whats up with Vick?
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One way Chukwu could come to KU is with an academic scholarship from almost any source. He could become a red-shirt walk-on for this season and then be awarded a scholarship for '16-'17.
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so we are going to run our backup center (maybe starter to begin season) who’s already red-shirted to make way for what??? what is so special about Chukwu that we are contemplating every what if situation besides running Bill Self out of town to give him a scholly. pretty funny stuff around here
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@BeddieKU23 No i agree with you believe me - i was just speculating on why Lucas’s name was not mentioned as possible guys that could be theoretically “run out” when Traylor and Mickelson and greene were mentioned frequently. HEM helpfully pointed out that lucas’s stats are not as i perceived, and Jaybate set me straight on the fact that it’s not an either/or situation with Coleby and Chukwu- we still need a footer 5 guy regardless.
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There are just 8 reasons: the eight teams in the top ten at the end of the season with footers and good perimeter players.
And three of them ruled to the Final Four.
And MSU proved that STACKING has progressed to a point that UCONN’s ring was the end of something, not the start.
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@Bosthawk Lucas is not a good option to force out because the reason for wanting Chukwu is because KU is going to be thin in the front court in 2016-17.
@jaybate-1.0 There’s one flaw in you 7 footer theory, 2 of the last 3 national champs didn’t have a 7 footer on the roster, so it’s not a necessity.
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@Bosthawk You assume right. Yes, Lucas was the best rebounder … appx. .29 per minute. Mickelson .25 and Traylor .18 per minute. Right now, I value Lucas over the other two.
@BeddieKU23 Remember, what we’re talking about is real potential vs. pedestrian.
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It is not a flaw at all IMHO.
The two seasons you cite are irrelevant.
Things have changed.
There are tipping points in everything.
There is a tipping point for how many footers and other talent are required to overwhelm opponents with footers, just as there might be tipping points in how many 450 pound linemen it will take on how many NFL teams one day to turn all of the Super Bowl winners into teams with 450 pound lineman.
Stacking is a quantitative phenomenon occurring within a dynamic game space in which equilibrium strategy keeps altering based on the changing distribution of footers and complementary talent.
Stacking one team with only six great talents at UK did it in 2012.
But we are witnessing narrowing talent distributions that reduce the number of teams that can seriously compete to those with stacking currency, if you will, in this case footers.
Repeating the stack with Nerlen Noels didn’t get it done the next season, so the stacking was increased and focused on footer redundancy, because Nerlen Noels injury proved that complementary talent could not compensate for catastrophic injury. Embiid’s injury proved the same thing for KU.
The system learns. Its a feedback loop. And it has some facets of rational expectations theory; that is there is some inflation of expectation of what it takes to keep getting the same benefit stacking year after stacking year.
There will always be statistical anomalies under any equilibrium strategy, but you have to face the reality that eight of the top ten teams were multi-footer stacks last season and two of the Final Four teams were multi-footer stacks and one had the new Stretch Five Footer, while only one was footerless–MSU–and it got manhandled even though it had the only kind of a coach playing the only kind of style that might be able to be a multi footer stack, other than my idea of shooting 80-90 percent of one’s field goal attempts as treys, which with a 30 second shot clock will become even more feasible to do. But coaches are very slow to take risk. They are highly paid and so risk averse, and so prefer the rigged formula of skewed distribution of footers by Big Shoe-Agent conveyor systems than trying radical new offensive solutions. They know that even if they come up with a better offensive mouse trap, as Self did this past season with Bad Ball, that the refs will intervene and make sure it does not prevail. So the only rational move for coaches is to try to get in on the stacking process and the equilibrium strategy so far for stacking is no more than eight stacks. All these adidas coaches appear to be marking time trying to win conference titles, knowing they likely can’t win a ring anymore, in hopes of hanging around long enough for the powers that be to informally institute a more broadly distributed talent stacking array. Some of them get impatient and give up, like Donovan. Some of the decide its apparently time to switch sides, like Cuonzo. Some of them like Self try to augment the adidas talent with with off-shores and transfers and diamonds in the rough. Self is such a great coach he can keep eeking out conference titles that keep the fans content, while he looks secret passages and little harbors that the blockade hasn’t sealed off.
