Kansas starting 5
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Alright, let’s get busy… So, the preseason conference predictions have been announced (player of the year, etc.). We know our team, pretty much its strengths and weaknesses. Who will (remember Coach is loyal) be our starting 5? And who would you start?
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Thoughts anyone?
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@Marco I say it’ll be Remy Och CB Jalen and Dave. Harris first off the bench. Pretty salty
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I think the best 5 is Remy, Yesufu, Agbaji, Wilson, Dave. I think we’ll see Harris, Remy, Agbaji, Wilson, Dave though. CB depending on how Self see’s it all fitting.
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Harris is going to start, at least at the beginning of the season. Wilson, McCormack and Agbaji are also more or less locks. Probably Remy gets the other spot.
Yesufu probably should start, but he probably won’t until the conference season gets going. Braun may nudge ahead of Remy (though Remy is likely the better player) because of Self’s loyalty. I’m not quite sure who the best 5 actually is. Probably still some smaller combo - perhaps Yesufu, Remy, Agbaji, Braun and Wilson? I need to see this group play together before I can say on that.
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Coach Self might start players because of seniority and loyalty, but my “crunch time” 5 would be:
Remy (for swag and offense) Yesufu (for passing and defense) Agbaji (for solid defense and 3 point shooting during high pressure situations) J-Dub (for rebounding and defense - not shooting) Big Dave (for offensive versatility and rebounding)
Honorable mention CB: CB tends to underperform in big games against tall athletes. He’s gets his rebounds, but that shouldn’t be his game. He needs to have more swag and be reliable at knocking down big shots in big games. I think his crunch-time minutes need to go elsewhere because he is now an upperclassman and he hasn’t shown the ability to perform come tournament time.
Honorable mention Harris: I love Harris’ game, being so smooth and crafty, but unless he can prove himself during the season that he can be reliable in March, then those crunch-time minutes need to go to Yesufu. Yesufu has already proven himself in March and shown he has the fortitude to handle the pressure of the NCAA tournament.
Honorable mention Martin: Martin is intriguing but it remains to be seen if Coach Self will be able to tolerate a big man shooting threes. It’s something he has never really embraced and over the years has made snide remarks about KU bigs that want to step out beyond the arc. I just don’t see Coach Self changing his colors unless he’s the only one with the hot hand in crunch-time and we had to go with him. Plus, I think Coach Self will inadvertently over-coach the shot right out of Martin.
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@SlickRockJayhawk many good points. But why would Coach Self sign a big man renowned for being an outside shooter, then try to coach it out of him? Clemence is 6’10 and can stroke it from deep too.
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Seems like Harris and CB are Self guys…although they probably can’t both start with Remy/Och/Jalen/McCormick perceived locks. I’ll say CB as the 5th and Self calling Harris his “6th starter”
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@focojayhawk said in Kansas starting 5:
Seems like Harris and CB are Self guys…although they probably can’t both start with Remy/Och/Jalen/McCormick perceived locks. I’ll say CB as the 5th and Self calling Harris his “6th starter”
Last I had heard the last starting spot was between Harris and CB. Will be interesting to see what happens.
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I would rather see Dajuan get it. He has stepped up in big moments and deserves it.
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Starting 5 should be Harris, R. Martin, Agbaji, Wilson, and McCormack with Yesufu, JCL, Braun, and C. Martin being the main bench pieces. Mitch will probably be a situational match up. Pettiford and Clemence probably see spot minutes and Adams and Cuffe probably both redshirt this season.
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I predict that Dave will get injured and Mitch will start at some point in the season, hopefully for a short spell.
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@approxinfinity I predict that Mitch will pretty much be a bench cheerleader this year. He is going to have quit a few DNPs.
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I would go Dave, Wilson, Agbaji, Yesufu and Remy. Harris, Braun, Cam, Long and Clemence the 2nd 5. Adams is the wildcard, might be hard to keep him on the bench.
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@Marco History is against you
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I would be shocked if Yesufu started.
