whats up with Vick?
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@DoubleDD Players who can score down low are key to Self’s offense. Players who want to score down low are the key to Self’s offense. My point is that they have not historically been taller than 6’9". In fact, @sfbahawk indicated that at the pre-draft combine Withey measured 6’10-3/4". That’s even better. The numbers I used were KU numbers and as has been the topic of more than one thread those numbers are usually inflated.
Who said anything about a guard heavy team? Try pinning that on someone else. It wasn’t me.
The argument of some is that it is critical to get Chukwu because he is a footer. Past history does not support that claim. You obviously aren’t too excited about Coleby. I don’t know whether he will pan out or not. Self must think so or he wouldn’t have signed him. What I do know is that he meets Self’s profile of big men. If you look at the builds of his bigs, Coleby is closer to that than is Chukwu. It doesn’t appear that Coleby will have to spend as much time with Hudy as would others. JoJo was very impressive as a freshman. He was a very good learner and his footwork was amazing. One of his biggest problems was his lack of strength. He could be moved out easier than some.
I would love to have Chukwu on the team but his presence is not critical. I cannot imagine that Self will lose any sleep in the next couple of years if he goes elsewhere.
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@sfbahawk I would tend to agree with you on seven footers. They’re nice to have, but not a necessity. I think that is what @DoubleDD said – “HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft.”
But the one thing that is clear, a tall, long kid can be a game changer. That why I want Chukwu. When given a choice, I’d rather have a Chukwu type than a Coleby type.
Ideally, really, we’d have both. Imagine 7’2" Chukwu and 6’9" bruiser Coleby together in the post. Sounds good?
Maybe. They need to be skilled. They need to be able to score on the block.
Personally, my opinion has been that we need back to the basket scoring. But I don’t care if it’s Wayne Simien height or Joel Embiid height. Again, I’d rather have good, skilled, taller players. But we have won without it.
The reason I’m not excited about Coleby is that Coleby was a role player at Ole Miss. He was unranked. He hasn’t been spectacular. I think there is an argument that he is just insurance – that he may not be a real answer in the rotation. But sure, he could be more. Not being excited about doesn’t mean, at least for me, that I don’t like the acquisition. I’d just rather have Chukwu.
With Chukwu, we have a more highly though of player out of high school. Taller and longer, and certainly rim protector stuff. A guy that after a year here may project more to a Withey type, the kind of guy we all think (I’m guessing you too) fits well in Self’s system.
I’m fine with the Coleby acquisition. But I want more. I now want both. I want Chukwu. Is it “critical”? Probably not.
Who was the best post player in Self’s tenure at Kansas? Probably TRob’s 2011-12 season. But he was paired with Withey. Did Withey make him better? I’m pretty confident that he did.
I want both.
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So to distill your reassurances that this is one of the best rosters, since 2010-11, and a team that can challenge for a ring–here goes:
Svi will be good but probably not as good as Oubre. Well, ummm, we didn’t challenge for a ring even with Oubre. How exactly are we going to challenge with someone not quite as good?
Well, adding Diallo and Bragg makes us way better, right?
But Diallo has no back to basket offense, which was the problem with our bigs last season.
And Bragg appears so slender he will not be able to stay on a spot, nor knock an offender off his.
Of course, Diallo has a 7-2 wing span, same as Oubre had, and is only an inch or two taller and Oubre, and I don’t recall Kelly’s wing span compelling Self to use Kelly as a post defender against footers. Not sure this makes me sleep better.
You’re not worried about facing footers without guys that can defend footers, because KU won’t see many footers during the regular season…though they will play in a post season tournament in which last season 8 of the top ten teams in the country that got into the tournament had 1 to 4 footers and KU will inevitably face and likely not be able to matchup with the footer . Again, you are not making me feel like swaggering about my birds here.
You say we have depth and experience on the perimeter and appear unconcerned about the following things impairing that depth and experience:
a.) Selden’s inability to dribble drive, his enduring psychological scars from knee surgery, reduced hop and pop from knee surgery, sharply limited ability to elevate except on a full speed run, extremely uneven focus, and a tendency to disappear for several games at a time;
b.) BG is coming off a hip surgery known for long rehabs and was not good enough last season to take 20 mpg away from Oubre, when Oubre was wearing a gauze gob on his injured knee, and Selden was disappearing 2-3 games at a time.
Vick’s contribution to our depth seems questionable, because he is so thin he likely will not be able to stay on a spot, or keep from being shoved out of his cuts on offense; nor will he likely be able to play physical defense his first season.
