whats up with Vick?
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@Texas-Hawk-10 You know I was kidding about the weed comment I hope. Just a little levity.
I do not like the fact that White got run. But at the same time, I like having a coach that is going to make the tough call to create the roster he wants. I may not agree with the decision, but I agree with the approach. No pleasant task. If the coach does not think the player will play (White), or his negatives outweigh the positives (Tharpe), and he clogs a scholarship for what Self perceives to be a better player, then Self is doing the right thing in my opinion.
I think your logic fails here on Chukwu. If we lost either Mickelson, Traylor, or Greene, would you lose any sleep for the coming year? I wouldn’t. I love Greene, but not in Self’s system. Greene’s terrific, but my humble opinion is that Self doesn’t use him the right way. I’ve wasted a number of posts on that topic. I do think we’d be better if we lost Traylor. And with Mickelson, he’s just one big expectancy sitting on the end of the bench – and we got zero from his last season. Our season would have turned out the exact same way without Mickelson. So yes, I’d trade either big guy right now for Chukwu. And because we signed Vick, I’d part with Greene.
But I do respect your position – sticking with “our guys” has a lot of merit. I generally agree with that. It’s just when a guy is scholarship clogger that I might depart.
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@HighEliteMajor I personally wouldn’t be in favor of dumping Traylor or Greene for Chukwu, but if Mickelson were a realistic option, I wouldn’t be opposed to that.
We’re never going to see eye to eye about Traylor value and skill so I’m not going to get into that again. One other aspect is that Jamari hasn’t graduated yet and has already redshirted so forcing him out ends his college career without a degree, that’s a very negative PR hit that would be all over the major sports websites painting Self as a terrible person (and deservedly so IMO) and would have a negative impact on recruiting.
There’s two reasons I’m opposed to forcing Greene out. He’s too good of a shooter to leave alone and he was making strides in his defense before his injury. The other reason is KU doesn’t have the depth on the perimeter to afford dumping a perimeter player. If Greene is forced out, KU would be down to 5 perimeter players (Mason, Graham, Selden, Svi, and Vick) and would struggle to withstand an injury. Also throw in Svi is a projected mid 1st round pick next year on multiple sites and KU’s depth issues on the perimeter could be magnified and landing a quality 2016 becomes the top priority in 2016 recruiting over a big instead of the other way around.
Hunter is the one guy I wouldn’t be opposed to trading out, but there’s not a way to do so without looking bad unless Hunter can fast track an August graduation, but that doesn’t sound like a viable option. Also the same negative PR I mentioned about Jamari applies here in forcing out a senior who’s already redshirted and hasn’t graduated yet.
Of the 3 players you named, the 2 would be seniors aren’t going to graduate before August and therefore can’t transfer unless it’s to a D2 school without ending their careers. And KU doesn’t have the depth to logically send off a guard this offseason. I’m not opposed to making room for Chukwu in theory, but looking at the logistics of how it would have to happen combined with expectations this, that’s where I become opposed to the idea.
Actually, one option I hadn’t thought of and I don’t know if you’ve mentioned is moving a player from scholarship to walk on if the parents have the means. I don’t know the financial status of players parents, but Perry or Landen could be a viable option for this route.
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I might be wrong here but I don’t think we can just have a player pay their way to solve the problem. I thought you could only suit up so many players and if one scholarship player does take one for the team so we can add Chuckwu, then who doesn’t suit up? The obvious answer is a walk-on but man that seems like a tough pill to swallow, and not likely to be a coaches kid.
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@CaptnMo There is no total roster limit, only a scholarship limit of 13. Moving someone off scholarship doesn’t prevent them from dressing up. KU moving someone off scholarship to clear room for Chukwu would put them at 17 total players and 15 players eligible to play in 2015-16, the same number of players KU dressed last season.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 as far as parents paying, one reason that came up when Perry was checking out the draft was that his parents were struggling financially. There was a nice piece on the Ellis’s and their work at the children’s home in wichita, on kwch.
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Perry Ellis
http://www.kwch.com/news/local-news/how-the-wichita-childrens-home-shaped-perry-ellis/33321852
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Teams require puzzle pieces.
To play for rings they need all the pieces for matchups they are likely to meet in a final four full of footers.
