Frank Mason going Pro
-
Frank is exactly what I want in a PG. His height is a major factor keeping him off the NBA draft boards, so he is a 4-yr Jayhawk! Just what you want at PG. And he has a guy to replace him when he’s gone… except we really need to score another version of a Frank next year, so he can get some seasoning for a couple of years.
I know there could be some kind of dream OAD PG out there who wants to come to Kansas. And maybe in that one year he could help bring us a NC. That… or he comes without succeeding in March, and then we are stuck with a hole at point and forced to recruit another rookie for the job. Then we have pressure to land another OAD PG.
I’d rather stay off the OAD roller coaster at PG. Frank has been valuable since Day 1 at Kansas. The next 2 years he should bring us “championship quality” play at the PG position.
I hope we continue to nail solid PGs who have “4-yr” written all over them. We need to recruit one at least every second year, to get seasoned first in a part time role.
-
We got lucky with Both Mason & Graham in regards to the 4yr type PG’s. Both could have been playing for smaller schools (towson & appalachian st). Our staff did a great job identifying their talent but they would have been crazy to know Mason would become what he is, and Graham having the chance to follow in his steps as well. We could have struck out with those 2 and have been stuck in a situation where we would have needed a talent like Fox to lift us up. But that hasn’t happened, Mason was the PG who helped turn everything around.
Fox is a super talent, one that has the NBA measurables, the hype & the game to be in the league but he’s already likely a 1 year stop wherever he goes.
-
@drgnslayr sounds a lil selfish? He’s probably not going to grow his sr year. I hope he has a shot, regardless of year or height.
-
We were either lucky to land Frank and Devonte and have them work out… or we have gifted coaches that see great potential in these guys… or likely BOTH!
Yes, Fox is a real talent. I’d love to see him in a Jayhawk uniform, especially if he was here more than one year. I just fear that we get on a track where we have to go find a quality PG every year to start. It takes time to be successful at Self ball. Lots to learn while learning to play at the speed of D1.
Duke was fortunate last year, and I wouldn’t count on many freshmen PGs going out there and winning NCs. Duke was a huge stack, and it wasn’t all on Jones to make it happen.
Without question, the right kind of talent could come in and become the biggest factor in winning a NC. But do you want to get on that roller coaster ride every year? I think it also just encourages us to become a revolving door team like Kentucky because every year will be a total gamble on winning since you have to find a new PG every year.
Right now I am enjoying KNOWING what we have coming back! We have about as much certainty as we can have leading up to a season. It is great to know we have a solid, experienced core coming back, including leadership at the point. That helps offset the unknown… like injuries, etc.
-
@drgnslayr isn’t this the time to go and get an uber point though? If he turns out to be the real deal great. If not, we have solid depth at the position. And, so far, any time Bill has had an All-American point guard, his team goes deep in the tourney. (Chalmers/Collins, Tyshawn, Dee Brown)
-
Aren’t all those guys 4-yr guys except Chalmers, who left after winning a title in his junior year?
I think you are helping me make my point, all these guys had lots of experience when we were going for a big March. Collins was only a freshman in '08, but he was our spark off the bench and not a starter.
I’m not saying we don’t go after big time talent. We will do the best by getting the most talent possible in a multi-year player… preferably a guy who sticks it out for 4 years unless he wins a NC first!
I think the game has changed since most of these guys played. TT is recent enough to be a part of the big move for talent to leave early for the NBA, especially as OADs. The NBA draft atmosphere has changed a lot in recent years, drafting more on potential than established talent.
Up until recent times, I thought the early guys were all about “instant gratification” and wanting to go quickly to the league so they could buy a big house and car and help out their families. I’m slowly changing my position with some of the recent serious injuries happening. And the league doesn’t reward guys (typically) for sticking it out in college and coming out with more polish. The league GMs are mesmerized by “shiny objects” and typically can’t resist going after potential. The longer players play in college, the less it becomes about potential and the more it becomes about being a known, semi-developed entity.
