Coach cal
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@justanotherfan There is the first round NIT loss as well. Lots of coaches could have produced that.
I’m not saying that year carries more weight than a successful year, but it shouldn’t be ignored.
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@justanotherfan Meh. The stuff about turning lower ranked guys into 2nd round picks isn’t all that impressive to me. Getting drafted in the 2nd round basically just means that you’re one of the top 30 seniors in the country. The kids leaving early typically do so because they are a projected 1st rounder. There isn’t much of a difference outside of the top 30 kids in each class, so the guy ranked 75 is not really much better than the guy ranked 35 so it isn’t uncommon for a guy in that range to end up drafted in the 2nd round after 4 years of college ball in a major conference.
I think the better question is how many coaches out there would have won MORE than 1 championship the past 6 years with the teams he has had. My opinion is that he drastically has underachieved. He has basically had the #1 recruiting class almost every year, if not #1 then #2, and just one NC. Also, how many other coaches could have done better than a 1st round exit from the NIT tournament with the team Cal had that year? The answer is too many to count.
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Boy if Cal has underachieved then Self has drastically underachieved. It’s a crapshoot every year if your going by NCAA championships. To his defense he has made 4 Final 4’s is the last 6 years which is an amazing thing to accomplish.
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Someone says Cal can’t win with lower ranked guys. I post information showing that he has already done that at two other stops. Someone questions if he can turn low ranked players into NBA players. I post proof that he has done that.
And yet it’s meh to you.
As I have said on this site many times, I am a basketball fan (NBA first, college second) that likes to look at the whole picture, not just my favorite teams. The whole picture says that John Calipari is one of the best coaches in the country (easily top 5, likely top 3) and it isn’t just because he gets the best players. He won at UMass without top players, then got Camby and went to the Final Four. He won at Memphis without top players, then got Rose and went to the title game. He is basically in the Final Four every year at UK with top players (one Elite Eight loss, one complete flameout).
You say that many coaches could have bettered Cal’s first round NIT exit. That’s probably true. Many coaches probably could have done better than his low water mark with that team.
However, how many coaches go 35-3 with the Wall-Cousins group? How many can get the Brandon Knight squad to the FInal Four? How many win rings with the Davis group? How many take the Julius Randle group to the title game? How many get back to the Final Four and darn near run the table with last year’s group?
I bet there are 10-15 coaches that could replicate the results of any one of those seasons with those teams. I bet there are 5-7 coaches that could replicate the results of 2 or 3 of those seasons.
I doubt there is anyone that could have done all of that other than Calipari, Billy Donovan and maybe Coach K. The rest of the college coaching world is too inflexible to take three completely different groups to E8, F4, Title (like Cal did in 2010, 2011, 2012), completely collapse in 2013, then go to back to back F4’s again immediately afterwards.
KU has had a top 20 draft pick in each of the last 3 years on the wing. We have a single Sweet 16 to show for it. How many coaches have at least a couple Sweet 16’s in that stretch with that talent?
KU had Rush, Chalmers, Wright, etc in 2006 and lost in the round of 64. How many coaches could get to at least the round of 32 with that talent?
KU had two lottery picks in 2010. Lost in the second round.
KU had three guys drafted in 2011, including 2 in the lottery. Lost in the Elite Eight.
That means that 2010 team had four NBA players, plus Sherron Collins on it. That squad lost to Northern Iowa? Really? How many coaches could get to the Sweet 16 or better with that group?
The 2014 team had Andrew Wiggins on it, and couldn’t beat a Stanford team that did not have a PG on the roster.
Let me repeat that
The 2014 team had Andrew Wiggins on it, and couldn’t beat a Stanford team that did not have a PG on the roster.
I have said this before, and I will say it again. If Cal has talent, you can’t bet against him. You cannot say that about any other coach in Division 1 mens basketball.
Every coach has at least one season on their resume that’s just a real clunker. Very few coaches can bookend their clunker season with a pair of Final Four’s on either side.
Cal wins. He gets talent, he goes to the Final Four. That’s his history. That sums up his resume.
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Good response… and I stand corrected. Not sure how much of that he developed or was just, once again, a great recruiter by having an eye for talent. The only one of those guys I really recall was CDR. He never seemed to have an all-around game, but was a great scorer.