In the years you cite to try to make your case, you fail to point out that there were not 8 multi-footer stacks in those years, so those years are relevant only if you argue that the era of multi footer stacks of eight are the future.
What appears to be happening is that the system is still oscillating through equilibrium strategies looking for the optimal way to dominate the Final Four AND ensure sufficient talent at the right number of teams to create the statistically probable level of stack dominance to achieve optimum gambling revenues and optimum branding of players at stack programs, which designed Final Fours will enable.
We may see the model reequilibrate at ten stacks of 3 footer per stack, or we may see the model reequilibrate at 12 stacks at two footers per stack, or even three stacks of four footers and an OAD point guard.
The system is a feed back loop that is reconciling the dynamics of shoe branding, gambling, and viewing audience; that is what is my hypothesis of what is going on and your argument is not refuting it. It is just selectively slicing time series data and leaving out shifting equilibrium distributions of talent and and strategy of the feed back loop with the incentive systems that are in place.
Of course, all of the above is hypothesis and speculation.
Rock Chalk!!!
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So what does this have to do with Vick?
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Nothing really. I am just addressing the portion of the thread relating to Chukwu. Vick doesn’t really matter much except for this season. Self failed to get an Oubre replacement and BG got a tough surgery, so Self needs a warm body and LB helped us out it appears. But the adidas conveyor will likely bring us someone better than Vick by next year, unless the adidas conveyor is truly broken.
You see there are always exceptions to rules.
Wiggins was an exception to the rule that long time Nike leans generally are not turned to adidas. And Jaylen Brown is an exception to the rule that adidas leans are not generally turned to Nike.
But the tendency weighs in over time. Next season, the adidas conveyor is likely to spit out a perimeter player better than Vick at 130 whatever that Vick is ranked. Vick could easily be a transfer next season, because of an OAD, and other returning players, or perhaps not if he improves mightily in weight, strength, and skill this coming season.
My argument here is that Vick and Chuckwu are basically independent of each other.
Chuckwu is basically independent of everyone on the team returning and coming in new.
He is the only footer we believe is available to us that could play not this season but next.
We have no reason to believe that KU is going to switch to Nike and so become a stack school. And we have no reason to think that adidas has a enough footers available for next year for Self to get one. If adidas has such a player lined up for Self, well that’s one and he really needs two or more, unless one is a Stretch 5 a la Kaminsky. But the point is that Self will try to sign Chuckwu even if adidas has a footer bun in the oven for him.
Footers are that necessary to winning 80 percent of your games.
Because teams have to have footers in the stack era, and because Chuckwu is available now, he has to be taken, if he wants to play for KU.
Self has fallen from stratospheric winning levels of 82% to human levels of 7os percent the last two years.
He can’t just go back to the type of talent he used to get his first eight years, because there weren’t footer stacks in those days.
Now he has to get himself some footers every year if he’s going to get back up to the sweet spot of 82 percent.
Or he’s got to drastically soften the schedule and accept never getting to the Final Four.
The man plays to win.
He’s going to find a way to get his footers.
It may take him a couple of years to find the crack in the door, but if its there, he will find it.
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@jaybate-1.0 Vick was ranked at 33 and a 5 star on rivals and 51 on espn’s top 100 this morning.
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@jaybate-1.0 Not buying the 7 footer theory because there simply isn’t the volume of 7 footers to do this.
Also, KU already has Oubre’s replacement on the roster, he was signed last year when Self dumped AW3. Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk is Kelly Oubre’s replacement.
Also, LaGerald Vick did get bumped up to #33 before he signed with KU which is a similar jump to what Svi made in the rankings last year.
As I debated with HEM yesterday, I personally think it’s stupid to boot someone off of this team that is on the very short list of title contenders this year to prepare for 2016-17 where KU is not guaranteed to be on the short list of title contenders even with Chukwu.
