Chalmers Decision



  • The Old site posed the question and it’s something I’ve actually been thinking about for a little while, if you’re Chalmers do you chase the championships still having the big 3 or do you leave for a few million more per year?



  • @HawkInMizery It’s an interesting decision, which ironically I don’t think has anything to do with winning more championships.

    Chalmers is a guy who I believe could have just as easily found himself in the D-league and out of basketball within a few years had he not landed in the perfect spot. Put Chalmers in the position of say…Tyshawn Taylor. Comes in and is behind an all-star caliber point guard (in Tyshawn’s case Deron Williams) and another established NBA vet backing him up. Has Mario really shown anything in his NBA career to lead us to believe he would have forced his way onto the court in that situation, especially early in his career? The NBA is so much about circumstance & opportunity for it’s non-star players. So instead Chalmers lands with the Heat, and only has to beat out Chris Quinn. The Heat never invest in a PG upgrade, so throughout his career he’s only had to contend with the likes of Carlos Arroyo & Norris Cole for playing time. And his mediocrity is not only overlooked, but often embraced. The Heat only ask that he isn’t a liability. He doesn’t bear the responsibility of having to be a net plus. The only things Mario has to do is what he’s already good at - keep the defense honest by shooting a respectable (if not great) percentage from behind the arc, and play solid (again, if not great) defense.

    So should he leave that? Depends on who is offering I guess. If he goes to the wrong situation, he could be exposed. At age 28, if he signs a 4-5 year deal and disappoints, could that mean the end of his NBA career? Not outside the realm of possibility.

    However…if this is likely his last chance at a decent sized contract before entering the twilight years of his career, should he not seek to maximize it and set himself and his family up as well as possible?

    Also to consider is the make-up of the Heat going forward. Wade is really aging and is a shell of his former self. There is talk that Lebron could leave for Cleveland (maybe not a great chance, but there is talk). So Mario will likely have to look at the Heat situation and determine whether that will still be the perfect fit for him in the future.

    And I hope this doesn’t come off as Mario-bashing. I loved the guy at KU, and am very happy that he was able to find his niche in the league. I just think at the end of the day, he’s a fairly average NBA player, and those guys are always at risk for either someone better coming along and taking their job or someone who is also average but cheaper coming along and thus becoming a salary cap casualty.



  • I have often wondered if Mario was happy there. I hate they way he’s treated, but maybe the rings are worth it?? Not a bad place to live either.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 How is he treated?



  • @icthawkfan316 I think LBJ disrespects him.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 Hmm. Maybe. I don’t follow the NBA that closely, but I always got the impression that Mario was part of the “cool clique” within the circle of Heat players. I thought he & Lebron were cool. But I could be dead wrong. Idk



  • @icthawkfan316 I don’t follow that closely either, have just seen clips of LBJ hollering at Mario, not helping him up, etc.



  • @Crimsonorblue22

    I think that is mostly in the past and also, it is not unusual for veteran superstars to disrespect newbies. Chalmers has a good thing going in Miami. He is the fourth highest paid player in the team and other that he big three, only Hasslem makes more and not by much and all the rest make considerably less; in comparison Beasley makes only $800K per year. Mario is in the third year of a 3 year contract that pays him $4M per year. With the top 3 taking close to $20M per year a piece, there is not much money left without incurring the luxury tax.



  • @JayHawkFanToo it will be interesting to see what happens!



  • In BOTH of Miami’s Finals series/championships, there was 1 game where Chalmers saved the Heat’s bacon. In one he had 25pts. Delivered BIG in crunchtime, with everything on the line. His own swagger is well-earned. Chalmers thinks HE should be taking the “last shot”. Always the PTP’er–> if you ask him, he definitely thinks he belongs. Always a winner.

    Agree totally with those above who feel Chalmers has found his niche with the Heat (which may not transfer over to another role on another team)…and while I really like Norris Cole, I never trust pro team’s rosters to stay intact for too long. To have DWade + Haslem stay with the Heat all these years is very noteworthy…but obviously that may be soon to end.



  • I’m not really a Heat fan, but I like Mario and I like their venue in Miami so I take in a game now and then.

    I’ve always felt there is some friction between Mario and LeBron. I’ve seen LeBron really go after Mario in a violent manner (like he wanted some). Mario has absorbed quite a bit, but he got sick of it and started fighting back. I even saw a clip where Mario went after LeBron like he wanted some of him.

    It is easy to think that all of that bantering is bad for team unity and chemistry… but who knows. Maybe it helps them all stay on edge. I think the seasons are way too long and after winning a few rings what is left? Is it really a big deal to win so many you are compared to other great teams from the past? In a certain way it has an eerie feeling… like retirement is coming up quick for these guys.

    I didn’t used to like LeBron. But in recent years he has earned plenty of respect in my books. There is no question he has an ego and plenty of swagger… but isn’t that what we want to see with players?

    What really bumped Miami into a higher caliber of ball wasn’t the big three… it was Riley carefully going after extra pieces to round out the team. Ray Allen was a huge snag. He clearly won them a championship last year. Now there is a guy I have total respect for. And no one can challenge the fact that Riley belongs at the very top of basketball accolades. He knows the game as good as anyone ever to coach, and he’s played it right as a GM, including hiring Spoelstra to do the impossible… get a team to operate at a high caliber with egos in all corners, from players on up to the GM.

    And how about the bird man Andersen? That guy knows he has to bring energy with him and make plays to jack up the team… and he does. Another big piece for that team.

    I could see Mario going elsewhere for the right kind of deal. The thing is… where is he going to find a better deal? Mario is a great player but he isn’t one of the league’s premiere PGs. He is more of a role player, making everyone else look better. In some ways he reminds me of Collison with OKC. Different position, but same hustle and same team attitude and unselfishness.



  • I’m a big Mario fan and will pull for the Heat bc of this. Keep in mind LBJ never won a championship until he teamed up w Mario! And Mario gave up his jersey #6 for him…hopefully for some cash…

    @icthawkfan316 I don’t think he’s an all star but I think he’s under-rated. Like @ralster said he comes up big in big games. He defers a LOT to the big 3. Put him on another team and he could average 15-18 ppg IMHO.

    Wonder if Mario ever asks D Wade over to the house to watch the '03 final four semi-final?



