Recruiting Perfection: Bragg Or Bust
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@HighEliteMajor I have ran many numbers to figure the odds of Alexander producing the numbers I have previously posted and my way of figuring things produce a ±1. I did it on Wiggins for example and his numbers were 2 points higher than his predecessors but if you were to average minutes per game and then punch in Wiggins MPG (which were higher) its a 1 point difference using Wiggins MPG instead of the average MPG of the previous 3 SF’s. MKG, Shabaz, and Barnes #s are about 1 point different than Wiggins Freshman stats. So depending on MPG Cliff should produce that 16 ppg and 10 rbg ±1. As long as he plays at least the average amount of time his predecessors did. Its a work in progress…
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@Wigs2 I would point out that no one made Selby or McLemore go to college. They each could have played immediately overseas – Israel, Turkey, Russia, wherever – and could have sent money home. Further, if they really needed to help at home, then they could have skipped college all together and got a job. The problem isn’t the NCAA and stipends. You suggest now stipends so they can send money home, which is different than the “pizza money” narrative. The problem is simple poverty and that’s a broader problem. Yes, the kids are part of a process that makes millions. but so are the employees at McDonalds earning minimum wage. The college hoops players get value far exceeding minimum wage. Simply because you participate in a multi-million dollar industry doesn’t mean you deserve to earn an owners’ share of the profits. The players are replaceable parts. The NCAA and colleges own facilities, trademarks, and the business itself. Selby and McLemore each made a choice to come to college under the LOI they signed. I do wonder though, even if both would have had let’s say, Zach Peters’ parents’ financial situation, would they have still gone pro? I don’t know.
@Statmachine – When I was looking back at others’ numbers, I saw Aaron Gordon was 12 ppg and 8 rpg. Does your analysis take into account system and teammates? For ex., if a kid is the top option, or one simply one of many weapons?.
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@HighEliteMajor I feel strongly Ben Mac would have stayed, he was crying when he left. Going to school, having hot water, food, a bed, mentors, tutors, friends, etc. meant the world to him. He truly was happy here. Selby I don’t know. I do feel sorry for him!
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@HighEliteMajor Is that a realistic possibility? Are overseas teams seeking to sign American high school players? I’ve heard of it being mentioned to go overseas right out of high school, but I’m not aware of any who have done it. And–judging by what I’ve read about Svi–if they want to play in the NBA, it might be detrimental to their long-term future if they decide to play overseas first.
And although you say that the players “get value far exceeding minimum wage,” I 'm not convinced that’s a good argument since they are in school to play basketball–not learn business or psychology. I think that all too often, they are being used to make big profits for the schools and the NCAA.
Other students who are on scholarship don’t have the same restrictions and demands that athletes do. I’m from the old school, but I think it’s time to start allowing some financial assistance.
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@Wigs2 coach browns hot recruit went overseas, mundiay(sp).
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@Wigs2 Dante Exum played overseas instead of college and so did Brandon Jennings, although Exum was a foreign player, I think.
Reed is a good example of a player who is getting a good value for his time here. I think he is at KU Med school right now. I’m sure others know more about that.
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KU graduates just about every player that stay 4 years and many that left early come back to finish their degree; Cole Aldrich was Academic All-American Player of the year in his third and last year at KU and took summer classes to complete his degree and proudly walked down the hill, which is something that he had promised his parents. BTW, the “greatest walk-on” at KU, Christian Moody, also went on to Medical School and Sasha Kaun got a degree in Computer Science.
A small group of players that attended (and hopefully graduated from) KU end up in the NBA, a few others are coaching or working for Athletics programs but the great majority of players end up working in a fields other than basketball or sports.
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@HighEliteMajor My analysis doesn’t get that in depth atm. Gordon was not the #1 PF on the ESPN top 100 (which is weighted more than other poles).
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@Wigs2 Here are a few considerations:
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Playing overseas is completely realistic for many players, particularly the better players. This season, Emmanuel Mudiay signed a $1 one year deal in China, and just signed a $3 million shoe deal. He had signed with SMU, then changed his mind. But that’s the big money example. If a kid has talent, there’s a lot of crappy pro teams he could eke out a living with. The point you are making is money, and playing for pay.
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This is perhaps the best point. If anyone argues, well, who would want to play for such little pay? Or there aren’t real opportunities? Ok, then, that’s a consideration – there is no real market for their current skill set. You said that for their long term future, playing overseas may be detrimental for their futures – ok then. The best deal they have is the NCAA. It’s all about choice.
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Other students on scholarship have no parallel to student athletes. Those other students aren’t in a sports competition. where outside influences, boosters, etc., could taint the entire playing field with outside money, benefits, etc. Moreover, and more importantly, the only reason the basketball player is getting a scholarship because he can play basketball, not because he has a high GPA or ACT score. It’s because of basketball. Take away the hoops, take away the scholarship.
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And that’s the next point. If a kid wants the freedom to work while in school, or market his skills, don’t accept the basketball scholarship. Get a student loan, or grant, and work, and go to school. Quite obviously, the basketball scholarship is the better deal.
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You imply that they aren’t in school to “learn business or psychology.” Folks make this mistake all the time. The college athlete many times chooses the easy path. The African American studies path. But others choose a more challenging path – look at Tyrel Reed. It’s there for the taking. Or Christian Moody, a walk-on, as cited by @jayhawkfantoo. All the tutoring one could want. Most often, the easier path is chosen, and that probably fits many times with a player’s academic acumen. Many people forget that. Many of these kids choose easier degrees because they just aren’t smart enough to pursue more difficult degrees. No shame in that.
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“Fair value” - Free tuition, free room and board, free food, free books, free tutoring, free clothes, free cable tv, free room phone. Oh, but they might have to pay for a pizza. But guess what? At KU, part of the meal plan includes a certain number of pizzas. If a kid comes from nothing, his standard of living increases many fold living on scholarship.
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You mentioned it again – you said, “I think that all too often, they are being used to make big profits for the schools and the NCAA.” I say, so what? Look at McDonalds, Home Depot, Nike – they make their billions in profits of low paid workers. Why are they low paid? Because they have no other appreciable, marketable skill. Same with the NCAA basketball players. The NCAA and colleges have all the risk. Folks forget that. It’s the big, bad rich and powerful. But the NCAA and colleges build the facilities, manage the programs, negotiate TV deals, create sports networks, and create the environment to permit athletes to play in college for free, and to hone their skills so that they have a chance to make a living in their chosen sport.