As much as people are talking about building for 2016-17, you’d think KU wasn’t in any kind of position to make the NCAA tournament this year, let alone contend for a national title.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you are stretching the discussion just a bit to fit your narrative. Most everyone thinks KU is a national title contender this season. No doubt. I think that is the consensus, not the exception. However, my position is that if we lost Traylor or Mickelson, it wouldn’t matter one bit. And actually, I think if we lost Traylor we would be better. Addition by subtraction, the Naadir Tharpe way (but for other reasons). In principle, I agree that we should not ditch someone that, if we lost them, it would make us worse for 2015-16.
Greene is an interesting discussion on that line of thought. I think Greene could be tremendous. But as the 5th perimeter guy, and the marginalizing of his one main skill … hitting the step in three pointer … I tend to think we could survive. Because of Vick, I’d part with Greene if it meant Chukwu. That might not be the wise decision, though, I admit.
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I guess this is not about Vick??
Just throwing my two cents out there. After watching the nightmare unfold last year. Two things came to my mind.
One is HCBS doesn’t change his system to the talent he puts on the floor. He expects those players to run his system without question.
Two when HCBS doesn’t have the players to run his system. KU becomes very beatable.
So what do we do? Do we get rid of HCBS? No of course not. However if we are going to keep him then he should recruit to his system, and us fans should let him. I would hate to see any current KU player let go for any reason, but HCBS system requires big men, and Chukwu is a big man.
I say sadly let the chips fall where they may, but sign Chukwu. Scholarships are giving on a yearly basis. Just because you dream of going to the moon, becoming the president of the Untied States or playing for the Kansas Jayhawks doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Especially in this day in age of the shoe wars, media contracts, and conference realignment.
The old days are gone. There is no more time allowed for rebuilding. To survive one must reload. Just look at how far UCLA has fallen. They’re not even the top dog of the West Coast anymore, and they were once a blue blood. The game has changed my friends.
If we keep HCBS then we get big men anyway we can. Even if it means clearing a spot on the roster.
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@HighEliteMajor We can go back and forth all day long about whether or not Traylor, Greene, and Mickelson make KU better, but that’s not a discussion that will ever bear any fruit because we simply have different opinions on Greene and Traylor’s value to Kansas basketball.
In regards to Brannen Greene, let’s say he’s on the court with Mason, Graham, Bragg, and Diallo and KU is in their high-low set. Diallo gets the ball and is double teamed by his man and a guard, KU at that point has three 40%+ 3 point shooters on the floor and one of them is wide open. The ability to discourage double teams in the post because of the 3 point ability of the guards is not something that cannot be overlooked when it comes to making the high-low more effective.
Let me ask you a question about this situation. We both know that Traylor and Mickelson haven’t graduated yet so that rules them out as graduate transfers. Neither player has the disciplinary history that Tharpe did to justify removal, so how does Bill Self remove a would be redshirt senior that hasn’t graduated yet and doesn’t have a history of disciplinary issues without damaging his ability to recruit 4 year players?
Aside from the on court issues, the off court PR damage from kicking a would be redshirt senior off the team for a project player, Chukwu may have a high ceiling but he is a project at this point, I would lose a significant amount of respect for Bill Self for pulling a move like that on a 22-23 year old kid who hasn’t graduated yet.
At this point, the only viable way to land Chukwu would for someone on scholarship to move to walk on status. There’s just not another option that doesn’t hurt KU either on the court or off the court.
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@DoubleDD Since 2001 Bill Self has had 14 players taller than 6’9" on his teams at Illinois and KU. Of those only Embiid and Withey were footers. At Illinois only 2 of them contributed, Cook and Augustine. At KU he has had Kaun, Giles, Niang, Aldrich, Withey, Markief Morris, Lucas, Embiid, and Mickelson. Of those Kaun, Aldrich, Withey, Morris, and Embiid. were important contributors. That means that since 2001 Self has had 7 contributing players over 6’9" with only 2 footers.
There were obviously other front court players who could score down low but they were 6’9" or less. Self needs players that can score down low; however, it is not clear that he needs footers. Would it be nice to have bigger studs. Of course. Is it absolutely necessary? NO. Of course we have won only one NC during that time. On the other hand, when we did cut down the nets the only player on the list, Kaun, came off of the bench.
