Unexpected KU Precedents Continue Against Kent State
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@Jyhwk_InTigrtwn Great post, Same sentiments to you as well!
My big question of the moment is why is Coach Self unable to let go of trying to make this team into the 08 team? Its not gonna happen. We dont have the roster to play inside out every freeking possession. Kelly SHOULD have gotten 42 last night, broke Wigs single game scoring record.@jaybate-1.0 We do have more than one 40% trey gunner. Our coach just hasnt let them do it with enough frequency.
Final thought, right now I dont see this KU team making it out of the first round.
oh yah, final final thought. UNLV beat Arizona AT their place. They can certainly beat KU on Sunday.
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@Lulufulu it seems to me, that coach has given the green light to all wings and Perry to shoot the 3. If we develop our inside game, doesn’t that open up the 3?
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It was a true joy to find all of you again. After reading the alternative KU posts, someone was kind enough to let us know that there is a great site with great fans. It is a joy to read you guys again.
Bill Self is not on the ‘back nine’. Last year at this time, we were all worried about OSU and how well they were playing. KU loses to Villanova, gets destroyed by Florida and loses at home to SDS. KU then goes on a run-and wins on the road key Big 12 games and the title is in site again.
This title will be difficult-most have been. Texas has the perfect team to give us fits. ISU is solid and OU will be tough. One simply has to go back and see how Bill Self has fared against each of those coaches and teams. Hoiberg has the best case against KU. I would take Self vs Barnes any game-anywhere.
I watched KU beat Florida in Vegas with Julian Wright. That was a young team. All came back except Julian and we know the rest of the story. Enjoy this year and hope that we can keep the streak alive. Next year is shaping up to be one of Bill Self’s best teams.
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Glad you found us. Welcome. Hope you’re right.
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Coach, I absolutely hate it when you get pessimistic!
I am not a bonafide professional.
I get to be pessimistic out of ignorance.
You on the other hand have some obligation to hold our hands and say it will be alright!!!
Ah, but it IS alright.
We have The Legacy.
We have a great coach.
We have players worth loving and rooting for.
We have great fans.
No one has crashed the stock market yet.
Putin stopped the South Stream gas line under the Black Sea and partnered over land with Turkey and the west.
Women are still beautiful.
The private owners of The Fed are going to keep interest rates down awhile longer.
The world is awash in more oil and gas than it knows what to do with.
Scientists have decided it is okay to eat butter and use aluminum cookware, after all.
Every game from here on out is going to be somewhere we can watch it.
Happy New, Year, Coach, Happy, Happy New Year!!
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@jaybate-1.0 you seem, uh, “happy”? Ringing in the new year?
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No, no booze for me, if that’s the question.
Hung up the shaker about 25 years ago.
No addiction problem. Just nudged me closer to high blood sugar than I liked. Best thing I ever did.
But, hell, yes, I love New Years.
Ever since I was 10 and saved an M-80 from July 4th till the New Years and detonated it at 4 below zero in a huge snow drift, I have loved the holiday as much as any.
Happy New Years!
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How about you, are you already a little tight?
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@jaybate-1.0 I don’t drink either. I tried! I’d be sick for days. Happy new year to you. I’m watching suns and thunder on fox sports.
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@jaybate-1.0 funny, I’d be loose if I was drinking.
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Happy New Year to " all y’all".
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BACK AT YOU!
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Yes, me, too. But I was just using an old slang from the movies of the 1940s-1950s for fun.
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@jaybate-1.0 missed those!
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Tight may even have been from the 1930s. Regardless, I pick out a two decade period and a genre every year, or two, and try to watch movies from that era. I study the evolution of the mythology and camera techniques. Last year I watched westerns from the 1940s to 1950s without John Wayne or James Stewart in them to see what the lesser actors and directors were trying to do. The 1 million channels on cable, plus internet, plus TIVO make this easy and fast to do. This pic is probably from The Thin Man with William Powell and Myrna Loy. Get ta know ya legacies. It is necessary to know your present.
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@jaybate-1.0 Some of the best memories of my youth is watching movies with my father late Saturday nights after mom and my sisters (3 of them) were in bed. Pop had a tough upbringing and did a ton of things to get me prepared along the way. Anyway-I love old movies with the Duke-but my favorite without him is Alan Ladd in “Shane”. Is that on your list?