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@approxinfinity said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco History is against you
Damn you, history! … Don’t get me wrong, I like Harris alot. But Yesufu can D up too, and he is a better than just average shooter from deep. I think that he adds more scoring punch, while not giving up much on the defensive end.
I guess what I’m asking, is Remy a PG or a small 2? We have alot of depth and talent. So whoever our point is, he is going to have to pass the ball and not just look for his own shot.
This is a team that needs to pressure on defense, get turnovers and run. Offensively, go quick pace and pass the ball. We have inside players/shooters now, and outside quickness.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@approxinfinity said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco History is against you
Damn you, history! … Don’t get me wrong, I like Harris alot. But Yesufu can D up too, and he is a better than just average shooter from deep. I just think that he adds more scoring punch, while not giving up much on the defensive end. I guess what I’m asking, is Remy a PG or a small 2? We have alot of depth and talent. So whoever our point is, he is going to have to pass the ball and not just look for his own shot.
Yesufu started 7 out of 44 career games at Drake. It’s doubtful he starts over Harris because he’s still learning Self’s system while Harris is entering year 3 in the system. That experience is also probably why Self has leaned towards Harris over Remy as the lead guard at this point.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 and I understand why. I am bigtime onboard Remy being signed, but we have to be careful. We have too much talent and depth to become Remy centric.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 and I understand why. I am bigtime onboard Remy being signed, but we have to be careful. We have too much talent and depth to become Remy centric.
If Remy isn’t the leading scorer for KU this season, KU is in big trouble. Remy Martin fills the biggest need KU had and that was someone who can generate their own offense. Nobody on KU could do that with any consistency last season and made KU incredibly easy to guard.
This offense needs to be Remy-centric because Remy’s skill set is what will allow other players to play to their strengths. Dave is great in a pick and roll situation, Remy’s ability to drive opens that up. Agbaji can hit a corner three or go up for lobs, again Remy’s ability to drive opens that up by making defenses collapse on him. Jalen Wilson can also hit a corner 3 and clean up the offensive glass, again, compliments Remy’s game. Braun and JCL are best in catch and shoot situations and Remy’s driving compliments that because those guys should get plenty of open looks on kick outs. Yesufu is another guy who can go get a shot as well and can play both the 1 and 2 so he makes sense as a back up. Dajuan Harris is also capable of hitting an open 3 so don’t be too surprised if that’s one of his biggest attributes on offense behind his passing ability.
Remy Martin is a great college player and was brought in because his game fits perfectly with what Self loves in a PG. Remy is veryuch in the Frank Mason/Sherron Collins mold of PG’s that have thrived under Self.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 and I understand why. I am bigtime onboard Remy being signed, but we have to be careful. We have too much talent and depth to become Remy centric.
If Remy isn’t the leading scorer for KU this season, KU is in big trouble. Remy Martin fills the biggest need KU had and that was someone who can generate their own offense. Nobody on KU could do that with any consistency last season and made KU incredibly easy to guard.
This offense needs to be Remy-centric because Remy’s skill set is what will allow other players to play to their strengths. Dave is great in a pick and roll situation, Remy’s ability to drive opens that up. Agbaji can hit a corner three or go up for lobs, again Remy’s ability to drive opens that up by making defenses collapse on him. Jalen Wilson can also hit a corner 3 and clean up the offensive glass, again, compliments Remy’s game. Braun and JCL are best in catch and shoot situations and Remy’s driving compliments that because those guys should get plenty of open looks on kick outs. Yesufu is another guy who can go get a shot as well and can play both the 1 and 2 so he makes sense as a back up. Dajuan Harris is also capable of hitting an open 3 so don’t be too surprised if that’s one of his biggest attributes on offense behind his passing ability.
Remy Martin is a great college player and was brought in because his game fits perfectly with what Self loves in a PG. Remy is veryuch in the Frank Mason/Sherron Collins mold of PG’s that have thrived under Self.
I said too Remy-centric, didn’t say that he shouldn’t lead us in scoring. You tend to be so cut and dry, at times, so academic that you don’t even leave room for conjecture.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 and I understand why. I am bigtime onboard Remy being signed, but we have to be careful. We have too much talent and depth to become Remy centric.
