Unexpected KU Precedents Continue Against Kent State
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Lots of accurate observations -I really can’t add anything except my confidence in this years chances for another Big 12 title or deep run in March is not as high this year.
It was nice to see Oubre shine.
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@REHawk I understand your concern…Texas and ISU are playing better than we are. But, we should get better and I like our chances against just about anyone at home. “Amazed” if we win more than 1 of the 4 seems a bit extreme to me as I would never be amazed if we beat anyone at AFH (well, maybe this year’s UK team)
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@Crimsonorblue22 Is a frog waterproof?
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Think I’m kind of like everyone else in here… seeing bright spots and areas of darkness.
What stuck out at me the most in this game wasn’t Kelly’s high-octane performance (it stuck out second).
What stuck out most was Perry and how the team sinks or swims by Perry’s performance.
We were down by 6 in the first half, and Self totally got on Perry and he came out of a time-out and played with some energy. He didn’t do everything perfect after that, but he was able to get some hard-earned buckets, and that is when we made our move and never looked back.
What that told me is this team is following Perry. Even though Kelly was nailing every shot and stealing balls to boot, it couldn’t keep us up with the golden flash until Perry decided he was ready to play.
This is monumental, and I’m not sure it is a good thing. It’s good if Perry comes ready to play every night. But we all know he doesn’t have that reputation.
After one more game, we go into league play, and we need to win those first 3 games. These are games we should win (and must win) if we expect a shot at #11.
There is still a lot of slack in our play. We still don’t have an identity. Who are we? Who do we count on? What is our “bread and butter?”
On the positive, these games that pop up during our Christmas practice period often produce strange results. Self is in the midst of trying different things, pushing guys’ buttons, and teaching these kids more plays and strategy. In the midst of that, the results of a game can be unpredictable. We better just feel good that we won that one. For the millionth time now… we need to remember how young this team is.
I thought this was going to be Wayne’s team. So far, it is Perry’s team. I thought Wayne would be our “knight in consistent armor” this year. That hasn’t proven to be. I was hoping for him to lead with consistency, to help the young lads out.
As anticipated, Kelly is coming on. He’s a huge bright light on a team full of shadows. We still haven’t experienced what he is capable of. He just gave us a taste.
Perhaps Kelly is up to leading this team. Give him some time and let him continue to build his confidence… who knows… maybe by March?
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@globaljaybird
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A little bit of “take it for what you think it’s worth” info, but according to a guy I know who talks to Perry’s high school coach (Joe Auer), apparently whenever Perry returns home to Wichita they touch base and Auer will make the high school gym available to Perry. Within the last week they got together and Auer told Perry he looked flat during one of the games recently (could be either the Lafayette or Temple games, or both) and asked what gives. Perry allegedly told the coach that he had gotten into Self’s doghouse and Self made him run the steps (the Withey treatment) and that he simply didn’t have any legs for the game.
Again, take it for what it’s worth. Hearsay. Rumor. Whatever. It wouldn’t surprise me if it was true, or it wouldn’t surprise me if the guy was blowing smoke to try and impress me with his “insider knowledge”.
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@icthawkfan316 hmmm, what do you think?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Well, really I can’t think of why the guy would lie to try and impress me. I don’t have any influence in any arena, nor am I in a position to grant any kind of favors. But ya never know with people; sometimes they just like to feel big so they make up fish stories.
I’m inclined to think it’s true. I think if he is in Self’s doghouse it would almost certainly be from his on-court effort and performance. I can’t see Perry struggling with his classes, getting a DUI (Brady), interferring with a police officer (Jamari), etc. My younger brother lives in Lawrence and never sees him out partying or hears about any extra curricular nonsense.
So following that train of thought - that he is in the doghouse and it’s due to effort/execution in games and/or practices - then we can assume he is in Self’s “toughening box”. Self knows he needs Perry; he doesn’t have enough better options to banish him to the end of the bench. So it’s different than say…Brannen being in Self’s doghouse. Self can make due without Brannen, but we can’t have a successful season without Perry. So maybe Self harkened back to how he turned laid-back California Withey into stank-face Withey, and decided it’s worth a shot. Idk if it will work, but my guess is he’s taking the Christmas break period to try a different approach (pushing different buttons, as @drgnslayr would say).