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Well seems to be a strong opinion by many on this thread that chukwu is essential, and that we need to make room for him somehow. Self should get traylor, mickelson and lucas in a room ( hell, get all the players in the room just so they are PERFECTLY clear on what is the bottom line at KU apparently) and give them a speech like this -
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Withey was measured at the pre-draft combine at 6’ 10- 3/4" so technically he is not a footer.
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Not selling!
In the 8 stack program era era that started this past season, KU isn’t a ring contender without a footer and without an equivalent replacement for Oubre, and with 6-9 no offense Diallo and 6-10 no offense Lucas manning the post. If opponents teed off on Perry last season, he may not make it through the front nine this year.
The logic goes like this: how can they be net better when they have lost more than they gained? They lost two OADs and recruited one. They lost BG–a junior to rehab-- for part of a season and gained Vick, a reclassifying frosh no higher ranked than BG was. They have no one that can guard a footer, nor a two footer rotation. They have no one that can guard a draft choice three.
KU this season is a B12 contenduh, not a ring contenduh?
They lost more than they gained unless Svi does a supernova.
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Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
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Has Vick actually improved his game that much?
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Maybe, that’s a tough question to ask. I think more than anything Vick didn’t get the exposure before this spring on the AAU scene and fell through the cracks as they say. Then when he finally played some tournaments he was much better than anyone had realized, dominant to a point offensively. Some of it probably is due to marked improvement in his game which bodes well for us because he could have the potential to start as a Soph if the cards play out for him.
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@jaybate-1.0 Greene will be available for the entire season, at least in SelfSpeak.
Mason may improve.
Graham is likely to improve: college PGs generally improve the most between freshman and sophomore seasons.
Svi is likely to improve.
Overall, we could be about as good on the perimeter (1 through 3).
Yes, the 5 is a problem.
How can this lineup be an inside/out team?
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You make a fine point, but if you against one aspect then you are for the other. Meaning you think HCBS should stay loaded at the guard positions. As your theory is that bigs aren’t really the key to HCBS success.
All I can say is you must of not watched the same KU team that I watched last year? HCBS isn’t not going to change is system to accommodate a guard heavy team. He’s going to play his high low game period. What was on the floor last year left a very sic feeling in my stomach. There is not a KU fan in here that can look me in the eyes and say yea I thought last years team really had a shot at the final 4, let alone a championship.
They were terrible in the paint, and HCBS refused to change his game plan. HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft. After this year Ellis, Tralyor, Mickelson are gone, and there is very good chance that Diallo and Bragg are gone too. That leaves Lucas and Cobley Cheese. The need for Chuckwu goes way beyond the footer debate. If KU were to get Chuckwu they would at the very least have three bigs that know the system and would take off some of the pressure to land two bigs in the 2016 class of recruits.
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I don’t think Bragg will get the PT to warrant leaving after 1 year. He knows after this year the paint is his. He’s a potential lotto pick if he sticks around and he seems like a kid who wants to develop in the system.
At some point we are going to want to get young big men in the system. Bolden would be the ideal fit. We will need at least 1 big next year if Diallo does go pro. Too early to tell what will happen
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I would love to believe you and would love to agree with you. However the NBA draft isn’t about what have you accomplished. It’s about potential and whether they are willing to take a chance on you. Bragg very well could be here for a few years, but if he comes out and shows flashes of what he can become. He’s gone. Money talks in this day in age.
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your right in many ways, I just feel with him playing behind Ellis its going to be hard for him to get enough PT to leave. He’s not really on any NBA radar at the moment like Diallo already is. He may fly under the radar enough.
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@jaybate-1.0 Exposure is key to moving up the ranks. There is generally one guy for each rankings system out there and if you haven’t played in front of that guy much then he can not accurately rank you. That’s also why he has moved up on some boards but not others.
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Paul Biancardi @PaulBiancardi · 21h21 hours ago
Basketball Recruiting - LeGerald Vick - Now in the 100 for 2015 with an Evaluation.Biancardi has Vick at 51 on his board for ESPN. More exposure over the summer might have put him even higher?
