor Wow, i am kindof reluctant to post this but I’m surprised that my breakdown of what I saw is rougher than yours. I was actually thinking that Traylor was the reason why SDSU went on that run and cut the lead to just 4. Having Traylor in the game takes away a scoring threat on offense. He simply cannot score and limits the flow of offense. We end up playing 4 on 5 in the halfcourt offense. I watched time after time our team struggle to get into sync with him in the game. Couldn’t stop yelling at the TV hoping that somehow Self would hear me and sub him out. I don’t think its coincidence that our offense was running like a well oiled machine for the first half of which he did not play much at all that I can recall. Sure SDSU made some adjustments but so did we, and ours hurt us too.
To give him some credit though, I think your comment that he did well within his limitations is perfectly accurate, some big rebounds, a nice steal, and most importantly his free throw shooting. Thats the best we will see. But if Bragg is in the game instead of Mari, I really don’t think that the lead gets down to where it did, I feel very strongly about that. If a firefighter starts a fire, then saves the family inside the burning building by putting it out, is he still a hero?
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@drgnslayr Solid. Very well put.
It does seem though, that Bragg and Diallo get the quick hook and they need playing time to be ready for March. We are less than a couple weeks away from the start of conference and they need to be ready for that too. That being said, Perry and Traylor were our best bigs last night. They both played extremely well and deserved a lot of credit for that big win.
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@RockkChalkk The offense came to a halt at the beginning of the second half because the ball was sticking much more than in the first. People were trying to dribble rather than pass and play became a bit more selfish. This was much more on Frank, Wayne, and Devonte than Jamari. We didn’t get any real scoring from the 5. We got 2 points from Hunter, 2 from Carlton, 4 from Cheick, and 6 from Jamari. How did our scoring slow down because of him? As was pointed out, he was in the second half to get things moving after the team showed a lack of hustle at the beginning of that half and to hit the boards which he did.
Since Self was getting what he wanted from him he stayed in. I was screaming at the TV also in the second half. That had much, much more to do with missing bunny after bunny after bunny than with the lack of offense from Jamari.
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@sfbahawk Yes…missing those layups was driving me crazy. That and some sloppy play on our part was how SDSU got back into the game.
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you know what? wouldn’t it be great to be able to change spots with Coach? I mean he could come switch spots in our house, let him sit in the recliner, kick back have his brew, or pop, or tea WHATEVER, and some chips have his snack, be able to kick back watch the game, be able to yell at the TV,& we be the coach? wouldn’t that be sweet? ummmm 2nd thought, you know what? I think I’ll stick with Coach Self, his play calling, his decision making, I mean I think I’ll go with the guy that ummmm I dunno- - that has won 11 straight conference championships, that is 195-9, hasn’t lost 10 games at home since he has been here, a coach that has won a national Championship for us, a Coach who’s teams have been in the top 25, and close to the very top of the top 25 since he has been here, and what I think I heard he is or right about like 361-79 a 82% winning pct in his coaching career? - - -umm ya, I think I will have a tendency to stick with him instead of myself or any of ya all’s as the coach, Ya Ya I know we all could be THAT coach right? sure looks like he has to be making some right decisions for him to have accomplished, what he has accomplished, I just got this feeling that he might, just might know just a little bit more about whats going on then we do, so I think I’ll just continue to sit here in my recliner, drink my juice and be able to chill and let the Coach,- -Coach we gonna be ok, our C5’s ARE GONNA BE FINE. Until Cheick, can come to the realization that he is not going to be able to block every single thing that comes to the basket, until Cheick comes to the realization that he has to stay on his feet and not leave them everytime there is a little head fake, until Cheik can stay on the floor without committing a fould like a foul every 2 minutes, exp ( fouls out in 10 minutes of playing time) then he will continue to get limited minutes, yes he looked better the amount of time he was in last night, more relaxed, but like others have said Jamari was getting it done, & I have no problem what so ever with Coach playing him the amount of time he did. Cheick will get there, but like so many others have said, he is raw very, very raw going to take time ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@RockkChalkk You certainly make excellent points. Traylor limits our offense all the time. Can’t argue with you at all there. I would not have played Traylor over Bragg, period. The only point I was making was that in seeing the result, and the 3 steals vs. zero turnovers, and the offensive boards, Traylor had a good game from a “net” standpoint.