Cal may be a better coach than he projects. But there is no denying the rejection from his peers. I don’t believe they rank him anywhere near the top in Xs and Os.
I think I would ask UK fans if they think Cal has underachieved. Last year’s team was taller than most NBA teams, and he had plenty of experience, too, with the majority of his stack returning. I watched several of their games last year and they always looked flat. Definitely didn’t look like a fun team to play on. I would say Cal underachieved last year and I’m pretty sure most of the Big Blue Nation feels the same.
The only year of KU basketball I can ever remember where we didn’t win a NC and the fans were satisfied and felt like we overachieved was 2012. Finishing runner-up to a stack and without a single McDs AA.
I want to see Cal do that. Today. Not years ago when he wouldn’t have to play a stack. Today. We were edged out by a stack in 2012. It took a stack to beat us.
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UK should have won it last year with the team they had but thats the beauty of the tournament. KU should have won it in other years but one game is all it takes. I always wondered if the pressure to stay undefeated especially as they got to the Final 4 just was too much. If they had lost just 1 game it would have taken all that pressure off them. But one game UK didn’t get the lucky stick and bam its over. I’m certainly not saying they should have blatantly lost a game because they will still go down in history as one of the best regular season teams ever. Their league also didn’t do them any favors after they dismantled everyone in the non-con.
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@justanotherfan Dude, your drinkin too much Kentucky Cool-aid. Quit it.
Coach Self could match those stats with that roster, with his eyes closed.
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@justanotherfan Dude! The '14 Wigs / Embiid had two super green point guards! And started 3 freshmen! Meanwhile Stanford’s team were all upperclassmen.
Again, quit drinking the Kentucky Cool-aid. You are giving us all the impression that you are trolling as a closet Kentucky fan.
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@Lulufulu Cal has had inexperienced swell and still produces. You can’t deny that when Cal has talent, freshman or not, he gets the job done, something Self rarely does even with very talented teams. The reason is inflexibility. Unfortunately, that does not seem to be changing in the near future.
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@justanotherfan Yes its meh to me. I’m not sure what your agenda is here other than trying to get sore knees.
You said: “Someone says Cal can’t win with lower ranked guys. I post information showing that he has already done that at two other stops.” Win what? I’m not sure what you are saying. He didn’t win any championships at those schools (besides the NIT), his best season at UMASS was a Final 4 which was subsequently vacated. At Memphis his best season was a loss in the championship game but oh yeah, that season was vacated too. So take away the seasons that were vacated and his best result was the elite 8. Meh.
You said: “Someone questions if he can turn low ranked players into NBA players. I post proof that he has done that.” Actually, drgnslayr asked for evidence of him taking a 3 or 4 star player and building them into lottery picks which you subsequently posted evidence of guys getting drafted in the second round. Second round is not a lottery pick. So to my knowledge he hasn’t done that. Still meh.
You then proceed to fire off a bunch of comparisons to KU/Self which I did not mention anywhere in my response to you. My point was that I believe that many other coaches would have been able to do more with the players that Cal has started (not ended thru development) each season with. To use an analogy, if all the college coaches were in a big poker game, Cal starts each hand (aka season) with a full house. One would think he would win more times with the hand he was dealt than he actually does and I believe that many other coaches could do better than him with his starting hand. Since you seem intent on pulling KU into the discussion, I’d say Self normally starts off with a three of a kind type hand, and yes, I think he has generally underachieved lately with that too.
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@DinarHawk Agreed on the lack of flexibility point for Coach Self. Here’s to hoping he learned some of that and retained it from Korea.
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Not trolling at all. If you look through all my comments, you will see that I complain all the time that Self is inflexible with his schemes. That is my #1 criticism of him as coach. He does not adapt to his personnel and I think that has cost us a chance to win at least one national title (2010, when KU had as much talent as perhaps any year) and another bizarre flameout in 2014 when he should have pressed the heck out of a team with no PG.