Look at today’s story at kusports.com. Jaylen Brown says he may play overseas because he wants to help his family. Good for him. Stephen Zimmerman’s mom says he won’t ever sign a LOI because of the restrictions. Smart. It’s freedom of choice. The lower tier guys just don’t have as much leverage. But it’s still all about freedom of choice. Every kid has it.
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Here’s the truth about athletic scholarships
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Scholarship athletes, particularly in the money making sports of football and men’s basketball, are typically steered away from more challenging majors by academic advisers. I know this for an absolute fact. Advisers will set the student’s schedule for them, and they steer them towards easier courses with “athlete friendly” professors so they don’t have to worry about eligibility, and because being an athlete requires missing a healthy amount of class, especially at the D1 level. This isn’t about intelligence so much as its about whether the athlete will insist upon changing their schedule (and major) and going against the adviser. I personally know athletes that wanted to pursue a particular field and basically had to fight the athletic department academic adviser as well as the coaching staff to let them take certain courses or switch majors.
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Many of these athletes have other skills. It just so happens that their most valuable skills are athletic. Many of these athletes are skilled musicians, writers, artists, etc, but none of those professions offer them a chance to make the kind of money their basketball skills could translate to. If you have one career path that could lead to a $1m per year job and another career path that could lead to a $35k per year job, which would you pursue first?
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Colleges fear the changing of the OAD rule because of the things I cited above about the possibility that NCAA basketball starts becoming more like NCAA baseball. That is the unspoken thing here. NBA GMs do not say this on the record, but the scouts do - they are already heavily critical of the level of play at big time college basketball programs. It’s just not very high. Look at KU’s schedule last year, the toughest in the nation. You want to evaluate Andrew Wiggins as a wing player for the NBA. How many games did you have where you had enough opposing talent on the wings to really evaluate Wiggins? Let’s count - Duke, Florida, Colorado, San Diego State, and Oklahoma State (2). That’s it. Six games with NBA caliber talent/size on the wing to evaluate Wiggins against. KU played 35 games last year. 29 were worth very little from a level of competition standpoint for a guy like Andrew Wiggins. If you start having the OADs skip college again, the level of talent will be even lower. At that point, the TAD’s and others with NBA potential are, at least from a basketball perspective, better served to play wherever the rest of that talent flows. If you have to stay three years, the top talent won’t be flowing to the NCAA. That means either juco’s or the D-League will be getting most of those players. That terrifies the NCAA since the NCAA tournament represents about 85% of the entire income for the NCAA in any given year. The NCAA is the currently accepted path, but if there’s a rule change, there’s no reason that has to continue.
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That whole “walk on” if you want freedom thing? Not true. Check out the Baker Mayfield situation between Texas Tech and Oklahoma. Mayfield was a walk on at Tech last year that happened to end up being their starting QB. He has since transferred to OU, but Tech initially blocked his transfer and he is now in a position where he may not be eligible to play this season, even though he was not on scholarship at Tech. OU may not even be able to give him a scholarship because of the transfer situation with Tech. And this for a kid that was a walk on to begin with.
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The NCAA and colleges take almost 0 risk when it comes to student athletes. One of the false assumptions is that a scholarship is a four year investment. Completely untrue. A scholarship is a one year commitment, renewable for up to five years. We see all the time that students are released from scholarship for all sorts of reasons, be they academic, behavior, or athletic. But just because you make grades and attend practices, there is no guarantee that your scholarship will be renewed. That is at the discretion of the coaches each year. If a player doesn’t perform as well (or if a better one comes along) you can just not renew the scholarship of a returning player. The student athlete is guaranteed nothing - not a four year degree, not full tuition, nothing. The athlete is the one risking injury performing for free. They play while banged up or risk that their coach will tell pro evaluators they lack “toughness” or “heart”. I know for a fact that this has happened in the past, too.
Changing the OAD rule could be a boon for colleges if top players continue to come to college. It could also turn D1 basketball into a product that looks a lot like D1 baseball.
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@HighEliteMajor What is the risk for the NCAA? And, out of all those schools that have taken so much risk, can you name any that have lost anything by taking that risk?
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@drgnslayr I read your post about the 2012 Hawks and “proudest 2nd place finish”, and no doubt got a bit emotional about it in a Dick-Vermeil-sort-of-way. The issue with that team was the whole season they got off to slow starts, and it caught up with them vs KY, despite outscoring KY in the 2nd half.
I’d remind everybody that we had 2-3 missed dunks (point-effin-blank), and about 2-3 clanked FTs in that game…if that team could have won, I may have liked them better than the 08 champs, since '12 could have done IT without all the pieces that '08 had.
@Statmachine I agree with you about the value of talent, and think KY this year should be ranked #1, due to their incoming talent PLUS their 3-4 *talented guys returning who have Final4 experience". Look what that mix did for Calipari in '12. Look what raw talent alone did for KY in '13 (NIT), and for KU last year (lackluster).
The other point to make about talent is this: Self isnt bring a bunch of Bradys & Tharpes in here…the guys he brings can still jump outta the gym, etc…they just need what his keen eye thinks he can add to their game, which is a priceless process to watch. I dont want to lose such a true, pure, and intuitive coach like that. Tyshawn#70, TRobTop50, WitheyTop30, RelefordTop40, EJ5starTop20. Not a MickeyD on that team, but no slouches either. I’d take TRob OVER McdAA Ellis anyday! (fire under Ellis intended.)
Winning a NC every season is simply NOT possible. Making it back to the champ game back2back is statistically highly unlikely. In a one-loss-go-home tourney format, yall ask yourselves how often do these decade-o-dominance ku/Self teams even make it to the BigXII Tourney Champ game? Definitely not every season. So temper the Final4 expectations back to realistic proportions…is what I tell myself the last few years.
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@Wigs2 Well, it’s really the member institutions. The NCAA is a governing body so my reference including the NCAA is not that important in this point. But money doesn’t grow on trees for member institutions. Facilities cost millions, coaches and their contracts cost millions, etc. The “risk” is not all paid cash on the barrel head. There is debt carried forward. Further, you have the involved individuals such as administrators who have their livelihoods tied to the athletic ventures. And don’t forget, the revenue from sports covers a large chunk of non-athletic expenditures. “Risk” is also the venture itself. If the venture starts to fail, as in any other venture, that’s when the balance sheet bleeds red. When balance sheets turn negative, folks lose their jobs, services (programs) get cut, assets are liquidated – it’s business.