Thus one or more to footers are necessary pieces.
Chukwu, a footer, is a must get.
Self can’t sign 5 star footers in the stack era, because of the embargo by asymmetric stacking.
No one can win a ring moving forward without a footer, because 2 and often three of the Final Four will be footer stacks, and so they will beat you unless Self can match up with at least one footer of his own to go with Self’s counter punching reliance on stretch 4s.
Chukwu has to be signed now because Self might not get another good chance at a footer for a few years. It’s ugly, but Self has to run whomever that he can best do without this season.
Without a footer, with green bigs like Diallo and Bragg, with Coleby just another 4, with BG in rehab limbo, and with weak returning bigs, KU can win another B12, but has slim chance of a ring. Period.
With Chukwu and what Self will return the following season, and the two Adidas 4-5 stars that conveyor brings, KU can play for a ring for one and maybe two seasons.
Vick only matters this season. If he can’t play this season, the Adidas conveyor can bring some one better than him next season. It is harder to embargo perimeter players, because there are so many.
Failing to sign Chukwu now means not only not having all the pieces this season, but likely for three seasons. Three seasons is an eternity in D1.
Coleby was just stop gap insurance for this season and next for Nike reaching out and touching Chukwu.
The only logical reasons for Chukwu and Vick delaying are if: a) sanctions for Cliff are brewing; or b) Fratello/Hill have a foreign footer that is newly thinking about coming to KU to play this season.
Otherwise, this is HITCHCOCK’S LIFEBOAT and one or more get life jackets and put overboard.
Guys get cut in highschool try-outs.
Guys get run in D1.
Always have.
Always will
Self has done better than most at helping place the displaced.
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I’m glad Vick re-classified and I’m excited to see how quickly he picks up on the system. This kid could push Selden to become the player we have been waiting for. Selden finally has some credible competition, just what he needed.
This Chukwu situation will work itself out. I figure he’s still visiting because he’s in the area after visiting Nebraska the past few days. If a scholarship pops up before he decides then KU may have a good chance. At the moment we shouldn’t speculate or count on him being in a KU uniform.
Greene’s not going anywhere, his GF goes to KU and there’s much fanfare on her alone that would make any College kid stick around. Greene has NBA potential and Self will continue to push him to that goal. We are not getting rid of the 1 3-point threat we have.
I have to say Self finished the recruiting season strong and shot down any fears we may have had just a month ago. Bragg & Diallo are studs. Vick could be anything & Coleby has a bunch of upside still so I’d say we did good for both this year and the future.
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In all this talk of who theoretically would Self " run out" to open a spot for Chukwu, we’ve heard Greene, Traylor and mickelson mentioned a lot … But hardly a mention of Lucas … The one guy who cant score a basket if his life depended on it… yes his defense is better and he can rebound some, but…
And i’ll repeat for the third time - if Self and staff REALLY wanted Chukwu and thought he was the key for the next 3 years, they would have kept a spot open til he visited and made Coleby wait (Coleby would have waited by the way - he has expressly said that KU was his dream destination) … didn’t happen did it ? What does that tell you ?
And lastly - of course Self does have to make tough calls on guys, some more tough than others, because his job at a blue-chip program is ultimately is to win … But his job is also to mentor and build up young men and make them better in many ways and prepare them for the future. He has more money than he knows what to do with , and he can get a job in d1 or the nba easily. He cares for his guys and has perspective. His career does not hinge on getting a footer (has anybody done their homework on Chukwu - is he that amazing? ) at the cost of casiering one of his guys.
Btw he LOVES jamari … Not going to happen there fellas
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@Bosthawk Interesting you point out Lucas.
You mention that he (Lucas) is the "one guy who can’t score at the basket if his life depended on it … "
However, the stats tell a bit of a different story regarding him being the “one guy”. Field goal percentages at the rim – Traylor (of course) 54.8%; Ellis 58.1 %; and Lucas 59.3%.
Now, you had said the “one guy” – that’s all I’m refuting. Ellis and Lucas are not good at the rim, and Traylor is really bad for a post player. Thus our issues last season. Thus the constant commentary on why our system didn’t seem to fit our personnel skills last season.
Of course, there were two guys who could actually score at the rim at respectable rates – Cliff - 68.7% and Mickelson 70.7%. By comparison, for what it’s worth, Dwight Coleby was 67.5%.