Self won’t press his match up advantages, which drives me bonkers, especially because when guys get going, he doesn’t just keep going to them unless its in the post. The Oklahoma game at AFH this year is a perfect example. Oubre started that game out either 5-7 or 5-8, including like 4 threes. KU opened the second half by going into the post 4 straight possessions. Oubre went something like 8 minutes without attempting a shot at one point. I sat on my couch dumbfounded. Here’s one of the best college coaches in the country and he’s letting one of his three best players go without a shot for a basketball eternity even though:
- that guy is scorching hot
and
- his team is blowing a big lead
Things were thrown that night.
But I watch Cal and he goes to the hot hand over and over again. Against ND in the Elite Eight, ND tried to guard Towns with smaller guys and UK went to Towns on literally every single possession for at least six minutes in the second half. The only reason they stopped going to him was because they took him out to get a breather. Once he came back in, they went right back to him.
When have we ever seen Self look another coach in the eye and basically say “your guy can’t cover my guy, and until you change the matchup that’s where we are going?” I say never, which is how lesser teams can stay with KU. You eliminate inferior players by isolating them and then exploiting the matchup until either the matchup changes or you have overwhelming success.
KU has the benefit of being able to land some of the best talent in the country. As a result, someone has a huge matchup advantage every night for KU. You shouldn’t go to that advantage when you’re down 10 late in the game. That should be the gameplan.
All the X’s and O’s in the world don’t mean a thing if I’ve got vintage Michael Jordan and you’re guarding him with vintage Michael J. Fox. A good coach identifies that advantage and exploits it - repeatedly. I don’t need to draw a bunch of stuff on a board. I need to but utter five simple words
“Get the ball to Michael”
Cal has his shortcomings, part of which is that he is sometimes too willing to change and make adjustments rather than playing to his team’s strengths. I think at times he looks to let his talent take over instead of exploiting one matchup or playing to a specific strength.
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@justanotherfan Excellent analysis. Self should have two or three more final fours and possibly another title. He would rather lose early in the tournament playing his system then to change it to fit his personnel and possibly advance.
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@Crimsonorblue22 He’s simply a low class guy, imo. You would NEVER hear Coach Self talking that way, even if it was true. The Squid teaches his players to act like punks. That arrogant smirk on Randle’s face - the absolute smear by one of the Bobsey twins against Kaminsky after the Badgers kicked their ass … That’s what they learned from the Squid. How to be arrogant.
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“When have we ever seen Self look another coach in the eye and basically say “your guy can’t cover my guy, and until you change the matchup that’s where we are going?” I say never, which is how lesser teams can stay with KU. You eliminate inferior players by isolating them and then exploiting the matchup until either the matchup changes or you have overwhelming success.”
Gosh dang it… good job!
I do think when we used to run the hi/lo with a decent back-to-the-basket scorer, we sort of tried that. I said… sort of.
Maybe Cal’s sour NBA experience still left him with something most (or all) college coaches lack… the philosophy that winning is everything. College coaches have a philosophy built on educating young players. That (almost always) gets in the way of having a philosophy of just going for the wins. I’ve said for quite some time now that there is a basic philosophic difference between college coaches and NBA coaches… this is it.
On a scale, I put Self pretty close to the “college coaches philosophy” end. He always wants to teach, teach, teach. Yes… he has gone away from that for brief moments. When we had Wigs… he just cleared out for him and told everyone to get out of his way. In the league, you might see the same example but the star player would shoot double or so what Wiggins shot at KU. Self typically teaches “team basketball” and he expects to look at a stat sheet and see a bunch of assists every game and the scoring spread around. ALL NBA coaches want to just see one stat: Win! They could care less if one guy scored 100% of their points all season, as long as they are crowned NBA Champions. It just doesn’t work that way in D1.
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Cal may be a better coach than he projects. But there is no denying the rejection from his peers. I don’t believe they rank him anywhere near the top in Xs and Os.
Every ranking I have seen from analysts to reporters and from scouts to coaches universally have Cal in the top 5 and most in the top 3. I don’t like Cal but I have grudgingly admit that he can flat out coach…it is not the coaching but the other “stuff” that comes with the coaching that turns people off. Let’s not forget that Cal got his coaching start at KU under Ted Owens and Larry Brown.
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@drgnslayr I see what you’re saying, but over the years many posters have said the opposite: Self gives too few development minutes early in the season because he wants to win each game, or at least stay in his comfort zone.