  • @VailHawk Yes he’s had a couple of big games in the finals. But you say put him on another team and he could average 15-18 ppg. The flip side is, put him on another team where teams don’t have to game plan defensively for Lebron, Wade, & Bosh and how does he do? We don’t know, but the point is he certainly benefits in Miami from being able to fly under the radar.

    Really, if you were an NBA GM picking a point guard, would Mario be in the top 10? Surely not. Bottom 10? Probably not? Middle 10…yeah that’s probably right. Hence = average.

    Westbrook, Rondo, Chris Paul, Deron Williams, Tony Parker, Kyrie Irving, Derek Rose, John Wall, Stephen Curry, Damien Lillard, Kemba Walker…that’s 11 easy off the top of my head. Then out of the group of Ty Lawson, Ricky Rubio, Michael Carter-Williams, Mike Conley, Kendall Marshall, Trey Burke, Brandon Knight…a few of those are probably better than Mario too.

    So I stand by my statement that he is a fairly average NBA player.



  • @icthawkfan316 Well said, I don’t think he should leave either. I mean sure more money would be nice we could all use more money. But a true competitor wants the chance to win. Where else offers him the chance to win like he has now? and not only that but as you said he’s only asked to not be a liability not to be a playmaker or dime dropper. He came up clutch last year down the stretch in the series with the Spurs but he was ready for that. I think he has a really good situation going down there he has a chance for 3 or 4 more rings probably which would put him up there with some big dogs.



  • @Crimsonorblue22 The thing with LBJ , I think was a little blown out of proportion. All of the big 3 at points would yell at Rio or get in his grill during a game but there was an interview with LBJ and they talked aobut how they loved himand were toughening him up. LBJ said he was like the little brother.



  • @drgnslayr I totally agree with your point about Riley, they pulled off an impossible feat getting everyone on the same page and then made sure the right “little guys” were in place to give it that extra push. I lvoe the way Birdman plays and of course Ray Allen has always been a scorer, best pure jump shot ever hands down.



  • I think Mario should stay because he’s not an all star caliber guard, so the market for him isn’t going to be mind blowing. The Heat will probably give him a modest raise (especially since it’s likely that guys like Haslem, Allen and Battier are at the end of their careers and may free up money in the next year or two). But Mario has an almost perfect pro situation - he’s in a great destination, plays on a great team, isn’t asked to do anything out of his comfort zone and makes a solid amount.

    Say he were to take the money and go to a new team. He would either have to go to a good team as a backup (somewhere like Memphis, San Antonio, Golden State, Clippers, etc) or move to a weaker team to start (Philadelphia, New Orleans, New York, etc.). I don’t think the teams in the middle could give him significantly more money than the Heat would, especially considering Mario isn’t the type of player that could lead you to a championship. He’s a piece of a championship roster, but he’s not one of the building blocks. He’s a guy that needs to be no better than your fourth or fifth best player if you have designs on winning a title. If he’s your third best guy, you’re probably in some trouble.



  • @HawkInMizery

    “Ray Allen has always been a scorer, best pure jump shot ever hands down.”

    Spot on! Television never does sports justice, but I’ve sat court side and sat just a few feet away from watching Allen shoot and it was worth the money to experience that. I’ve never seen anyone with such a fluid and lightning quick release. He looks like a machine.

    If anyone in here gets that opportunity to sit close for a heat game please, please go for it! You won’t be disappointed! It is one of my greatest moments I’ve ever experienced in the game and watching Allen shoot up close should be on every basketball fans bucket list!



  • @drgnslayr I’ve posted this before -I’d suggest everyone get a great seat close to the court for a KU game as well. The explosiveness and agility players have do not come across on TV or further away from the court. These days even the bigs are phenomenal athletes, much much better than they were in the 70’s. Other than better training and nutrition, I suspect one reason is AAU club teams. To my knowledge they did not exist in the 70’s- at least in KC.



  • @drgnslayr I have never seen him in person but i’ve always enjoyed watching him. I’ll be down in Miami for my honeymoon in the fall so hopefully they will be playing at home and he will still be on the roster. I want get that experience that you had.



  • Man, I just like my superstars! They have such rare gifts, and each has unique talents: Consider the bigtime skills of MJ, LBJ, Kevin Durant, Kobe, Duncan, Nowitzki, DWade, etc… I’m just some joe-average dude that still plays, but really enjoy watching the best of the best, no matter who they are. LeBron and KD have my total respect. So does DWade, since 2006 when he + Shaq won it all. LeBron James has, what, maybe 3-4more years in his “prime”, depending on how he holds up physically…(see Kobe is done, I think). So I want LeBron to make a run at the record books. Not many athletes have the chance and ability to do what he is trying to do. I rode the ups & downs with MJ, and am doing the same with LeBron, especially since he arrived in Miami as a legit superstar. He actually has a team built around him, and everybody knows their role. Teamball alone cannot win…gotta have some PTP’ers in crunchtime, as the Heat beat the Pacers on their home floor in game5, with the ending being nothing but total dominance by LeBron + DWade (with the reverse dunk) right when it mattered most. Now give Miami home court advantage for game6, and I knew Miami wasnt going to lose. Spurs will be a real test, as that is a well rounded team, with some PTPers as well.



  • Since we are talking NBA, lets contrast 2 6’4 guards: Lance Stephenson and DeWayne Wade. Wade on the decline, but it was his and Pat Riley’s idea to bring his buddy LBJ to Miami in the first place. They were consciously trying to extend Wade’s career, and carefully build a team. They succeeded. But look at DWade’s FG%: now up to 55%, which is simply the highest FG% for any guard in the NBA. He quit launching 200+ treys a season, with less than 50 this season. He plays to his strengths, and has the team to do so. To quote DWade: “If I like winning, I’d be a fool NOT to let LeBron lead.”

    Now consider Lance Stephenson. The next “head-case” in the NBA. Kid has undeniable talent, but poor judgement. The things he said and did after Larry Bird had a talk with him and told him not to. Wow. Said he wanted to run DWade around to hurt his knees. Called LeBron “weak”. Then there is the psychiatric stuff of blowing in LeBron’s ear, or caressing LeBron’s chin in public–just wow. Pure Dennis Rodman stuff there. His own teammates thought at best it was unneccesary distraction, and at worst, it provoked and fired up LeBron James, which is the last thing you want to do to somebody who is unstoppable to begin with. Either I’m glad Lance Stephenson picked Cincinnati over KU, or I feel sorry for him…maybe he might have learned something from Bill Self?. Felt very uncomfortable watching Lance Stephenson. Credit LeBron James for remaining totally professional throughout the obvious provocations.



