whats up with Vick?
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Not selling!
In the 8 stack program era era that started this past season, KU isnât a ring contender without a footer and without an equivalent replacement for Oubre, and with 6-9 no offense Diallo and 6-10 no offense Lucas manning the post. If opponents teed off on Perry last season, he may not make it through the front nine this year.
The logic goes like this: how can they be net better when they have lost more than they gained? They lost two OADs and recruited one. They lost BGâa junior to rehab-- for part of a season and gained Vick, a reclassifying frosh no higher ranked than BG was. They have no one that can guard a footer, nor a two footer rotation. They have no one that can guard a draft choice three.
KU this season is a B12 contenduh, not a ring contenduh?
They lost more than they gained unless Svi does a supernova.
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Might ânear footerâ account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
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Has Vick actually improved his game that much?
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Maybe, thatâs a tough question to ask. I think more than anything Vick didnât get the exposure before this spring on the AAU scene and fell through the cracks as they say. Then when he finally played some tournaments he was much better than anyone had realized, dominant to a point offensively. Some of it probably is due to marked improvement in his game which bodes well for us because he could have the potential to start as a Soph if the cards play out for him.
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@jaybate-1.0 Greene will be available for the entire season, at least in SelfSpeak.
Mason may improve.
Graham is likely to improve: college PGs generally improve the most between freshman and sophomore seasons.
Svi is likely to improve.
Overall, we could be about as good on the perimeter (1 through 3).
Yes, the 5 is a problem.
How can this lineup be an inside/out team?
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You make a fine point, but if you against one aspect then you are for the other. Meaning you think HCBS should stay loaded at the guard positions. As your theory is that bigs arenât really the key to HCBS success.
All I can say is you must of not watched the same KU team that I watched last year? HCBS isnât not going to change is system to accommodate a guard heavy team. Heâs going to play his high low game period. What was on the floor last year left a very sic feeling in my stomach. There is not a KU fan in here that can look me in the eyes and say yea I thought last years team really had a shot at the final 4, let alone a championship.
They were terrible in the paint, and HCBS refused to change his game plan. HCBS needs bigs whether 6â9 or 7ft. After this year Ellis, Tralyor, Mickelson are gone, and there is very good chance that Diallo and Bragg are gone too. That leaves Lucas and Cobley Cheese. The need for Chuckwu goes way beyond the footer debate. If KU were to get Chuckwu they would at the very least have three bigs that know the system and would take off some of the pressure to land two bigs in the 2016 class of recruits.
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I donât think Bragg will get the PT to warrant leaving after 1 year. He knows after this year the paint is his. Heâs a potential lotto pick if he sticks around and he seems like a kid who wants to develop in the system.
At some point we are going to want to get young big men in the system. Bolden would be the ideal fit. We will need at least 1 big next year if Diallo does go pro. Too early to tell what will happen
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I would love to believe you and would love to agree with you. However the NBA draft isnât about what have you accomplished. Itâs about potential and whether they are willing to take a chance on you. Bragg very well could be here for a few years, but if he comes out and shows flashes of what he can become. Heâs gone. Money talks in this day in age.
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your right in many ways, I just feel with him playing behind Ellis its going to be hard for him to get enough PT to leave. Heâs not really on any NBA radar at the moment like Diallo already is. He may fly under the radar enough.
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@jaybate-1.0 Exposure is key to moving up the ranks. There is generally one guy for each rankings system out there and if you havenât played in front of that guy much then he can not accurately rank you. Thatâs also why he has moved up on some boards but not others.
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Paul Biancardi â@PaulBiancardi ¡ 21h21 hours ago
Basketball Recruiting - LeGerald Vick - Now in the 100 for 2015 with an Evaluation.Biancardi has Vick at 51 on his board for ESPN. More exposure over the summer might have put him even higher?
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@jaybate-1.0 I think youâre discounting Dialloâs offensive game. Withey couldnât make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid. Diallo is extremely quick, much quicker than anyone weâve had since maybe TROB in the post, and I think his drives to the basket will result in lots of scoring opportunities.And, he will dunk, dunk, dunk. He has a relentless motor that makes him, imo, the best big man in the 2015 class. His defense will be light years ahead of what we endured last year.