Cliff Alexander is the exception not the rule: a player who was “educated” by sitting, even when his 80% effort was more productive than the 99% effort of the guys he watched. Self usually plays the guy he knows he will win with, while educating in practice.
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Calipari voted the 16th best “X’s and O’s” coach by his peers - and this writeup is from Cal’s “girlfriend”, Mrs. Tyler Thompson!
I thought this writeup was interesting…
Critical Coaches: Who is perceived to be the biggest cheater in the sport?
Who would have funked it? Cal got more than a third of the votes.
I’m talking about who scores the points. We typically look good on paper. A zillion assists and well-distributed scoring. That doesn’t always guarantee wins. I think we usually don’t focus on a player having a hot night and taking over. If we find a weakness in a defense we don’t usually continue to attack that one point, unless it is back-to-the-basket scoring close to the rim. NBA ball feels very different. And you’ll see coaches calling a timeout because one guy on the other team scored 3 baskets in a row. They have to change things up to stop him immediately or the other team will continue to take those points.
But then… the NBA is full of top notch, experienced players that are also capable of scoring every time. Maybe it isn’t all about the coaches. The players have something to do with it, too.
I agree with you on Self not giving enough developmental minutes. But a college season is less than half as long as a NBA season. Minutes are in short supply.
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If we find a weakness in a defense we don’t usually continue to attack that one point, unless it is back-to-the-basket scoring close to the rim. NBA ball feels very different. And you’ll see coaches calling a timeout because one guy on the other team scored 3 baskets in a row. They have to change things up to stop him immediately or the other team will continue to take those points.
This is brilliant and what I have been trying to say for a while. However, I think some players are capable of scoring against certain matchups very consistently in college. I also think it prevents a team from maybe leaving a one dimensional player on the floor against you.
Let’s think back (painful as it is) to that Northern Iowa loss. Ali Fa-whatever killed us in that game. He had a spectacular game. Played 31 minutes, hit 4 threes and just generally burned us every time we tried to do something. UNI played some zone, but they played quite a bit of man. So who was Ali covering? For most of the day, it was either Henry or Taylor because they knew he couldn’t handle Sherron. So please tell me why Tyshawn attempted 6 shots and five of them were threes? Ali had zero fouls in that game. ZERO. This guy played 31 minutes, killed us on the other end and at no point did we attack him on the defensive end? Really?
Ali deserves credit for playing as well as he did, but there’s no way we should have let him stay on the court. Make them decide if he’s worth playing 31 minutes for his offense while acting as a traffic cone on the other end. Don’t let them hide a guy that could (and did) end up costing you the game. Punish him. Again, Henry and Taylor took a combined 12 shots (12!) and of those 12, nine were threes. That’s not testing the suspect defense. That’s letting them off the hook.
Tyshawn and Xavier couldn’t have gotten into the paint at least a few times instead of firing threes? And if they did, doesn’t that shift the outcome of that game, either by forcing Ali to the bench in favor of a better defender (and lesser offensive player) or by conceding some buckets for KU to keep their offense going. We lost by 2. If we can cost them a couple offensive possessions because Ali plays 25 minutes instead of 31, or Ali plays 31 but gives up a couple more good offensive possessions for us, we win that game (and maybe that clears the way for a title because that squad was loaded).
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I totally agree!
I know college guys are young… but they’ve been playing their entire lives (except for a few guys like JoJo), and they should know how to execute. Sure college ball is harder than HS… but these guys have been stepping up their game constantly as they age.
I think it all starts for these guys in practice sessions. If they are slacking off, does a coach rip them a new one?
When we call a time-out because our defense has collapsed, do the guys come out of the time-out with more vigor and know more what to do?
I’m just not sure of the culture around these kids today. Back in my day, a player knew every game in D1 was part of his legacy. A legacy he would be consumed with in his memory forever. A legacy that everyone around him will remind him about it for the rest of his life. A legacy where you hope you can be proud of your accomplishments down the road, especially when you raise a family and mentor children. Is this all gone? Do most D1 players think about this stuff today? I’m not going to say “no” but I’m not going to say “yes” either.
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I made a commitment to stop talking about UK awhile ago. I have tried to stay away from this one but I can’t hold it in any longer.
For the love of everything that is holy, lets stop being the little brother of UK!