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I agree with every point you made…the world must be coming to an end.
The underlying theme of our culture is that we have choices, some might have better (or worse) options but in the end we all have the option and freedom of saying yes or no.
The average athlete at a programs such as KU has a lot more options than the average student that has to depend on family money, loans, scholastic scholarships (none even close to an athletic scholarship) or part-time classwork with part-time work or a combination of all. Enough said, you presented perfectly.
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@HighEliteMajor For most of the NCAA institutions, your point is probably more accurate than it is at KU and other elite basketball schools. But most schools don’t have anyone thinking about OAD–e.g. UMKC. Hardly any have someone who would–or could–decide to play overseas instead of playing college ball.
We’re talking about upper-crust, elite players–not those that even a school like K-State is normally recruiting. Those players who are almost sure-fire NBA talent.
Assuming that there are 13 full-paid scholarship players each year, the amount of money you’re talking about is at most $400K. Considering attendance, television and radio, apparel sales, etc., how long does it take KU or Kentucky or Duke to make that amount of money? Ten minutes into the first game?
I say there should be some way to provide additional financial assistance beyond the scholarship to get them away from the OAD mentality.
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“One thing that could alleviate the OAD issue would be for the players to be paid a decent stipend for playing D1 basketball.”
They just need to own their own names. In any other situation this would be protected by federal laws… but the NCAA “slave league” somehow wins out over federal law.
If they owned their names they could already be pulling in licensing revenue. As we well know, even top HS recruits might already be millionaires coming out of HS… funny thing… they already have big reps today while in HS and a big value with advertisers and shoecos. They have that value WITHOUT any involvement from D1. Wiggins should have been a millionaire in HS.
Someday there will be one smart attorney with ethics and the balls to take this challenge the right way to the courts, and not just what the NCAA does with players’ names, earning them a small cut.
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What planet do you live in? No disrespect intended.
You are looking at a tiny fraction of the expenditures for the basketball team.
Operating expense per participant: $127,886
KU total Basketball expenditures: $10,724,156
KU Total Basketball Revenue: $16,412,415
The revenues are not generated by the players alone. Revenues include TV contracts, endorsements, trademark even concession stands. All of this require a number of administrators (and yes, attorneys) to get the revenues flowing. The Jayhawk trademark and brand popularity alone likely contribute the most and are largely player independent.
Here is the official government source:
Source of financial information for Educational Institutions…
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@JayHawkFanToo Agreed that the revenues are not generated by the players alone. However all those revenues you mentioned would not happen without the players–especially the elite players. And I’m not saying to pay them all several million a year. But I see no problem with the school loaning them money till they get to the NBA.
But if Josh Selby had been able to have been able to help his family while he was in college, he almost certainly would have returned to KU for at least one more year. Then he could have paid that money back when he got to the NBA. Unfortunately, he most likely felt the need to go for the instant money rather than wait to develop into an NBA-caliber player.
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@Wigs2 said:
@JayHawkFanToo Agreed that the revenues are not generated by the players alone. However all those revenues you mentioned would not happen without the players–especially the elite players. And I’m not saying to pay them all several million a year. But I see no problem with the school loaning them money till they get to the NBA.
But if Josh Selby had been able to have been able to help his family while he was in college, he almost certainly would have returned to KU for at least one more year. Then he could have paid that money back when he got to the NBA. Unfortunately, he most likely felt the need to go for the instant money rather than wait to develop into an NBA-caliber player.
Ben McLemore comes to mind too. Might have returned to school if his name could have made him enough money to support his family. Regardless I think even if you give players the chance to make money which I agree with, most will realize that the tree’s are greener just around the corner (NBA). So while a kid can love the College life/game /value education the chance for professional fame and much bigger money is always going to win out.
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@Wigs2 paying players is a slippery sloop. Is not getting a free education good enough? If a family was poor raising a future NBA star (so rare), then why couldn’t they live in poverty for a few more years so their son can not only hit the NBA lottery but have an education to go with it? You know in case the basketball thing doesn’t work out? You know as well as I do so few actually make it.
Sorry back on point here. So who’s to say that KU offers a player 3,000 a month to come play at KU, and then UK offers that same player 4,000 to come and play? So what happens now? Where is this line? Who looks over this line? Where does it end?
It’s not as simple of hey we should pay players in the college game. Maybe if some of these families actually cared about their sons. They wouldn’t put pressure on them to skip an education (like they did)(are you seeing the madness yet?), or experience that will last him a life time so that he can chase some lotto money that will leave him broke and his family.
As for borrowing money? What happens if said player doesn’t make it? Then what. How this kid supposed to pay back this money that he never earned?
Just my two cents.
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@BeddieKU23 I never understood why Bens mom didn’t come to Lawrence. So many parents have come and found jobs while the kids played.
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@DoubleDD “If a family was poor raising a future NBA star (so rare), then why couldn’t they live in poverty for a few more years so their son can not only hit the NBA lottery but have an education to go with it?”
I’ve never had to live in poverty, and I doubt many on this board have. That comment about living in poverty “for a few more years” is an example of how so many who have never had to live in poverty feel about the underprivileged.
If any system like this were to be implemented, it would have to be based on financial hardship. Again, I am not suggesting that schools just start doling out huge sums of money. But I think if there was a serious concern by college administrators and coaches, they could make it happen.
And I do think that a player such as Selby would have returned for a second season if given the opportunity to prove that he belonged in the NBA. Unfortunately, leaving after his freshman season probably cost him millions that he will never recover.
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@Wigs2 well my friend I grew up quite poor, and my family never demanded that I lead them out of hardship. Never once did they consider me a as their meal ticket, or the way out of poverty.
You keep bringing up Selby, but lets bring up Embiid. He didn’t need the money, and wanted to stay. Yet all his advisors said go. So he went.
Bottom line when a young man is looking at millions just by signing on the bottom line, they’re gone. Whether it’s the right thing to do or not.