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Shane is one of my all time favorites. Alan Ladd and Jack Palance shooting it out. What could be better. The final scene is a real tear jerker. Actually one of the latest Geico ads is a takeoff of it. The one with the “words can hurt” and the guy hits his head on the “The End”.
Maybe KU could do something like what was done with Alan Ladd. He was a real heart throb but only about 5’4" or so. They would dig ditches so that the ladies could stand in them and be shorter. If we could only do something similar with Cliff and make him appear to be a footer.
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GREAT THREAD!!! Just got home after 11.5 hr drive from the Holy Land (Kansas btw)
Here’s a shot of Vail from I-70 tonite!
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Sorry to veer off topic on last post!
I’m in agreement w much of above. I know hcbs knows what he’s doing but he seems REALLY set in his ways. Before Kent State we had a great thread about how Alexander needed to play a minimum of 30 min. It made/makes complete sense to me. However, JamTray starts and gets a ton of unjustified minutes.
I’d start Cliff and Perry and sub Mickelson, Lukas and JamTray in that order.
I’d also start Svi over Selden.
Don’t know what to do w Greene.
We need to play outside in.
Shoot at LEAST 20 threes/game.
Blah blah blah…
RCJHGKU!!!
I’m done posting till next year
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Shane is an awesome movie. I enjoy watching all of the scenes that the background changes. The Tetons are covered with clouds, then someone else is shown and they go back and now the Tetons are cloud free. It happens all through the movie!
@colojhawk Welcome to our little KU cult. When you get a KU shaved into your forehead, or if you have no hair there, a tattoo at the same spot, give us a pic and you’ll be officially in.
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@VailHawk I predict that Cliff will soon earn a bundle of minutes. Indications are that he is struggling with shin discomfort, and has not fully recovered from the ankle sprain. Then, first minute off the bench he did not run the floor and execute with energy, so got the quick hook. His TIME is coming…and soon. Gotta hope that Bill does not read your Svi over Selden suggestion. The Guy might drop into coronary mayhem! I think most of us are right there with you on the BG issue. What the hell to do with him? I suppose he will squeeze out fifteen minutes of fame now and then…interspersed with five minute stretches of YIKES! Anyway, there are so many bright possibilities lurking within this squad that we are in for lotsa sunny mornings after. HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and all faithful Jayhawk buckets posters. ROCK CHALK!
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@jaybate-1.0 First color flick I ever watched was “Gunfight at the OK Corral” at the Uptown back in the 50’s. We rode the passenger train from the boondocks to Union Station & took the bus to my 75 yr old Aunt’s house at 31st & Forest. Another classic from that time frame was “Last Train From Gun Hill” w/ Kirk Douglas & Anthony Quinn Those were the days…seems to me we may have even paid the fare with plastic mill tokens.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
But I was just using an old slang from the movies of the 1940s-1950s for fun
Wanted to profess vocabulary ignorance in a post I made above where I referenced you - I was looking for a fun word to go with prolific and went with “pontificate” thinking that it just meant something along the lines of preaching the gospel. I didn’t realize it also negative connotations, surely not meant that way, I enjoy your posts!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yah, normally it does. Mason drives and kicks it out to the open wing for the trey. But, they arent doing that enough. At least that seems to be the general consensus on here. One I agree with.
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@VailHawk Thanks for sharing that Vail. I’ve never seen fireworks over a Mountain before.
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Greene. I read a number of posts about him above. Most of which refer to him leaving after this year. I doubt this. I think he is still a sophomore and will be a huge part of our team his junior and senior years. The guy is a 6’8 pure scorer. Just needs to figure out how to play defense and stay out of Self’s doghouse. I think us KU fans are a bit too quick to say “this guy is gone next year” as it has happened a couple of times recently with AW3 and CF. Both of those guys had similar strengths to Greene in that they are 3 point shooters. I feel there is more the Greene than just 3’s though. He can score in other ways and is obviously money from the FT line. His family has Kansas ties (not that this stopped CF) and I just feel he is still a year away from making it all come together. Remember when juniors and seniors were the guys getting time while freshman and sophomores had to sit and watch and learn? It was not that long ago. Releford, T Rob, Darnell Jackson, etc, etc, etc. Some guys just need a bit of time to figure it all out. Obviously I am in the minority but I still see Greene being a KU Jayhawk for 2 more years.