Replacing Oubre at the 3 could be a challenge, but we do have a plethora of choices available. Iâm sure weâll see in-season tryouts. like we did at the 5 last year.
Iâm very excited about this team. Itâs been since 2012 since weâve went into a season with so much experience, which was the last time we made the FF.
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@KUSTEVE said:
Withey couldnât make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid.
Withey made 100% of his 3s at KU
Seriously, Embiid could always shoot some.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do believe KU is going to be better than last year and there is reason why Las Vegas has KU as the 4th/5th favorite to win the title this year.
Is it a guarantee that Svi will be as good as Oubre next season? No, itâs not, but thereâs a reason why he was considered KUâs best NBA prospect last year despite the amount of bench time he saw. Donât forget that Svi was just 17 last year and doesnât turn 18 until next week (June 10). He has the skill, his body is continuing to mature, he has experience now and itâs just a matter of time until he shows why heâs a projected mid 1st round pick in the 2016 draft. You may say itâs a net negative, but donât forget that Self backed off the elite wings in 2015 AFTER Svi and Brannen announced they would be back.
Speaking of Brannen, the time table for his return was approximately 5 months which at the time of his surgery puts Labor Day as the approximate target date for his return. Thatâs 2 months before the season starts so barring some kind of major set back, BG will be ready to go for the season.
The front court is where KU will see the most improvement. Diallo and Bragg should be much better on the court overall than Cliff was last year. Diallo isnât going to be asked to shoot anything outside of 5â other than FTâs and has a much higher motor than Cliff did. Diallo is also considered the best rim protector in the class which is what KU was missing last season.
You bring up Dialloâs ability to guard 7 footers. Two things about that, Diallo has a 7-2 wingspan and how teams with 7 footers does KU play in 2015-16? I can think of two and of those players may not be eligible to play. UC Irvine has that 7-5 kid, but itâs still UCI and KU should win that one. Kentucky has Skal Labissiere, but he still hasnât been cleared to play by the NCAA yet and thereâs a chance he wonât get cleared at all. Beyond those two players, I donât know of a competent 7 footer that KU faces so worrying about something KU has to deal with twice on the known part of the schedule isnât a big deal to me.
This is the best overall team KU has had since 2010-11. There is depth and experience on perimeter, there is experience on the wing, there is depth and experience in the front court. When was the last time KU had 5-6 upper classmen in their projected rotation? Mason, Selden, Ellis, Greene, Lucas and probably Traylor. Add in Graham and Svi who did play quite a bit last year and weâre talking 8 of the 9 rotation spots filled by players with experience.
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@DoubleDD Players who can score down low are key to Selfâs offense. Players who want to score down low are the key to Selfâs offense. My point is that they have not historically been taller than 6â9". In fact, @sfbahawk indicated that at the pre-draft combine Withey measured 6â10-3/4". Thatâs even better. The numbers I used were KU numbers and as has been the topic of more than one thread those numbers are usually inflated.
Who said anything about a guard heavy team? Try pinning that on someone else. It wasnât me.
The argument of some is that it is critical to get Chukwu because he is a footer. Past history does not support that claim. You obviously arenât too excited about Coleby. I donât know whether he will pan out or not. Self must think so or he wouldnât have signed him. What I do know is that he meets Selfâs profile of big men. If you look at the builds of his bigs, Coleby is closer to that than is Chukwu. It doesnât appear that Coleby will have to spend as much time with Hudy as would others. JoJo was very impressive as a freshman. He was a very good learner and his footwork was amazing. One of his biggest problems was his lack of strength. He could be moved out easier than some.
I would love to have Chukwu on the team but his presence is not critical. I cannot imagine that Self will lose any sleep in the next couple of years if he goes elsewhere.
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@sfbahawk I would tend to agree with you on seven footers. Theyâre nice to have, but not a necessity. I think that is what @DoubleDD said â âHCBS needs bigs whether 6â9 or 7ft.â
But the one thing that is clear, a tall, long kid can be a game changer. That why I want Chukwu. When given a choice, Iâd rather have a Chukwu type than a Coleby type.
