Coach cal
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This is 3 year old story based on an informal (off-the-record) poll by Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider.
Every other ranking has (had) Donovan as top 3 and this one has him as #8?
I believe a dislike for or bias against Cal has him that low on that particular poll; if the coaches would have to identify themselves, there is noway he comes out #16. Just my opinion.
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great post!
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@justanotherfan Exactly. Self’s teams (specifically in '10 and '11) have a tendency to freeze up in the tournament and appear lackadaisical. Calipari seems to have them focused for the tournament, and does a better job of that than Self. I don’t mean to compare the two, but sometimes it is good to evaluate how others are achieving success in order to better ourselves.
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@JhawkAlum Bam! Well said.
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@JhawkAlum Excellent post. The negative infatuation with Cal, UK, Duke, etc., amazes me sometimes. Maybe our inferiority complex has to do with Duke’s and UK’s national titles, you know, the ones Self apologists say are luck, a roll of the dice, etc.
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@JhawkAlum And they will reek of jealousy when we beat them this year.
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@KUSTEVE Skal or no Skal, They’re coming to AFH, which will be absolutely bonkers in there! Plus, we owe them one too so its a revenge game in our house. Our guys better bring it and show no mercy. Im betting they will.
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I personally don’t believe that we are infatuated with UK or Duke or UNC just because we talk about them; that is silly. The KU and UK programs (and also UNC and many others) are in many ways inexorably intertwined. The father of UK basketball, Adolf Rupp and their latest and best coach, Calipari, both got their starts at KU and are part of the KU Coaching tree legacy, in the same way that former Jayhawk Dean Smith, the father of UNC basketball and the current Coach, Roy Williams did.
More recently what happens at UK and Duke and UNC recruiting an otherwise affects KU and the same is true the other way around, since all these programs go after the same top players and the player they get is one we will not and vice versa. So it is natural that in the course of discussing KU basketball, the other schools will also be addressed. This by no means indicates that we are infatuated with those school or that we have an inferiority complex. If that would be the case, then a similar case can be made about the other schools since their forum are not that different from our little forum and they have as many or more posters that constantly criticize their own coaches than we do. The adage…the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence…seems particularly appropriate in this case since the tendency is to want what we don’t have and take for granted what we do have…
Stepping down from the soap box…:)
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@JayHawkFanToo Talking and comparing is fine. But when our success equals putting a middle finger to Kentucky, then we are most definitely developing an inferiority complex. Or when our failures gets compared to UK’s success.
Do you know what the difference between UK fans and KU fans? Kentucky couldn’t care less about what the Jayhawks do. Aside from the usual banter of “Your team sucks”, UK is busy talking about UK. Same with Duke. When Duke lost in the first round in 2012, you didn’t see them looking at our National Championship runner up and complain. Sure, they complained. Not because of how well UK and KU did that year, but because they are Duke.
But for some reason, we cannot achieve success or experience failures without bring up UK. This thread was talking about a story of Cal and turned into yet another pissing contest on coaches and whose better. And that discussion is not uncommon.
To make my point, I challenge you go back and look at how many topics/comments get turned into talking about UK. Then compare them to how much UK talks about KU. You will see how much less they care/talk about us. That is why we have become a little brother.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s definitely because of their national championships. But I also believe that the tournament is a mixture of luck, getting hot, and health. A couple early losses is to be expected. But to only get to 2 final fours with the players Self has had, that must be a reflection on coaching.
Still love Self and wouldn’t want anyone else. I am proud he is a Jayhawk. But you cannot ignore the glaring results.
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@JhawkAlum Not at all a finger to UK, just to cal-the consensus of which says he has it coming for being all of what he is about…himself & little else.
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A true & valid case of crap vs UK would also have to include a very strong disgust for Rupp. Wouldn’t waste time to exhume the details & my memory isn’t that accurate on his multiple seasons of tainted wins, bogus NC’s, ineligible players, blatant bigotry, etc; & no one really cares anyway, but cal is the topic here & is really just something to talk about & nothing more. Certainly not an infatuation to most of us anyway, yet this is the type of chat that slow news in the off season produces.
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@JhawkAlum If I had so much time on my hands to read what UK or Duke fans talked about I might be looking for a bridge to jump off (JK) or some shine, or a varmint to shoot or something…pretty much anything to fill the void of complete & utter boredom.
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@JhawkAlum I get the point - we’re all poor sports because we lost, and we hate them. When we beat them, they’ll be poor sports, just like they were with Wisconsin. The only difference is our coach and players haven’t been poor sports, even if we have been among ourselves. When they lose, their coach and their players will be the biggest babies of all, along with their nutty fan base. My Kensucky buds have been unmerciful since the last match up. One dude added the 72-40 score to his permanent signature on his email, which i intend to duplicate with our winning score against them. I still hate the Squid. I still hope they lose every game the same way I have since the Seventies, when I started watching college basketball. Some things aren’t going to change, and I’m one of them.
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@justanotherfan Cant argue with that at all. Solid.