If Remy isn’t the leading scorer for KU this season, KU is in big trouble. Remy Martin fills the biggest need KU had and that was someone who can generate their own offense. Nobody on KU could do that with any consistency last season and made KU incredibly easy to guard.
This offense needs to be Remy-centric because Remy’s skill set is what will allow other players to play to their strengths. Dave is great in a pick and roll situation, Remy’s ability to drive opens that up. Agbaji can hit a corner three or go up for lobs, again Remy’s ability to drive opens that up by making defenses collapse on him. Jalen Wilson can also hit a corner 3 and clean up the offensive glass, again, compliments Remy’s game. Braun and JCL are best in catch and shoot situations and Remy’s driving compliments that because those guys should get plenty of open looks on kick outs. Yesufu is another guy who can go get a shot as well and can play both the 1 and 2 so he makes sense as a back up. Dajuan Harris is also capable of hitting an open 3 so don’t be too surprised if that’s one of his biggest attributes on offense behind his passing ability.
Remy Martin is a great college player and was brought in because his game fits perfectly with what Self loves in a PG. Remy is veryuch in the Frank Mason/Sherron Collins mold of PG’s that have thrived under Self.
How much depth and talent does this team have? Alot. I do not want to see only two guys scoring all year, then after getting a high seed getting beat early in the tournament. This is the deepest team that we have had since '08 (I said depth, not talent - though this team is talented). The ball needs to be shared.
I do not want us to be another Aldrich/Collins team (early exit), which - very similar - is probably what the Doke/Dotson team would have been too. This team needs to get players involved, everyone looking to pass and then take the shot if they have it. How deep are we?
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How Remy’s style of play works under Self is definitely something to monitor.
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@BShark thank you. @Texas-Hawk-10 I like your opinions and you are important here in Jayhawk land. But understand, I know basketball too.
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Basically the loose cannon aspect. He is unlikely to change, and we know Self in general isn’t changing.
I do think he will be a good player. I think ultimately Harris and Remy both start.
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@BShark said in Kansas starting 5:
Basically the loose cannon aspect. He is unlikely to change, and we know Self in general isn’t changing.
I do think he will be a good player. I think ultimately Harris and Remy both start.
Yes, that is what I am saying. The guy occasionally ignores other players, while trying to get his. That might fly at Arizona State, but with the depth and talent that we have? It is a no bueno.
McCormack and Wilson, Agbaji and everyone else watching him constantly dribble drive? I don’t think so. I am glad that we have him, and said so. But there is a reason why NBA teams didn’t want to draft him - he is too small to be a two, and needs to learn how to be a point guard.
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Not really about this year but…Bobby is going to be a good one.
As far as recruits go I think Dick should be a 5*. Zuby to me looks really good, high potential and just getting better all the time. Udeh I think could benefit from Danny Manning, not seeing much skill there. Clean up guy that Self will also create angles to dunk for. I do like his rebounding and defense.
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@BShark am I missing something? Danny Manning coming back to Kansas?
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@Marco Nope. Just saying Udeh is a player that could have benefited from him being on the staff.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 and I understand why. I am bigtime onboard Remy being signed, but we have to be careful. We have too much talent and depth to become Remy centric.
If Remy isn’t the leading scorer for KU this season, KU is in big trouble. Remy Martin fills the biggest need KU had and that was someone who can generate their own offense. Nobody on KU could do that with any consistency last season and made KU incredibly easy to guard.
This offense needs to be Remy-centric because Remy’s skill set is what will allow other players to play to their strengths. Dave is great in a pick and roll situation, Remy’s ability to drive opens that up. Agbaji can hit a corner three or go up for lobs, again Remy’s ability to drive opens that up by making defenses collapse on him. Jalen Wilson can also hit a corner 3 and clean up the offensive glass, again, compliments Remy’s game. Braun and JCL are best in catch and shoot situations and Remy’s driving compliments that because those guys should get plenty of open looks on kick outs. Yesufu is another guy who can go get a shot as well and can play both the 1 and 2 so he makes sense as a back up. Dajuan Harris is also capable of hitting an open 3 so don’t be too surprised if that’s one of his biggest attributes on offense behind his passing ability.