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@jaybate-1.0 I think you’re discounting Diallo’s offensive game. Withey couldn’t make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid. Diallo is extremely quick, much quicker than anyone we’ve had since maybe TROB in the post, and I think his drives to the basket will result in lots of scoring opportunities.And, he will dunk, dunk, dunk. He has a relentless motor that makes him, imo, the best big man in the 2015 class. His defense will be light years ahead of what we endured last year.
Replacing Oubre at the 3 could be a challenge, but we do have a plethora of choices available. I’m sure we’ll see in-season tryouts. like we did at the 5 last year.
I’m very excited about this team. It’s been since 2012 since we’ve went into a season with so much experience, which was the last time we made the FF.
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@KUSTEVE said:
Withey couldn’t make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid.
Withey made 100% of his 3s at KU
Seriously, Embiid could always shoot some.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do believe KU is going to be better than last year and there is reason why Las Vegas has KU as the 4th/5th favorite to win the title this year.
Is it a guarantee that Svi will be as good as Oubre next season? No, it’s not, but there’s a reason why he was considered KU’s best NBA prospect last year despite the amount of bench time he saw. Don’t forget that Svi was just 17 last year and doesn’t turn 18 until next week (June 10). He has the skill, his body is continuing to mature, he has experience now and it’s just a matter of time until he shows why he’s a projected mid 1st round pick in the 2016 draft. You may say it’s a net negative, but don’t forget that Self backed off the elite wings in 2015 AFTER Svi and Brannen announced they would be back.
Speaking of Brannen, the time table for his return was approximately 5 months which at the time of his surgery puts Labor Day as the approximate target date for his return. That’s 2 months before the season starts so barring some kind of major set back, BG will be ready to go for the season.
The front court is where KU will see the most improvement. Diallo and Bragg should be much better on the court overall than Cliff was last year. Diallo isn’t going to be asked to shoot anything outside of 5’ other than FT’s and has a much higher motor than Cliff did. Diallo is also considered the best rim protector in the class which is what KU was missing last season.
You bring up Diallo’s ability to guard 7 footers. Two things about that, Diallo has a 7-2 wingspan and how teams with 7 footers does KU play in 2015-16? I can think of two and of those players may not be eligible to play. UC Irvine has that 7-5 kid, but it’s still UCI and KU should win that one. Kentucky has Skal Labissiere, but he still hasn’t been cleared to play by the NCAA yet and there’s a chance he won’t get cleared at all. Beyond those two players, I don’t know of a competent 7 footer that KU faces so worrying about something KU has to deal with twice on the known part of the schedule isn’t a big deal to me.
This is the best overall team KU has had since 2010-11. There is depth and experience on perimeter, there is experience on the wing, there is depth and experience in the front court. When was the last time KU had 5-6 upper classmen in their projected rotation? Mason, Selden, Ellis, Greene, Lucas and probably Traylor. Add in Graham and Svi who did play quite a bit last year and we’re talking 8 of the 9 rotation spots filled by players with experience.
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@DoubleDD Players who can score down low are key to Self’s offense. Players who want to score down low are the key to Self’s offense. My point is that they have not historically been taller than 6’9". In fact, @sfbahawk indicated that at the pre-draft combine Withey measured 6’10-3/4". That’s even better. The numbers I used were KU numbers and as has been the topic of more than one thread those numbers are usually inflated.
Who said anything about a guard heavy team? Try pinning that on someone else. It wasn’t me.
The argument of some is that it is critical to get Chukwu because he is a footer. Past history does not support that claim. You obviously aren’t too excited about Coleby. I don’t know whether he will pan out or not. Self must think so or he wouldn’t have signed him. What I do know is that he meets Self’s profile of big men. If you look at the builds of his bigs, Coleby is closer to that than is Chukwu. It doesn’t appear that Coleby will have to spend as much time with Hudy as would others. JoJo was very impressive as a freshman. He was a very good learner and his footwork was amazing. One of his biggest problems was his lack of strength. He could be moved out easier than some.
I would love to have Chukwu on the team but his presence is not critical. I cannot imagine that Self will lose any sleep in the next couple of years if he goes elsewhere.
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@sfbahawk I would tend to agree with you on seven footers. They’re nice to have, but not a necessity. I think that is what @DoubleDD said – “HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft.”