It’s like Duke and Kentucky are going at it for dominance and we sit on the sidelines saying “Hey! Look at us too!”
The original post about Cal was alright. We can see his arrogance and poke fun. Great. But why should it reflect KU when UK does well or vise versa?
UK is on a great run and Cal has made the right coaching moves, and we turn it into a pissing contest on how well Self would have done with that talent. Would he have achieved greater? Or would he have underachieved because he is to rigid? WHO CARES! Their success doesn’t take away from ours, and their failures doesn’t add to our season.
KU wins the world games and we reek of jealousy when one of the first comments is about UK. And when UK made it to another final four, we complain of our situation in light of UK.
Remember how little and dumb Missouri sounded when their season magically became better after KU got bounced early in the tournament? Like it added wins to their season total? That is what we are beginning to sound like.
We have all been frustrated every year since 2012. But for heavens sake, we are a blue blood program, the second most winningest program, and are constantly a 1 or 2 seed in the tournament. We should not accept early exists from the tournament, but not because UK has been successful. But because we are Kansas and we don’t need to compare ourselves to anyone.
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This is 3 year old story based on an informal (off-the-record) poll by Jeff Goodman, ESPN Insider.
Every other ranking has (had) Donovan as top 3 and this one has him as #8?
I believe a dislike for or bias against Cal has him that low on that particular poll; if the coaches would have to identify themselves, there is noway he comes out #16. Just my opinion.
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great post!
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@justanotherfan Exactly. Self’s teams (specifically in '10 and '11) have a tendency to freeze up in the tournament and appear lackadaisical. Calipari seems to have them focused for the tournament, and does a better job of that than Self. I don’t mean to compare the two, but sometimes it is good to evaluate how others are achieving success in order to better ourselves.
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@JhawkAlum Bam! Well said.
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@JhawkAlum Excellent post. The negative infatuation with Cal, UK, Duke, etc., amazes me sometimes. Maybe our inferiority complex has to do with Duke’s and UK’s national titles, you know, the ones Self apologists say are luck, a roll of the dice, etc.
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@JhawkAlum And they will reek of jealousy when we beat them this year.
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@KUSTEVE Skal or no Skal, They’re coming to AFH, which will be absolutely bonkers in there! Plus, we owe them one too so its a revenge game in our house. Our guys better bring it and show no mercy. Im betting they will.
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I personally don’t believe that we are infatuated with UK or Duke or UNC just because we talk about them; that is silly. The KU and UK programs (and also UNC and many others) are in many ways inexorably intertwined. The father of UK basketball, Adolf Rupp and their latest and best coach, Calipari, both got their starts at KU and are part of the KU Coaching tree legacy, in the same way that former Jayhawk Dean Smith, the father of UNC basketball and the current Coach, Roy Williams did.
More recently what happens at UK and Duke and UNC recruiting an otherwise affects KU and the same is true the other way around, since all these programs go after the same top players and the player they get is one we will not and vice versa. So it is natural that in the course of discussing KU basketball, the other schools will also be addressed. This by no means indicates that we are infatuated with those school or that we have an inferiority complex. If that would be the case, then a similar case can be made about the other schools since their forum are not that different from our little forum and they have as many or more posters that constantly criticize their own coaches than we do. The adage…the grass is always greener on the other side of the fence…seems particularly appropriate in this case since the tendency is to want what we don’t have and take for granted what we do have…
Stepping down from the soap box…:)
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@JayHawkFanToo Talking and comparing is fine. But when our success equals putting a middle finger to Kentucky, then we are most definitely developing an inferiority complex. Or when our failures gets compared to UK’s success.
Do you know what the difference between UK fans and KU fans? Kentucky couldn’t care less about what the Jayhawks do. Aside from the usual banter of “Your team sucks”, UK is busy talking about UK. Same with Duke. When Duke lost in the first round in 2012, you didn’t see them looking at our National Championship runner up and complain. Sure, they complained. Not because of how well UK and KU did that year, but because they are Duke.
But for some reason, we cannot achieve success or experience failures without bring up UK. This thread was talking about a story of Cal and turned into yet another pissing contest on coaches and whose better. And that discussion is not uncommon.
To make my point, I challenge you go back and look at how many topics/comments get turned into talking about UK. Then compare them to how much UK talks about KU. You will see how much less they care/talk about us. That is why we have become a little brother.