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@HighEliteMajor Thanks for the helpful stats My impression of lucas was based on perceived playing time vs total points - he just seemed that he could not score very much whe he was on the floor, and when he would get the ball in close he would miss bunnies on a frequent basis. He appeared to me to have almost zero shooting ability. Mickelson also appeared to have more offensive shot skills, but is kinda slow and got pushed around. Traylor seemed to score more total points (again i dont have hard stats to back this up) but of course he was on the floor a LOT more than Lucas and Mickelson. And I suppose too that Lucas is a more effective rebounder and defender than mickelson and traylor stat-wise.
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Chukwu is 7.
By definition he is necessary.
That he runs the floor, jumps and looks like he gets the game means he brings something KU lacks.
Coleby had to be signed too. Coleby covers not signing a footer that can play now. And he creates so many 4s filling at 5 that if Chukwu will commit, Self can flush someone, or med red BG and leave the toilet spring alone. Coleby is zero threat to Chukwu. Coleby was a no brainer.
And LaGerrie isn’t strong enough to impact, or guard much, once the B12 starts. LaGerrie is just back up insurance in an emergency.
Frankly, Self has crapped out recruiting the team’s two immediate needs: a footer and a 3 that can replace Oubre.
He signed what he could get, because he couldn’t sign what was needed.
Lots of pieces are not the same as the needed pieces.
But if he can still sign Chukwu, at least he’ll have the pieces the next year.
Diallo/Bragg with a year’s experience would complement Chukwu/Coleby/Lucas well.
There is no way around the need for a footer.
Self may not get Chukwu, but he is no dummy. He knows he needs him badly and he is hanging in to the bitter end.
And unless Diallo learns to shoot, he is a 2 year guy on skills and height, despite the hype.
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One way Chukwu could come to KU is with an academic scholarship from almost any source. He could become a red-shirt walk-on for this season and then be awarded a scholarship for '16-'17.
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so we are going to run our backup center (maybe starter to begin season) who’s already red-shirted to make way for what??? what is so special about Chukwu that we are contemplating every what if situation besides running Bill Self out of town to give him a scholly. pretty funny stuff around here
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@BeddieKU23 No i agree with you believe me - i was just speculating on why Lucas’s name was not mentioned as possible guys that could be theoretically “run out” when Traylor and Mickelson and greene were mentioned frequently. HEM helpfully pointed out that lucas’s stats are not as i perceived, and Jaybate set me straight on the fact that it’s not an either/or situation with Coleby and Chukwu- we still need a footer 5 guy regardless.
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There are just 8 reasons: the eight teams in the top ten at the end of the season with footers and good perimeter players.
And three of them ruled to the Final Four.
And MSU proved that STACKING has progressed to a point that UCONN’s ring was the end of something, not the start.
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@Bosthawk Lucas is not a good option to force out because the reason for wanting Chukwu is because KU is going to be thin in the front court in 2016-17.
@jaybate-1.0 There’s one flaw in you 7 footer theory, 2 of the last 3 national champs didn’t have a 7 footer on the roster, so it’s not a necessity.
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@Bosthawk You assume right. Yes, Lucas was the best rebounder … appx. .29 per minute. Mickelson .25 and Traylor .18 per minute. Right now, I value Lucas over the other two.
@BeddieKU23 Remember, what we’re talking about is real potential vs. pedestrian.
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It is not a flaw at all IMHO.
The two seasons you cite are irrelevant.
Things have changed.
There are tipping points in everything.
There is a tipping point for how many footers and other talent are required to overwhelm opponents with footers, just as there might be tipping points in how many 450 pound linemen it will take on how many NFL teams one day to turn all of the Super Bowl winners into teams with 450 pound lineman.
Stacking is a quantitative phenomenon occurring within a dynamic game space in which equilibrium strategy keeps altering based on the changing distribution of footers and complementary talent.
Stacking one team with only six great talents at UK did it in 2012.
But we are witnessing narrowing talent distributions that reduce the number of teams that can seriously compete to those with stacking currency, if you will, in this case footers.
Repeating the stack with Nerlen Noels didn’t get it done the next season, so the stacking was increased and focused on footer redundancy, because Nerlen Noels injury proved that complementary talent could not compensate for catastrophic injury. Embiid’s injury proved the same thing for KU.