But the one thing that is clear, a tall, long kid can be a game changer. That why I want Chukwu. When given a choice, I’d rather have a Chukwu type than a Coleby type.
Ideally, really, we’d have both. Imagine 7’2" Chukwu and 6’9" bruiser Coleby together in the post. Sounds good?
Maybe. They need to be skilled. They need to be able to score on the block.
Personally, my opinion has been that we need back to the basket scoring. But I don’t care if it’s Wayne Simien height or Joel Embiid height. Again, I’d rather have good, skilled, taller players. But we have won without it.
The reason I’m not excited about Coleby is that Coleby was a role player at Ole Miss. He was unranked. He hasn’t been spectacular. I think there is an argument that he is just insurance – that he may not be a real answer in the rotation. But sure, he could be more. Not being excited about doesn’t mean, at least for me, that I don’t like the acquisition. I’d just rather have Chukwu.
With Chukwu, we have a more highly though of player out of high school. Taller and longer, and certainly rim protector stuff. A guy that after a year here may project more to a Withey type, the kind of guy we all think (I’m guessing you too) fits well in Self’s system.
I’m fine with the Coleby acquisition. But I want more. I now want both. I want Chukwu. Is it “critical”? Probably not.
Who was the best post player in Self’s tenure at Kansas? Probably TRob’s 2011-12 season. But he was paired with Withey. Did Withey make him better? I’m pretty confident that he did.
I want both.
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So to distill your reassurances that this is one of the best rosters, since 2010-11, and a team that can challenge for a ring–here goes:
Svi will be good but probably not as good as Oubre. Well, ummm, we didn’t challenge for a ring even with Oubre. How exactly are we going to challenge with someone not quite as good?
Well, adding Diallo and Bragg makes us way better, right?
But Diallo has no back to basket offense, which was the problem with our bigs last season.
And Bragg appears so slender he will not be able to stay on a spot, nor knock an offender off his.
Of course, Diallo has a 7-2 wing span, same as Oubre had, and is only an inch or two taller and Oubre, and I don’t recall Kelly’s wing span compelling Self to use Kelly as a post defender against footers. Not sure this makes me sleep better.
You’re not worried about facing footers without guys that can defend footers, because KU won’t see many footers during the regular season…though they will play in a post season tournament in which last season 8 of the top ten teams in the country that got into the tournament had 1 to 4 footers and KU will inevitably face and likely not be able to matchup with the footer . Again, you are not making me feel like swaggering about my birds here.
You say we have depth and experience on the perimeter and appear unconcerned about the following things impairing that depth and experience:
a.) Selden’s inability to dribble drive, his enduring psychological scars from knee surgery, reduced hop and pop from knee surgery, sharply limited ability to elevate except on a full speed run, extremely uneven focus, and a tendency to disappear for several games at a time;
b.) BG is coming off a hip surgery known for long rehabs and was not good enough last season to take 20 mpg away from Oubre, when Oubre was wearing a gauze gob on his injured knee, and Selden was disappearing 2-3 games at a time.
Vick’s contribution to our depth seems questionable, because he is so thin he likely will not be able to stay on a spot, or keep from being shoved out of his cuts on offense; nor will he likely be able to play physical defense his first season.
You figure Coleby meets a “profile” Self has for big men, which apparently includes Jamari Traylor, Hunter Mickelson, and Landon Lucas; this is not making me more confident.
That pretty much covers the list of the confidence enhancers, right?
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To everyone denying Self needs footers…
Things changed last year.
The game went from general talent stacks, to footer stacks.
No teams without footers seriously challenged for the ring last season.
MSU backed in, then got exposed in the FF.
Footer stacks, or “near” footer stacks, if one wants to pick nits, makes the eight or so teams with footer stacks very dominant.
Stacking has changed everything about footers except the way we think about them.
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It seems something has changed.
KU’s recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
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Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
Where do you draw the line? 6-10?, 6-11? how about a very athletic 6-9 that can out jump and out rebound a true 7 footer? You seem to be too fixated on the height and not enough on the talent. Let’s remember that Chuckwu was a role player at Providence, not an elite major program but Providence, where he was #9 in the team in minutes per game…the textbook definition of role player. He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. Let’s not anoint Chuckwu as the next Embiid or the savior of the Hi-Lo.