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@HighEliteMajor It’s definitely because of their national championships. But I also believe that the tournament is a mixture of luck, getting hot, and health. A couple early losses is to be expected. But to only get to 2 final fours with the players Self has had, that must be a reflection on coaching.
Still love Self and wouldn’t want anyone else. I am proud he is a Jayhawk. But you cannot ignore the glaring results.
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@JhawkAlum Not at all a finger to UK, just to cal-the consensus of which says he has it coming for being all of what he is about…himself & little else.
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A true & valid case of crap vs UK would also have to include a very strong disgust for Rupp. Wouldn’t waste time to exhume the details & my memory isn’t that accurate on his multiple seasons of tainted wins, bogus NC’s, ineligible players, blatant bigotry, etc; & no one really cares anyway, but cal is the topic here & is really just something to talk about & nothing more. Certainly not an infatuation to most of us anyway, yet this is the type of chat that slow news in the off season produces.
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@JhawkAlum If I had so much time on my hands to read what UK or Duke fans talked about I might be looking for a bridge to jump off (JK) or some shine, or a varmint to shoot or something…pretty much anything to fill the void of complete & utter boredom.
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@JhawkAlum I get the point - we’re all poor sports because we lost, and we hate them. When we beat them, they’ll be poor sports, just like they were with Wisconsin. The only difference is our coach and players haven’t been poor sports, even if we have been among ourselves. When they lose, their coach and their players will be the biggest babies of all, along with their nutty fan base. My Kensucky buds have been unmerciful since the last match up. One dude added the 72-40 score to his permanent signature on his email, which i intend to duplicate with our winning score against them. I still hate the Squid. I still hope they lose every game the same way I have since the Seventies, when I started watching college basketball. Some things aren’t going to change, and I’m one of them.
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@justanotherfan Cant argue with that at all. Solid.
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I respectfully disagree with you. I occasionally go to Duke, UK, UNC and other programs fan’s sites when directed by a basketball link while researching on line and in my experience, they all have an analog equivalent of every and each one of our posters, Some forums have more knowledgeable posters and others have posters that are completely clueless…not a lot of difference really.
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“Do you know what the difference between UK fans and KU fans? Kentucky couldn’t care less about what the Jayhawks do. Aside from the usual banter of “Your team sucks”, UK is busy talking about UK.”
I used to read quite a bit on UK fan sites. And their fans, in comparison to what we have here, are not the sharpest knife in the drawer. Heck… I think many in here could hold a better conversation about UK players and ball than UK fans can. They have very little of the bantering discourse we have. It’s mostly cheerleading stuff. And when someone challenges something about one of their players, coaches or anything Big Blue in a negative light, posters blast them out of there. Boring! Mindless!
In fact, I haven’t read any other university forum where participants analyze and question things like we do on this site. That is what makes this site special… lots of great sharing of info on everything KU… but also everything else! We talk about UK… but we also talk about WSU, B12 teams, Izzo, Coach K, and everyone else.
Cal makes an easy target, and pretty much ALL non-Kentucky D1 basketball sites blast Cal from time to time. I don’t think any non-UK fans appreciates Cal wiping out half the top notch recruits every year for another one of his “dream team” runs. It isn’t even envy. I know it isn’t for me. I’ve said it once and I’ll say it again… if we ever get to where we operate like Cal, I’m outta here. Let him have his revolving door teams. It is starting to look silly… that they can’t own March Madness with all that talent. How many 7-footers?
I like to read KU material… but also material on other schools, coaches… players… fans… If Kentucky fans don’t want to know or chat anything about Jayhawk basketball… fine… They typically aren’t even well-studied for Wildcat ball, no need having them hack up our Jayhawks, too!
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@JayHawkFanToo Perhaps I have been on different sites. But it seems that we talk about UK unequivically more than what UK fans talk about KU. Unfortunately, I do believe we have a complex similar to what some Big 12 teams have with us. My opinion just very well be wrong. In fact, I hope I am!