The system learns. Its a feedback loop. And it has some facets of rational expectations theory; that is there is some inflation of expectation of what it takes to keep getting the same benefit stacking year after stacking year.
There will always be statistical anomalies under any equilibrium strategy, but you have to face the reality that eight of the top ten teams were multi-footer stacks last season and two of the Final Four teams were multi-footer stacks and one had the new Stretch Five Footer, while only one was footerless–MSU–and it got manhandled even though it had the only kind of a coach playing the only kind of style that might be able to be a multi footer stack, other than my idea of shooting 80-90 percent of one’s field goal attempts as treys, which with a 30 second shot clock will become even more feasible to do. But coaches are very slow to take risk. They are highly paid and so risk averse, and so prefer the rigged formula of skewed distribution of footers by Big Shoe-Agent conveyor systems than trying radical new offensive solutions. They know that even if they come up with a better offensive mouse trap, as Self did this past season with Bad Ball, that the refs will intervene and make sure it does not prevail. So the only rational move for coaches is to try to get in on the stacking process and the equilibrium strategy so far for stacking is no more than eight stacks. All these adidas coaches appear to be marking time trying to win conference titles, knowing they likely can’t win a ring anymore, in hopes of hanging around long enough for the powers that be to informally institute a more broadly distributed talent stacking array. Some of them get impatient and give up, like Donovan. Some of the decide its apparently time to switch sides, like Cuonzo. Some of them like Self try to augment the adidas talent with with off-shores and transfers and diamonds in the rough. Self is such a great coach he can keep eeking out conference titles that keep the fans content, while he looks secret passages and little harbors that the blockade hasn’t sealed off.
In the years you cite to try to make your case, you fail to point out that there were not 8 multi-footer stacks in those years, so those years are relevant only if you argue that the era of multi footer stacks of eight are the future.
What appears to be happening is that the system is still oscillating through equilibrium strategies looking for the optimal way to dominate the Final Four AND ensure sufficient talent at the right number of teams to create the statistically probable level of stack dominance to achieve optimum gambling revenues and optimum branding of players at stack programs, which designed Final Fours will enable.
We may see the model reequilibrate at ten stacks of 3 footer per stack, or we may see the model reequilibrate at 12 stacks at two footers per stack, or even three stacks of four footers and an OAD point guard.
The system is a feed back loop that is reconciling the dynamics of shoe branding, gambling, and viewing audience; that is what is my hypothesis of what is going on and your argument is not refuting it. It is just selectively slicing time series data and leaving out shifting equilibrium distributions of talent and and strategy of the feed back loop with the incentive systems that are in place.
Of course, all of the above is hypothesis and speculation.
Rock Chalk!!!
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So what does this have to do with Vick?
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Nothing really. I am just addressing the portion of the thread relating to Chukwu. Vick doesn’t really matter much except for this season. Self failed to get an Oubre replacement and BG got a tough surgery, so Self needs a warm body and LB helped us out it appears. But the adidas conveyor will likely bring us someone better than Vick by next year, unless the adidas conveyor is truly broken.
You see there are always exceptions to rules.
Wiggins was an exception to the rule that long time Nike leans generally are not turned to adidas. And Jaylen Brown is an exception to the rule that adidas leans are not generally turned to Nike.
But the tendency weighs in over time. Next season, the adidas conveyor is likely to spit out a perimeter player better than Vick at 130 whatever that Vick is ranked. Vick could easily be a transfer next season, because of an OAD, and other returning players, or perhaps not if he improves mightily in weight, strength, and skill this coming season.
My argument here is that Vick and Chuckwu are basically independent of each other.
Chuckwu is basically independent of everyone on the team returning and coming in new.
He is the only footer we believe is available to us that could play not this season but next.
We have no reason to believe that KU is going to switch to Nike and so become a stack school. And we have no reason to think that adidas has a enough footers available for next year for Self to get one. If adidas has such a player lined up for Self, well that’s one and he really needs two or more, unless one is a Stretch 5 a la Kaminsky. But the point is that Self will try to sign Chuckwu even if adidas has a footer bun in the oven for him.
Footers are that necessary to winning 80 percent of your games.