Ideally, really, weâd have both. Imagine 7â2" Chukwu and 6â9" bruiser Coleby together in the post. Sounds good?
Maybe. They need to be skilled. They need to be able to score on the block.
Personally, my opinion has been that we need back to the basket scoring. But I donât care if itâs Wayne Simien height or Joel Embiid height. Again, Iâd rather have good, skilled, taller players. But we have won without it.
The reason Iâm not excited about Coleby is that Coleby was a role player at Ole Miss. He was unranked. He hasnât been spectacular. I think there is an argument that he is just insurance â that he may not be a real answer in the rotation. But sure, he could be more. Not being excited about doesnât mean, at least for me, that I donât like the acquisition. Iâd just rather have Chukwu.
With Chukwu, we have a more highly though of player out of high school. Taller and longer, and certainly rim protector stuff. A guy that after a year here may project more to a Withey type, the kind of guy we all think (Iâm guessing you too) fits well in Selfâs system.
Iâm fine with the Coleby acquisition. But I want more. I now want both. I want Chukwu. Is it âcriticalâ? Probably not.
Who was the best post player in Selfâs tenure at Kansas? Probably TRobâs 2011-12 season. But he was paired with Withey. Did Withey make him better? Iâm pretty confident that he did.
I want both.
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So to distill your reassurances that this is one of the best rosters, since 2010-11, and a team that can challenge for a ringâhere goes:
Svi will be good but probably not as good as Oubre. Well, ummm, we didnât challenge for a ring even with Oubre. How exactly are we going to challenge with someone not quite as good?
Well, adding Diallo and Bragg makes us way better, right?
But Diallo has no back to basket offense, which was the problem with our bigs last season.
And Bragg appears so slender he will not be able to stay on a spot, nor knock an offender off his.
Of course, Diallo has a 7-2 wing span, same as Oubre had, and is only an inch or two taller and Oubre, and I donât recall Kellyâs wing span compelling Self to use Kelly as a post defender against footers. Not sure this makes me sleep better.
Youâre not worried about facing footers without guys that can defend footers, because KU wonât see many footers during the regular seasonâŚthough they will play in a post season tournament in which last season 8 of the top ten teams in the country that got into the tournament had 1 to 4 footers and KU will inevitably face and likely not be able to matchup with the footer . Again, you are not making me feel like swaggering about my birds here.
You say we have depth and experience on the perimeter and appear unconcerned about the following things impairing that depth and experience:
a.) Seldenâs inability to dribble drive, his enduring psychological scars from knee surgery, reduced hop and pop from knee surgery, sharply limited ability to elevate except on a full speed run, extremely uneven focus, and a tendency to disappear for several games at a time;
b.) BG is coming off a hip surgery known for long rehabs and was not good enough last season to take 20 mpg away from Oubre, when Oubre was wearing a gauze gob on his injured knee, and Selden was disappearing 2-3 games at a time.
Vickâs contribution to our depth seems questionable, because he is so thin he likely will not be able to stay on a spot, or keep from being shoved out of his cuts on offense; nor will he likely be able to play physical defense his first season.
You figure Coleby meets a âprofileâ Self has for big men, which apparently includes Jamari Traylor, Hunter Mickelson, and Landon Lucas; this is not making me more confident.
That pretty much covers the list of the confidence enhancers, right?
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To everyone denying Self needs footersâŚ
Things changed last year.
The game went from general talent stacks, to footer stacks.
No teams without footers seriously challenged for the ring last season.
MSU backed in, then got exposed in the FF.
Footer stacks, or ânearâ footer stacks, if one wants to pick nits, makes the eight or so teams with footer stacks very dominant.
Stacking has changed everything about footers except the way we think about them.
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It seems something has changed.
KUâs recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
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Might ânear footerâ account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
Where do you draw the line? 6-10?, 6-11? how about a very athletic 6-9 that can out jump and out rebound a true 7 footer? You seem to be too fixated on the height and not enough on the talent. Letâs remember that Chuckwu was a role player at Providence, not an elite major program but Providence, where he was #9 in the team in minutes per gameâŚthe textbook definition of role player. He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. Letâs not anoint Chuckwu as the next Embiid or the savior of the Hi-Lo.