But lets say I am right. That UK cares less about KU than we do about them. It is only that way because we let them. One of the biggest compliments as a fan is when another team knows just as much about KU then they do their own team. One example is a Missouri fan once listed all the mid majors that have been KU in the past ten years, yet could tell me who beat Missouri in their NIT losses and had trouble remembering who they lost to in the Big 12 that season. At that moment, I knew KU had gotten so far inside his head, that he became less of a fan of Missouri.
I am not saying anyone here is guilty to that extreme. But I wonder why we talk about UK more than any other Big 12 school (outside of KU of course)? ISU and OU are top 10-15 teams in the nation that have the potential to win the Big 12. And in my opinion, it’s because we hate UK more than they hate us. And that is never a good place to be in.
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@drgnslayr I agree that I have not seen very many sites that have knowledge of the game like many people do here. Most people here aren’t just basketball fans. They are basketball analyst. Which is why I enjoy this site and reading from people who know much more than I!
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@JhawkAlum That’s easy to answer imo. At least for me, one reason I keep tabs on them is because KU is #2 in all-time wins, right behind UK. That in itself will have people always comparing the two. Not to mention that the two schools are constantly battling over the top recruits every single year. Lastly I have a dislike for UK because of Cal. Just don’t like the way he does things and that draws my attention to them sometimes.
I definitely don’t think its a complex. Basically, UK has served as the college basketball measuring stick the past several years. If KU stacks up well against them then it usually means we have a shot at a title.
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@RockkChalkk On the surface, I agree with you. But it goes deeper than recruits and all time wins. If UK lost in the first round last year, would that have made you more satisfied than how our season ended? If not, than your right. But if you honestly search yourself and find that it would have lessened the sting because UK lost, I would say you are running a dangerously close line to how Missouri or KSU feels about us. And they are, without question, filled with jealousy and have an inferiority complex.
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@JhawkAlum Ewww, that’s a slap in the face!
. But you are exactly right about my kstate friends(?) they find more joy in a KU loss than a kstate win!
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Again, we talk about UK, at least I do, more in relation on how it affects KU and no because I want to trade places with them. I grant you that some posters who strongly feel a NC is the only goal might have indeed have the envy you mentioned; in fact some would trade places with UConn, a program that has more ups and downs than a roller coaster, I am not one of them and I believe most posters are not either.
If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State? a case could be made for these and other teams but if you look at the most consistent program, then KU is at the top…UNC, UK, Uconn have all missed the Tournament in recent years, but KU has been the model of consistency. There seem to be only a handful of unanimous selections and those become our natural rivals and so it is logical they are cited in our threads. Again, it does not mean that we envy them or that we hate them, it simply means that what they do affects our program in the same way that what KU does affects the other programs… Go to any of the discussion/comment section on the ESPN website when a KU-UK related topic is discussed and you will see UK fans coming out of the woodwork to attack KU, a lot more so than KU fans attacking UK…
Like I said, it might seem to you that we cave in to UK or other top programs but if you go to UK or the Duke or UNC fan sites, you will see they do as much if not more than we do…it is just the way it is with all top programs…of course MU does not even belong in the same conversation since they have achieved…well, nothing.
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I do not envy Kentucky. I respect the program, just like I respect Duke, UNC, UCLA, Indiana, etc. all who have some great hoops history.
I look at all of the programs around the country because I think it helps inform our discussions here.
For example, I am an attorney professionally. I am always paying attention to what other people in my profession are doing and what is successful for my own professional growth. Is there a way to do things better? What are the best techniques? What is successful?
I look at KU hoops the same way. UK has been successful the last few years and it’s more than just pure talent acquisition. So I want to look closely at what they have been doing to go on this run, just like I looked closely at what UCLA was doing when they went to three straight Final Fours 10 years ago, and what Florida did to develop that back to back core.
If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.
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“If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.”
Very good statement! One we need to remember!
“If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State?”
I hate to say this… but I’m not sure Kansas is on that list of top 5 programs when talking to other D1 sports fans across the country. Obviously, we consider ourselves top 5. And I know a big chunk of media has us up there pretty high. But fans… I’m not so sure.
I think our B12 winning streak has done miracles for our reputation around the D1 nation. I’m not trying to open a can of worms with those who want to compare the streak with NCs. But seriously… we’ve been picking up some steam the past few years and I doubt most of that steam is leftover moisture from '08. And our runner-up '12 didn’t hurt us, but didn’t lift us dramatically.