We have some folks here that just react angrily at any discussion of Traylor. I’ve found what gets them even angrier are numbers and stats, so I apologize in advance, since it is Christmas time.
Last season, Traylor had 20 games where he committed more turnovers than steals – 20. He only had 4 games where he had more steals than turnovers. This is important for Traylor because he doesn’t score, and his activity and supposed “energy” are why he’s playing. The SDSU game was the first in his career at +3, steal/turnovers (not saying that is ever expected from a post player in one game; but it stood out and explains my favorable position on Traylor in the SDSU game). He also has a nice offensive rebounding game. All that is why this game vs. SDSU was such an outlier.
Now, Traylor didn’t score vs. SDSU – just 6 points. But that was largely irrelevant given the balance of his numbers.
So this was one of exceptions to the “negative net” rule for Traylor.
By the way, for the angry Traylor lovers, he is still our worst rotation player. His player efficiency rating is still the worst on the team, even after his “peak” performance Tuesday.
But the Diallo/Bragg question that Traylor gets lumped in with is not a micro one, it is a macro one. And I plan to address that in a few days.
@JayHawkFanToo Of course, you didn’t answer my questions about Traylor.
Regarding Diallo and Bragg, yes, I think we win at SDSU without either of them. In fact, I think we could go 25-10 or 27-9 and lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tourney without them, as well.
With that backhanded question, I will acknowledge (as I have in the past) that Traylor (with CF) saved us from losing to Eastern Kentucky in the first round in 2013-14 with the best performance of his life. Without Traylor, I’ll acknowledge we lose in the first round that year.
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For this new year, I’m going to make a little space in my heart for Jamari. I’m not saying I’ll be unrealistic about expectations; but the kid is a hard worker and beloved by Self. I’m going to appreciate the fact that Jamari adds depth to the soul of this team, and look at his minutes as more than just productive, tangible basketball output.
We’ll see how long this lasts, but that’s one of my resolutions.
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“Self was quoted when talking about the C5 that if you spoke with, Ellis and Frank, they would rather have Jamari on the floor, but Self said that we have to find minutes for Diallo and Bragg to play.”
I think Jamari probably offers the best team chemistry. Besides Perry, he is the guy that has plenty of game experience and half a decade to learn the system and players.
Cheick is a work in progress. He is starting to learn a few low post finishes now. He has to start fusing in better with team play on both sides of the ball. I’m sure he isn’t a selfish player, but team chemistry typically takes time to develop.
Carlton brings a total different skill set, including the ability to hit midrange. And his low post passing is the best I have ever witnessed from a KU post player. The chemistry seems to be starting to click more with Carlton than Cheick, but Cheick is playing catch up.
We can clearly see how Cheick’s NCAA punishment hurt him and hurt us.
I wonder if Cheick is a sure OAD? It seems that if he is, Self would be making public statements about that to show potential big men recruits so they would be more certain and sign with KU.
I wonder about that.
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“That being said, Perry and Traylor were our best bigs last night.”
Self recently dropped the hammer on our seniors. In a nutshell, Self said: “it is time our seniors play like seniors.”
And they did. Perry and Jamari brought their big boy games to San Diego.
This is outrageously crucial. The focus has to be on our senior leadership, not our potential OADs.
Self is pushing on our experienced players to play their best. And our underclassmen are supposed to REACH UP to the level of play provided by our experienced players, instead of our experienced players FALLING DOWN to the level of our rookies.
I am always critical of Self. It isn’t his fault, it is me. I’m just that way. But I have to say that I can’t find much criticism lately. He seems to really be on his “A-game” including his energy on the sidelines for games. He seems more perked up lately. I see him standing and shouting on the sidelines compared to some of his recent years where he mostly sat and quietly conversed with his assistants.
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@approxinfinity he is a Jayhawk! I think being one is very meaningful to him, perhaps more than others.