You figure Coleby meets a “profile” Self has for big men, which apparently includes Jamari Traylor, Hunter Mickelson, and Landon Lucas; this is not making me more confident.
That pretty much covers the list of the confidence enhancers, right?
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To everyone denying Self needs footers…
Things changed last year.
The game went from general talent stacks, to footer stacks.
No teams without footers seriously challenged for the ring last season.
MSU backed in, then got exposed in the FF.
Footer stacks, or “near” footer stacks, if one wants to pick nits, makes the eight or so teams with footer stacks very dominant.
Stacking has changed everything about footers except the way we think about them.
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It seems something has changed.
KU’s recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
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Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
Where do you draw the line? 6-10?, 6-11? how about a very athletic 6-9 that can out jump and out rebound a true 7 footer? You seem to be too fixated on the height and not enough on the talent. Let’s remember that Chuckwu was a role player at Providence, not an elite major program but Providence, where he was #9 in the team in minutes per game…the textbook definition of role player. He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. Let’s not anoint Chuckwu as the next Embiid or the savior of the Hi-Lo.
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I always draw the line at 6-11.
I believe doing so is established by international weights and measures standards, isn’t it?
Seriously, you have to draw the line at 6-11, or we are not talking near footers.
I have never had trouble guarding a guy because he had an inch on me.
But anyone that has two inches, or more, on me always got harder to guard late in the game when I could jump less.
So: yeah, 6-11, or taller is the “near footer” guideline.
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Post Script: There wasn’t one guy in the top eight teams in the country last season with a footer stack that had even one footer as good as Embiid. Not even Kaminsky. So I’m with you step for step on not annointing anyone the next Embiid. Chuckwu is absolutely vital because he is a footer and KU doesn’t have one.
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@jaybate-1.0 Provided Beed gets healthy and remains so throughout his rookie season, he will get RoY. Im calling it right now. Wish he could have stayed. But, in today’s world, your projected in the top 3 or 2 of the draft, how can you turn that down?
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
It seems something has changed.
KU’s recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
Did Wigs go down when he signed?
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Again, height alone does not make great player. Our last win last year was against New Mexico State that has Tanveer Bhullar, a 7-3 Canadian Center that even HEM would play way, way behind Traylor :). At this point Chuckwu is 7 feet of potential and by no means a proven commodity…maybe Coach Self saw more potential on 6-9 Coleby. Just sayin’
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I so hope his back heals. He is one of the greatest center prospects I have ever seen. NBA Hall of Fame was within his grasp pre injury. But back injuries are just killers five years out, even if you recover pretty fully initially.
Unless every thing fits together just perfectly and you do just the right amount of muscle building to augment any enduring structural changes in the spine, then disk deformation and arthritis converge down stream and your career is shortened.
Larry Bird is the poster boy for best case scenario of this back injury phenomenon, but even he is a tragic case of what might have been. Watch tape of him his first season and a half in the NBA and at Indiana State and you know why Red Auerbach thought he had a chance to be the greatest NBA player ever and drafted him because of it. But then after his back injury–the exact nature of which I cannot now recall–he had to completely retool his game from this running, jumping, high flying hick from French Lick style into that long, low shuffling X-axis game that he became famous for. He was so great he could play with a bad back for a career and win a couple rings. But without the back injury, there is just no telling how many rings he would have won.
I put Embiid in this same kind of category, even though he was sushi from having grown up not balling.
Embiid has it all but a money shot and that will come, if the injury permits.
He is just so awesomely gifted athletically.
But the back is just such a complicated place.
Only time will tell.
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@jaybate-1.0 I figure the biggest reasons why KU will be better is because they likely won’t have their best deep shooter injure his hip again, won’t have an assistant coach get suspended from all team activities for two week in late February, have their best low post player player held out because of NCAA issues, or have their bast player at about 50% during the NCAA tournament. I also figure there isn’t a dominant program of the caliber of Kentucky, Duke, Wisconsin, or Virginia pre Justin Anderson injury.
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Agree with you down the line.
The biggest opportunity this KU team will have is Devonte’s improvement.
Devonte hung in out on the floor as a freshman sub; that was pretty impressive, even though he couldn’t really stand the heat down the stretch (to be expected).
Diallo and Bragg are going to look great against our easy opponents and get schooled all season long by our good opponents.