As a Wichita native and resident, as well as a Heights alum and just general fan of the guy, I’m rooting for Perry to have as much success as possible. But there’s no ignoring his struggles or shortcomings. I think not having a legitimate 5 playing alongside him hurts as much as anything. Perry’s not a guy who can own the paint. But put him with a Cole Aldrich, Jeff Withey, Joel Embiid and he can be very effective. Put him with Landon Lucas and Jamari Traylor…defenses can focus on him. Game plan for him. And he becomes very mediocre.
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@icthawkfan316 I was trying to figure what Perry would look like w/stank face look from Withey! I do remember coach saying he wouldn’t change Perry, he is what he is, but thought it was more about leadership qualities. Very interesting. I do think Perry came back strong last pm, after his shaky start.
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I felt like Perry had a good game. After reading the posts, I had to go back to the box score to see if I was imaging something. 7-14 for 15 pts. and 8 rebs. OK. His FT’s sucked. Isn’t that pretty good? Clearly he was better in the 2nd half…not uncommon for a player to have 1 good half and 1 mediocre half. He got some shots blocked. I have to believe that Self wants to keep going inside to him regardless. Some may get blocked. Have the preseason expectations maybe been set too high? I know we might expect something a little more against Kent State. Can’t we be successful if Perry has a similar performance in the Big 12 games? Yes…I know the competition is stiffer than Kent State…but Perry has done it before against Big 12 competition. He can’t go 20 and 12 every game. Am I setting the bar too low?
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@HighEliteMajor Temple is a hell of a team right now. They won at UConn about an hour ago. Lots of cuts, bruises, typical for their styles & we know where we fit in that conversation. Had I been able to see Kent State I might be more concerned than after Temple, but they’re certainly no cupcake. UConn has a badass rim protector too & still Dunphy got the W. Morgan & Cummings both in double figures & nailing FT’s almost as high % as vs Kansas. UNLV brings a really big challenge at a time we are not playing with much consistency beyond Frank Mason & who knows how hard Bill will ride him without a credible backup. Sure as H isn’t “all balls & head down Wayne” If we’re 11-2 next Sunday I’ll be happy as a puppy with 2 peters… JMO
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@Crimsonorblue22 Why don’t we just change to purple…or gold and black? Makes as much sense as “sepia volcano dust gray”. You have to trust me on this - I am considered a fashion expert at the cement pond :)…
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@globaljaybird HA! Your puppy allusion really brightened an otherwise drizzly day. Most of the posts on this thread (including my own) project impending doom. I agree that if we are 11-2 next Sunday eve, things will look cheery as we roar into league play. (I had best stop typing right now before I revert to something pessimistic or caustic.) HAPPY 2015 to ALL! What a dandy Jayhawk Hoops Site!
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@KUSTEVE ha ha I bet you are!!
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@Jyhwk_InTigrtwn Great post, Same sentiments to you as well!
My big question of the moment is why is Coach Self unable to let go of trying to make this team into the 08 team? Its not gonna happen. We dont have the roster to play inside out every freeking possession. Kelly SHOULD have gotten 42 last night, broke Wigs single game scoring record.@jaybate-1.0 We do have more than one 40% trey gunner. Our coach just hasnt let them do it with enough frequency.
Final thought, right now I dont see this KU team making it out of the first round.
oh yah, final final thought. UNLV beat Arizona AT their place. They can certainly beat KU on Sunday.
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@Lulufulu it seems to me, that coach has given the green light to all wings and Perry to shoot the 3. If we develop our inside game, doesn’t that open up the 3?
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It was a true joy to find all of you again. After reading the alternative KU posts, someone was kind enough to let us know that there is a great site with great fans. It is a joy to read you guys again.
Bill Self is not on the ‘back nine’. Last year at this time, we were all worried about OSU and how well they were playing. KU loses to Villanova, gets destroyed by Florida and loses at home to SDS. KU then goes on a run-and wins on the road key Big 12 games and the title is in site again.