Because teams have to have footers in the stack era, and because Chuckwu is available now, he has to be taken, if he wants to play for KU.
Self has fallen from stratospheric winning levels of 82% to human levels of 7os percent the last two years.
He can’t just go back to the type of talent he used to get his first eight years, because there weren’t footer stacks in those days.
Now he has to get himself some footers every year if he’s going to get back up to the sweet spot of 82 percent.
Or he’s got to drastically soften the schedule and accept never getting to the Final Four.
The man plays to win.
He’s going to find a way to get his footers.
It may take him a couple of years to find the crack in the door, but if its there, he will find it.
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@jaybate-1.0 Vick was ranked at 33 and a 5 star on rivals and 51 on espn’s top 100 this morning.
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@jaybate-1.0 Not buying the 7 footer theory because there simply isn’t the volume of 7 footers to do this.
Also, KU already has Oubre’s replacement on the roster, he was signed last year when Self dumped AW3. Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk is Kelly Oubre’s replacement.
Also, LaGerald Vick did get bumped up to #33 before he signed with KU which is a similar jump to what Svi made in the rankings last year.
As I debated with HEM yesterday, I personally think it’s stupid to boot someone off of this team that is on the very short list of title contenders this year to prepare for 2016-17 where KU is not guaranteed to be on the short list of title contenders even with Chukwu.
As much as people are talking about building for 2016-17, you’d think KU wasn’t in any kind of position to make the NCAA tournament this year, let alone contend for a national title.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think you are stretching the discussion just a bit to fit your narrative. Most everyone thinks KU is a national title contender this season. No doubt. I think that is the consensus, not the exception. However, my position is that if we lost Traylor or Mickelson, it wouldn’t matter one bit. And actually, I think if we lost Traylor we would be better. Addition by subtraction, the Naadir Tharpe way (but for other reasons). In principle, I agree that we should not ditch someone that, if we lost them, it would make us worse for 2015-16.
Greene is an interesting discussion on that line of thought. I think Greene could be tremendous. But as the 5th perimeter guy, and the marginalizing of his one main skill … hitting the step in three pointer … I tend to think we could survive. Because of Vick, I’d part with Greene if it meant Chukwu. That might not be the wise decision, though, I admit.
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I guess this is not about Vick??
Just throwing my two cents out there. After watching the nightmare unfold last year. Two things came to my mind.
One is HCBS doesn’t change his system to the talent he puts on the floor. He expects those players to run his system without question.
Two when HCBS doesn’t have the players to run his system. KU becomes very beatable.
So what do we do? Do we get rid of HCBS? No of course not. However if we are going to keep him then he should recruit to his system, and us fans should let him. I would hate to see any current KU player let go for any reason, but HCBS system requires big men, and Chukwu is a big man.
I say sadly let the chips fall where they may, but sign Chukwu. Scholarships are giving on a yearly basis. Just because you dream of going to the moon, becoming the president of the Untied States or playing for the Kansas Jayhawks doesn’t mean it’s going to happen. Especially in this day in age of the shoe wars, media contracts, and conference realignment.
The old days are gone. There is no more time allowed for rebuilding. To survive one must reload. Just look at how far UCLA has fallen. They’re not even the top dog of the West Coast anymore, and they were once a blue blood. The game has changed my friends.
If we keep HCBS then we get big men anyway we can. Even if it means clearing a spot on the roster.
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@HighEliteMajor We can go back and forth all day long about whether or not Traylor, Greene, and Mickelson make KU better, but that’s not a discussion that will ever bear any fruit because we simply have different opinions on Greene and Traylor’s value to Kansas basketball.
In regards to Brannen Greene, let’s say he’s on the court with Mason, Graham, Bragg, and Diallo and KU is in their high-low set. Diallo gets the ball and is double teamed by his man and a guard, KU at that point has three 40%+ 3 point shooters on the floor and one of them is wide open. The ability to discourage double teams in the post because of the 3 point ability of the guards is not something that cannot be overlooked when it comes to making the high-low more effective.
Let me ask you a question about this situation. We both know that Traylor and Mickelson haven’t graduated yet so that rules them out as graduate transfers. Neither player has the disciplinary history that Tharpe did to justify removal, so how does Bill Self remove a would be redshirt senior that hasn’t graduated yet and doesn’t have a history of disciplinary issues without damaging his ability to recruit 4 year players?