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I respectfully disagree with you. I occasionally go to Duke, UK, UNC and other programs fan’s sites when directed by a basketball link while researching on line and in my experience, they all have an analog equivalent of every and each one of our posters, Some forums have more knowledgeable posters and others have posters that are completely clueless…not a lot of difference really.
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“Do you know what the difference between UK fans and KU fans? Kentucky couldn’t care less about what the Jayhawks do. Aside from the usual banter of “Your team sucks”, UK is busy talking about UK.”
I used to read quite a bit on UK fan sites. And their fans, in comparison to what we have here, are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Heck… I think many in here could hold a better conversation about UK players and ball than UK fans can. They have very little of the bantering discourse we have. It’s mostly cheerleading stuff. And when someone challenges something about one of their players, coaches or anything Big Blue in a negative light, posters blast them out of there. Boring! Mindless!
In fact, I haven’t read any other university forum where participants analyze and question things like we do on this site. That is what makes this site special… lots of great sharing of info on everything KU… but also everything else! We talk about UK… but we also talk about WSU, B12 teams, Izzo, Coach K, and everyone else.
Cal makes an easy target, and pretty much ALL non-Kentucky D1 basketball sites blast Cal from time to time. I don’t think any non-UK fans appreciates Cal wiping out half the top notch recruits every year for another one of his “dream team” runs. It isn’t even envy. I know it isn’t for me. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again… if we ever get to where we operate like Cal, I’m outta here. Let him have his revolving door teams. It is starting to look silly… that they can’t own March Madness with all that talent. How many 7-footers?
I like to read KU material… but also material on other schools, coaches… players… fans… If Kentucky fans don’t want to know or chat anything about Jayhawk basketball… fine… They typically aren’t even well-studied for Wildcat ball, no need having them hack up our Jayhawks, too!
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@JayHawkFanToo Perhaps I have been on different sites. But it seems that we talk about UK unequivically more than what UK fans talk about KU. Unfortunately, I do believe we have a complex similar to what some Big 12 teams have with us. My opinion just very well be wrong. In fact, I hope I am!
But lets say I am right. That UK cares less about KU than we do about them. It is only that way because we let them. One of the biggest compliments as a fan is when another team knows just as much about KU then they do their own team. One example is a Missouri fan once listed all the mid majors that have been KU in the past ten years, yet could tell me who beat Missouri in their NIT losses and had trouble remembering who they lost to in the Big 12 that season. At that moment, I knew KU had gotten so far inside his head, that he became less of a fan of Missouri.
I am not saying anyone here is guilty to that extreme. But I wonder why we talk about UK more than any other Big 12 school (outside of KU of course)? ISU and OU are top 10-15 teams in the nation that have the potential to win the Big 12. And in my opinion, it’s because we hate UK more than they hate us. And that is never a good place to be in.
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@drgnslayr I agree that I have not seen very many sites that have knowledge of the game like many people do here. Most people here aren’t just basketball fans. They are basketball analyst. Which is why I enjoy this site and reading from people who know much more than I!
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@JhawkAlum That’s easy to answer imo. At least for me, one reason I keep tabs on them is because KU is #2 in all-time wins, right behind UK. That in itself will have people always comparing the two. Not to mention that the two schools are constantly battling over the top recruits every single year. Lastly I have a dislike for UK because of Cal. Just don’t like the way he does things and that draws my attention to them sometimes.
I definitely don’t think its a complex. Basically, UK has served as the college basketball measuring stick the past several years. If KU stacks up well against them then it usually means we have a shot at a title.
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@RockkChalkk On the surface, I agree with you. But it goes deeper than recruits and all time wins. If UK lost in the first round last year, would that have made you more satisfied than how our season ended? If not, than your right. But if you honestly search yourself and find that it would have lessened the sting because UK lost, I would say you are running a dangerously close line to how Missouri or KSU feels about us. And they are, without question, filled with jealousy and have an inferiority complex.
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@JhawkAlum Ewww, that’s a slap in the face!
. But you are exactly right about my kstate friends(?) they find more joy in a KU loss than a kstate win!
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Again, we talk about UK, at least I do, more in relation on how it affects KU and no because I want to trade places with them. I grant you that some posters who strongly feel a NC is the only goal might have indeed have the envy you mentioned; in fact some would trade places with UConn, a program that has more ups and downs than a roller coaster, I am not one of them and I believe most posters are not either.
If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State? a case could be made for these and other teams but if you look at the most consistent program, then KU is at the top…UNC, UK, Uconn have all missed the Tournament in recent years, but KU has been the model of consistency. There seem to be only a handful of unanimous selections and those become our natural rivals and so it is logical they are cited in our threads. Again, it does not mean that we envy them or that we hate them, it simply means that what they do affects our program in the same way that what KU does affects the other programs… Go to any of the discussion/comment section on the ESPN website when a KU-UK related topic is discussed and you will see UK fans coming out of the woodwork to attack KU, a lot more so than KU fans attacking UK…
Like I said, it might seem to you that we cave in to UK or other top programs but if you go to UK or the Duke or UNC fan sites, you will see they do as much if not more than we do…it is just the way it is with all top programs…of course MU does not even belong in the same conversation since they have achieved…well, nothing.