Remy Martin is a great college player and was brought in because his game fits perfectly with what Self loves in a PG. Remy is veryuch in the Frank Mason/Sherron Collins mold of PG’s that have thrived under Self.
How much depth and talent does this team have? Alot. I do not want to see only two guys scoring all year, then after getting a high seed getting beat early in the tournament. This is the deepest team that we have had since '08 (I said depth, not talent - though this team is talented). The ball needs to be shared.
I do not want us to be another Aldrich/Collins team (early exit), which - very similar - is probably what the Doke/Dotson team would have been too. This team needs to get players involved, everyone looking to pass and then take the shot if they have it. How deep are we?
The 2008 team went a legit 10 deep because of the talent level on that team. 8 guys played in the NBA at some point off that team I believe. You just said it yourself, this team doesn’t have that level of talent which also means that this team doesn’t have the quality of depth to go 10 deep.
I’m also not sure where you’re getting me thinking this year is a two man team from. I think the scoring balance on this team probably looks most similar to the 2016-17 team with Mason and Jackson and had 4 guys in double digits. I think Remy is going to be in the 17-18 ppg range, I think Agbaji is going to be around 15 ppg, I think McCormack is in the 13-14 ppg range, and Jalen Wilson around 10 ppg. I think most of the rest of the rotation players are in the 6-8 ppg range with Harris probably being at the bottom of the scoring list among rotation guys because that’s not his game.
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I think the top 6 players are certainly pretty good. Self will figure out the bench rotations.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@BShark said in Kansas starting 5:
Basically the loose cannon aspect. He is unlikely to change, and we know Self in general isn’t changing.
I do think he will be a good player. I think ultimately Harris and Remy both start.
Yes, that is what I am saying. The guy occasionally ignores other players, while trying to get his. That might fly at Arizona State, but with the depth and talent that we have? It is a no bueno.
McCormack and Wilson, Agbaji and everyone else watching him constantly dribble drive? I don’t think so. I am glad that we have him, and said so. But there is a reason why NBA teams didn’t want to draft him - he is too small to be a two, and needs to learn how to be a point guard.
Remy Martin’s assist rate rate last year was 23% which was higher than Garrett or Harris last season and 26% in 2019-20 which was higher than Dotson’s or Garrett’sthat year. His usage rate was at 29.1% the past two years which was basically identical to McCormack last season and Remy’s usage rate in 2019-2] actually wasn’t even the highest on his team that year.
The notion that Remy Martin is a ball hog and unwilling passer really isn’t supported by his actual numbers from the past two seasons.
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Would Self ever implement the ‘platoon’ strategy? Two teams of 5, swapping out and exploiting different weaknesses and wearing teams down?
To clarify, I’m sure he would mix and match, but with 10 capable players perhaps he could develop some units and keep everyone playing at a peak.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 Nice of you to clarify.
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Ok , so I know that we were/are suppose to have some kind of a closed scrimage don’t know who - - don’t know when - -don’t know where, all I have heard sometime this month. - -Just curious wondering if anything had leaked out about when it was happening OR if it has happened how it go ?
I read and heard Again KJ Adams is impressing a lot in practices and such saying with us going 10 deep he could easily see the floor. Maybe we got a sleeper
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They will play Tulsa in a closed scrimmage on the 30th in Tulsa
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The box score will be leaked, probably immediately after the scrimmage lol.
Worth noting they aren’t anything close to real games. Often times the coaches will work on particular things, they will do scenarios etc
KJ plays hard, that goes a long way with Bill. I think he will be an emergency minutes guy this year.