Aside from the on court issues, the off court PR damage from kicking a would be redshirt senior off the team for a project player, Chukwu may have a high ceiling but he is a project at this point, I would lose a significant amount of respect for Bill Self for pulling a move like that on a 22-23 year old kid who hasn’t graduated yet.
At this point, the only viable way to land Chukwu would for someone on scholarship to move to walk on status. There’s just not another option that doesn’t hurt KU either on the court or off the court.
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@DoubleDD Since 2001 Bill Self has had 14 players taller than 6’9" on his teams at Illinois and KU. Of those only Embiid and Withey were footers. At Illinois only 2 of them contributed, Cook and Augustine. At KU he has had Kaun, Giles, Niang, Aldrich, Withey, Markief Morris, Lucas, Embiid, and Mickelson. Of those Kaun, Aldrich, Withey, Morris, and Embiid. were important contributors. That means that since 2001 Self has had 7 contributing players over 6’9" with only 2 footers.
There were obviously other front court players who could score down low but they were 6’9" or less. Self needs players that can score down low; however, it is not clear that he needs footers. Would it be nice to have bigger studs. Of course. Is it absolutely necessary? NO. Of course we have won only one NC during that time. On the other hand, when we did cut down the nets the only player on the list, Kaun, came off of the bench.
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Well seems to be a strong opinion by many on this thread that chukwu is essential, and that we need to make room for him somehow. Self should get traylor, mickelson and lucas in a room ( hell, get all the players in the room just so they are PERFECTLY clear on what is the bottom line at KU apparently) and give them a speech like this -
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Withey was measured at the pre-draft combine at 6’ 10- 3/4" so technically he is not a footer.
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Not selling!
In the 8 stack program era era that started this past season, KU isn’t a ring contender without a footer and without an equivalent replacement for Oubre, and with 6-9 no offense Diallo and 6-10 no offense Lucas manning the post. If opponents teed off on Perry last season, he may not make it through the front nine this year.
The logic goes like this: how can they be net better when they have lost more than they gained? They lost two OADs and recruited one. They lost BG–a junior to rehab-- for part of a season and gained Vick, a reclassifying frosh no higher ranked than BG was. They have no one that can guard a footer, nor a two footer rotation. They have no one that can guard a draft choice three.
KU this season is a B12 contenduh, not a ring contenduh?
They lost more than they gained unless Svi does a supernova.
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Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
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Has Vick actually improved his game that much?
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Maybe, that’s a tough question to ask. I think more than anything Vick didn’t get the exposure before this spring on the AAU scene and fell through the cracks as they say. Then when he finally played some tournaments he was much better than anyone had realized, dominant to a point offensively. Some of it probably is due to marked improvement in his game which bodes well for us because he could have the potential to start as a Soph if the cards play out for him.
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@jaybate-1.0 Greene will be available for the entire season, at least in SelfSpeak.
Mason may improve.
Graham is likely to improve: college PGs generally improve the most between freshman and sophomore seasons.
Svi is likely to improve.
Overall, we could be about as good on the perimeter (1 through 3).
Yes, the 5 is a problem.
How can this lineup be an inside/out team?
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You make a fine point, but if you against one aspect then you are for the other. Meaning you think HCBS should stay loaded at the guard positions. As your theory is that bigs aren’t really the key to HCBS success.
All I can say is you must of not watched the same KU team that I watched last year? HCBS isn’t not going to change is system to accommodate a guard heavy team. He’s going to play his high low game period. What was on the floor last year left a very sic feeling in my stomach. There is not a KU fan in here that can look me in the eyes and say yea I thought last years team really had a shot at the final 4, let alone a championship.
They were terrible in the paint, and HCBS refused to change his game plan. HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft. After this year Ellis, Tralyor, Mickelson are gone, and there is very good chance that Diallo and Bragg are gone too. That leaves Lucas and Cobley Cheese. The need for Chuckwu goes way beyond the footer debate. If KU were to get Chuckwu they would at the very least have three bigs that know the system and would take off some of the pressure to land two bigs in the 2016 class of recruits.