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I always draw the line at 6-11.
I believe doing so is established by international weights and measures standards, isnât it?
Seriously, you have to draw the line at 6-11, or we are not talking near footers.
I have never had trouble guarding a guy because he had an inch on me.
But anyone that has two inches, or more, on me always got harder to guard late in the game when I could jump less.
So: yeah, 6-11, or taller is the ânear footerâ guideline.
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Post Script: There wasnât one guy in the top eight teams in the country last season with a footer stack that had even one footer as good as Embiid. Not even Kaminsky. So Iâm with you step for step on not annointing anyone the next Embiid. Chuckwu is absolutely vital because he is a footer and KU doesnât have one.
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@jaybate-1.0 Provided Beed gets healthy and remains so throughout his rookie season, he will get RoY. Im calling it right now. Wish he could have stayed. But, in todayâs world, your projected in the top 3 or 2 of the draft, how can you turn that down?
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
It seems something has changed.
KUâs recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
Did Wigs go down when he signed?
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Again, height alone does not make great player. Our last win last year was against New Mexico State that has Tanveer Bhullar, a 7-3 Canadian Center that even HEM would play way, way behind Traylor :). At this point Chuckwu is 7 feet of potential and by no means a proven commodityâŚmaybe Coach Self saw more potential on 6-9 Coleby. Just sayinâ
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I so hope his back heals. He is one of the greatest center prospects I have ever seen. NBA Hall of Fame was within his grasp pre injury. But back injuries are just killers five years out, even if you recover pretty fully initially.
Unless every thing fits together just perfectly and you do just the right amount of muscle building to augment any enduring structural changes in the spine, then disk deformation and arthritis converge down stream and your career is shortened.
Larry Bird is the poster boy for best case scenario of this back injury phenomenon, but even he is a tragic case of what might have been. Watch tape of him his first season and a half in the NBA and at Indiana State and you know why Red Auerbach thought he had a chance to be the greatest NBA player ever and drafted him because of it. But then after his back injuryâthe exact nature of which I cannot now recallâhe had to completely retool his game from this running, jumping, high flying hick from French Lick style into that long, low shuffling X-axis game that he became famous for. He was so great he could play with a bad back for a career and win a couple rings. But without the back injury, there is just no telling how many rings he would have won.
I put Embiid in this same kind of category, even though he was sushi from having grown up not balling.
Embiid has it all but a money shot and that will come, if the injury permits.
He is just so awesomely gifted athletically.
But the back is just such a complicated place.
Only time will tell.
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@jaybate-1.0 I figure the biggest reasons why KU will be better is because they likely wonât have their best deep shooter injure his hip again, wonât have an assistant coach get suspended from all team activities for two week in late February, have their best low post player player held out because of NCAA issues, or have their bast player at about 50% during the NCAA tournament. I also figure there isnât a dominant program of the caliber of Kentucky, Duke, Wisconsin, or Virginia pre Justin Anderson injury.
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Agree with you down the line.
The biggest opportunity this KU team will have is Devonteâs improvement.
Devonte hung in out on the floor as a freshman sub; that was pretty impressive, even though he couldnât really stand the heat down the stretch (to be expected).
Diallo and Bragg are going to look great against our easy opponents and get schooled all season long by our good opponents.
Vick? I see a potential Michael Cooper kind of guy (a skinny old Laker player from long ago now) in two seasons, once he gets the sinew a little stronger, and finds out what intensity is, but this season we will be lucky if he can give us what Devonte gave us his first season.
I agree Frank will get better, but he is likely not to have as fiery hot of a trey ball this season. Guys canât usually sustain that two seasons in a row.
This should be a good roster for Self to try to get another conference title with, especially with Fred gone, Bruce doing his usual neutron bomb think in Manhattan, and Shaka finding his way in Austin his first season.
Never very worried about Drew, though he will have some players as usual.