This title will be difficult-most have been. Texas has the perfect team to give us fits. ISU is solid and OU will be tough. One simply has to go back and see how Bill Self has fared against each of those coaches and teams. Hoiberg has the best case against KU. I would take Self vs Barnes any game-anywhere.
I watched KU beat Florida in Vegas with Julian Wright. That was a young team. All came back except Julian and we know the rest of the story. Enjoy this year and hope that we can keep the streak alive. Next year is shaping up to be one of Bill Self’s best teams.
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Glad you found us. Welcome. Hope you’re right.
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Coach, I absolutely hate it when you get pessimistic!
I am not a bonafide professional.
I get to be pessimistic out of ignorance.
You on the other hand have some obligation to hold our hands and say it will be alright!!!
Ah, but it IS alright.
We have The Legacy.
We have a great coach.
We have players worth loving and rooting for.
We have great fans.
No one has crashed the stock market yet.
Putin stopped the South Stream gas line under the Black Sea and partnered over land with Turkey and the west.
Women are still beautiful.
The private owners of The Fed are going to keep interest rates down awhile longer.
The world is awash in more oil and gas than it knows what to do with.
Scientists have decided it is okay to eat butter and use aluminum cookware, after all.
Every game from here on out is going to be somewhere we can watch it.
Happy New, Year, Coach, Happy, Happy New Year!!
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@jaybate-1.0 you seem, uh, “happy”? Ringing in the new year?
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No, no booze for me, if that’s the question.
Hung up the shaker about 25 years ago.
No addiction problem. Just nudged me closer to high blood sugar than I liked. Best thing I ever did.
But, hell, yes, I love New Years.
Ever since I was 10 and saved an M-80 from July 4th till the New Years and detonated it at 4 below zero in a huge snow drift, I have loved the holiday as much as any.
Happy New Years!
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How about you, are you already a little tight?
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@jaybate-1.0 I don’t drink either. I tried! I’d be sick for days. Happy new year to you. I’m watching suns and thunder on fox sports.
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@jaybate-1.0 funny, I’d be loose if I was drinking.
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Happy New Year to " all y’all".
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BACK AT YOU!
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Yes, me, too. But I was just using an old slang from the movies of the 1940s-1950s for fun.
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@jaybate-1.0 missed those!
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Tight may even have been from the 1930s. Regardless, I pick out a two decade period and a genre every year, or two, and try to watch movies from that era. I study the evolution of the mythology and camera techniques. Last year I watched westerns from the 1940s to 1950s without John Wayne or James Stewart in them to see what the lesser actors and directors were trying to do. The 1 million channels on cable, plus internet, plus TIVO make this easy and fast to do. This pic is probably from The Thin Man with William Powell and Myrna Loy. Get ta know ya legacies. It is necessary to know your present.
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@jaybate-1.0 Some of the best memories of my youth is watching movies with my father late Saturday nights after mom and my sisters (3 of them) were in bed. Pop had a tough upbringing and did a ton of things to get me prepared along the way. Anyway-I love old movies with the Duke-but my favorite without him is Alan Ladd in “Shane”. Is that on your list?
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Shane is one of my all time favorites. Alan Ladd and Jack Palance shooting it out. What could be better. The final scene is a real tear jerker. Actually one of the latest Geico ads is a takeoff of it. The one with the “words can hurt” and the guy hits his head on the “The End”.
Maybe KU could do something like what was done with Alan Ladd. He was a real heart throb but only about 5’4" or so. They would dig ditches so that the ladies could stand in them and be shorter. If we could only do something similar with Cliff and make him appear to be a footer.
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GREAT THREAD!!! Just got home after 11.5 hr drive from the Holy Land (Kansas btw)
Here’s a shot of Vail from I-70 tonite!
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Sorry to veer off topic on last post!
I’m in agreement w much of above. I know hcbs knows what he’s doing but he seems REALLY set in his ways. Before Kent State we had a great thread about how Alexander needed to play a minimum of 30 min. It made/makes complete sense to me. However, JamTray starts and gets a ton of unjustified minutes.