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I don’t think Bragg will get the PT to warrant leaving after 1 year. He knows after this year the paint is his. He’s a potential lotto pick if he sticks around and he seems like a kid who wants to develop in the system.
At some point we are going to want to get young big men in the system. Bolden would be the ideal fit. We will need at least 1 big next year if Diallo does go pro. Too early to tell what will happen
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I would love to believe you and would love to agree with you. However the NBA draft isn’t about what have you accomplished. It’s about potential and whether they are willing to take a chance on you. Bragg very well could be here for a few years, but if he comes out and shows flashes of what he can become. He’s gone. Money talks in this day in age.
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your right in many ways, I just feel with him playing behind Ellis its going to be hard for him to get enough PT to leave. He’s not really on any NBA radar at the moment like Diallo already is. He may fly under the radar enough.
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@jaybate-1.0 Exposure is key to moving up the ranks. There is generally one guy for each rankings system out there and if you haven’t played in front of that guy much then he can not accurately rank you. That’s also why he has moved up on some boards but not others.
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Paul Biancardi @PaulBiancardi · 21h21 hours ago
Basketball Recruiting - LeGerald Vick - Now in the 100 for 2015 with an Evaluation.Biancardi has Vick at 51 on his board for ESPN. More exposure over the summer might have put him even higher?
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@jaybate-1.0 I think you’re discounting Diallo’s offensive game. Withey couldn’t make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid. Diallo is extremely quick, much quicker than anyone we’ve had since maybe TROB in the post, and I think his drives to the basket will result in lots of scoring opportunities.And, he will dunk, dunk, dunk. He has a relentless motor that makes him, imo, the best big man in the 2015 class. His defense will be light years ahead of what we endured last year.
Replacing Oubre at the 3 could be a challenge, but we do have a plethora of choices available. I’m sure we’ll see in-season tryouts. like we did at the 5 last year.
I’m very excited about this team. It’s been since 2012 since we’ve went into a season with so much experience, which was the last time we made the FF.
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@KUSTEVE said:
Withey couldn’t make a jump shot to save his life, but he sure could dunk. Same with Embiid.
Withey made 100% of his 3s at KU
Seriously, Embiid could always shoot some.
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@jaybate-1.0 I do believe KU is going to be better than last year and there is reason why Las Vegas has KU as the 4th/5th favorite to win the title this year.
Is it a guarantee that Svi will be as good as Oubre next season? No, it’s not, but there’s a reason why he was considered KU’s best NBA prospect last year despite the amount of bench time he saw. Don’t forget that Svi was just 17 last year and doesn’t turn 18 until next week (June 10). He has the skill, his body is continuing to mature, he has experience now and it’s just a matter of time until he shows why he’s a projected mid 1st round pick in the 2016 draft. You may say it’s a net negative, but don’t forget that Self backed off the elite wings in 2015 AFTER Svi and Brannen announced they would be back.
Speaking of Brannen, the time table for his return was approximately 5 months which at the time of his surgery puts Labor Day as the approximate target date for his return. That’s 2 months before the season starts so barring some kind of major set back, BG will be ready to go for the season.
The front court is where KU will see the most improvement. Diallo and Bragg should be much better on the court overall than Cliff was last year. Diallo isn’t going to be asked to shoot anything outside of 5’ other than FT’s and has a much higher motor than Cliff did. Diallo is also considered the best rim protector in the class which is what KU was missing last season.
You bring up Diallo’s ability to guard 7 footers. Two things about that, Diallo has a 7-2 wingspan and how teams with 7 footers does KU play in 2015-16? I can think of two and of those players may not be eligible to play. UC Irvine has that 7-5 kid, but it’s still UCI and KU should win that one. Kentucky has Skal Labissiere, but he still hasn’t been cleared to play by the NCAA yet and there’s a chance he won’t get cleared at all. Beyond those two players, I don’t know of a competent 7 footer that KU faces so worrying about something KU has to deal with twice on the known part of the schedule isn’t a big deal to me.
This is the best overall team KU has had since 2010-11. There is depth and experience on perimeter, there is experience on the wing, there is depth and experience in the front court. When was the last time KU had 5-6 upper classmen in their projected rotation? Mason, Selden, Ellis, Greene, Lucas and probably Traylor. Add in Graham and Svi who did play quite a bit last year and we’re talking 8 of the 9 rotation spots filled by players with experience.