So let me ask you this question. What happens when this players don’t pay back the money when they don’t make it? No really I’m curious. Are the colleges supposed to absorb these costs? You do know that most colleges that participate in sports are in the red? Meaning they are loosing money. And you want to add the burden of supporting these players families on loans that are mostly likely not to be paid back?
It’s quite obvious that we have views that are quite different. You feel the being in poverty is a society problem and that we should just throw money at the problem at that will fix it. Yet 90% of all people that when the lottery are worse off than before they won that pile of cash. We could also point to the fact that all those great college players that go pro, Over 60% of them go broke. I grew up poor, but made a decision that I wasn’t going to live from paycheck to paycheck. Not to toot my own horn, but I have had a job since I was 12 (well except that time I was laid off after 9/11)(yet within 4 days I had another job), I’m nothing special, just realized no money coming in doesn’t pay the bills. I’ll shovel cow shit to pay the bills if I have too.
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@DoubleDD I have not suggested that money be tossed around to just any player who wants it. Nor have I suggested that all schools participate in a program.
The reason I have brought up Selby is that he is the KU player that I think has been hurt most by leaving the program early. And I don’t think he would have left if he had felt he had a viable alternative. I would have mentioned McLemore also if he had not been drafted. Embiid’s case doesn’t apply.
At the time I first mentioned the concept, we were speaking specifically in reference to OAD’s. And only those elite, upper-crust players who have financial hardship. The ones who could go to the NBA right out of high school were it not for the rule that requires they be 19 to play in the NBA.
The elite players don’t go to schools like UMKC. Almost all go to elite basketball programs like KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA. Those programs are not operating in the red.
Another alternative would be to allow them to bypass college and participate in the NBADL but not in the league till they turn 19.
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@Wigs2 one problem my friend. Your wanting to make special rules for only certain schools and certain players. That’s not fair to other schools and other players.
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Correct me if I am wrong but I don’t recall Josh Selby leaving for the NBA for financial reason. If I remember correctly his mother was colelge graduate and had a job and was not in financial distress as McLemore’s family was.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t remember that either.
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“Wigs2 paying players is a slippery sloop.”
I agree with that.
It’s even a slippery sloop with my method of letting players own their names. It would get corrupted.
Problem is… isn’t it corrupt today?
Let’s face it, few all-star players’ parents are starving before they get to the league. They may not be setup in big houses and cars… but I’m sure, in most cases, they get provided for. The biggest drive for the kids to get to the league is to soak up all that gravy. And their posse pushes them to go quick because they want a taste of that gravy, too.
Star college players take a risk of injury by staying another year. They also risk injury more by going to the league too quickly. Joel… he’s taking a big risk going early. But I’m really pulling for him…
Anytime big money is involved, you have corruption. I don’t care if it is sports, politics, financing, investment… real estate… commodities… Big money attracts bull snit… bull snit attracts flies… flies attract lizards… lizards attract snakes…
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@drgnslayr said:
“Wigs2 paying players is a slippery sloop.”
I agree with that.
It’s even a slippery sloop with my method of letting players own their names. It would get corrupted.
Problem is… isn’t it corrupt today?
Let’s face it, few all-star players’ parents are starving before they get to the league. They may not be setup in big houses and cars… but I’m sure, in most cases, they get provided for. The biggest drive for the kids to get to the league is to soak up all that gravy. And their posse pushes them to go quick because they want a taste of that gravy, too.
Star college players take a risk of injury by staying another year. They also risk injury more by going to the league too quickly. Joel… he’s taking a big risk going early. But I’m really pulling for him…
Anytime big money is involved, you have corruption. I don’t care if it is sports, politics, financing, investment… real estate… commodities… Big money attracts bull snit… bull snit attracts flies… flies attract lizards… lizards attract snakes…
The other angle that is not talked about as much with players leaving early vs staying is the money involved in getting to the 2nd Contract and maximizing that into a profitable career for a 3rd-4th deal etc.
You take a 19-20 year old kid who has done 1 year in college, is high on draft boards and is considering coming back to school for Soph yr. Now if he does come back he’s 20-21 or 21-22 going pro after his Soph/Jr/Sr year and has missed 1/2/3 years of getting paid.
He’s now that much further behind in getting off the Rookie pay scale into a lucrative 2nd contract or hitting free agency. Time is limited for these athletes to maximize earnings potential with so many risks in the way. So its hard to expect young kids to play a game they know they are good at for free when they know a potential big pay day for his family is within reach.
The NFL for example has seen a tremendous spike amount of Red-shirt soph’s or Juniors going pro because the Shelf Life for Football players is so limited already that the younger you are and hit the league gives you the leverage for a bigger 2nd contract and so on. Once kids talk to agents and realize the risk of being older and getting the big money drops every year you are not earning for a living is hard to pass up.
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This is the issue I have. Most of us pay to go to college for at least 4 year to get a degree or more if you want graduate degree, the we work all of our lives and if you are lucky and after 20 years you are making $200k you are in the upper 4% of the population; at $100K you are in the top 7%.
Now, a student athlete gets paid to attend college at level that most every other student can only dream, leaves after a year after completing maybe two semesters and will be making in one year more than most every other person makes in a lifetime. I understand that their playing days are limited, but why is it that after, say 10 -12 years, he has to stop working? None of us do, why can’t they start working at something else like the rest of the population? Yes, they are gifted athletes but many of us are gifted engineers, doctors, accountants and what have you and yet we don’t feel entitled to quit working after 10 years.
A few years ago when basketball players went on strike I had an interesting talk with other sports fans about the impact of the strike on society at large. The question posed was which strike affect you personally and society most and least, a basketball/pro-players strike or a sanitation workers or policemen, or doctors or grocery store clerk and others? The answer for most was sanitation workers and you can guess what the answer for least was …kind of makes you think.
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There’s an old saying that the most valuable dollar is the first dollar.
I didn’t come from poverty, but I did come from a family that was not well off. I definitely understood what it meant to live paycheck to paycheck growing up. However, I did know quite a few people that grew up in poverty. When I say poverty, I don’t mean paycheck to paycheck - I mean actual poverty, where you don’t have enough money for necessities like food, clothes, shelter, etc.
@DoubleDD, I believe you are a reasonable person. How many days would you want to go hungry? How many nights would you want to fall asleep in the cold? How many days would you want to live not knowing where you would sleep that night? That’s what poverty is. You have to ask (and answer) those questions every day. Living like that for even one minute longer than you have to would be crazy.