  • @HawkInMizery sounds like a fun honeymoon! If Mario had a chance w/ a different team, better offer, would he want it? I give him more props than others here, would love to see if he could help carry a team, more than he is allowed now.



  • To me the whole argument about how good Mario is seems kind of pointless.

    I know that it’s something that people think is fun about sports, but to me analyzing where he ranks in comparison to the likes of Russell Westbrook, Chris Paul, Derrick Rose, etc. seems stupid. Because this isn’t an alternate reality. “If you were a GM who suddenly got to pick from the crop of phenomenal point guards in the NBA, who would you choose?” Stop yourself right there because that’s asinine. This isn’t fantasy basketball. It’s like saying if the other team hadn’t turned the ball over 30 times, KU would’ve lost. Ok, well they did. This is reality. Not fantasy world (just a hypothetical example of course). Mario’s an average player? Ok. He’s an average player with two NBA titles (and possibly another in the near future). As everyone has pointed out, he played a role in winning those titles, and I’m happy with that. How many do those other guys have? Mario’s success is most definitely the product of fortuitous circumstances. But again, this is reality. Not make believe. He’s not on another team. He plays for, and was drafted by, the best team in the NBA. Sorry.

    Maybe Tony Kukoc is a good comparison. If Mario Chalmers is the Tony Kukoc of the Heat, with a few rings to show for it, that’s fine with me as a KU fan.

    As for whether he should leave, personally I believe he should stay for the sole benefit of adding another NBA title to his resume. That’s just my opinion. I can only think of the NBA in terms of how it benefits KU. Personally, I think the NBA is the most heartless and boring professional sport there is. But I digress. So in this case: Titles = Legacy = Legend = Helps KU. To me, I think it’s silly for a guy like Albert Pujols to go to the Angels when he was already a legend in St. Louis (and could have win more titles in STL) for a little more money (maybe I just can’t conceive how much money $250 million really is, but the difference between say $245 million and $250 million…is it really that much?). Same thing with Robinson Cano. But that’s baseball.



  • @ralster You say you want Lebron to make a run at the record books. Do you mean in terms of individual achievements or titles?

    I’m just not a fan of Lebron and the Heat. The way they were put together. I actually didn’t have a problem with Lebron leaving Cleveland. They had failed to put a competent team around him for years. Quick - who’s the best player to play with Lebron during his Cavalier years? Um…Um…right. But the whole conspiring a year before his free agency, and bringing a 2nd guy in with Bosh…it’s just seedy. They basically created a situation where teams have to try and match them with their own “big 3”. An arms race of sorts. And thus we go into every season knowing there’s 2 or 3 teams tops that have a realistic chance to compete for the championship. That would be fine if it was just because Lebron was the best player on the planet (which he is), as it was when Jordan was dominating the league. But that’s not the reason why. Build a team? I don’t know, seems to me more like they cherry picked their way through the league’s all-stars and bought one. Nothing against it, rules-wise. As you said, Riley has done his job masterfully.

    So yeah, the Heat and 2 or 3 contenders every year. Great if you’re a fan of one of those teams, or if you just like your superstars, but bad for the league in my opinion. I’ll be rooting for the Spurs. A team that yes, has it’s own PTPers, but the real genius is in their execution of the game. Even Duncan, who may be the greatest PF ever, isn’t overly dependent on superior athletic gifts. “The Big Fundamental”. Really hoping he and Pop cement their place as the greatest post-Jordan dynasty, and not the all-star assembled Heat.



  • @MoonwalkMafia Asinine? Stupid? Pointless? Really?

    It’s not pointless. No I wasn’t lobbying for a fantasy draft. It provides a context for the question of if he should leave (which is what this entire thread was started for). To do that, we need an understanding of how good Chalmers is compared to other players at his position. It helps us understand how sought after his services might be on the open market. That’s not “bashing him”. That is reality. Is he good enough to go to a team where he is counted on to do more? Would that be in his best interest, or would it be detrimental to his career in the long run? Comparing him to his counterparts is a good way to do that.

    I’m happy he’s won rings. I’m happy he’s found his niche. I don’t care that he’s not the best PG in the NBA. But he’s in a contract year and it’s reasonable to speculate on if he should leave, and to weigh the pros and cons.

    A big pro is that he has a contributing role on the Heat, and should they stay together and avoid significant decline due to aging they likely have a shot at more rings.

    It was brought up that should he have the chance to play elsewhere for more money, should he leave, having already won NBA titles? This is a tougher question to answer. I brought up how good he is because it could affect how many more contracts he gets. If he leaves for more money and underperforms due to increased expectations, does he get another contract? It is not “asinine” to speculate on that possibility.

    And lastly, yes as fans we often think it’s “silly” to leave one situation for more money. It’s easy for us to shrug off millions of dollars. I get your point, that we want what’s best perception-wise for KU. But if Mario leaves to better set up himself and his family, best of luck to him.



  • It is one of the simplest decisions there is.

    If he wants to sit around and goof off for the rest of his life, then he stays put and keeps enjoying his team and winning rings and makes the most of what endorsement opps come from winning ring.

    If he wants to build a business after his playing days, then he opts for the highest bidder and best alternative team. Doing so will force Riley to meet the offer, because Riles knows there are no rings to be had without a natural born winner and money player. Riley, after Mario makes clear he is in this for the money, will pay him anything he wants. Then Mario will get the extra bones he will need to build his business after his playing days and Riles will get his rings.

    Next.



  • @jaybate 1.0 It sure would be nice if that was the case.

    Sadly, I think you are overestimating Mario’s worth (and again, please, nobody take this as a knock on him or me hating on him or whatever). My guess is if Mario tried that play, Riley looks at him, looks at Norris Cole who already cutting into Mario’s time pretty heavily, and let’s Chalmers walk. There’s only a small handful of teams without an established PG, which will likely shrink after the draft when franchises put their money on Dante Exxum or Marcus Smart. Also consider the other free agent PGs hitting the market this year that they could either likely get cheaper - Shaun Livingston, Eric Bledsoe, Isaiah Thomas - or possibly upgrade for not that much more money - could they pry Kyle Lowry from Toronto? - and it’s murky at best. Riley will have options. So if Chalmers tries to play hardball with Riley, he ends up with the Pelicans or the Magic or one of the other very small handful of scrub teams that are willing to pay more than Miami to bring Chalmers in as the starter. And we’ll all shake our collective heads.