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The issue with Green is that he is one the more one-dimensional player I have seen in a long time. He can hit threes, when he is in the groove and can hit FT all the time; however, his defense and passing, or lack thereof, are a big concern. The question boils down to…does his shooting offsets his liabilities? At this time I would have to say than other than playing as a “designated shooter” on specific situations, his playing time will likely not increase, particularly with Oubre’s recent play.
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Greene is still his own worst nightmare. He helped us win at georgetown, and has hit numerous shots when needed. Then you have basically every other game and what do you get? His defense is his biggest liability and he’s playin 13 minutes a game because of it. Are the concerns valid that he might not be here next year, yes because we’ve seen recently that KU can’t go one year without some crazy off-season attrition. Would it be in his best interest, no he should continue to work hard because his jumper is NBA worthy.
Selden as I’ve said is seriously in a slump. He’s been in it basically his whole time here. His defense can be very good and his understanding of how Self wants things done is basically what keeps him on the court. If graham was available I bet we would see way more Mason and him on the court at the same time. Selden has to hit buckets, I’m tired of saying it but he doesn’t deserve 30 minutes a game if he can’t start making shots. Svi and Greene dont impact the game consistently enough yet to get minutes over wayne. These are the cards we are dealt. The only hope is that Oubre really takes over a big chunk of the scoring and we can live with the inconsistent offense from Selden. Hoping this slump he’s in is going to suddenly go away isn’t likely. I’ll eat all the crow if it was proven untrue.
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Thx for taking a minute to clarify.
The beauty of this medium is we get to make those clarifications.
I hope that our community over time will become more and comfortable with adding, subtracting, and correcting and apologizing, along with all the good cheering and moral support we lend each other. Extending these sorts of curtesies greatly increase ones joy at participating.
Rock Chalk!
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@JayHawkFanToo think we can add practices and wts in there too. We don’t know! I think he’ll get chances, if he’s going all out at practice. I heard he was smart, he sure does some bone-headed things! I swear I could play better D than him! Kinda funny!
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@globaljaybird
Oh, yeah, those were very good and the Uptown really was uptown once upon a time.
Back to flicks, its very personal what moves one and resonates with one. Up until the last two years, Randolph Scott was not my cup of tea. But then I found the Budd Boetticher westerns the he directed for Scott that were written by Burt Kennedy and it was like a light went on that I had been missing something very, very, very important in the westerns. I don’t know how, or why, it happened. I had looked at Boetticher and Kennedy’s work long ago, when I was trying to learn about screen writing, and though I appreciated their craft, their westerns did not thrill me at all.
But then two years ago, they did. AND IN A BIG WAY.
I believe what changed was my getting older and getting a bit disillusioned with the kind of movies made today, where heroes are so compromised. The themes of these westerns relit my love for movies and I watched and studied all six three times each and they have rekindled my love for movies generally.
Decision at Sundown (1957)
The Tall T (1957)
Buchanan Rides Alone (1958)
Ride Lonesome (1959) – also producer
Westbound (1959)
Comanche Station (1960)
I really think these six westerns rank as important contributions to our culture’s art of the 20th Century–they do for me.
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Brannen seems to some extent a casualty of the OAD approach to team building.
Brannen seems likely to be like EJ and Travis. His neural nets are probably a little slow reaching full maturity. This is a crucial dynamic affecting the rate at which all players in this age range arrive as players. No amount of PT, or “development work,” can compensate for neural nets not being fully grown in. If the net is not their, no matter how many reps one gets, there is nothing to burn in. Brannen seems to be doing lots of good things. But he also seems to be doing some bone head things. That is an indicator of incompletely developed neural nets.
Under the pre OAD approach, guys like Brannen could sit a couple seasons, sometimes even three with a redshirt, as Travis Releford did, and then we would watch them metamorphose suddenly between their third season and their fourth and fifth seasons. By the fourth season, with the neural nets fully grown in, all the wildness and unpredictability is gone. By the fifth season, they have polished all of the skills that take a year to work on, once you have the neural nets sufficient to burn in with a year of reps. It lead to incredibly competent players that you could count on game after game for a season or two.