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@drgnslayr Excellent point. He has started to play to this team’s strengths, but just because you play outside - in doesn’t mean you can’t throw it inside occasionally and play tough defense. So far, it seems to be one of his best coached seasons.
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@JayHawkFanToo Of course, you didn’t answer my questions about Traylor.
Regarding Diallo and Bragg, yes, I think we win at SDSU without either of them. In fact, I think we could go 25-10 or 27-9 and lose in the first weekend of the NCAA tourney without them, as well.
You missed my point. You could leave just about any KU player at home and still win (or lose) most games, so zeroing on Traylor when the same can be said about any other players was disingenuous, wouldn’t you agree?
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@HighEliteMajor I’m a little confused at the reactions to your comment.
He simply asked the question because in the past, Traylor was hailed as the best player in the second half a few games back and you analyzed that we would still have won without him. Compare that to this game, and you have a different outcome.
I’m not sure how anyone can disagree with your post that is based on facts and not an immeasurable aspect like chemistry and arbitrarily adding value to what you can’t measure.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but to sum your opinion, it’s simply JT shouldn’t be a regular top 3 big in the rotation but that doesn’t count him out for getting 20 minutes depending on the matchup and situation.
People preemptively assumed you were down playing JT in that game when in reality, it was the opposite.
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@JhawkAlum You are exactly right. Certain folks here have comprehension problems. It would be top 4 in the rotation, from my perspective, with Lucas or Traylor as the 5th.
@JayHawkFanToo Do you not even try to connect the dots here and the reason for my post above with the question, before suggesting that my comment is disingenuous?
First, of course. We could have gone to SDSU without Mason and won. Or without Ellis, most likely. Or anyone. Of course. You have identified the self evident. And, as you saw, I answered your question. We are playing inferior non-conference opponents.
Second, with that, it highlights the silliness of playing Lucas 24 minutes earlier in the season at home – again, as if we couldn’t have won without him. Pure nonsense. The same with playing Traylor 21 minutes vs. SDSU (Macro, not micro – Traylor played well vs. SDSU). Lucas’ situation was both, but my point focuses on the macro.
Third, and follow with me here, if we can literally win most games if we are missing “any KU player” as you correctly suggest, then why in the world would we play arguably our two worst players — ever? When we have our two highest ceiling players, according to Self, on the bench?
Again, your statement is the exact purpose of my question. Traylor is not indispensable. And as such, as the worst or second worst rotation player, why play him at all?
See, I answered your question because it doesn’t really concern me where your line of thought takes us. You, and the others here who illogically defend the Traylor/Lucas decisions, refuse to answer when I have asked questions – questions that move such “thinkers” into a corner. It’s why you and the Traylor/Lucas defenders won’t answer.
I asked this question earlier, before the season, and I’ll ask it now – based on performance, if we had to lose one current KU rotation player for the season, who would you choose?
That’s my point. It’s the macro discussion on playing time, and why playing either Traylor or Lucas big minutes right now makes zero sense when you have two guys on the bench that need the minutes to develop.
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With all due respect, your answer is even more disingenuous than your original question. First, you try to word your question as more generic than specific, but it is abundantly obvious that your point is/was that Traylor would not have been missed and should not be playing. Believe it or not, WE GET IT. Like I said, most every other players could have missed the plan and KU would have still won…so what is the point of citing Traylor specifically?
The point is that you are not the coach at KU and you have the luxury of being a Lazy Boy PG…after the fact. Coach Self has to evaluate every player under all circumstances and decide on playing time after he has all the facts in. Before the WUG most of us would have thought that Svi and not Selden would be the stud at KU but we saw it otherwise. Many players are great in practice and not so much during games and other are not that good in practice and excel at game time. Coach Self’s and staff job is to evaluate ALL players under all condition and based on that data make decision going forth, and this is exactly what he has done; now he has a much better idea of how much and when to play the different players and how to tweak the lineup when the game plan is not going as planned. You can only go so far using past experience for players. You know that players do change during the off season, some dramatically…right?