  • @ralster

    I remember when we had a lock on Sir Lancelot at KU and I begged online for us to take him when we had the chance.

    I know he appears as a headcase… but he’s just a puppy in a league of big dogs. He’ll come around soon enough, especially since he has incredible talent and still plenty of upside. It won’t be long before his head is the target of younger players making verbal shots at him.

    In reality, Lance took it on the chin for his entire team by doing what he did. He gave his team an out for why they lost AGAIN to the Heat. In the end, it may be a good thing what he did. They may go off from here to next year’s playoff and really focus on the big prize more than they ever have before.

    You got to appreciate how the Heat is using every comment by outside players to help motivate them to play their best basketball. I know we all get down on the NBA for various reasons… but let’s get this clear right now… it’s a league for men, not boys. And to win the big prize it takes men going out there and playing lots of bash ball and high injury risk play in order to win it all. It’s that way now and it’s been that way ever since I started watching basketball as a kid.

    DWade is yet another player that is hard not to respect. He’s been banged up for more than a decade and he is playing some of his best basketball in recent times because he limited his minutes and he is more selective on his shots and finishes. I’d like to have been a fly on the wall listening to Ray Allen and DWade discuss their games amongst themselves. Both of these guys are true professionals of the game, doing whatever they have to do to win the big prize.

    I say all of this and I really am not a Heat fan!



  • @icthawkfan316

    There are plenty of PGs in the league who have game elevated above Mario’s. But that doesn’t mean they are worth more than Mario to the Heat. Mario has been one of those pieces they needed… he’s an unselfish team player. Not everyone can be a highlight player like the three amigos. They win only because of all the quality support role players around them and Mario is one of them.

    What makes Mario valuable is that he does have pretty decent game while still maintaining the unselfish attitude.

    Think about it. Imagine many of the star PGs you mentioned and put them in at Miami and see what happens. They’ll need to add an extra ball to the game to make everyone happy.

    Chalmers is to the Heat what Spoelstra is to the Heat… both fulfill roles between mega egos and talented people. I doubt the Heat wins the last two championships with another coach or without Chalmers.

    But on the open market… things change… and I don’t think Mario (in most cases) has the same market value he has had in the past with the Heat. Problem is… as you mention… he’s starting to lose minutes to Cole. I’m just not sure if Cole has the right head on to stay effective with the Heat. Time will tell. Will Cole have more success and let it get to his head?



  • @HawkInMizery – Think the Heat run of titles is about over. Wade is running on fumes, and LeBron has the feel of moving on to another big contract with big money. I don’t know how Chalmers feel about the Heat, but I would go where the money is.

    Don’t get me wrong the Heat may pony of the cash and overpay just to keep Chalmers. However I have to believe Chalmers will have value on the free agent market.



  • @drgnslayr You could be right. Or guys could be like Ray Allen, who was a superstar but took less money and a reduced role to chase championships.

    There’s also the possibility that as Wade in particular enters the twilight of his career the Heat might need a player at another position to shoulder a bit more of the load. We’ve seen that with some of the Spurs extra pieces having to pick up the slack for an aging core of superstars.

    Don’t get me wrong, I think Chalmers is important to the Heat. He fills his role perfectly. But that role might change. I also don’t think anyone is irreplaceable. The model franchises historically are the ones that cut ties with players when they want more money than the franchise thinks they’re worth. Whether they are role players or stars. Moonwalk threw out Albert Pujols. The Cardinals don’t overpay for anybody. The New England Patriots are the same.

    I really don’t think Cole can outright replace Chalmers. But he’s there and the Heat obviously feel confident in his abilities. So they wouldn’t even need to find a star PG if they decide to let Mario walk. They would only need to find another complimentary piece to maintain the status quo. Someone to play a little more than half the game as Chalmers is now. To me that’s one of indicators in what might happen here - Mario’s playing time. How much do they pony up beyond what they’re giving him now for what I would consider pretty low floor time for a starter?



  • @icthawkfan316

    That’s another part of Chalmer’s “role”… concerning his contract. Who is his agent?

    Life couldn’t be better for Ray Allen. He’s already accomplished winning a championship for the Heat. I’m pretty sure he is one happy camper.

    Another element with Chalmers is he can take on more of the load if need be. He isn’t the most prolific scorer in the league, but he has held his own in long seasonal stints when they needed him to score more. They have used him on last second scoring plays, too, so they must feel comfortable with his ability to score. How perfect is that for Chalmers? He’s got the three amigos to absorb all the defensive pressure so he can pop open for a trey or drive to the rim. And all the amigos have enough size to level effective screens.

    Chalmers caught a huge break out of college.



  • @drgnslayr His agent is Jeff Schwartz, the president & founder of Excel Sports Management. He also represents Livingston, Devan Harris, Jerryd Bayless among 2014 free agent point guards. Paul Pierce, Michael Beasley, Charlie Villanueva, & Emeka Okafor are his big name non-PG free agent clients this off-season.

    And you are right, it is possible the if the Heat want another position player to carry more of the load they could look to Chalmers. Again, my only thing is if they thought he was that good, Norris Cole’s minutes wouldn’t be what they are. But it is possible. I think he has it in him to be more of a contributor.



  • I remember reading somewhere that out of the Heats roster they were at their worst when Chalmers was out of the game. That to me speaks volumes on what type of impact he has on this team. I would have thought when LBJ was out they would be at their worst? I looked for a link but couldnt find one but I know I read it…



  • @Statmachine Well as long as you know you read it…

    LOL. Just messing with you. It sounds like a plus/minus stat to me. I mean, “at their worst” to me can only mean in terms of how much the team outscores their opponent.

    http://www.sportingcharts.com/nba/stats/individual-player-plus-minus-statistics/2013/

    According to this, Bosh actually led the Heat in terms of plus/minus, coming in at +448 over the course of the whole year, or 5.7/game. Lebron was second coming at +409 or 5.3/game. Chalmers was third, at +304 or 4.2/game.