But now, especially at the wing position that Brannen plays, Self drags in 1-2 OAD wings each season. And they have to play. And so whether Brannen ever gets a shot or not, will depend entirely on whether Self cannot sign 1-2 OADs each season.
Even if Brannen were to stay for a 4th season, or redshirt, for a fifth season, it would be very easy for Self to bring in an OAD and have to play him, regardless of how polished Brannen eventually became.
OADs HAVE TO PLAY, WHETHER THEY ARE READY OR NOT, OR THE OAD SPIGOT GETS VALVED TO OTHER PROGRAMS THAT WILL PLAY THEM READY OR NOT.
This apparent truth probably underlies why Self no longer throws rouge smoking jackets to guys at high traffic positions, like 2, 3, and 4.
By high traffic, I mean positions where he can realistically expect to drag in 1-2 OADs each season.
Why give a guy a red shirt and develop him, if you are going to have to play OADs ready or not?
As a result of having to play OADs, you really can’t afford to carry Red Shirts. You need all of your scholarship players contributing during the steep learning curve of the OADs you have to play. You have to have guys playing the 3 while Oubre is getting ready to, and then you have to sit them the rest of the season, for Oubre to play. You cannot afford guys on red shirt getting better. You need what little experience they have at the beginning of every season and then you have to shaft them with benching, because then you have to play the OAD/TAD.
Tie goes to the OAD.
Self made clear Brannen’s next best shot. Its is to come in and push TAD Wayne Selden for minutes. But notice that Self said we’ve got to get Wayne a little more productive by Svi and Brannen pushing him. Oubre is now our 3, unless he blows it.
Brannen is not competing for a starting 2 role. Brannen is being offered the chance to push Wayne to the point that Wayne plays well enough to keep Brannen off the floor permanently, too.
Brannen appears to be a smart young man. He appears to understand what is being done to him. Conner Frankamp understood the same thing. Conner and his dad just decided that that was not the best thing for Conner’s mental health and for his basketball playing future to fulfill that role for Self–to be a “pusher” of OAD/TADs with no chance to ever start consistently. That, I believe, was what Conner meant when he said he loved it at KU, but they just have so many guys here. That was code for Self has committed to basing the program on OADs and if one is not an OAD, then there is no other role on the team, if one is behind an OAD, and Self made clear that Conner was NOT a point guard, but a 2 guard, and so Conner would always have been a “pusher” for some OAD/TAD at the 2.
Brannen is in the position of being a “pusher” now. It is a thankless role for a scholarship player once highly recruited. Self is basically indicating he can be a “pusher” at the 3, or 2, as long as he stays at KU.
Brannen will play some.
But it will tend to be when he can “push” an OAD/TAD.
Frankly, if I had been Brannen’s advisor, I would have told him to transfer to WSU along with Conner. At WSU Brannen would get to compete straight up for a real starting position, same as Conner. He might not beat out his competition, but he might.
The fact is at KU, Brannen will never beat out an OAD/TAD for any position ever…even when the neural nets are grown in.
His only chance, Conner’s only chance at KU, too in the OAD era, would be for Self to fail to sign an OAD/TAD for him to “push.”
The collateral damage, as the Pentagon likes to call it, of the OAD/TAD phenomenon is brutal to other players.
Good as Frank Mason is, if Self brought in an OAD point guard, Frank would have to “push” next season, as surely as Brannen has to “push” this season.
And if Self brought in two OAD point guards next season, Frank Mason, good as he is, would be reduced to “pushing” two.
In either case, it would look like Frank were playing early, but what he would really be doing was buying time for the OADs to be ready.
Sad.
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@jaybate-1.0 pardon me, my neural net is still developing!! This year the OAD’s have not been starting. BG had a chance, he earned it and then he blew it off. If he was still scoring 17 pts, he’d be playing. Of course he needs to get to weights and play D. I get your point, but the best guy plays. If BG played like he did in his 17 pt game, he might be a TAD?? As far as CF goes, he defense was horrible and he couldn’t hit anything til the end. I’m w/Self about defense. Neural net is flaking out!
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@jaybate-1.0 In your reply to rehawk about all that is good I’m surprised you failed to mention your new traveling drawers you discovered this year.