Vick? I see a potential Michael Cooper kind of guy (a skinny old Laker player from long ago now) in two seasons, once he gets the sinew a little stronger, and finds out what intensity is, but this season we will be lucky if he can give us what Devonte gave us his first season.
I agree Frank will get better, but he is likely not to have as fiery hot of a trey ball this season. Guys can’t usually sustain that two seasons in a row.
This should be a good roster for Self to try to get another conference title with, especially with Fred gone, Bruce doing his usual neutron bomb think in Manhattan, and Shaka finding his way in Austin his first season.
Never very worried about Drew, though he will have some players as usual.
The guy I am worried about is Trent Johnson at TCU. If he can get a player or two that can score, he is going to be dangerous. He is a very tough customer. If I am Big Shoe and Big Agent, plus the new African American coaches association and Drake Group, I would be networking for him and targeting him for a stack like Johnny Jones at LSU and Cuonzo at UC Berkeley.
Everything about player distribution and which coach gets the talent has always appeared to have had a strong network dimension. Self came up through the Okie Baller Mafia and has always been able to rely on that in tough times. Pitino’s disciples are a formidable network. Pair these networks up with Big Shoe and Big Agent and you’ve got what we’ve seen up till recently.
Now there seems to be this emerging network that converges the new African American coaches association advocating for African American hirings, plus Big Shoe, plus Big Agent, plus some of the sports think tanks that have evolved political clout on a few campuses (e.g., Harry Edwards institute at UC) plus The Drake Group advocacy helping blow up a few programs and thus potentially creating some openings to be filled, plus the long established assistant coaches association that has long been a force in recruiting. If I am this apparently new convergence group, I have to be looking at Trent Johnson and think he is in the right city, with the right eye ball count, and recruiting base, and a power conference, so STACK HIM, STACK HIM HIGH! But so far, Trent hasn’t been getting the love. Not sure why. He’s a Mike Montgomery guy who played at Boise State. He did the usual .500 thing at UNevada first time out, then had a .625 run at Stanford but the black eye came when he fell back to .500 at LSU. Boot. Landed at TCU. At first I thought he was a chump. But he’s not. Hmmm. Montgomery just got run from UC for Cuonzo. And Trent got run from LSU for Johnny Jones. UC has a stack. LSU has a stack. Hmmmm. Maybe Trent and Mike are on the outs with the stackers. I don’t know. But the guy can coach muscle ball with guys that can’t shoot. Give him some scorers and he could put up Ws. Its hard to admit, because he comes off as kind of a jerk sometimes. But I believer in meritocracy, not networkocracy. So: I’m changing my tune on Trent and I’m saying, get this man some scorers. And if he’s on the outs with the stackers, then he’s probably doubly alright with me.
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Lots of near footers (@JayHawkFanToo and I have decided on this new term based on international standards for weights and measures and my childhood experience of guarding guys 1 inch taller versus guys 2 inches taller :-)) still.
Maybe not as many footers and maybe not a four stack, but likely enough to put two stack programs with a footer or two in each region and weed KU out early, because KU lacks a footer, eh?
On the other hand, you make a sterling case for the non recruiting related ways that KU should get better.
Jump shift.
What about Snacks?
Is he being kept in place only until all the risk of blow back from Cliff is gone, or has Self put him on a very short leash and is making him a reclamation project for the long term?
Snacks seems conspicuous in his absence from the Cliff drama and from current recruiting news.
What do you think?
Does anyone know if Snacks has been reported to be out on the recruiting trail this off season?
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Right you are and we absolutely don’t need a great footer.
We just need an adequate footer to match up so we are not completely mismatched and lose solely because of that.
Chuckwu appears just good enough to fill the bill to me.
Just good enough; that’s all our non stack program need to go along with its great coach who is good at gerry rigging defenses to over come talent deficiencies, if he at least has the physical match up covered.
Gotta have a footer in today’s game to face the footers at the 8 or so stack programs.
Gotta have it.
Chukwu be da only option on duh table now.
Coleby will be a great match up for Ratso Izzo’s 6-8 to 6-9 prison bodies, but he is exactly NOT the right match up for the footers.
To parody T.S. Eliot, or someone, we need to prepare some footers to meet the footers that we meet.
Rock Chalk!
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Great point. I don’t think so. Maybe he was the turning point.
However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!
Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.
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Yes, Jeff Withey IS the greatest KU triafectate of all time!!!
Imagine how much fun Jeff will always have holding that over all the great KU shooters he meets in the L and later at reunions in the coming years.