The one thing with having a “potential perspective”… you can imagine greatness so far hyped beyond reality, it becomes addictive like a drug! Everyone is looking for the next Jordan! Turns out, it may end up being someone like Wigs… a guy who was largely traded for a “known entity.”
-
@drgnslayr they were! But we have also never had a OAD talent at PG to reference… My point was more that we will have a solid 4 year guy in Devonte for sure next season, so the gamble to go after a OAD PG seems like it is low risk high reward.
-
Hey… with all that talent we had in '08, we just edged out DRose and Memphis. He was an OAD PG.
There are sound arguments for going after OAD PGs. I just like having good, seasoned PGs every year, and if we do the right job recruiting, that should happen, unless injuries or other events occur on occasion.
Part of the model that makes me think the way I do is the model of UCONN. Always a guard-capable team. They’ve been stacking NCs up big time over the last 16 years (4 NCs). Just remembering their last two… 2011, with a seasoned Kemba Walker (junior) and then 2014, beating a tough Kentucky team with Shabazz Napier (senior). Both of these PGs were absolutely vital and were tournament MOP.
Hard to say how it goes if we recruit over our talented PGs. Transferring has become very popular these days. What if we bring someone in and then Devonte splits? Or his development hiccups because he isn’t seeing floor time and loses confidence.
Shabazz had the good fortune of experiencing Walker’s game, mostly from the bench, and he learned a lot. He knew he was “the man” moving forward after Walker.
The PG position is not like any other position. It REQUIRES leadership. It REQUIRES trust and respect from the other positions. It REQUIRES solid communication. Not often when a guy can come in as a freshman and earn all of that with a team that has several older players. Bonds usually take time and experiences before they solidify.
-
IMHO, a Senior Frank Mason is better than any OAD PG than we could get. Keep in mind that the great majority of recent great OAD PGs were drafted more for their potential than what they actually did on the court. I have no doubt that Senior Mason’s production would be greater than that of any OAD PG KU could get…
-
If you want a OAD PG, there has to be an upper classman next to him. Tyus Jones had Quinn Cook next to him to help him out running the show.
I don’t see any scenario KU lands Fox because I just don’t see a scenario in which Mason and Graham aren’t on the roster in 2016-17.
-
I think its both. Mason is arguably our best player as a low ranked post grad player. There’s absolutely no way Self and his staff could of predicted that Mason would be this good this soon. Same with Graham, his recruitment didn’t blow up until he spent an extra year in prep school at Brewster. He was solid as a freshman and more is expected of him this year. I think both came in with maturity beyond their years and its shown to be the best thing for KU.
There’s a lot of ways to look at Fox. I think he could be more of a 2 guard in College. He is a very good PG in the HS ranks but Self could really use him at the 2 especially if Selden or Svi leave.
PG is probably the last position you want a revolving 1 year door because there’s no chemistry built with the rest of your team when you replace your floor general every year. Mason & Graham represent that 4 year stability vs Fox’s likely 1 year stopover.
Fox would definitely be more prepared if he came to KU learning from our 2 studs, and hopefully he has an open mind in that regard. If we miss on Fox, there’s always Trae Young in 2017 who wants to be a package deal with Michael Porter. Fox isn’t a must have recruit based on need, but you never want to lose top 10 talent to an in conference foe. Most importantly is establishing recruiting victories in Texas, which we’ve struggled to do.
Remember Fox really likes KU and we’ve put in the most work for his services. Texas has been hot on his tail because he’s given them the chance to recruit him.
If Taylor goes pro after this year, Texas still has 2 Top 50 PG recruits who would be Sophomore’s & they have already signed Jacob Young a rising PG prospect and younger brother of Joseph Young who was drafted by the Pacers this year. They also have Yancy who figures to start this year at the 2 guard & his senior year. Their back-court is just as crowded and full of talent.
That is why I’ve suggested that he could play some 2 guard because of his size, length & athleticism. He would be the perfect compliment to Mason & Graham especially if Selden goes pro.