I think it is time we win another NC. If we can do it this year while adding another year to our streak, we will get a definite bump in prestige.
I talk D1 hoops to many people, most are not Jayhawk fans. I probe for info on where these people have Kansas on their list. In the D1 fan world, I believe we are a top 10 team, but marginally top 5. If I had to put an exact number on it, I’d say we are 6 or 7.
Funny… when I talk “Big 12” I hear just as much focus on Texas as I do Kansas. Maybe because we suck so bad in football… Football notoriety impacts basketball, too.
Like I said above… I hate to say this!
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@JayHawkFanToo I am not attacking and hope that I don’t come off aggressive to you because you are more knowledgable than I. But it seems like some of your points, though valid, are not a part of the discussion.
“Go to any of the discussion/comment section on the ESPN website when a KU-UK related topic is discussed and you will see UK fans coming out of the woodwork to attack KU, a lot more so than KU fans attacking UK” I have witnessed this and agree. UK fans seemed to have more bandwagon/cheerleading fans like @drgnslayr has noted. But an article based on the two teams is different than this open discussion site that we bring up material that interests us.
“Again, we talk about UK, at least I do, more in relation on how it affects KU and no because I want to trade places with them.” That statement are what good fans should do! We play UK this year again, and looking at our team and how we’ve played and analyze what the future game might hold. But the problem a lot of statement on UK aren’t about “affecting” KU but rather how it “reflects” KU and their accomplishments. An example is above in this thread earlier. It started off how we feel Cal has done with his talent but turns into a comparison on how Self compared with Cal has done with talent.
“If you think about it, which programs would you say are the top 5 programs in college basketball? KU, UK, Duke, UNC would likely be on everybody’s list but after that it gets more difficult…Louisville?, UConn? Virginia? Wisconsin? Michigan State? a case could be made for these and other teams but if you look at the most consistent program, then KU is at the top.” Again, I agree! I love how we are always in contention and usually have the talent to keep up with anyone. I would hate being Uconn that has years where they know they don’t have a shot in their conference, yet alone a national title. Or Louisville who has been very tough lately, yet doesn’t have the tradition rich program KU has.
“…but if you go to UK or the Duke or UNC fan sites, you will see they do as much if not more than we do.” Now that is something that I like to hear! I must have visiting the wrong ones. Which ones do you go to? I would love to visit and see how they view their team to get a more in-depth look.
But I will restate my question. This year was a very bitter pill to swallow. If UK lost in the first round, would it soften the sting? If everyone says no. If everyone thinks that a loss is a loss and no other team losing affects us, than I happily stand correct. But if you honestly answer, and the answer is yes, than you are basing our success/failures off of another team.
Again, I hope I did come off aggressive, just putting in writing what is going through my mind.
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Yours statements and tone are just fine and I have no problem with them; I like that we can say what we think in a polite manner. I believe we both make points that some other posters will agree and disagree with, but at the end of the day, we all leave knowing a little more than before…that is a good thing.
Like I said, I don’t particularly troll other forums but occasionally an article will take me to one of those sites and often enough I am shocked by what fans from other programs post. Our forum is way above average in the content and depth of discussions, most others are much like the one we used to belong and whose policy change resulted in the creation of this forum. The ESPN discussions are particularly contentious with fans from every program, duking it out and surprisingly enough…or maybe not…KU fans seem to be on the milder side and UK seem to be the loudest and least knowledgeable and attacking (mostly) KU and other top programs is their only agenda; talk about an inferiority complex.
During the Gillespie era, KU gained quite a bit on the most wins race but lately UK has increased the gap…so yes, every UK loss is enjoyed, not because they lost, but because it places us one win closer to them and I really would like to catch them in the next few years., makes sense?
As long as Cal is coaching at UK, just by virtue of the raw talent he “recruits” every year, UK is guaranteed to get at least 30 wins every season and with some coaching, even more…and until the law catches up with Cal I hope they lose as many games as possible because it allows us to catch up and zoom past them sooner…otherwise I could not care less.
I will try to remember to save the link to some other sites next time I land there.
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@justanotherfan “If you aren’t studying the success of your opponents, you are falling behind, whether in basketball or in any other profession.”
You stealing all my lines man? Lol