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I always draw the line at 6-11.
I believe doing so is established by international weights and measures standards, isn’t it?
Seriously, you have to draw the line at 6-11, or we are not talking near footers.
I have never had trouble guarding a guy because he had an inch on me.
But anyone that has two inches, or more, on me always got harder to guard late in the game when I could jump less.
So: yeah, 6-11, or taller is the “near footer” guideline.
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Post Script: There wasn’t one guy in the top eight teams in the country last season with a footer stack that had even one footer as good as Embiid. Not even Kaminsky. So I’m with you step for step on not annointing anyone the next Embiid. Chuckwu is absolutely vital because he is a footer and KU doesn’t have one.
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@jaybate-1.0 Provided Beed gets healthy and remains so throughout his rookie season, he will get RoY. Im calling it right now. Wish he could have stayed. But, in today’s world, your projected in the top 3 or 2 of the draft, how can you turn that down?
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@jaybate-1.0 said:
It seems something has changed.
KU’s recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
Did Wigs go down when he signed?
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Again, height alone does not make great player. Our last win last year was against New Mexico State that has Tanveer Bhullar, a 7-3 Canadian Center that even HEM would play way, way behind Traylor :). At this point Chuckwu is 7 feet of potential and by no means a proven commodity…maybe Coach Self saw more potential on 6-9 Coleby. Just sayin’
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I so hope his back heals. He is one of the greatest center prospects I have ever seen. NBA Hall of Fame was within his grasp pre injury. But back injuries are just killers five years out, even if you recover pretty fully initially.
Unless every thing fits together just perfectly and you do just the right amount of muscle building to augment any enduring structural changes in the spine, then disk deformation and arthritis converge down stream and your career is shortened.
Larry Bird is the poster boy for best case scenario of this back injury phenomenon, but even he is a tragic case of what might have been. Watch tape of him his first season and a half in the NBA and at Indiana State and you know why Red Auerbach thought he had a chance to be the greatest NBA player ever and drafted him because of it. But then after his back injury–the exact nature of which I cannot now recall–he had to completely retool his game from this running, jumping, high flying hick from French Lick style into that long, low shuffling X-axis game that he became famous for. He was so great he could play with a bad back for a career and win a couple rings. But without the back injury, there is just no telling how many rings he would have won.
I put Embiid in this same kind of category, even though he was sushi from having grown up not balling.
Embiid has it all but a money shot and that will come, if the injury permits.
He is just so awesomely gifted athletically.
But the back is just such a complicated place.
Only time will tell.
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@jaybate-1.0 I figure the biggest reasons why KU will be better is because they likely won’t have their best deep shooter injure his hip again, won’t have an assistant coach get suspended from all team activities for two week in late February, have their best low post player player held out because of NCAA issues, or have their bast player at about 50% during the NCAA tournament. I also figure there isn’t a dominant program of the caliber of Kentucky, Duke, Wisconsin, or Virginia pre Justin Anderson injury.
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Agree with you down the line.
The biggest opportunity this KU team will have is Devonte’s improvement.
Devonte hung in out on the floor as a freshman sub; that was pretty impressive, even though he couldn’t really stand the heat down the stretch (to be expected).
Diallo and Bragg are going to look great against our easy opponents and get schooled all season long by our good opponents.
Vick? I see a potential Michael Cooper kind of guy (a skinny old Laker player from long ago now) in two seasons, once he gets the sinew a little stronger, and finds out what intensity is, but this season we will be lucky if he can give us what Devonte gave us his first season.
I agree Frank will get better, but he is likely not to have as fiery hot of a trey ball this season. Guys can’t usually sustain that two seasons in a row.
This should be a good roster for Self to try to get another conference title with, especially with Fred gone, Bruce doing his usual neutron bomb think in Manhattan, and Shaka finding his way in Austin his first season.
Never very worried about Drew, though he will have some players as usual.