-
@BeddieKU23 Fox is in the a presumed OAD range, he’s not likely going somewhere he’s coming off the bench which is what would happen here with Mason and Graham back. This is why I don’t believe we’ll see KU land a combo or PG in this class. Front court is a much greater need as KU is looking at likely only having 3 current front court players back and 2 of them aren’t starter caliber players.
-
" This is why I don’t believe we’ll see KU land a combo or PG in this class."
At least… not an OAD-level PG. We should be looking for the next Devonte Graham to bring in for a couple years of education and limited play, molding into our future stud PG…
-
Forget Fox, lock up Mr. Eudora.
http://www.kansascity.com/sports/spt-columns-blogs/campus-corner/article28423282.html
-
The improved version of Ron Baker…
-
@drgnslayr How Selden and Svi play during the year will determine whether that’s a priority or not in the 2016 class. Right now, big are the top priority because KU is expected to lose 4 of them after this year. Wing is second priority because of Selden and Svi’s potential to turn pro after this season. PG and combos are the lowest priority in 2016. And because 2016 is not a strong class for bigs, Self and staff need to put extra work in to land the ones who are available. Marques Bolden is the top priority for this coaching staff this year.
De’Aaron Fox is a great player and I do plan on trying to go watch him play this year as I live about 30 minutes away from Cy-Lakes. At the end of the day though he doesn’t fill a pressing need for Kansas basketball in 2016-17 and what he’s looking for and what KU needs just don’t appear to line up.
-
Your right about the pecking order of what we will “need”. At least 1 Elite big is at the top, 2 just for depth purposes if Diallo is gone. A wing will be a must if we were to lose Selden & Svi to the draft. At the moment, its all Bolden or nothing because while other bigs have shown interest, they haven’t shown the kind of interest that leads to a commitment.
But I still don’t see how its not reasonable that Fox comes here and plays off the ball Were all on the bandwagon for Graham starting with Mason this year so that they can play with each other. Fox is more athletic, has more length for that role than Graham does. I’m not saying Fox is an upgrade because we don’t know how Graham will do if in fact he plays alongside Mason the whole season. But its an option, something that Fox I’m sure will monitor closely. If Graham has a strong season then there’s no reason to recruit over him, but it never hurts to have a talent problem.
-
@BeddieKU23 “I’m not saying Fox is an upgrade because we don’t know how Graham will do if in fact he plays alongside Mason the whole season.”
Oh, but I think we do know how Graham will do. Just look at his last game he played.
-
Sure, hopefully his play will speak for itself, if Self does role with the 2 ball handlers in the starting line-up.
-
“How Selden and Svi play during the year will determine whether that’s a priority or not in the 2016 class.”
Neither of these guys are PGs. It is irrelevant how they play this year as to why we would recruit or not recruit a PG. We should be bringing in PGs every couple of years to keep staggered development going at that position, otherwise we end up with years having a newbie run the team.
-
@drgnslayr I know Selden and Svi are not PG’s. I’ve said in multiple previous posts that I think a PG/combo signing only becomes a priorty for depth if KU ends up with a 5+ player class. Right we can pretty safely assume KU will have at least a 4 man class because of losing 4 bigs.
Hypothetical here, if KU only ends up losing 4 players, I think the class should be 3 bigs and a wing because a wing is the most likely position to lose outside of the 4 bigs. Should one or both of Selden and Svi go pro, then target a PG/combo if one goes and a second wing if both go.
@BeddieKU23 Would you rather have junior Devonte Graham who would most likely be back for his senior year or freshman De’Aaron Fox who most likely wouldn’t be around for his sophomore year playing next to senior Frank Mason? I know my answer based on the roster make up of the past two Final Four teams.
-
Mason > Fox. That’s why Fox said what he does (he does not want to have to battle Frank).
Fox needs to pull his head out of his nether-region, because Devonte Graham is also > Fox.
Fox forgets all what Selfball requires, because he simply is ignorant of its myriad of details. Those will hit him shortly after Boot Camp. But doesn’t sound like he’s tough enough mentally–seeing that he’s afraid of Frank.