And re old movies, my wife would be happy if the only channel we got was Turner Classic Movies. Last year for my birthday she treated me to the Christmas show and dinner at the WWII museum in New Orleans. (If you haven’t been you should put it on your bucket list.) But the dining area had posters of many actors and actresses from that era. She knew who all of them were.
And thanks to my new TIVO Roamio it’s saving every old western it finds for me to watch. At the rate its going I may never catch up.
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@brooksmd if you lived in ks you might have all winter to catch up. Crappy weather coming, good time to stay in and watch movies
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@Crimsonorblue22 That’s one reason I don’t live there anymore. Well that and my wife. lol Trying to get my sisters to move down here.
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If you are 23, or less, you are not thinking with a fully developed brain. There are gaps that no amount of reps will burn in. A partially developed brain may be able to do some things and not others. It varies person to person in terms of limitations. The implications of this are huge through out society, not just basketball in the OAD era. It will take our culture 50 years to even begin to deal with it meaningfully. Probably some Eurasian country will do so first. But the neuroscience is in on brain development. It is empirically verified. You may be a year ahead, or a year behind, but 23 is it.
Next, there are five classes of players in D1 now:
a.) OAD/TADs;
b.) pushers that will leave;
c.) pushers that will stay;
d.) OAFs; and
f.) walk-ons
Travis Releford was lucky he came before Self’s decision to cornerstone on OAD/TADs. It is probable that he would not have ever become more than a pusher. Self would have been through 4-5 OAD/TADs on the wings by his fourth season, when he was finally ready to play. And he would have faced an OAD/TAD his fourth and fifth seasons he would have had to be a pusher for. He would never have gotten the corner stone role his fourth, or fifth seasons to become the player he became under the old system. He would have been too busy pushing, at whatever positions on the perimeter that Self had an OAD that needed pushing.
Self had room for two pushers to committee at PG, because Self has not been able to land any OAD/TAD point guards, and his last pusher cum interim starter, Naadir Tharpe selfie-destructed. Frank and Devonte got those roles, until Self can get into the gravy train on OAD/TADs at point. That meant Conner, whom you are forgetting Self said would be starting some this season and play 20 mpg, apparently as a pusher at the 2, became the designated pusher at 2, and didn’t want to be that. It was good for Brannen and Svi that CF left, or they would have only seen duty pushing Oubre at 3. Right now, we would be hearing Self say Conner needed to push Wayne, because Wayne was not quite as productive as he needed to be.
What I am talking about is very unpleasant and yet it appears to be how it is.
Good young players that used to develop into some of our favorite full time Jayhawks have no place in the new system. They would just be pushers, never cornerstone starters.
Yes, there will be exceptions, like Mason right now, when Self has OAD recruiting blackouts at certain positions, as exists at PG this season, but very shortly most of the recruiting blackouts will be a thing of the past.
Self will get KU up to the 5 OAD/TAD standard very soon, or Self will move on for someone who can. Self does not have to swim against the current forever. He has the FU money. He has professional options. If Self and the powers that be in Big Shoes cannot come to a similar meeting of minds that Cal, K, Miller, and Donovan have, i.e., on Self getting his fair share of PetroShoeCo OAD/TAD, I believe that will be the end of Self at KU. That may even be what Big Shoe wants. Same with Rick Pitino, though Rick is probably near enough the end of the line he might ride it out.
We live in the age of the OAD/TAD pusher. And they’ve got to be able to push from year two on, or they are destined to transfer to places like WSU.
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I’m slipping. Travel drawers still rock. Another thing that rocks is a really cheap Aeron imitation being sold at Costco for a couple hundred bucks. I have tried everything in chairs over the years, from the ridiculously expensive to the cheapies and frankly have never really been happy. I came close for awhile with an old Grahl split back back in the late 1980s but it got too spendy for what it gave to replace it. Aaron’s started out too spendy, and they were better in conception than in actual use. But like I say, this cheap from Costco that my wife got me is really good. She bought me a spendie one before XMAS and I sent that one straight back.