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@BeddieKU23 said in Kansas starting 5:
They will play Tulsa in a closed scrimmage on the 30th in Tulsa
Ahh Ok I appreciate that I hadn’t heard anything must of just flat missed it . lol thanks again - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark said in Kansas starting 5:
The box score will be leaked, probably immediately after the scrimmage lol.
Worth noting they aren’t anything close to real games. Often times the coaches will work on particular things, they will do scenarios etc
KJ plays hard, that goes a long way with Bill. I think he will be an emergency minutes guy this yea
Thanks bud, I guess I’m just not up to snuff on these things lol. - Ya kinda thought it would be just a glorified practice hell they may not even try to keep track of any kind of score. Like you was saying and or I was thinking a controlled scrimmage. Maybe situations will sit up scenario’s of all out full court pressure and such right ? - - -thanks for the help guy - - BUT only 12 more days till it really happens , True exhibition against Emporia St ? - - Let’s DO THIS -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@BShark said in Kansas starting 5:
The box score will be leaked, probably immediately after the scrimmage lol.
Worth noting they aren’t anything close to real games. Often times the coaches will work on particular things, they will do scenarios etc
KJ plays hard, that goes a long way with Bill. I think he will be an emergency minutes guy this year.
Who does KJ play over though? He’s not skilled enough to be a 3 and not strong enough yet to be a 4. I think with the experience level of this team, Self will end up redshirting him and Cuffe. Unless KJ turns into Draymond, at 6-7 and being listed as a PF, he doesn’t have an NBA future and will be at KU 4-5 years.
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@Marco Yeah, good points. It’s my perception that Self can often times over-coach guys on what a “good shot” is, i.e., don’t take that three-pointer until the end of the shot clock, and only if your toes are just behind the line, etc., such that I think it can get in a guys head and reduce his three point percentage. We’ll see once the season gets rolling if Cam remains a good 3 point shooter and if he feels like he can shoot at will, or if he goes cold and turns down open looks early in the shot clock. I’m hoping he endures Self’s coaching with regard to his shooting. Rock Chalk!
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@Texas-Hawk-10 By emergency minutes I mean foul trouble/injury situations. I have no doubt he is a max time at KU player as well. I have not heard RS talk with him but could see it happening.
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@BShark I like Adams game. What is he going to be though? Seems that somewhere I read that Coach thinks he is a big guard - if true, that would serve him well.
Lost in all of our chatter is that we already have Clemence who no one is talking about (what is the skinny on him, so far?), and Dick, Zuby and Udeh, and hopefully Rice coming in next year, with more to come.
I have seen the KJ highlights, he can ball. I don’t think he will redshirt, just don’t see it. In fact, I think it will be damn hard to keep him off the court. Imo, he’ll get pt at the 3 and 2. He is more athletic than people give him credit for being, and has more than good handles. If he finds a consistent outside shot, look out. A 6’7 physically imposing 2 guard…
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He is not a guard.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@BShark I like Adams game. What is he going to be though? Seems that somewhere I read that Coach thinks he is a big guard - if true, that would serve him well.
Lost in all of our chatter is that we already have Clemence who no one is talking about (what is the skinny on him, so far?), and Dick, Zuby and Udeh, and hopefully Rice coming in next year, with more to come.
I have seen the KJ highlights, he can ball. I don’t think he will redshirt, just don’t see it. In fact, I think it will be damn hard to keep him off the court. Imo, he’ll get pt at the 3 and 2. He is more athletic than people give him credit for being, and has more than good handles. If he finds a consistent outside shot, look out. A 6’7 physically imposing 2 guard…
If KJ Adams plays one second at the 2 for KU, something has gone terribly wrong with KU’s season. He’s listed at 6-7, 225 lbs. on KU’s site and everywhere has him listed at a PF.
Even if you think he’s a 2, that’s an even more difficult pathway to minutes than the 4 because that’s probably the deepest position on the roster with R. Martin, Yesufu, Pettiford, Braun, and JCL all being capable of playing the two spot if needed. The 4 spot has Wilson, Agbaji and maybe Braun in a small ball line up, maybe Clemence, maybe Cam Martin.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@BShark I like Adams game. What is he going to be though? Seems that somewhere I read that Coach thinks he is a big guard - if true, that would serve him well.