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I do not envy Kentucky. I respect the program, just like I respect Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, etc. all who have some great hoops history.
I look at all of the programs around the country because I think it helps inform our discussions here.
For example, I am an attorney professionally. I am always paying attention to what other people in my profession are doing and what is successful for my own professional growth. Is there a way to do things better? What are the best techniques? What is successful?
I look at KU hoops the same way. UK has been successful the last few years and it’s more than just pure talent acquisition. So I want to look closely at what they have been doing to go on this run, just like I looked closely at what UCLA was doing when they went to three straight Final Fours 10 years ago, and what Florida did to develop that back to back core.
If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.
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“If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.”
Very good statement! One we need to remember!
“If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State?”
I hate to say this… but I’m not sure Kansas is on that list of top 5 programs when talking to other D1 sports fans across the country. Obviously, we consider ourselves top 5. And I know a big chunk of media has us up there pretty high. But fans… I’m not so sure.
I think our B12 winning streak has done miracles for our reputation around the D1 nation. I’m not trying to open a can of worms with those who want to compare the streak with NCs. But seriously… we’ve been picking up some steam the past few years and I doubt most of that steam is leftover moisture from '08. And our runner-up '12 didn’t hurt us, but didn’t lift us dramatically.
I think it is time we win another NC. If we can do it this year while adding another year to our streak, we will get a definite bump in prestige.
I talk D1 hoops to many people, most are not Jayhawk fans. I probe for info on where these people have Kansas on their list. In the D1 fan world, I believe we are a top 10 team, but marginally top 5. If I had to put an exact number on it, I’d say we are 6 or 7.
Funny… when I talk “Big 12” I hear just as much focus on Texas as I do Kansas. Maybe because we suck so bad in football… Football notoriety impacts basketball, too.
Like I said above… I hate to say this!
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@JayHawkFanToo I am not attacking and hope that I don’t come off aggressive to you because you are more knowledgable than I. But it seems like some of your points, though valid, are not a part of the discussion.
“Go to any of the discussion/comment section on the ESPN website when a KU-UK related topic is discussed and you will see UK fans coming out of the woodwork to attack KU, a lot more so than KU fans attacking UK” I have witnessed this and agree. UK fans seemed to have more bandwagon/cheerleading fans like @drgnslayr has noted. But an article based on the two teams is different than this open discussion site that we bring up material that interests us.
“Again, we talk about UK, at least I do, more in relation on how it affects KU and no because I want to trade places with them.” That statement are what good fans should do! We play UK this year again, and looking at our team and how we’ve played and analyze what the future game might hold. But the problem a lot of statement on UK aren’t about “affecting” KU but rather how it “reflects” KU and their accomplishments. An example is above in this thread earlier. It started off how we feel Cal has done with his talent but turns into a comparison on how Self compared with Cal has done with talent.
“If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State? a case could be made for these and other teams but if you look at the most consistent program, then KU is at the top.” Again, I agree! I love how we are always in contention and usually have the talent to keep up with anyone. I would hate being Uconn that has years where they know they don’t have a shot in their conference, yet alone a national title. Or Louisville who has been very tough lately, yet doesn’t have the tradition rich program KU has.
“…but if you go to UK or the Duke or UNC fan sites, you will see they do as much if not more than we do.” Now that is something that I like to hear! I must have visiting the wrong ones. Which ones do you go to? I would love to visit and see how they view their team to get a more in-depth look.
But I will restate my question. This year was a very bitter pill to swallow. If UK lost in the first round, would it soften the sting? If everyone says no. If everyone thinks that a loss is a loss and no other team losing affects us, than I happily stand correct. But if you honestly answer, and the answer is yes, than you are basing our success/failures off of another team.
Again, I hope I did come off aggressive, just putting in writing what is going through my mind.
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Yours statements and tone are just fine and I have no problem with them; I like that we can say what we think in a polite manner. I believe we both make points that some other posters will agree and disagree with, but at the end of the day, we all leave knowing a little more than before…that is a good thing.
Like I said, I don’t particularly troll other forums but occasionally an article will take me to one of those sites and often enough I am shocked by what fans from other programs post. Our forum is way above average in the content and depth of discussions, most others are much like the one we used to belong and whose policy change resulted in the creation of this forum. The ESPN discussions are particularly contentious with fans from every program, duking it out and surprisingly enough…or maybe not…KU fans seem to be on the milder side and UK seem to be the loudest and least knowledgeable and attacking (mostly) KU and other top programs is their only agenda; talk about an inferiority complex.
During the Gillespie era, KU gained quite a bit on the most wins race but lately UK has increased the gap…so yes, every UK loss is enjoyed, not because they lost, but because it places us one win closer to them and I really would like to catch them in the next few years., makes sense?
As long as Cal is coaching at UK, just by virtue of the raw talent he “recruits” every year, UK is guaranteed to get at least 30 wins every season and with some coaching, even more…and until the law catches up with Cal I hope they lose as many games as possible because it allows us to catch up and zoom past them sooner…otherwise I could not care less.
I will try to remember to save the link to some other sites next time I land there.
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@justanotherfan “If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.”
You stealing all my lines man? Lol