One more thing I got this year that I love is a forge de Lagiole folding pocket knife. I have always been a devoted Buck 110 guy (just love the American scale, feel and function and would pay five times what they ask), but I finally decided I wanted a really slim folder for traveling. Benchmade makes great knives I have tried, but these survivalist folding knives with blades so sharp they cut diamonds have never been for me. This Lagiole is sharp and a bit hard to get used to the first few times you use it, because the handle is so thin. And it looks like something you might find on Pierre in a French whore house. But the thing really carries easy and comes out of the pocket smooth, and happily rides in lightweight travel pants without making a bulge in your pants like you’re too glad to see someone. Nice knife.
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@jaybate-1.0 maybe you should try one that will give you the bulge, like you are happy to see someone!
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Don’t need that.
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@jaybate-1.0 where do you put Svi?
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Self said it: his purpose, along with Brannen, from here on out is to push Selden.
Assuming he can ever establish his trey ball, I would most like to see him at 2.
But since it looks like Selden will be a 3-4AD, I’m not sure what will become of Svi.
A lot depends on why Svi can’t defend ball screens.
I am hoping he has been injured.
If he has been healthy, then his future at KU is probably as a pusher.
I cannot believe I am saying that, because I was enormously high on him early.
But I so far have not seen him play as if he were able to do much more than push and OAD.
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@jaybate-1.0 another question, still haven’t answered my ISU 3 pt shooting one. So if these brains are hit, concussions before 23, do you think they have a better chance to recover?
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Guess I missed your Q. Come again.
Haven’t seen research on early versus late brain injury. But brain injury is the gift that keeps on giving. Get it. You’ve got it for life.
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@jaybate-1.0 it was where you were talking about shooting 71 3’s. I asked if you knew how many ISU had shot these last 3 years.
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If this oad takeover is going to happen in full force then self will have to dumb down his system and completely change the complexity of it to make it easier for kids to come in and succeed. Do you think it would have taken Oubre this long to get a starting spot and look like a top 10 pick if he was on kentucky? I don’t think it would have, I think he would have been playing better already if it wasn’t for the demands that self puts on young players to learn so much in a short period.
Even cliff hasn’t exactly gotten comfortable yet and a lot of it has to do with the system self runs. If he wanted 4-5 year players that era has left this program because we have seen countless kids who could have benefited by sticking it out or getting a red shirt year. But that’s not how Coach is doing it anymore, he’s over recruiting at positions and repeating.
Right now we are recruiting the best that is out there. Ellis is a 4 year player, cliff is really a PF being asked to play the 5. If we get some combo of Bragg, Zimmerman, Diallo, Rabb, maybe Maker why would cliff stay even tho his stock has dropped considerably so far. He’s stuck behind a good but not great player who he has considerable advantages over in certain areas but would likely never beat Ellis out. Say 2 elite bigs sign and all of a sudden we have 6-7 bigs on the team and no system to maximize it.
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Studies are suggesting that early concussions (particularly those before the age of 16) are most dangerous. Some doctors suggest that if a high school student has a concussion, they should sit out an entire year (12 full months, not a season) to recover properly.
There have been some studies, though not large enough to be scientifically verified, suggesting that trauma before the age of 13 can be absolutely devastating, as the brain may be damaged to the point of non-development in certain areas. There is a possibility that early brain trauma may cause permanent, irreversible damage to the brain.
After the age of 18, the dangers begin to lessen because the brain is much more developed and brain mapping demonstrates that certain functions in the brain can or will re-route if damage occurs. With younger brains, the initial routes haven’t been fully established, so this re-routing may not be occurring.
As I have stated in other places, I had a concussion when I was in high school (about 2 weeks before my 18th birthday, for what it’s worth), so I have spent quite a bit of time researching and following concussion studies and the long term consequences. I got through college and graduate school just fine, so I think I am okay, but I do worry that my own brain has a ticking timebomb buried inside it that may just go off one day. As a result, I spend quite a bit of time doing logic puzzles, crosswords, sudoku and other brain games to see if I can stave off potential problems. I guess you could say I am trying to build some new roads for myself just in case.
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I totally agree with your post, and am also a victim of early concussions. My first two concussions happened at age 12, my first year of tackle football. In my first concussion I was knocked unconscious.
I suffer extreme cases of memory loss. Things come and go, and I am capable of temporarily misplacing vital memory, like the loss of family members’ names. This has been debilitating and frustrating.
I believe sports like football, before kids are mature enough, is just too risky.
Just my humble opinion.