    Of course many statisticians find the plus/minus stat to be heavily flawed. So take that for what it’s worth.

    I tried a google search for anything I could think of to find your Chalmers reference. Came up empty. Even if true, we should probably look at it like the plus/minus stat. I think your instincts are correct when you would think they’d be worse with Lebron out. If it’s not, does that say more about the players or more about the flaw in the stat?



  • @icthawkfan316 It was either last year or the year b4 so I bet he led the plus or minus stat your referancing back then. My typing and gramor get bad when i be drinkin lol. My give a damn get busted



  • @icthawkfan316

    Happily, it really is this simple.

    If you think it through, I think you will see it, too.

    First, I apologize if I mislead you into thinking Mario should play hard ball with Riles. Only amateurs and hacks play hardball in bargaining; that was not at all what I was suggesting Mario do.

    Professionals understand bargaining is just an iterative process of clarifying the overlap of perceived net benefit in doing what they both want to do in the first place.

    People watch too many movies about bargaining.

    Really, the other players perhaps available around the league only come into Riley’s thinking, if he were dissatisfied with Chalmers and actually wanted to make a change. But there is no evidence of that. Norris Cole eating into Chalmer’s minutes doesn’t mean much either. Chalmer’s brings W’s by making things work in the clutch. Frankly, Norris Cole could take all but five of Chalmer’s minutes and not adversely impact Chalmer’s critical contribution to the Heat.

    Chalmers is the guy you want in at the end to win.

    Riley is about winning. He wants to be considered in the ranks of Auerbach and jackson and he can’t be unless he wins some more rings. He’s an old pro at this stuff. He knows he can’t win rings without a guy like Chalmers. He looks around the league at all the names you mentioned and all Riles sees is a bunch of talents at point guard. He sees a bunch of Norris Coles at point guard. But he already has a Norris Cole. He doesn’t need another Norris Cole. He has that base covered. What he needs is the scarcest raw material in basketball. The money player at crunch time that can make the team win on both ends of the floor. All the names you mentioned are just talent. They are guys you replace Norris Coles with, not Mario Chalmers. A professional bargainer understands that distinction instantly.

    If Riley were dissatisfied with Chalmers, and wanting other players, then he would either not be bargaining at all with Chalmers, or he would be telling Chalmers with his first offer that his role on the Heat was to be sharply curtailed and his salary with it. And if Riley were to make that kind of overture, then Chalmers would certainly not waste time bargaining with Riley. He would be focused entirely on moving on for more opportunity and money elsewhere.

    I’m not meaning to be obstinate here with you. I’m just trying to get you to think like professional bargainers think.

    Really, they know exactly what they want and they don’t waste time thinking about all the players around the league. They just focus on the guy they have and find out if there is another guy available and better at what their guy does. If they like the other guy better then they go try an get him. They don’t waste time bargaining with a lesser.

    What most amateurs don’t grasp in these situations is that bargaining ONLY takes place, when both sides WANT to stay married. Chalmers and Riley both probably know they want to stay married. It would be dumb for them not to, unless there is something else afoot.

    But in bargaining, the side writing the checks had to have it proven to them that there really is more money to be had by Chalmers elsewhere. What you apparently naively call hard ball is just sound bargaining. Chalmers has to prove to the man with the check book what his money value is on the open market. And while proving it, Rile’s duty to his organization is to cover his bases in case Chalmers finds so much money he can’t fit under the salary cap.

    Both sides know there is probably no one out on the open market that can do a better job of giving Riles and his team what Chalmers gives them. And if there were, Riles would make good and damn sure he got him, not Chalmers, if the guy were available.

    Its really not complicated at all. What needs to be done is clear to the good minds. How to actually execute it may require a lot of lawyers and accountants, but that’s after the fact.

    Always remember, the object of the game is to win. You win with necessary pieces assembled properly.

    You always look for the best piece. But if you’ve already got the best piece, you don’t go looking for another. You just go through the bargaining process. None of these other guys you mention have produced rings for Riley. Probably none of these other guys have produced rings for the teams they are on. None of these other guys have come in and gotten it done in the clutch for rings. They are just a bunch of Norris Coles. Riles might want to swap one of them for Norris Coles, but not for Mario Chalmers.

    Remember, Riles has played on ring teams. He has coached ring teams. And he has presided over ring teams. He knows the difference between talent and winners.

    The only reason it would not be as simple as I describe would be if if Chalmers were to have lost some of his pop, or were to have an injury. Riles has antennae for that sort of thing. All guys that have been around the game as long as Riles has have the same antennae, too. Riles knows that Chalmers is always limited in the talent department. He knows Chalmers always has to play at the edge of his envelope to do what he does in the NBA. If Riles senses that the wear and tear is eating into Mario’s ability to be money at crunch times, then Mario is already demoted to an old pro that knows how to win and is just supposed to help the youngin’s learn the magic. Winners like to keep winners around in all kinds of ancillary positions. Only amateurs mistake a talent as being the same as a winner.

    In the NBA, or at the top of any organizational activity, the team that wins is the team with the most winners. Winners have talent. But only a few talents are winners.

    Now, I admit I haven’t followed Mario closely enough to know if he were losing his pop, but I would guess its a significant possibility. He played for KU back when Self was still coaching basketball at the edge of the envelope. Three years playing at KU was probably like six years at a lot of other schools. So: Chalmers had some miles on him when he got to the L. Then add in that Chalmers is most definitely undersized and of only average physical ability among players in the L and you know that Chalmers has had to use every ounce of pop in those ligaments and tendons and muscles to stay on the floor every game he has played. Finally, add in that Riles has a history of burning up talent making it play the hard way, the manly man way, and you can figure that even though Mario has only played 5-6 seasons in the L, its like he has played 8-9 on other teams. He most definitely could be verging on permanently lost pop. And Riles won’t hesitate to replace him if his pop has fallen off.

    But if Mario has not lost his edge, then, oh, my yes, it really is this simple.

    Amateurs trying to understand bargaining among professionals just need to keep in mind what the Chicago Bulls were willing to put up with from Dennis Rodman, because their management and Phil Jackson understood that he gave the team exactly what it needed to go with its stars. Rodman was to rebounding and defense at crunch time, what Chalmers is to clutch shooting and disruption defense at crunch time. Remember Rodman was waaaaaaay past his prime, when he played for the Bulls. There were probably 30 players around the league the Bulls could have picked up that had more “talent” than Rodman. But the Bulls didn’t need talent. They needed a guy that could produce at crunch time–a guy with the epic mental toughness to win championships.