@DoubleDD said:
Maybe if some of these families actually cared about their sons. They wouldn’t put pressure on them to skip an education (like they did)(are you seeing the madness yet?), or experience that will last him a life time so that he can chase some lotto money that will leave him broke and his family.
Have you ever thought that perhaps those sons looked at the struggles their family went through and couldn’t imagine asking them to live like that another year? For a kid from poverty, living in dorms at college is quite a bit more comfortable than where they are from. So you get to live in comfort while your parents and siblings live in abject poverty? That’s something that most people, especially those that care about their parents and siblings, would do. I know if I were in that position, I would not ask my family to live in poverty while I hung out in college for another year.
I agree with @Wigs2 that the players should be able to capitalize off their name and likeness. That’s an easy fix. If a player could earn money by appearing in commercials or endorsing products, college would be an easier thing. Wiggins could have signed with Adidas and spent four years at KU if he wanted, earning millions while in college. But that’s currently against the rules. Wiggins can’t touch a cent from Adidas unless he goes pro.
@JayHawkFanToo I agree that most go to college for a degree and work at our career. But the thing with being an athlete is that, at best, your career as an athlete has a window that closes when you are 40. You have basically 20 years to capitalize on your athletic talents. After that, the opportunity is gone. Whether you pursue that at 20 or 25 or 22 or 30, your window closes at 40. And it closes forever. You simply can’t earn money as an athlete after that window closes.
That doesn’t mean they can’t go into another line of work. It just means that the earning opportunity of being an athlete only lasts so long. I’ve posted often on the differences in earnings between Rasheed Wallace and Kevin Garnett (back to back picks in the 1995 draft). Because Garnett was 2 years younger, he made twice as much money as Wallace during his career. Yes, Garnett was a better player, but his age allowed him to sign big contracts three times during his career, while Wallace only got two big paydays.
Let’s ask this another way. If you knew you wanted to be an accountant, and you could be an accountant at 20 (and be paid to do so) would you stay in college for the experience, or go be an accountant. Let’s say that you also knew that no matter what, you knew that you would not be able to continue being an accountant past the age of 38. Add in that at any time, your career as an accountant could end because you may not be physically able to continue being an accountant (although you would be able to do other things). Would you insist that all accountants stay in school for four years, or would it be acceptable for really talented candidates to pursue their career after only one or two years of school. I know that this is a bad example because of the education required to be an accountant, but put that aside and look at only the opportunity and the limited window. Would you demand that every accountant stay in school, or would it be okay for the most talented candidates to leave and go make money?
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Over a lifetime (40 years), high school grads average $1.2 million; with a bachelor’s degree, $2.1 million; a master’s degree, $2.5 million. Even at the higher end, the average person makes in a lifetime less than half of what the average NBA player makes in one year (average is$ 5.15M). Unless you inherited a position in the family’s corporate business, even the higher paid executives have to work almost a lifetime to get to that level.
Also, no one is demanding that athletes stay one year or three years in college or that they attend college in the first place; that is entirely their decision. BTW, a lot of careers have even more stringent requirements in order to work on your field. As an Engineer, I have to take a test after finishing college to become an EIT or Engineer-in-training, after that, I have to show 4 years of relevant experience working under a licensed engineer in order to become eligible to take the PE (professional Engineer) test , and after passing it, then I can officially work as an Engineer; I would say those are much harsher requirements than staying in college 1 or two years. Of course I don’t have to take these tests or become licensed, but without a license, I cannot work as an engineer and if I do I am subject to legal penalties. The same is true for lawyers, doctors, yes…accountants and many other professions. So when it comes to requirement to work on your chosen field, athletes have it pretty easy and the monetary compensation is huge.
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@justanotherfan You don’t know me dude. I spent many nights eating out a jar of peanut butter and covered in 4 to 5 blankets because we had no heat. You think I worked at 12 because I wanted to? No sir my mother (God bless her heart) had two other boys. You see sir I grew up fast and hard. I didn’t want to be a burden to my mother and my family, so I set out into the world woefully unprepared because I had no father to teach me the ways of life or have my back when I needed it. When life knocked me down (and it has) I got up and knocked off the dust. So please spare me the you’re an expert on the poor.
If you want to solve the world’s poverty issue then by all means, but don’t tell me Colleges should set the players families up in homes and cars because it’s the right thing to do. As long as the money is there from the NBA the players will leave for the NBA. As Embiid did. It doesn’t matter whether you grew up poor or wealthy. So spare me the ideology that the only reason young men leave for the league early is because of the poverty they and their families come from.
You want to help people? Don’t give them welfare, give them a job.
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@DoubleDD I’m assuming you are doing well now? Life is not fair but I’m glad you turned it around! I love seeing how Ben Mac is doing, and he’s giving so much back to his community! I hope he gets his degree!!! Really sorry you had a tough time!
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@Crimsonorblue22 My friend I’ve learned a lot of hard lessons. I like to think of myself as a late bloomer :). Yes I’m doing quite well. I have no complaints only that I wasn’t so hard headed ;). My daughter is headed off to college at either Iowa or KU. I know but Iowa has an excellent language and arts program (I’m still holding out for KU). My future and health benefits are secure.
The biggest problem being poor or growing up poor is everybody feels sorry for you (like you have some kind of a disease). They want to give you charity instead of giving you the tools and education to fend for yourself. The worst thing you can do for a poor person is make them dependent on your charitable donations. Don’t get me wrong, I’m not against helping the poor, but if you want to really help them give them a job. There’s no feeling like making your own money.
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@DoubleDD you are a proud man, there’s nothing wrong helping a friend out, whether it’s a warm meal or a warm coat! But you are right, education is the best way to better your life and your family’s. Keep working on your daughter!!!
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Double D I would love to hear your story… I am white but here I go.
My parents were poor but fortunately from a close family with six great-aunts who would give my father odd jobs to help put food on the table beyond his job. My parents upgraded from a one bedroom trailer to a two bedroom trailer when I was 4 and there were six of us. When I was 8 they rented a house and as the only boy I got my own room. You can imagine how 3 sisters (one older) felt about that. Back in the day, about the only thing a girl could do was baby sit while I could roam the neighborhood and make money picking up dogsh*t, shoveling snow! etc. I wish we had a system where anyone could easily go make a few bucks within walking distance. I just learned to make a buck where I could, when I could after school and weekends after football and track practice. I have my first paycheck stub from painting at our local pool. 65 cents an hour (gross) on weekends before summer started.