I’d start Cliff and Perry and sub Mickelson, Lukas and JamTray in that order.
I’d also start Svi over Selden.
Don’t know what to do w Greene.
We need to play outside in.
Shoot at LEAST 20 threes/game.
Blah blah blah…
RCJHGKU!!!
I’m done posting till next year
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Shane is an awesome movie. I enjoy watching all of the scenes that the background changes. The Tetons are covered with clouds, then someone else is shown and they go back and now the Tetons are cloud free. It happens all through the movie!
@colojhawk Welcome to our little KU cult. When you get a KU shaved into your forehead, or if you have no hair there, a tattoo at the same spot, give us a pic and you’ll be officially in.
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@VailHawk I predict that Cliff will soon earn a bundle of minutes. Indications are that he is struggling with shin discomfort, and has not fully recovered from the ankle sprain. Then, first minute off the bench he did not run the floor and execute with energy, so got the quick hook. His TIME is coming…and soon. Gotta hope that Bill does not read your Svi over Selden suggestion. The Guy might drop into coronary mayhem! I think most of us are right there with you on the BG issue. What the hell to do with him? I suppose he will squeeze out fifteen minutes of fame now and then…interspersed with five minute stretches of YIKES! Anyway, there are so many bright possibilities lurking within this squad that we are in for lotsa sunny mornings after. HAPPY NEW YEAR to you and all faithful Jayhawk buckets posters. ROCK CHALK!
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@jaybate-1.0 First color flick I ever watched was “Gunfight at the OK Corral” at the Uptown back in the 50’s. We rode the passenger train from the boondocks to Union Station & took the bus to my 75 yr old Aunt’s house at 31st & Forest. Another classic from that time frame was “Last Train From Gun Hill” w/ Kirk Douglas & Anthony Quinn Those were the days…seems to me we may have even paid the fare with plastic mill tokens.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
But I was just using an old slang from the movies of the 1940s-1950s for fun
Wanted to profess vocabulary ignorance in a post I made above where I referenced you - I was looking for a fun word to go with prolific and went with “pontificate” thinking that it just meant something along the lines of preaching the gospel. I didn’t realize it also negative connotations, surely not meant that way, I enjoy your posts!
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@Crimsonorblue22 Yah, normally it does. Mason drives and kicks it out to the open wing for the trey. But, they arent doing that enough. At least that seems to be the general consensus on here. One I agree with.
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@VailHawk Thanks for sharing that Vail. I’ve never seen fireworks over a Mountain before.
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Greene. I read a number of posts about him above. Most of which refer to him leaving after this year. I doubt this. I think he is still a sophomore and will be a huge part of our team his junior and senior years. The guy is a 6’8 pure scorer. Just needs to figure out how to play defense and stay out of Self’s doghouse. I think us KU fans are a bit too quick to say “this guy is gone next year” as it has happened a couple of times recently with AW3 and CF. Both of those guys had similar strengths to Greene in that they are 3 point shooters. I feel there is more the Greene than just 3’s though. He can score in other ways and is obviously money from the FT line. His family has Kansas ties (not that this stopped CF) and I just feel he is still a year away from making it all come together. Remember when juniors and seniors were the guys getting time while freshman and sophomores had to sit and watch and learn? It was not that long ago. Releford, T Rob, Darnell Jackson, etc, etc, etc. Some guys just need a bit of time to figure it all out. Obviously I am in the minority but I still see Greene being a KU Jayhawk for 2 more years.
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The issue with Green is that he is one the more one-dimensional player I have seen in a long time. He can hit threes, when he is in the groove and can hit FT all the time; however, his defense and passing, or lack thereof, are a big concern. The question boils down to…does his shooting offsets his liabilities? At this time I would have to say than other than playing as a “designated shooter” on specific situations, his playing time will likely not increase, particularly with Oubre’s recent play.