Lost in all of our chatter is that we already have Clemence who no one is talking about (what is the skinny on him, so far?), and Dick, Zuby and Udeh, and hopefully Rice coming in next year, with more to come.
I have seen the KJ highlights, he can ball. I don’t think he will redshirt, just don’t see it. In fact, I think it will be damn hard to keep him off the court. Imo, he’ll get pt at the 3 and 2. He is more athletic than people give him credit for being, and has more than good handles. If he finds a consistent outside shot, look out. A 6’7 physically imposing 2 guard…
If KJ Adams plays one second at the 2 for KU, something has gone terribly wrong with KU’s season. He’s listed at 6-7, 225 lbs. on KU’s site and everywhere has him listed at a PF.
Even if you think he’s a 2, that’s an even more difficult pathway to minutes than the 4 because that’s probably the deepest position on the roster with R. Martin, Yesufu, Pettiford, Braun, and JCL all being capable of playing the two spot if needed. The 4 spot has Wilson, Agbaji and maybe Braun in a small ball line up, maybe Clemence, maybe Cam Martin.
Good points one and all. Self said that he could be a two, not me. My point being, at what position(s) is he going to play? And if he does play, whose minutes is he going to take? He is not going to redshirt.
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@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@Texas-Hawk-10 said in Kansas starting 5:
@Marco said in Kansas starting 5:
@BShark I like Adams game. What is he going to be though? Seems that somewhere I read that Coach thinks he is a big guard - if true, that would serve him well.
Lost in all of our chatter is that we already have Clemence who no one is talking about (what is the skinny on him, so far?), and Dick, Zuby and Udeh, and hopefully Rice coming in next year, with more to come.
I have seen the KJ highlights, he can ball. I don’t think he will redshirt, just don’t see it. In fact, I think it will be damn hard to keep him off the court. Imo, he’ll get pt at the 3 and 2. He is more athletic than people give him credit for being, and has more than good handles. If he finds a consistent outside shot, look out. A 6’7 physically imposing 2 guard…
If KJ Adams plays one second at the 2 for KU, something has gone terribly wrong with KU’s season. He’s listed at 6-7, 225 lbs. on KU’s site and everywhere has him listed at a PF.
Even if you think he’s a 2, that’s an even more difficult pathway to minutes than the 4 because that’s probably the deepest position on the roster with R. Martin, Yesufu, Pettiford, Braun, and JCL all being capable of playing the two spot if needed. The 4 spot has Wilson, Agbaji and maybe Braun in a small ball line up, maybe Clemence, maybe Cam Martin.
Good points one and all. Self said that he could be a two, not me. My point being, at what position(s) is he going to play? And if he does play, whose minutes is he going to take? He is not going to redshirt.
KJ is a 4 and I don’t see an obvious pathway to minutes for him this season barring injury. He’ll likely be the 13th man in the rotation this season and that means his minutes would probably be around 50 for the season at most. It’s not a knock on him or his ability, but the reality of this upcoming season is it’s very possible none of the freshmen end up playing rotation level minutes this season. Another reality is that Clemence and Pettiford do have clearer pathways to minutes this season because of the roster composition. The only big man that I would say Adams could beat out is Mitch and even then I would take Mitch at this point due to his experience.
KJ isn’t a threat to leave for the NBA early and doesn’t have an obvious spot to contribute this season, so redshirting him makes a ton of sense and he should have a strong chance of being a rotation guy in 2022-23 assuming Wilson leaves after this season as expected.
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Given the recruiting priorities, KJ would be one I’d have on transfer watch. As of now, I think the starting 5 is Harris, Remy, Och, Wilson, Dave. Word has been Harris has outplayed Remy so far.
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@FarmerJayhawk said in Kansas starting 5:
Given the recruiting priorities, KJ would be one I’d have on transfer watch.
Yeah hearing similar.
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@FarmerJayhawk man, I was afraid of that.
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I bet he sticks