-
I’d rather have Graham, provided he improves and has a great year. Right now I’d take a Jr over a freshman any day. But I want to see how Graham plays either backing up Mason or playing alongside him. I’m sure he’s going to be very good but we all thought Selden would be very good last year as well. You just never know what’s going to happen. Graham has been injured twice, which has in some way cost himself & the team. I’m not saying he has durability issues but it could be wise to get a combo guard/pg in this class regardless.
As @drgnslayr has pointed out its good to get a PG in the door in staggered years so we are not stuck relying on a freshman. We could technically go another year without another pg signing because Graham still has 3 years and Mason 2. A 2017 PG would be a backup to Graham unless its an elite talent
-
Mason needs to get HIS team farther than the 2nd round of the NCAAs. At least Trey Burke got his team into the F4. At least those little guards for UConn and Louisville recently got their respective teams a NC.
My fave players on the current roster (who I’ve seen play…) are Frank Mason, Devonte Graham, and Wayne Selden. Everybody else has got to prove some things before I buy their pudding…(& I’m surely buyin’ nuthin’ from DeAron Fox…as he’s proved exactly zero in the college game).
-
You raise an interesting issue about Frank and his draft potential. It is interesting because it is a case that illuminates a lot about why so many top short guys play more seasons in college than top long guys.
Market demand in the NBA is driven by a players skills and physical package.
Lot’s of short guys can play on the X-axis in the NBA. Heck, Mugsy Bogues proved a 5-3 guy can ball in the NBA.
@drgnslayr is right about the 80% of the game being played from an average of 6 feet 6 inches down on the floor.
But of the 5 positions on the floor on offense, there is some variation in that 6-6 number, some standard deviation in that average if you will.
At point guard, 5-3 inch Mugsy Bogues suggests that the quite a lot of the game is played from 6-0 down.
At center and power forward in the NBA on the other hand, we don’t see any 5-3 guys playing, and only about once in a generation do we see a 6-6 center, so we logically infer that 80 percent of the post and power forward positions are perhaps played 6-8 or 6-10 and under.
In turn, maybe the wings play 6-6 and under.
My point here is this: height is still relevant, however much of the game is played at lower than leaping levels.
Further, height is particularly important at the post and power positions and there remains in our culture a lesser supply of persons of heights suitable for playing 6-8 to 6-10 and down, than there are persons of heights suitable to playing 6-0 and down.
It is a numbers a game, as they say.
Sooooo…
Since NBA teams can pick up guys capable of playing 6-0 and down almost any time (there being a relative abundance of such players), and since guys capable of playing 6-8 to 6-10 and down are rather more scarce, two tendencies manifest:
1.) NBA teams tend to draft 6-8 to 6-10 and down capable talent whenever it is available; and
2.) NBA teams tend to pick up 6-0 and down talent secondarily, unless they are already stocked up on the former.
When all the teams are drafting with this tendency, short guys tend to have to prove themselves more and longer, and distinguish themselves with better numbers, in order to finally get a team to take a risk on them.
And since these shorter players are in a longer cue (including short players in the NBA, short players in D-League, and short players in D1), it takes them more seasons of stellar play to convince the NBA GMs to take them, unless they are freakishly talented in a relatively long package (Derek Rose, etc.). Even a 6-2 guard is apt to be picked ahead of Frank Mason. Even Frank Mason is apt to be picked ahead of Nic Moore. And so on.
-
Interesting discussion. I’m thankful that Larry Brown let Nic Moore come play for KU/USA, but I was underwhelmed by his game on a big stage. Compare his numbers with those of Mason and Selden–on the same big stage.
There is no way Nic Moore plays in the NBA. Y’all saw how roughed-up he got in the WUG games, and he had recurrent foul problems. As a senior.
Devonte Graham in the WUG would have double the stats that Nic Moore had. Its not that Nic Moore is a bad player. Its that KU’s roster and the expectations are simply on another level.