    Naive amateurs were forever bad mouthing Rodman. He couldn’t shoot FTs. He couldn’t shoot. He wasn’t tall enough. He was crazy. He was making a mockery of the game. They were basketball naives. Rodman was exactly what the Bulls needed at that position with that bunch of talent. Phil Jackson understood only fools gave away what was needed to get more talent, or to get a more respectable citizen. Rodman probably WAS crazy part of the time. But he could get it done, when it needed to get done like nobody else around the league.

    Stay focused on Rodman one minute more. Why was he so crucial to that team? Lots of guys can go out and get a bunch of reebs. Lots of guys can guard their position. Some of them are even tough. Phil Jackson understood exactly why Rodman was essential. It was that he could do all those things, but one thing more. The only way to keep Jordan’s ego from overwhelming every other player on the team was to have a guy like Rodman that could and would spit in Jordan’s eye. Rodman would look Jordan in the eye and say, “You don’t mean shizz to me, MJ, I already got rings before I ever saw your high priced, bony ass! You NEED ME. I don’t need you.” In short, Rodman could keep Jordan from completely devouring that team and Rodman could become the lightening rod that discharged the constantly building electrical charge between Jordan and Pippen. If Rodman hadn’t been there, Jordan would have utterly crushed Pippen’s ego. He almost did anyway, but Rodman was the guy strong enough to take their combined wrath and scorn, because, truth be told, neither of them could really stand taking it for the team.

    My point here is this: its obvious what Chalmer’s brings at crunch time. But it is not so obvious to people that don’t understand team psychodynamics that Chalmers provides something critical to that team of three big stars. No matter how many rings the Heat win, those three stars have to look at little Mario and know:

    a) they didn’t win them till he got there;

    b) he’s got as many rings as they do; and

    c) he’s got one they’ll never have–the NCAA ring.

    Until you’ve been around really competitive persons, you just can’t appreciate how that NCAA ring sticks in Lebron’s craw. Little Mario walking around the practice floor, the locker room, the airplane, the hotel pool, etc. with the swagger he has is worth sooooooooooo much to that team over the course of a loooooooooong season.

    There is no one else anywhere on planet earth can fill that exact role for the Heat. Riles knows it. Spoelstra knows it. Mario knows it. Mario’s agent knows it. Lebron knows it. The other two stars know it.

    But all good things come to an end and it could be that Mario’s pop has lessened and so the end is here.

    I hope not.

    The Heat are quite a show with Mario.



  • arrogant



  • As you wish.



  • Lefty Gomez famously said…I rather to be lucky than good.

    Chalmers was extremely lucky that he landed at the right position, at the right place and at the right time. Many more talented players enter the NBA under different circumstances and, despite their talent, do not stay in the League long. Look at Xavier Henry; no question the man has talent but he landed at dysfunctional Memphis and then was traded to New Orleans. It is s only after he joined the Lakers, almost on a fluke, that he started to show his true potential; had he not gotten picked up by the Lakers last season, he most; likely would be out of the League.by now.

    Chalmers is in the perfect spot. As PGs go, he is middle of the road, not among elite but not among the bottom feeders either. He might go to another team and become a superstar, since he is an above average defender and capable of scoring when needed; on the other hand, he might have to sit behind a more talented player and get only scrap minutes and quickly fade away into oblivion.

    If the big three stay put in Miami, his best shot is to stay put as he is a proven commodity in the system and an integral part of the team. Wade, who plays a fair amount of PG as does LeBron, has one or maybe two years left in the League and there is no reason why Chalmers could not take his place. If the big three part ways, then there is as good chance that Miami will go on a rebuilding mode and who knows what will happen then.

    I have seen so many people with good jobs leave for what they perceive to be greener pastures only to find out that the new position is more like a California wild fire than the green pasture they envisioned. I have also seen the same thing happen in sports where players in good situations move to another team only to run into bad situations and never recover. Hopefully Chalmers has good advisers that will lead him to the right, long term situation for him.



  • So what if Sherron was drafted by the Heat instead of Mario?



  • @VailHawk and what if he showed up and what if he didn’t put on to much weight, and etc. He might be doing pretty good! I heard he’s lost a lot of that weight.



  • @icthawkfan316 Good discussion about NBA stuff we rarely get into (mostly because I only watch the playoffs, when they play for real, and use most of the bench). I will say I’ve been a Heat fan since DWade + Shaq won it all 8yrs ago, so I am well aware that bringing LeBron to Miami was a calculated decision by BOTH DWade + Riley. We can all speculate on the status of “DWade’s knees”, but I bet DWade knows better than anyone. If he consciously decided to play 2nd fiddle to LeBron, he must have had a really good reason…or a team-oriented ego…or a combo of both.

    One must realize that for YEARS, DWade and LeBron were very close personal friends. So if LeBron was tired of Cleveland, and starts to talk with one of his closest friends in-the-business about it–> how do you know this wasnt DWade’s idea? Man, who wouldnt want to play with their best friend who is soon to be a free agent? Credit DWade for asking the big question: why cant Lebron come here and play with me?

    Another point: Miami needed a tall presence once Alonzo declined, and Chris Bosh adds that dynamic ability of being able to stretch defenses. I saw him playing in the Olympics a few yrs ago with LBJ and Kobe, and didnt even know who he was…but I see how he fits the Heat’s puzzle.

    I really dont like the notion that Miami is doing something new & “built” a three-headed monster team, when we’ve seen multiple big stars on many NBA teams. Paul Pierce + KG in Boston. KD + Westbrook in OKC, should never have traded Harden. Back in the day, it was Zo, Shaq, and DWade. What about the classic Bulls with MJ, Pippen, and Ron Harper (who was a legit superstar in Cleveland by himself)…who agreed to come be a role player alongside MJ?