Yeah, Xavier, you were a pretty good trey dinger, but I never missed one, dude!
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It IS critical to get a footer now.
It didn’t used to be critical.
Unless of course you have learned to luv the BAD BALL.
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@jaybate-1.0 I’LL TAKE THE FOOTER, I’LL TAKE THE FOOTER!!!
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YESSSSSSSS!!!
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@jaybate-1.0 My opinion on Snacks is that he should’ve been fired the day the season ended. I don’t care the weed part of the situation, that was never a big deal to me. The big to me was always the failure to be honest and up front about the arrest and I will always wonder in the back of my head what else he hasn’t been up front about, including the Cliff situation. I also don’t think we’ll ever hear anything more about the situation because the NCAA will never get their hands on the loan documents themselves that they need to complete the investigation because they don’t have the legal authority to do so and there was nothing illegal about the loan from a real stand point.
I also think Snacks is an overrated recruiter and I really wouldn’t miss him on staff. He had early success at Texas A&M under Gillespie, but wasn’t great at Kentucky, Illinois, and hasn’t been anything special here in recruiting. Kurtis Townsend is the top of mountain when it comes to recruiting.
A lot of people have disagreed with me on this, but I believe the Jerrance Howard suspension was the biggest factor in KU’s struggles down the stretch last year. Howard was suspended on Feb. 12, KU was 20-4 (9-2) when Howard was suspended and went 6-4 against Big 12 teams, and 7-5 overall after that. The Ellis injury did have a negative as well, but I don’t think it had the same impact the Howard suspension had on the overall outcome of the season.
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No, No, I’m all in on Colby Cheese, and think KU’s should also go after Chukwu. 6’9 or 7ft it doesn’t matter to me. You guys want to get hung up on 3 inches knock yourself out. If HCBS doesn’t have bigs then KU because very beatable. I’m not alone in this thinking as we look around the college game. Everybody is trying to get all the bigs they can.
Just look at Chukwu. In all honesty it’s not like he was tearing it up at his former school. Yet he decides to change schools and reopens his recruitment and he has a list of KU, Spartans, and Virginia. That’s not a bad list of schools interested in your services.
So I guess I have to disagree with you. There is a merit and should be a desire to sign Chukwu.
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@JayHawkFanToo says
" He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. "
Isn’t that recruiting? Even OAD’s can prove to be a disappointment. I’m not sure anybody is claiming Chuckwu as the savior of HCBS Hi/low? He would be a nice get though With all the bigs KU will be losing after this season it would be kind of nice to have 3 bigs coming back instead of just 2.
Chuckwu would be a project player no doubt. Yet is that a bad thing?
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Interesting hypothesis.
I wonder every once in awhile about the closeness in times of the reputed arrest and the reputed inappropriate loan activity.
Not sure why it might matter, but it seems an anomaly.
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@jaybate-1.0 They were approximately a month apart. The Howard arrest happened in July and the loan happened in August of 2014.
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I don’t necessarily disagree with you but at this point I don’t see a lot of difference between Coleby and Chuckwu…maybe we can call them Colby Cheese and Chucky Cheese. I for one don’t get too hung up on whether a player is 6-9 or 7-0, The two most productive bigs KU has had in the Self era, TRob and Simien were both 6-9 (or less) and I would take either one over Chuckwu or most every other 7 footer. Based on what he has shown to date, a productive Chuckwu would be a bonus but not a player I would rely on.
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I wonder if that were the date the loan papers were recorded, or the date when the loan was negotiated, or the date when the loan was first formally proposed, or the date when the idea of some kind of bridge financing were first informally remarked upon, or the date some one got the original idea? Do you catch my drift here? If it were the date of recording, then one would expect there to have been a process with a time frame leading up to the recording. Just an idle thought. Still doesn’t really mean anything that I can see.
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@DoubleDD said:
I’m all in on Colby Cheese
Had Colbey gone to Texas instead of KU, would he have been known as Colbey Longhorn?
:goberserk:
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@jaybate-1.0 The loan date is the UCC filing date. What’s known about the situation is that it was an agent (or an agent’s runner) that pointed Cliff’s mom to the loan agency and the lawyer later on. I don’t think Howard any involvement or knowledge of the loan situation because that’s the type of infraction that gets a coach a show cause tag and basically black balls them from college coaching.
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
Great point. I don’t think so. Maybe he was the turning point.
However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!
Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.
Yeah, like his 41pt game against WVU was it? That was awesome. Broke the freshmen single game and season scoring records at KU.