The guy I am worried about is Trent Johnson at TCU. If he can get a player or two that can score, he is going to be dangerous. He is a very tough customer. If I am Big Shoe and Big Agent, plus the new African American coaches association and Drake Group, I would be networking for him and targeting him for a stack like Johnny Jones at LSU and Cuonzo at UC Berkeley.
Everything about player distribution and which coach gets the talent has always appeared to have had a strong network dimension. Self came up through the Okie Baller Mafia and has always been able to rely on that in tough times. Pitinoâs disciples are a formidable network. Pair these networks up with Big Shoe and Big Agent and youâve got what weâve seen up till recently.
Now there seems to be this emerging network that converges the new African American coaches association advocating for African American hirings, plus Big Shoe, plus Big Agent, plus some of the sports think tanks that have evolved political clout on a few campuses (e.g., Harry Edwards institute at UC) plus The Drake Group advocacy helping blow up a few programs and thus potentially creating some openings to be filled, plus the long established assistant coaches association that has long been a force in recruiting. If I am this apparently new convergence group, I have to be looking at Trent Johnson and think he is in the right city, with the right eye ball count, and recruiting base, and a power conference, so STACK HIM, STACK HIM HIGH! But so far, Trent hasnât been getting the love. Not sure why. Heâs a Mike Montgomery guy who played at Boise State. He did the usual .500 thing at UNevada first time out, then had a .625 run at Stanford but the black eye came when he fell back to .500 at LSU. Boot. Landed at TCU. At first I thought he was a chump. But heâs not. Hmmm. Montgomery just got run from UC for Cuonzo. And Trent got run from LSU for Johnny Jones. UC has a stack. LSU has a stack. Hmmmm. Maybe Trent and Mike are on the outs with the stackers. I donât know. But the guy can coach muscle ball with guys that canât shoot. Give him some scorers and he could put up Ws. Its hard to admit, because he comes off as kind of a jerk sometimes. But I believer in meritocracy, not networkocracy. So: Iâm changing my tune on Trent and Iâm saying, get this man some scorers. And if heâs on the outs with the stackers, then heâs probably doubly alright with me.
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Lots of near footers (@JayHawkFanToo and I have decided on this new term based on international standards for weights and measures and my childhood experience of guarding guys 1 inch taller versus guys 2 inches taller :-)) still.
Maybe not as many footers and maybe not a four stack, but likely enough to put two stack programs with a footer or two in each region and weed KU out early, because KU lacks a footer, eh?
On the other hand, you make a sterling case for the non recruiting related ways that KU should get better.
Jump shift.
What about Snacks?
Is he being kept in place only until all the risk of blow back from Cliff is gone, or has Self put him on a very short leash and is making him a reclamation project for the long term?
Snacks seems conspicuous in his absence from the Cliff drama and from current recruiting news.
What do you think?
Does anyone know if Snacks has been reported to be out on the recruiting trail this off season?
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Right you are and we absolutely donât need a great footer.
We just need an adequate footer to match up so we are not completely mismatched and lose solely because of that.
Chuckwu appears just good enough to fill the bill to me.
Just good enough; thatâs all our non stack program need to go along with its great coach who is good at gerry rigging defenses to over come talent deficiencies, if he at least has the physical match up covered.
Gotta have a footer in todayâs game to face the footers at the 8 or so stack programs.
Gotta have it.
Chukwu be da only option on duh table now.
Coleby will be a great match up for Ratso Izzoâs 6-8 to 6-9 prison bodies, but he is exactly NOT the right match up for the footers.
To parody T.S. Eliot, or someone, we need to prepare some footers to meet the footers that we meet.
Rock Chalk!
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Great point. I donât think so. Maybe he was the turning point.
However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!
Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.
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Yes, Jeff Withey IS the greatest KU triafectate of all time!!!
Imagine how much fun Jeff will always have holding that over all the great KU shooters he meets in the L and later at reunions in the coming years.
Yeah, Xavier, you were a pretty good trey dinger, but I never missed one, dude!
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It IS critical to get a footer now.
It didnât used to be critical.
Unless of course you have learned to luv the BAD BALL.
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@jaybate-1.0 IâLL TAKE THE FOOTER, IâLL TAKE THE FOOTER!!!
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YESSSSSSSS!!!