    I can understand that many thought the ESPN “Announcement” with smoke and mirrors was ‘cheezy’ and over the top. Maybe it was some PR firm’s bad-idea publicity stunt? Who knows. Does it matter? They still have to go out and get the W’s, and the Big3 lost their first Finals. LBJ used that to make himself a better player, which is a good thing for his game and for his team. I’m also well aware of MJ’s comments about LBJ going to Miami, but did MJ forget his years of solo struggle in Chicago before Pippen blossomed under his own nose? And all the pieces put around him with Kukoc and the shooters (Paxson/Kerr)? Maybe MJ needs to realize that DWade maybe didnt think his own knees have that kind of longevity to draft a kid, let him become a superstar alongside, and make an “old-fashioned” champ run? I think the lynchpin in this WHOLE Big3 deal by Miami was DeWayne Wade. I liked Wade in 06, the “quiet type of superstar”, clearly a different type of ego compared to Kobe, who chases off other ‘stars’ & barely on speaking terms with his own teammates. Seems Kobe only learned MJ’s offensive repertoire (not the defensive), and that angry-face Jordan ‘directing traffic’. Never learned to display the charisma MJ is known for. MJ really looked like he was having fun. Not saying everybody has to be smiling, as other good players have some serious game-faces (ever seen John Stockton smile?)

    What I can say about the Heat is this is a team of well-chosen pieces. MJ couldnt win it all without the Jordan-aires (teammates), same for Kobe in LA. LBJ couldnt win it all in Cleveland by himself. The Heat are a well-rounded team. And by the gracious shrewdness of DWade, it is LBJ’s team. They are a team that gets better even within a series. Cannot say that about the Pacers, who quite frankly, faded down the stretch disappointingly for their fans.

    I really do like the Spurs also, as there is a lot to like about them. They also have veteran experience and PTPers. But then, I liked the Spurs when they got Duncan (who is an all-time great), and still had David Robinson. Ginobili and Parker are key guys…but my favorite player on Spurs is probably do-it-all Kawhi Leonard. I think Wiggins could be another Kawhi Leonard, as they both play both ends of the floor.

    Will be a great series, like it was last year! After 8+yrs of doing so, I’ll still be rooting for the Heat. I’d like to see Chalmers get another ring…!



  • @ralster First let me say that no, “the Announcement” doesn’t really matter, and I don’t really care. However, the idea that Miami got it’s “big 3” the same way other teams in the past and present have done is largely inaccurate. As I stated before - it was the way they were put together. Jordan & Pippen were both drafted by a down Bulls franchise. Add Horace Grant from the first 3peat and all three of their premier players were attained via the draft (as was most of the roster in general). From their second 3peat Toni Kukoc was also added via the draft. Now they added other pieces - Rodman & Harper - via free agency, but again the big 3 all drafted. OKC - Durant, Westbrook, Harden…all drafted by the Thunder/Sonics.

    As you pointed out, the Celtics with Pierce there already, and Garnett & Allen acquired via trades. To me, this is another area that differentiates them from the Heat. With the Celtics, they had to trade away a lot of complimentary pieces to acquire their big 3, thus the supporting cast was weaker than that of today’s Heat. Also, all three of the Celtics big 3 were in the downside of their careers at the time. Not one was in his prime. I forget if it’s Simmons or Rick Reilly that is the big Celtics fan, but he said the over/under on championships for that group when they were brought in was 1.5. Two or more meant it was a success, 1 or none meant it was a disappointment. Obviously they only got the one, having lost their opportunity for a second to the Kobe & Pau Gasol Lakers. But think about that, a fan of the Celtics thought 1.5 championships was the over/under, now compare that with the Heat who are in their 4th straight NBA finals. And when Lebron signed with the Heat said they’d win what…6? 7? (memory fuzzy, but it was a lot). Now was that an overconfidence? Perhaps a bit, but I think everyone knew they should win more than the 1.5 the Celts were slated for after they got their big 3.

    The only time I can think of it done remotely the same way was with the Lakers. During one stretch they acquired Shaq via free agency, drafted Kobe, and then after a couple of titles tried bringing in Malone & Payton. Not exactly the same, as both of those players were in the twilight of their careers. They had a one year window (with Malone & Payton), which was slammed shut by Larry Brown’s Pistons sweeping them out of the Finals.

    To me all these subtle differences add up to a monumental advantage for the Heat franchise. Getting 2 of the 3 stars via free agency, both in the primes of their career.

    I guess part of what bugs me about it is that it shines a light on the haves & have nots in the NBA. While I love watching basketball far more than football, one great thing about the NFL is that if you have a competent front office & coaching staff, you can rebuild and you have as good a shot as any to compete for championships. Small market teams are not exempt from this. However, in the NBA, you can collect 3 superstars (and 2 via free agency) and distance yourself from at least 80% of the league. Obviously this is due in part to the number of players on NFL teams and on the field at one time versus the 5 players on the court for a basketball team, but still. Just ask yourself, even if a team like…Milwaukee or Minnesota had the best front office and coaching staffs in the league, could you fathom either of those franchises building a Heat-like dynasty in today’s NBA climate? We’ve already seen once in recent history, the small-market Thunder couldn’t see a financial way to keep Harden so they traded him.

    Of course that isn’t Lebron’s fault, or DWade’s. I don’t begrudge them wanting to play together, and as I said before I didn’t begrudge Lebron leaving Cleveland. And it’s not on Riley. I mean, is he not supposed to do his job and try and put together the best collection of talent? Of course that’s what he’s supposed to do. There’s just something about it that doesn’t sit right. That seems, as I said before, seedy.

    I’m not alone on this. Jordan & Magic came out against it following “the decision.” A few years ago there was a panel of ex-NBA players sitting around talking about this. Barkley & Ewing were on there, as well as others I can’t remember. I don’t remember exactly why they were against it, as I don’t think they had really good reasons themselves, just that in their day you wouldn’t see guys colluding a full season out to try and create a super-team while still with their current clubs. I do remember Barkley saying that he wanted to accomplish something for himself (which I thought ironic considering he left for Phoenix, although Barkley plus any other two members of the Suns weren’t near what Miami’s big 3 are), and that he didn’t want to “gravy train” off someone else for a championship. To me that was a powerful sentiment from two guys that never won an NBA championship.



  • All this talk about Chalmers and he dropped a big turd on game 1 last night. He certainly played out of sorts and at times played like a rookie.

    I’m pretty sure he’ll show up at some point in this series. He did last year and was dominant when it counted most… games 6 and 7.