As he and many other coached have indicated, they like to get to the meat of the schedule and have a lineup of no more than 8 players. This by no means indicates that thy will play only 8 players, only that those players will be the core of the lineup and the rest will play on an “as needed” basis…and this is exactly what he is doing.
Maybe you should lay back, relax and let Coach do his job, he does it better than most everybody else and you probably would enjoy the sport a lot more.
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You can’t finish a story with 2/3 of the story yet to come. The season is a process- not an event. I think this team transforms into a national contender that will have a very good shot of winning back to back championships the next two years. I say keep an open mind, and this team could end up better than any of us could imagine.
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@JayHawkFanToo bu we are FANaticS, so we comment, argue, complain and cheer!
I think HEM’s point can’t be downplayed. Mari playing time now, comes at a cost that, many of us fear, will be payed later at greater consequence than an early season game against inferior quality apponents.
On top of that, the PER stats he quotes tend to make the case about actual contribution of players on the game and those tend towards Mickeson, Bragg and probably a lesser extent Diallo at this point.
If experience is important, and no one disagrees that it is, then early season games should focus on getting your more talented, but less experienced players more experience in game situations.
But you are right, Coach gets to see the whole picture at both practice and game situations and has to make the call as to where maximum improvement can be made and then live with the results. Truth is us FANaticS “live and die” with those results too.
Merry Christmas all and Rock Chalk.
Can’t wait to see Tuesday’s game and see how we do against the length of our opponent.
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@JayHawkFanToo Again, you don’t answer the questions posed. We know why.
And you don’t follow along too well. Self is giving valuable, on the road, hostile environment playing time to a low ceiling, low talent player – instead of injecting our higher talent players in crunch time minutes, in that situation – in a situation you admit we would have won without Traylor. Traylor and Lucas, on the front end, are costing this team on the back end. Every minute they play in lieu of our higher talented players costs us. Why? Why leave Diallo and Bragg on the bench? Why pass up (again) an opportunity to provide these players the valuable experience the Self says was the deciding factor in playing Traylor? All as @Bwag said above.
Selden and Traylor? Now you’re getting comical. I mean, more than normal. You actually compare an NBA level talent to Traylor? A top 15 player to a top nothing player? You’re hopeless. And before you act with indignation like you regularly do, and go circular in the discussion – when you use Traylor in one paragraph, and then go to the next paragraph citing Selden – saying “players do change during the off season, some dramatically” – that implies that you are comparing the two. So yes, you are suggesting that Traylor could improve dramatically. That’s just anticipating your typical response.
So you sit here today saying Traylor could improve by leaps and bounds, huh?
As @Bwag stated, look at the PER. Traylor is still the worst of the rotation players, even after Tuesday’s game. Selden, last season, was 11.9. Now he’s at 25.0. Traylor last season? 12.7 – ugh. Now, 15.5. Same cloth. Diallo and Bragg are both 33% or more better from a PER perspective than Traylor, if it matters to you (which I know it doesn’t).
And remember, when Traylor improves a little from last season to this season, he’s still a poor player.
Again, you throw out this disingenuous thing. I say what I think. I’m not hiding or shirking from anything. Yet you are too insecure to answer questions posed because you understand the implication of your responses.
And when you say lay back and let coach do his job, you mean the same coach that admitted that I was right and he was wrong last season? That’s the coach I assume you mean.
We had lots of discussions where you angrily defended Self, that he knows best, the same baloney. Now, he admits:
Bill Self - “I do think we need to shoot a higher percentage of threes. I do think we need to play to our strength, which is shooting the basketball.”
Bill Self - “Last year, we kept trying to force it to become something we probably weren’t.”
I know these quotes are painful, and I would not expect you to act with humility, or be contrite. Others might be. Until then, please remind me to throw them in your face any time you want to suggest that we should blindly buy what Bill Self is selling because he is Bill Self — which is all you do.
I challenged you last year to tell me something substantively that you disagreed with Self on. You remained silent. I assume that remains the same.
Here’s another question you could answer – name me one other offensive move that Traylor has other than driving to his right from the free throw line? I mean, that he has perfected in 4 plus seasons in a Kansas uniform. You have 30 seconds.