I believe we all deserve the chance to make a buck in a bunch of ways just like that- but the work isn’t next door and some don’t go look for it. There is a gray area I can consider unjustice for some ethnic groups who seem caught in a losing cycle of poverty and government dependence, but I also consider some think they are entitled for a handout and work the system rather that lift themselves up.
One of my favorite movies is “Dave”. He runs a temp agency and ends up as a substitute president. He comes up with a jobs bill where everyone who wants a job can have one. I would love that program in the country. Yes, you may start at the bottom sweeping trash, but it’s a start-now you work your way up depending on the value you contribute.
Please forgive me if I’m missing something, I am a well paid OIl & Gas exec but it still pick up dogsh*t in my yard and take out the trash or give my kids allowance to to the same. I think we are on the same page. Please don’t take offense if I missed something and let me know where I made the wrong turn.
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@JayHawkFanToo If you’re a bread winner playing by the rules, the journey is never swift to financial stability or success. To even work as a journeyman AWS certified welder at, let’s say Ford or GM- or Procter & Gamble or KCP & L, the BNSF RR, or Black & Veatch, or wherever that’s not a flippin sweatshop & allows a middle class blue collar guy to stake his claim, you must have at minimum, 8 years journeyman level experience verified on company letter head. And this has zero to do with either a skilled or unskilled trade union. If you want more than an entry level job flipping burgers for a minimum wage or $15 per hr fast food job, (dream on) my suggestion would be this…Train either in an educational or apprenticeship discipline or & earn your worth as you train. If you have less than the required levels of hands on working experience to earn a craft or management skill, than go ahead & flip burgers or ring a cash register at the local Kroger, or whatever your skillset allows you to perform, at the going rate. A kid right out of HS could knock down at best, maybe 20-25 K per year doing whatever, so small ball in Europe, straight out of prep ball or after year one of college paying more than 25Kper year-look long & hard before you turn it down. The NBA has damn few openings. Water actually does seek it’s own level. If you want to give extra to a kid playing sports while receiving a Scott free 30 to 40 dollar K per year scholarship so we don’t feel guilty, or give him a meal voucher at a fast food restaurant so he can treat his chickadee to an icee or a float, that’s about the limit. A kid on an academic schollie has to be damn fortunate to get any kind of grant at all, plain & simple. Let him GET AN EDUCATION like most of us here and believe you’re skilled & savvy enough to make your own way in life. Last time we checked, we already have an entire generation following us now that are perfectly content with living off of their relatives, or government entitlements, or Universities or off of anyone or any way they can without lifting a finger. If a 120 -150 thousand dollar educational stipend is not enough, then I’m sorry, I just don’t think there is much more left in the well. These "student athletes’ who claim financial duress is the reason for their labors for one tough year at a D 1 college to get in the NBA & feed the familiy(ies), wake your butt up. The D league & foreign BB will pay while you learn the trade. Straight outta HS-you really don’t know Jack & your market value has not yet been determined.
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@JayhawkRock78 though it doesn’t really matter I’m also white (whatever that is). I grew up on the streets of KC both sides. Spent a lot of time on Strawberry Hill just west of Downtown. As we moved around a lot (we couldn’t pay the rent). Some places where better than others, but in the end it was always about surviving. My mother tried so hard.
My first job was sweeping a parking lot at a convenience store. A lot of trucks stopped there and it picked up a lot of dust. So I would sweep and water down the lot. It paid $20 dollars a week, not bad for a 12 year old. :). I was a huge baseball fan at the time yet this store didn’t sell baseball cards. So being the hard headed person I was finally convinced the owner (a very nice lady)(after all instead of feeling sorry for me she gave me a job) to stock baseball cards in her shop. She couldn’t keep them stocked they where selling so fast. ;). So she gave me a promotion. Not only did I sweep and wet the parking lot but now I would stock the shelves and freezers. Yes my pay increased :).
I left home when I was 15, not out of hate or anything, Just didn’t want to be a burden on my beloved mother. I did odd jobs here and there always making enough to get by, and send a little home when I could. As I got older I meant a women that was meaner and tougher than I (A Full blooded Italian women). For some reason she loved and believed in me? You know the saying, behind every great man is a great woman? Well I think it’s true, not that I’m great man or anything. It was only after getting and searching for an education that my life began to turn. I knew how to make money, but I didn’t know what to do with it? How to budget? How to save? How to plan for the future? How to make my money work for me instead of just working for money?
So I began to invest in real estate. Sure the first purchase was a bitch (excuse my language)(but it was). The second one came a bit easier and so on and so on. Also my skills as an employee improved also. I began to trade up in jobs, income, and experience . I was always looking. I figured if companies and cooperation’s are going to do what’s best for them, then so am I. When I say I’m the Jack of all trades master of none I mean it. LOL
The topic of being poor gets me a little riled. As so many persons want to feel sorry and right a check so they can sleep at night. Like they solved the problem or something. It’s the whole give a man a fish and he can eat for a day, but teach him to fish and he can eat for a life time for me. I’m totally against putting anymore financial burdens on colleges. As I believe they are the Mecca of what makes this country truly great.
Paying players is one thing, but paying their families also. Really?
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What I meant by,“white” was I worked and lived in a white neighborhood so when I went door to door asking for work or selling Watkins Vanilla bottles or collecting for UNICEF, people answered the door. I think I had an advantage as times were different and people felt safe answering the door. I will still answer the door for anyone, but my wife seldom does. She doesn’t feel safe and unfortunately I think a lot of people don’t. It’s too bad. Most charity came from churches early on at a personal level-and teaching someone to fish as you pointed out was the goal. The Govt method perpetuates dependence, and I have a distant relative working the system. It burns me up.
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Much respect for your story. I did not mean to offend you, and apologize if I did. You are right that I did not know your story, and now that I do, it offers some insight into what you wrote that I did not have before.
The story behind my comments is this:
I grew up in sports. I’m African American, so most people were of the belief that sports was all I had going for me. They were wrong. I was a very good student in school, scored in the top 10% on the ACT, went to college on an academic scholarship, went on to graduate school on scholarship, and now work a white collar job. It’s nice, no doubt. I wouldn’t have been able to afford college without those scholarships. So it is unfortunate that many feel that all these athletes have is sports when for many, that is not the case.