    There is a factor to the playoffs this year that no one is addressing… Coach Pop had a year of watching last year’s finals tape and has such an experienced group of players to execute better strategy, better reactions to what Miami will throw at them.

    I thought turning off the AC was a pretty good strategy… for example…

    Everyone is aware of LeBron’s Achilles heel… his history of cramping. Did anyone notice how the three amigos were icing their necks every time they took a blow on the sidelines? That’s helpful but what they needed most was the right balance of salt and potassium. They should have been eating several bananas during the game, and drink watermelon juice, especially for electrolytes.



  • @icthawkfan316

    I think market size is overblown. The Thunder have a very smart front office, but they misread the effect of the new CBA when they made the Harden trade. They thought the luxury tax (which is more important than the salary cap) would be lower than it has turned out to be. Since they felt that they had a strong perimeter with Westbrook and Durant, they wanted to keep Ibaka over Harden to have the defense and inside presence. Had they realized that the luxury tax would continue to rise the way it has, I think they would have handled the Harden situation differently.

    A smart front office matters more in the NBA than anywhere else. Look at the Knicks or the current Lakers. Both are iconic franchises in major markets. Both are also terrible. The Knicks have a salary cap disaster. On top of that, they don’t own either of their draft picks this season, they don’t have next year’s second rounder or either 2016 pick (unless their second round pick falls in the top 7 of the second round). That’s years of poor management all coming to fruition and no amount of money can get them out of it until at least 2017 when they own their first rounder and most of the bad money on their cap sheet will be gone.

    The Lakers are similarly sunk. They have Kobe tying up nearly $25m in cap space each of the next two years. They don’t have a first rounder in 2015 or 2017 unless it falls in the top 5. They may not have any picks in 2015 at all, depending on where their draft position is, as their 2nd rounder is traded, but top 40 protected. There is a very good chance that after the 2016 season the Lakers will have no Kobe, a late lottery pick and no first rounder the following season. There’s not much of a foundation there to build on if that’s the case.

    Now look at a team like Portland or Denver. Portland doesn’t have any picks this year, but they have a solid team with a lot of young players. On top of that, they own their first rounder every year going forward and they may get an extra 2nd rounder from the Knicks down the road. They already have Aldridge signed and will likely do the same with Lillard. They have a good foundation, cap space and picks for the next several years.

    The Nuggets are in even better shape. Two first rounders this year. Two second rounders this year. Their own first rounder in 2015. The higher of the two picks between theirs and the Knicks in 2016. That’s potentially three lottery picks over the next three seasons, plus an extra first rounder on top of that. They don’t have tons of talent on the roster right now, but they have a way to get some help very quickly.

    On the other hand look at what Cleveland has done. They have had three number one picks in four years counting this year. If they don’t land one of the best three players in this draft this season, they will have blown back to back #1 picks. For all of their high picks, they haven’t gotten any better in the last four years. And this is the same team that never could build a solid cast around Lebron James. It’s not a lack of resources. It’s a lack of competency.



  • @justanotherfan A few things: first, that’s a pretty inexcusable and colossal mistake on the part of “a very smart” Thunder front office. A franchise-changing mistake. A balance of power in the western conference changing mistake. Given this, do they really get to keep the title “very smart”?

    Secondly, I do think market size matters. It may not be the be all and end all, but it’s important. Maybe not solely for financial reasons, but just for the players’ desire to play in certain places. NBA players don’t want to play in Milwaukee or Minnesota or Toronto. Carmelo famously opined to play in New York. Shaq wanted the glamorous Hollywood lifestyle of LA. Lebron took his talents to South Beach.

    And lastly, when you talk about teams and the picks they have, realize that the NBA draft is not all that likely to change the fortunes of the downtrodden franchises. The reason for this is two-fold: first, there are so few franchise changing players. I would argue that a majority of the drafts don’t have a franchise changer. Certainly there are exceptions (2003 had multiple franchise changers), but those only serve to highlight the multiple years in which there aren’t any. You mention Cleveland having 3 number one picks in 4 years. They did pretty good with the Kyrie Irving pick; probably as good as you could hope. They appear to have whiffed on Anthony Bennett. But in those drafts, was there someone they missed on that had they chosen him their franchise would have been able to pull themselves out of lottery-status? Maybe too early to tell on last year’s Bennett draft, but really no one stands out there. This year Embiid has that potential to be a franchise changer. But think about that - if Embiid is that type of player, Cleveland had three #1 overall picks in four years and didn’t stumble upon a player of his caliber until the last of those three opportunities.

    The second reason the draft isn’t likely to change the fortunes of the NBA’s worst teams is the NBA draft lottery. Even in the years that there is a franchise changer in the draft, just because you are the worst team doesn’t mean you’re guaranteed to get him. Sometimes it happens; Cleveland I think was the worst team in the Lebron draft. But then you have years like this year, Cleveland was the 9th worst team in the league. Not the worst. 9th worst. And they had a 1.7% chance of landing that pick. Same in league rank and percentage chance in 2008 with the Bulls. In 2008 the Bulls landed Derrick Rose. I’d argue he was a franchise changer. Injuries have derailed his career quite a bit, but he was rookie of the year his first year, NBA all-star his second year, and league MVP his third year. Pretty good career trajectory huh? Second pick in that draft - Michael Beasley. He had some solid years, but not franchise changing by any stretch. This year I think the Bucks (who had the worst record) are fairly lucky that guys like Parker & Wiggins will be there at #2, although time will tell how everyone’s career plays out I suppose.

    Anyway, I think what all this illustrates is that having a smart NBA front office still won’t guarantee you success. Because, as was kind of the point of my posts to ralster, if you are fortunate enough to get one franchise changer in the draft, you really have to be able to now go out and find a second one to be able to compete at the higher levels. And then you need a third, maybe not franchise changer, but all-star caliber player if you want to have a realistic shot at winning titles. You mention Portland. I think they’re close. Aldridge is very underrated, and Lillard might be at the level of being that third all-star level player. But they need that second elite level talent to pair with Aldridge. Can they lure someone there via free agency? Luck out in the draft? Probably not. So look for them to continue to be a good, but not great franchise. And Denver, despite their bevy of draft picks, is no where close. Ty Lawson is the face of the franchise right now. They’re a ways off.

    Such is the luck of the draw in the NBA today.


Log in to reply