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@jaybate-1.0 My opinion on Snacks is that he shouldâve been fired the day the season ended. I donât care the weed part of the situation, that was never a big deal to me. The big to me was always the failure to be honest and up front about the arrest and I will always wonder in the back of my head what else he hasnât been up front about, including the Cliff situation. I also donât think weâll ever hear anything more about the situation because the NCAA will never get their hands on the loan documents themselves that they need to complete the investigation because they donât have the legal authority to do so and there was nothing illegal about the loan from a real stand point.
I also think Snacks is an overrated recruiter and I really wouldnât miss him on staff. He had early success at Texas A&M under Gillespie, but wasnât great at Kentucky, Illinois, and hasnât been anything special here in recruiting. Kurtis Townsend is the top of mountain when it comes to recruiting.
A lot of people have disagreed with me on this, but I believe the Jerrance Howard suspension was the biggest factor in KUâs struggles down the stretch last year. Howard was suspended on Feb. 12, KU was 20-4 (9-2) when Howard was suspended and went 6-4 against Big 12 teams, and 7-5 overall after that. The Ellis injury did have a negative as well, but I donât think it had the same impact the Howard suspension had on the overall outcome of the season.
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No, No, Iâm all in on Colby Cheese, and think KUâs should also go after Chukwu. 6â9 or 7ft it doesnât matter to me. You guys want to get hung up on 3 inches knock yourself out. If HCBS doesnât have bigs then KU because very beatable. Iâm not alone in this thinking as we look around the college game. Everybody is trying to get all the bigs they can.
Just look at Chukwu. In all honesty itâs not like he was tearing it up at his former school. Yet he decides to change schools and reopens his recruitment and he has a list of KU, Spartans, and Virginia. Thatâs not a bad list of schools interested in your services.
So I guess I have to disagree with you. There is a merit and should be a desire to sign Chukwu.
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@JayHawkFanToo says
" He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. "
Isnât that recruiting? Even OADâs can prove to be a disappointment. Iâm not sure anybody is claiming Chuckwu as the savior of HCBS Hi/low? He would be a nice get though With all the bigs KU will be losing after this season it would be kind of nice to have 3 bigs coming back instead of just 2.
Chuckwu would be a project player no doubt. Yet is that a bad thing?
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Interesting hypothesis.
I wonder every once in awhile about the closeness in times of the reputed arrest and the reputed inappropriate loan activity.
Not sure why it might matter, but it seems an anomaly.
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@jaybate-1.0 They were approximately a month apart. The Howard arrest happened in July and the loan happened in August of 2014.
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I donât necessarily disagree with you but at this point I donât see a lot of difference between Coleby and ChuckwuâŚmaybe we can call them Colby Cheese and Chucky Cheese. I for one donât get too hung up on whether a player is 6-9 or 7-0, The two most productive bigs KU has had in the Self era, TRob and Simien were both 6-9 (or less) and I would take either one over Chuckwu or most every other 7 footer. Based on what he has shown to date, a productive Chuckwu would be a bonus but not a player I would rely on.
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I wonder if that were the date the loan papers were recorded, or the date when the loan was negotiated, or the date when the loan was first formally proposed, or the date when the idea of some kind of bridge financing were first informally remarked upon, or the date some one got the original idea? Do you catch my drift here? If it were the date of recording, then one would expect there to have been a process with a time frame leading up to the recording. Just an idle thought. Still doesnât really mean anything that I can see.
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@DoubleDD said:
Iâm all in on Colby Cheese
Had Colbey gone to Texas instead of KU, would he have been known as Colbey Longhorn?
:goberserk:
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@jaybate-1.0 The loan date is the UCC filing date. Whatâs known about the situation is that it was an agent (or an agentâs runner) that pointed Cliffâs mom to the loan agency and the lawyer later on. I donât think Howard any involvement or knowledge of the loan situation because thatâs the type of infraction that gets a coach a show cause tag and basically black balls them from college coaching.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Great point. I donât think so. Maybe he was the turning point.
However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!
Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.
Yeah, like his 41pt game against WVU was it? That was awesome. Broke the freshmen single game and season scoring records at KU.