My frustration is the fact that because they play NCAA sports, they cannot do anything else. They can’t work or profit from their name, image or likeness. That really upsets me. I think I told the story of a university marketing campaign that I appeared in while I was in school. A group of students were appearing in an ad campaign and as a part of that, we were being paid to be in a few pictures. When I say paid, I don’t mean a lot of money. I think it was either $25 or $50 each. One of the people that was going to be in the ad was an athlete. However, they couldn’t be paid for that because it wasn’t related to their sport. Athletes can work summer camps and stuff, but they can’t be paid for other things. As I have said before, I didn’t think that was fair then and I don’t think it’s fair now.
But more than that, I remember being in school and talking to an athlete who was literally on the floor crying. This kid had just gotten a call from a family member telling him that his mother and two youngest siblings had just had their power cut off. This kid was in tears contemplating dropping out of school that night. But what made it even worse was the fact that as he sat there talking, he didn’t even know how he would get back home to help his family if he dropped out because he didn’t have enough money to buy the gas it would take to get him back there (I think he was from somewhere in Texas). It was just a really sad situation. Yes, he’s getting an education and that gives him future hope, but none of that was going to do anything to help his family in that moment, which is what made it so sad. Granted, this kid wasn’t a future pro, but the fact remains that the NCAA restrictions that monitor every penny an athlete earns, every free meal they get, etc make it really hard to do anything other than go to school and play their sport.
@globaljaybird
You point out the issue of qualifications. What exactly are the qualifications to be in the NBA? What is the skillset required? It’s the same as being an actor, or being a musician. The skill is being able to do that at the highest possible level. Should a singer have to go to college before having a professional career? An artist? An actor? Schools have music, art and theatre programs, but I don’t see anyone restricting who gets into those fields even though literally thosands of people wash out of those careers every day. Where are the people to say that those individuals need to go to school and shouldn’t be working until they have an education. Where are the rules that prevent movies or music producers from signing those people until they are out of high school for at least a year? That’s my issue. Why is it that we think it’s not right for an athlete to go pro and make big money right out of high school, even as Taylor Swift and Miley Cyrus make millions as teenagers?
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@justanotherfan My opinions are not intended to be any type of negative rant about restricting earning power at all. Everyone should be able to earn their fair market value regardless of their education level or age with no exceptions.
The real dilemma with paying an athlete on scholarship is that boosters will pay them to go to their alumni without doing anything at all, therefore undermining the entire process. When my nephew would have dinner with us while playing D 1 ball at UMKC in the early 90’s it was a violation if he brought a teammate with him. That’s awful picky IMO, but that’s the way it was. So when you leave the barn door open the fox slips in for the chickens as soon as he knows it’s unguarded. Or the Laird Nollers & Crown Chevrolet guys show up with the keys to a Navigator or a Corvette & say you’re an emp performing marketing for the dealership. I’ve no problem at all with a kid working while playing ball, as long as it’s a legitimate endeavor & not a façade. The NBAPA is the entity that requires a kid to be one year out of HS to join the L, so the real reason for that is purely job security for the guys paying them 5-10% of their salary for representation. That’s mighty big dough for union dues & also can be viewed as job insurance for the union itself. Also the owners & GM’s get a very nice view of the players they covet & have followed since very young children, for virtually free. And with any type of purchase in life & to quote my Dad, “It just don’t get no cheaper than free.”
This is not an easy problem to negotiate though I am certainly not in favor of it. If the talent level or skillset is present for them to work in that craft I’m all for it. My point is that most of these CBB players do not & likely will never attain those skills, & either an education which is presented free of charge or an apprenticeship in the D league or Europe, South America, etc; will allow them to earn while they hone their skills, or work & endure as a professional in a foreign league to have a fruitful career. Keith Langford is an excellent example of earning power in the world market of foreign pro ball. He may still be the highest paid player in Europe & at one time was earning about 2 mill a year. The real issue that most kids out of HS must deal with is maturity to understand the difference between earning a living from an employer, & “playing” around with a fantasy. We all learn that sooner or later the gloves come off & the real fight begins so to speak, & responsibility & obligations take precedence, and priorities & self restraint become the assignment going forward. My boys have heard me many times say that the most difficult task in the world is carrying that lunch bucket back & forth to a job you detest. But also it must be accurately perceived as only the means to an end. You still go home to your family & loved ones each night, and you really only do reap what you sow.
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@justanotherfan Yea but Actors and musicians don’t get free rides in college. You’re not fixing the problem, and your just passing the buck unto colleges. You want to put the financially responsibility of the poverty on colleges because they make a little money off some of those kids. You say a college player can’t make any money of their likeness, which is true. Let me ask you a question who makes who? Does the player make the college or does the college make the player? Some thing to think about.
I could understand if the colleges were just sitting back collecting and rolling in the money. Yet they don’t. Every cent that is earned or made is reinvested in the college education or experience. It’s not like they are hoarding the money. Not to mention most colleges live and die with the amount of money they received from alumni.
Ok so I’m going to college I’m not a ball player but my family is poor. I get a call that the lights are going to be turned off. Is the college going to give me some money? Why not? What because I don’t make the college money? I disagree to play basketball at a college like KU is a privilege, not a right that comes with a salary. In fact any young person that can receive help with their college education should be thankful instead of greedy.
Besides as somebody already pointed out. If these kids need the money so bad and right now, because his family who raised him in poverty for over 18 years can’t live another day being poor. Especially when they see the potential millions that the NBA might be offering. Then go over seas, and get paid. It’s not like the education part of the equation is important anyways
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@DoubleDD One more scenario and I’ll let this subject go.
Mitchell Ballock, from Eudora, in a couple years could be one of the top high school basketball players in the country.
Coming from a small town, many locals will start to build him up as a future D1 basketball star–maybe even future NBA star. Many kids from around town will idolize him. Local merchants will sell jerseys with his number and name on it. Go to Eudora basketball games, and hundreds will be wearing that jersey with “KU” or “Duke” emblazoned across the front of it. Merchants are making thousands of dollars selling these shirts.
His name and number are being used–possibly without his permission.
Should he be entitled to any of the profits off the sale of those shirts?