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@HighEliteMajor Just drop the holier than thou, I’m smarter than you crap. That’s why people call you disingenuous. You make your points in ways that you come across as a smug, arrogant, a-hole who assumes he’s the smartest man in the room. Try showing some humility instead being a condescending jackass to people.
Whether or not the way I’m characterizing you right now is truly your intent or not, that is the tone that comes across on here and it doesn’t accomplish anything productive to try and prove you know more than Self.
For someone who claims to agree with 90% of what Self does, you sure as hell critize him for anything that doesn’t line up with your opinion and appears to be way more than 10% of the decisions Self majes you take issue with. I haven’t read your macri/micro thing yet, but I can make a pretty reasonable guess what’s in it. I might be reaching here, but I would guess you didn’t talk your opinion vs. Self’s.
We all know you live in the macroverse of player development at the expense of a few more losses throughout the season. We also know Bill Self lives in the microverse of trying to win every game at the expense of player development at times. Your criticism of Self for having a different view and approach to coaching philosophy is like a Christian expecting a Hindu to live by Christian teachings and then critizing the Hindu for not living up to Christian standards.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I disagree with HEM on a number of topics. But where does this come from?
Some posters become emotionally charged with his posts and get personal.
I don’t know HEM personally but I usually read everything he has to say. His statements are usually littered with statistics and none subjective points. How one chooses to interpret and value the statics might be, but not the statistics themselves.
This is usually how a HEM post goes:
-Outlines the problem with Self or a player* -Writes his position on Self or a player* -Gives facts or statistics to back up his opinion* -Then restates his opinion. *Opposing posters replies: -Do you know more than Self? -Traylor is a great leader and brings energy. -You’re always so negative. *HEM replies asking to prove him wrong. *opposing posters -You’re arrogant -You’re stubborn -Self is smarter.
You get the idea. The moment when you have to get personal when talking about facts, you have officially lost and might want to rethink your position. But this is a trend whenever HEM posts. Facts against personal attacks. It’s sad to see.
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@JhawkAlum and HEM doesn’t get personal? Reread the last post, one example, “you’re hopeless”. I’m not going back to his posts, but I’ve seen many condescending statements. But then again, I could care less about what he thinks.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Oh Man, some harsh statements here
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Can’t we all just get along? Let’s accept that we all have the ability to act like asshats and stop this instance of that act. Or if we’re not going to stop, let’s not take it personally when people get personal… or if we’re going to take it personally, then let’s accept that we’ll take it personally but that this is a well-traversed point plotted on the same old hyperbolic curve starting at an instance of asshattery and ending in reconciliation and inwardly chuckle that we are creatures of habit… or… I don’t know… Next!
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@Crimsonorblue22 From what I have read, I have seen very few personal attacks. But if you read it, I’m not doubting it.
And he has done condescending remarks and even goes passive aggressive. But I have seen posters take it to another level when you call out the character of someone.
I know HEM doesn’t need anyone to “have his back” since he is articulate enough to respond for himself so I will stop and let my upvotes speak for themselves!
I truly respect what you have to say on this site and you are one of the pillars of this great site!
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Hey, did anybody see "Tucky and Louie? We’re going to beat Tucky’s ass.
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Did everybody get what they wanted for xmas? I wanted us to beat SDSU, so mission accomplished. I have about 5 lbs of the best pulled pork ever made, so I’ll be in hog heaven for the foreseeable future. My team is 10-1, and we should be undefeated. My team is a dynamic scoring juggernaut, with great, amazing guard play. We’re ranked 2nd in the nation. Still, we can be better…much much better…especially if we can somehow get our incredibly talented freshmen more into the flow of the game.
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@JhawkAlum Thank you very much for your post. Folks that post such negativity are really just a minor distraction. I do appreciate your comments.
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@KUSTEVE Yeah Jethro we dang sure did…I got a new Stihl chainsaw & Santa brought mama a stick o’ candy & sack o’ nuts…
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@KUSTEVE did granny or Jed make the pulled pork? Sounds delish!
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@Crimsonorblue22 My sweetie is a great cook. That roast looked just like a brisket when it was done. It just tastes amazing.