And DeBose battled LaGerald Vick to a stalemate, I thought, in terms of production, with the narrow edge to Vick. A Self pre-frosh!
-
@ralster Excellent post. I honestly don’t understand what some people saw in Nic Moore that was that impressive. The only thing that Moore might have on Devonte is leadership. Comparing freshman Devonte to Moore in the WUG, there isn’t really anything that Moore does better.
-
@ralster @DinarHawk Nic Moore is the reigning POY in a conference that has produced 2 of the past 3 national champs. Also, I don’t believe anybody on KUSA shot the ball particularly well from the outside during the tournament on a consistent basis.
Another thing to consider is that Self didn’t run many set plays and just let the players freestyle it out there. Since Nic Moore only had a handful of practices with the other players, the chemistry just wasn’t there with Moore that’s needed for an unscripted offense to work to its maximum efficiency. Nic Moore is a very good player, you don’t have the stats he has and accolades he’s achieved at SMU without being a very good player.
We also saw with Nic Moore why it’s important to have multi year PG’s on the roster that know the system and know the responsibilities of other players. Nic Moore didn’t have the time to learn those things with regards to Self’s system and KU’s players and when he ran the show instead of Mason, the offense was nowhere near as efficient. It’s not Nic’s fault, it’s just a product of throwing someone to the wolves against very good competition and I would absolutely take Nic Moore in a heartbeat on this team because of what he has accomplished at SMU.
-
“My point here is this: height is still relevant, however much of the game is played at lower than leaping levels.”
I still think height is very important. Height relates heavily to reach, and reach also extends horizontally and plays a major impact in x-axis.
But y-axis is important, too, because most players are not all that capable (individually) in the x-axis. Most players can’t create their own scoring space on a guy 6-inches taller. Scoring space is needed in both axis planes. Height is the easiest way to create scoring space or to take it away from the opposition.
Basketball is a team game, and teams need various weapons. Some tools are needed to defend, others to offend, and both must be capable against varying types of teams and players.
-
I hear you. I also value Devonte more than Nic. Nic is a veteran player, but he also had perhaps the hardest time adjusting to the refs in WUG, always getting himself into foul trouble. He had a hard time limiting his fouls.
But, no question, Nic was very valuable to our team. He gave us another capable guard/PG that could get the ball over the half court and helped keep our pace moving. I don’t think we would have won WUG without Nic. But we could have easily won WUG just as well with Devonte. We will never know how Devonte would have adapted to WUG ball. He might have shown some “greenness” in Korea!
-
Great post, Moore was more valuable than the stats showed. What if Self hadn’t gotten a veteran pg to help Mason. His relationship with Larry Brown is why we even had such a player. We’d be spoiled to have a Moore on our team.
-
@Texas-Hawk-10 I like your points about Nic, and I was focusing on his stat line and foul problems and height/athleticism (compared to either Mason, or my recollection of Graham).
There is also the eye test: when I see Mason play, I see a player (now) very near Sherron’s level, and arguably better than VanVleet. We do need Mason to score, that’s his way of making others better (take some pressure off, and distract the opponent). VanVleet is more of a classic PG, I like him a lot, but Mason is just more exciting, and more athletic.
The eye test for Graham, simply makes me think of a cross between Russ Rob and Mario Chalmers. He’s ultra-athletic, and can shoot the ball as good as Chalmers. Self said the same thing about being a mix between RRob and Chalmers–where and how he found this kid Graham, god only knows…
I remain SORELY disappointed that Graham couldn’t play in WUG.
And just expounding on my own belief (so nobody take this as an inflammatory statement), but I care little about what conference SMU is in. My interest is seeing Self get these Jayhawks ready to face KU’s opponents.
-
The players we picked up blended perfectly w/our kids. We couldn’t have asked for a better team to represent KU or USA, especially w/the late injury. After watching the USA team in the pan am games, it’s clear our kids and coaches wanted to play team ball and were very proud to be there. A great once in a life time experience for most of those young men. Very proud of all of them!