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Greene is still his own worst nightmare. He helped us win at georgetown, and has hit numerous shots when needed. Then you have basically every other game and what do you get? His defense is his biggest liability and he’s playin 13 minutes a game because of it. Are the concerns valid that he might not be here next year, yes because we’ve seen recently that KU can’t go one year without some crazy off-season attrition. Would it be in his best interest, no he should continue to work hard because his jumper is NBA worthy.
Selden as I’ve said is seriously in a slump. He’s been in it basically his whole time here. His defense can be very good and his understanding of how Self wants things done is basically what keeps him on the court. If graham was available I bet we would see way more Mason and him on the court at the same time. Selden has to hit buckets, I’m tired of saying it but he doesn’t deserve 30 minutes a game if he can’t start making shots. Svi and Greene dont impact the game consistently enough yet to get minutes over wayne. These are the cards we are dealt. The only hope is that Oubre really takes over a big chunk of the scoring and we can live with the inconsistent offense from Selden. Hoping this slump he’s in is going to suddenly go away isn’t likely. I’ll eat all the crow if it was proven untrue.
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Thx for taking a minute to clarify.
The beauty of this medium is we get to make those clarifications.
I hope that our community over time will become more and comfortable with adding, subtracting, and correcting and apologizing, along with all the good cheering and moral support we lend each other. Extending these sorts of curtesies greatly increase ones joy at participating.
Rock Chalk!
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@JayHawkFanToo think we can add practices and wts in there too. We don’t know! I think he’ll get chances, if he’s going all out at practice. I heard he was smart, he sure does some bone-headed things! I swear I could play better D than him! Kinda funny!
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@globaljaybird
Oh, yeah, those were very good and the Uptown really was uptown once upon a time.
Back to flicks, its very personal what moves one and resonates with one. Up until the last two years, Randolph Scott was not my cup of tea. But then I found the Budd Boetticher westerns the he directed for Scott that were written by Burt Kennedy and it was like a light went on that I had been missing something very, very, very important in the westerns. I don’t know how, or why, it happened. I had looked at Boetticher and Kennedy’s work long ago, when I was trying to learn about screen writing, and though I appreciated their craft, their westerns did not thrill me at all.
But then two years ago, they did. AND IN A BIG WAY.
I believe what changed was my getting older and getting a bit disillusioned with the kind of movies made today, where heroes are so compromised. The themes of these westerns relit my love for movies and I watched and studied all six three times each and they have rekindled my love for movies generally.
Decision at Sundown (1957)
The Tall T (1957)
Buchanan Rides Alone (1958)
Ride Lonesome (1959) – also producer
Westbound (1959)
Comanche Station (1960)
I really think these six westerns rank as important contributions to our culture’s art of the 20th Century–they do for me.
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Brannen seems to some extent a casualty of the OAD approach to team building.
Brannen seems likely to be like EJ and Travis. His neural nets are probably a little slow reaching full maturity. This is a crucial dynamic affecting the rate at which all players in this age range arrive as players. No amount of PT, or “development work,” can compensate for neural nets not being fully grown in. If the net is not their, no matter how many reps one gets, there is nothing to burn in. Brannen seems to be doing lots of good things. But he also seems to be doing some bone head things. That is an indicator of incompletely developed neural nets.
Under the pre OAD approach, guys like Brannen could sit a couple seasons, sometimes even three with a redshirt, as Travis Releford did, and then we would watch them metamorphose suddenly between their third season and their fourth and fifth seasons. By the fourth season, with the neural nets fully grown in, all the wildness and unpredictability is gone. By the fifth season, they have polished all of the skills that take a year to work on, once you have the neural nets sufficient to burn in with a year of reps. It lead to incredibly competent players that you could count on game after game for a season or two.
But now, especially at the wing position that Brannen plays, Self drags in 1-2 OAD wings each season. And they have to play. And so whether Brannen ever gets a shot or not, will depend entirely on whether Self cannot sign 1-2 OADs each season.
Even if Brannen were to stay for a 4th season, or redshirt, for a fifth season, it would be very easy for Self to bring in an OAD and have to play him, regardless of how polished Brannen eventually became.
OADs HAVE TO PLAY, WHETHER THEY ARE READY OR NOT, OR THE OAD SPIGOT GETS VALVED TO OTHER PROGRAMS THAT WILL PLAY THEM READY OR NOT.