The guy I am worried about is Trent Johnson at TCU. If he can get a player or two that can score, he is going to be dangerous. He is a very tough customer. If I am Big Shoe and Big Agent, plus the new African American coaches association and Drake Group, I would be networking for him and targeting him for a stack like Johnny Jones at LSU and Cuonzo at UC Berkeley.
Everything about player distribution and which coach gets the talent has always appeared to have had a strong network dimension. Self came up through the Okie Baller Mafia and has always been able to rely on that in tough times. Pitino’s disciples are a formidable network. Pair these networks up with Big Shoe and Big Agent and you’ve got what we’ve seen up till recently.
Now there seems to be this emerging network that converges the new African American coaches association advocating for African American hirings, plus Big Shoe, plus Big Agent, plus some of the sports think tanks that have evolved political clout on a few campuses (e.g., Harry Edwards institute at UC) plus The Drake Group advocacy helping blow up a few programs and thus potentially creating some openings to be filled, plus the long established assistant coaches association that has long been a force in recruiting. If I am this apparently new convergence group, I have to be looking at Trent Johnson and think he is in the right city, with the right eye ball count, and recruiting base, and a power conference, so STACK HIM, STACK HIM HIGH! But so far, Trent hasn’t been getting the love. Not sure why. He’s a Mike Montgomery guy who played at Boise State. He did the usual .500 thing at UNevada first time out, then had a .625 run at Stanford but the black eye came when he fell back to .500 at LSU. Boot. Landed at TCU. At first I thought he was a chump. But he’s not. Hmmm. Montgomery just got run from UC for Cuonzo. And Trent got run from LSU for Johnny Jones. UC has a stack. LSU has a stack. Hmmmm. Maybe Trent and Mike are on the outs with the stackers. I don’t know. But the guy can coach muscle ball with guys that can’t shoot. Give him some scorers and he could put up Ws. Its hard to admit, because he comes off as kind of a jerk sometimes. But I believer in meritocracy, not networkocracy. So: I’m changing my tune on Trent and I’m saying, get this man some scorers. And if he’s on the outs with the stackers, then he’s probably doubly alright with me.
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Lots of near footers (@JayHawkFanToo and I have decided on this new term based on international standards for weights and measures and my childhood experience of guarding guys 1 inch taller versus guys 2 inches taller :-)) still.
Maybe not as many footers and maybe not a four stack, but likely enough to put two stack programs with a footer or two in each region and weed KU out early, because KU lacks a footer, eh?
On the other hand, you make a sterling case for the non recruiting related ways that KU should get better.
Jump shift.
What about Snacks?
Is he being kept in place only until all the risk of blow back from Cliff is gone, or has Self put him on a very short leash and is making him a reclamation project for the long term?
Snacks seems conspicuous in his absence from the Cliff drama and from current recruiting news.
What do you think?
Does anyone know if Snacks has been reported to be out on the recruiting trail this off season?
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Right you are and we absolutely don’t need a great footer.
We just need an adequate footer to match up so we are not completely mismatched and lose solely because of that.
Chuckwu appears just good enough to fill the bill to me.
Just good enough; that’s all our non stack program need to go along with its great coach who is good at gerry rigging defenses to over come talent deficiencies, if he at least has the physical match up covered.
Gotta have a footer in today’s game to face the footers at the 8 or so stack programs.
Gotta have it.
Chukwu be da only option on duh table now.
Coleby will be a great match up for Ratso Izzo’s 6-8 to 6-9 prison bodies, but he is exactly NOT the right match up for the footers.
To parody T.S. Eliot, or someone, we need to prepare some footers to meet the footers that we meet.
Rock Chalk!
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Great point. I don’t think so. Maybe he was the turning point.
However, he did start going down in rank while AT KU!!!
Self had to give him a few stat builders to get his rank back, as I recall.
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Yes, Jeff Withey IS the greatest KU triafectate of all time!!!
Imagine how much fun Jeff will always have holding that over all the great KU shooters he meets in the L and later at reunions in the coming years.
Yeah, Xavier, you were a pretty good trey dinger, but I never missed one, dude!
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It IS critical to get a footer now.
It didn’t used to be critical.
Unless of course you have learned to luv the BAD BALL.