P.S. This same scenario happened in Ottawa two years ago with Semi Ojeleye, now at Duke.
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I’ve a serious problem with all this reference to people “living in poverty.” And I’ve also an apprehension for people to identify their ethnic background as relevant to the process. That said, my ancestors immigrated from Europe before the Civil War, fought in it, became paraplegic because of it, yet married, worked & had extremely large families that succeeded from their desire & diligence to do that, while toiling their lives at methodical tasks like loomers & dirt farmers to put food on the table, and am willing to wager that 75% of the membership here has heritage of just this fashion. Most younger rats on this blog have a real problem understanding economics/hardships prior to the days of sign & drive autos or relating truly “going without” into their own life equations. By younger, I reference to about a 1975 birth date or more recent.
First off define poverty. Is it a tube tv & not an led, is it digital reception or satellite/cable, is it dial up instead of wifi? Is it a flip phone & not smart? See my point? Some of us older guys/gals grew up DAMN POOR, but were raised to live within means as there was just not options for installment loans, credit cards, or other options to rectify economic improvement without physically working for it. This is the way proud, honest, God fearing people were raised & lived. I was mowing yards with a reel mower when I was 8 years old & running a diswasher in a coffee shop/restaurant & baling hay about 12… People born after say 1980 perceive much of what they see economically completely different. They see a government & society that throws other peoples money around at all kinds of problems & always has, and not beyond the money itself. And my opinion is that the denigration of the American family is a real culprit in this process of unaccountability for our own situations. Is entirely too easy to shift the ownership of one’s problems to another entity & ignore the true factors, and many people of my children’s generation have never existed in a world that was different. Like I said previously- we have one entire generation of people who are perfectly comfortable living off of someone else, be it their parents, their governments, handouts or crime. Hell if I didn’t give a shit about how I put food on my childrens’ table when we thank the Lord for it, I’d have to consider being a damn drug dealer, liquor store proprietor, or just moving to Colorado. When I was a kid if you had a car, that was a luxury-a garage to put it in? Tall cotton. My Dad drove a 1929 Ford until about 1958 when he upgraded to a 53 Belair. His priorities were in order, but he died in 59 so it was back to square one for Mom & 3 dependent children. She worked split shifts at menial employment & did what she needed to do to own up to her responsibilities. She never took a penny from social assistance & we never went hungry. Oft times we didn’t eat that well, & when there wasn’t enough bacon to feed 4 people, we soaked up the grease with bread & went on. I’m willing to bet that there are a lot of rats on this board that will never be able to relate to the phrase, “Poor people have poor ways.” But when you have your priorities in order, life’s obstructions are steps that must be taken to provide for the children you’ve been given the privilege of loving & raising. And it is a God given privilege to provide for them, as well as the ultimate responsibility of conscience and right. Making babies is absolutely not just a recreational pastime that is without consequences. You are accountable to your children & that’s the bottom line. Where there is a will, the really are ways to accomplish the goal of raising a family the right way. Also I’m assuming most peopledo know right from wrong. What you do with it is entirely up to you.
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I’m not advocating for anyone to “give” the players anything. I am saying that if people are willing to pay them for the use of their likeness, they should be able to.
For example, last year, Jabari Parker cooked up something called Jabari bars. Guess what, he couldn’t sell those and profit from it without putting his scholarship in jeopardy. That’s where I think this has all gone sideways. It’s not that I want the student athlete to be given something. I just want them to have the same ability to generate income for themselves.
If a business sees a student athlete and says “hey, I want that kid to promote my (insert business here)” why is it that that’s illegal. I know you argue that its a slippery slope, but isn’t that business making a business decision about where to allocate their marketing dollars? Would some businesses use it to just shuttle thousands of dollars to athletes? Of course, but in the free marketplace, why should we say a business can’t waste money on a spokesperson.
Do you ever notice that when showing clips promoting the NCAA tournament, the NCAA uses images of players who no longer have eligibility? Do you ever wonder why? It’s because the NCAA (and it’s member schools) own all rights to those images, and they do it without paying any royalties whatsoever. That’s why the NCAA has been fighting this unionization thing. If the student athletes unionize, the whole structure through which the NCAA promotes its events will have to change because the union would require the NCAA to compensate it for the use of the likeness of its former members. That’s what’s coming and that’s why EA Sports stopped making college sports video games. The pro games already pay licensing fees to the pro players associations. The college games did not. The whole structure of the system will change if students are allowed to profit from their name and likeness, or if it is determined that the NCAA cannot use the name and likeness of student athletes without compensation.
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@globaljaybird OUSTANDING,POST. To your point, we have people living below the poverty line living in decent homes or apts with cable, color tv, microwave, car, etc. with plenty of food to eat at that. Responsibility to your children-I never heard my grandparents or parents ever say that phrase but their priorities and actions said that phrase in bright lights.
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@justanotherfan And so goes the college scholarship as we know it–and the game. All for greed !!
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@Wigs2 These young players can have their likeness and get paid it’s called pro ball. You know professional players? Persons that get paid to play a sport. They don’t have to go to college. Yet for some reason they do wonder why?
You pay college players and you upend the very structure of College Sports altogether. However if we are going to go down this rode then there needs to be a college draft. You know so one college doesn’t buy up all the talent. Hey if players are going to get paid then they shouldn’t be able pick what school they go to. They should be drafted. Then after a little time maybe they could create a free agent market freeing the college players to test the market after two years for one team.
I can see it now.
Coach Cal: hey kid come to UK and will give you a candy bar and shoe deal. You’ll make millions before you even play a game.
Recruit: Yea but UCLA wants to use my likeness for a franchise of fast food joints. They’re promising billions.
This is a slippery, slippery mess. Be careful what you ask for. The grass isn’t always greener on the other side.
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@Wigs2 "The elite players don’t go to schools like UMKC. Almost all go to elite basketball programs like KU, UK, Duke, UNC, UCLA. Those programs are not operating in the red. "
In case you never heard of this guy, you should see the bio. Also our nephew played on this squad & had tryouts with the Hawks, Sonics, & Bulls. Could not pass physicals or probably would’ve played somewhere professionally. Ronnie could shoot the lights out, but never looked back. Got the degree & has been a successful businessman & father for 20 years. Tony played a long time & made considerable money doing so. Was Dallas 1st round pick.