This apparent truth probably underlies why Self no longer throws rouge smoking jackets to guys at high traffic positions, like 2, 3, and 4.
By high traffic, I mean positions where he can realistically expect to drag in 1-2 OADs each season.
Why give a guy a red shirt and develop him, if you are going to have to play OADs ready or not?
As a result of having to play OADs, you really can’t afford to carry Red Shirts. You need all of your scholarship players contributing during the steep learning curve of the OADs you have to play. You have to have guys playing the 3 while Oubre is getting ready to, and then you have to sit them the rest of the season, for Oubre to play. You cannot afford guys on red shirt getting better. You need what little experience they have at the beginning of every season and then you have to shaft them with benching, because then you have to play the OAD/TAD.
Tie goes to the OAD.
Self made clear Brannen’s next best shot. Its is to come in and push TAD Wayne Selden for minutes. But notice that Self said we’ve got to get Wayne a little more productive by Svi and Brannen pushing him. Oubre is now our 3, unless he blows it.
Brannen is not competing for a starting 2 role. Brannen is being offered the chance to push Wayne to the point that Wayne plays well enough to keep Brannen off the floor permanently, too.
Brannen appears to be a smart young man. He appears to understand what is being done to him. Conner Frankamp understood the same thing. Conner and his dad just decided that that was not the best thing for Conner’s mental health and for his basketball playing future to fulfill that role for Self–to be a “pusher” of OAD/TADs with no chance to ever start consistently. That, I believe, was what Conner meant when he said he loved it at KU, but they just have so many guys here. That was code for Self has committed to basing the program on OADs and if one is not an OAD, then there is no other role on the team, if one is behind an OAD, and Self made clear that Conner was NOT a point guard, but a 2 guard, and so Conner would always have been a “pusher” for some OAD/TAD at the 2.
Brannen is in the position of being a “pusher” now. It is a thankless role for a scholarship player once highly recruited. Self is basically indicating he can be a “pusher” at the 3, or 2, as long as he stays at KU.
Brannen will play some.
But it will tend to be when he can “push” an OAD/TAD.
Frankly, if I had been Brannen’s advisor, I would have told him to transfer to WSU along with Conner. At WSU Brannen would get to compete straight up for a real starting position, same as Conner. He might not beat out his competition, but he might.
The fact is at KU, Brannen will never beat out an OAD/TAD for any position ever…even when the neural nets are grown in.
His only chance, Conner’s only chance at KU, too in the OAD era, would be for Self to fail to sign an OAD/TAD for him to “push.”
The collateral damage, as the Pentagon likes to call it, of the OAD/TAD phenomenon is brutal to other players.
Good as Frank Mason is, if Self brought in an OAD point guard, Frank would have to “push” next season, as surely as Brannen has to “push” this season.
And if Self brought in two OAD point guards next season, Frank Mason, good as he is, would be reduced to “pushing” two.
In either case, it would look like Frank were playing early, but what he would really be doing was buying time for the OADs to be ready.
Sad.
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@jaybate-1.0 pardon me, my neural net is still developing!! This year the OAD’s have not been starting. BG had a chance, he earned it and then he blew it off. If he was still scoring 17 pts, he’d be playing. Of course he needs to get to weights and play D. I get your point, but the best guy plays. If BG played like he did in his 17 pt game, he might be a TAD?? As far as CF goes, he defense was horrible and he couldn’t hit anything til the end. I’m w/Self about defense. Neural net is flaking out!
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@jaybate-1.0 In your reply to rehawk about all that is good I’m surprised you failed to mention your new traveling drawers you discovered this year.
And re old movies, my wife would be happy if the only channel we got was Turner Classic Movies. Last year for my birthday she treated me to the Christmas show and dinner at the WWII museum in New Orleans. (If you haven’t been you should put it on your bucket list.) But the dining area had posters of many actors and actresses from that era. She knew who all of them were.
And thanks to my new TIVO Roamio it’s saving every old western it finds for me to watch. At the rate its going I may never catch up.