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@DoubleDD Players who can score down low are key to Self’s offense. Players who want to score down low are the key to Self’s offense. My point is that they have not historically been taller than 6’9". In fact, @sfbahawk indicated that at the pre-draft combine Withey measured 6’10-3/4". That’s even better. The numbers I used were KU numbers and as has been the topic of more than one thread those numbers are usually inflated.
Who said anything about a guard heavy team? Try pinning that on someone else. It wasn’t me.
The argument of some is that it is critical to get Chukwu because he is a footer. Past history does not support that claim. You obviously aren’t too excited about Coleby. I don’t know whether he will pan out or not. Self must think so or he wouldn’t have signed him. What I do know is that he meets Self’s profile of big men. If you look at the builds of his bigs, Coleby is closer to that than is Chukwu. It doesn’t appear that Coleby will have to spend as much time with Hudy as would others. JoJo was very impressive as a freshman. He was a very good learner and his footwork was amazing. One of his biggest problems was his lack of strength. He could be moved out easier than some.
I would love to have Chukwu on the team but his presence is not critical. I cannot imagine that Self will lose any sleep in the next couple of years if he goes elsewhere.
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@sfbahawk I would tend to agree with you on seven footers. They’re nice to have, but not a necessity. I think that is what @DoubleDD said – “HCBS needs bigs whether 6’9 or 7ft.”
But the one thing that is clear, a tall, long kid can be a game changer. That why I want Chukwu. When given a choice, I’d rather have a Chukwu type than a Coleby type.
Ideally, really, we’d have both. Imagine 7’2" Chukwu and 6’9" bruiser Coleby together in the post. Sounds good?
Maybe. They need to be skilled. They need to be able to score on the block.
Personally, my opinion has been that we need back to the basket scoring. But I don’t care if it’s Wayne Simien height or Joel Embiid height. Again, I’d rather have good, skilled, taller players. But we have won without it.
The reason I’m not excited about Coleby is that Coleby was a role player at Ole Miss. He was unranked. He hasn’t been spectacular. I think there is an argument that he is just insurance – that he may not be a real answer in the rotation. But sure, he could be more. Not being excited about doesn’t mean, at least for me, that I don’t like the acquisition. I’d just rather have Chukwu.
With Chukwu, we have a more highly though of player out of high school. Taller and longer, and certainly rim protector stuff. A guy that after a year here may project more to a Withey type, the kind of guy we all think (I’m guessing you too) fits well in Self’s system.
I’m fine with the Coleby acquisition. But I want more. I now want both. I want Chukwu. Is it “critical”? Probably not.
Who was the best post player in Self’s tenure at Kansas? Probably TRob’s 2011-12 season. But he was paired with Withey. Did Withey make him better? I’m pretty confident that he did.
I want both.
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So to distill your reassurances that this is one of the best rosters, since 2010-11, and a team that can challenge for a ring–here goes:
Svi will be good but probably not as good as Oubre. Well, ummm, we didn’t challenge for a ring even with Oubre. How exactly are we going to challenge with someone not quite as good?
Well, adding Diallo and Bragg makes us way better, right?
But Diallo has no back to basket offense, which was the problem with our bigs last season.
And Bragg appears so slender he will not be able to stay on a spot, nor knock an offender off his.
Of course, Diallo has a 7-2 wing span, same as Oubre had, and is only an inch or two taller and Oubre, and I don’t recall Kelly’s wing span compelling Self to use Kelly as a post defender against footers. Not sure this makes me sleep better.
You’re not worried about facing footers without guys that can defend footers, because KU won’t see many footers during the regular season…though they will play in a post season tournament in which last season 8 of the top ten teams in the country that got into the tournament had 1 to 4 footers and KU will inevitably face and likely not be able to matchup with the footer . Again, you are not making me feel like swaggering about my birds here.
You say we have depth and experience on the perimeter and appear unconcerned about the following things impairing that depth and experience:
a.) Selden’s inability to dribble drive, his enduring psychological scars from knee surgery, reduced hop and pop from knee surgery, sharply limited ability to elevate except on a full speed run, extremely uneven focus, and a tendency to disappear for several games at a time;
b.) BG is coming off a hip surgery known for long rehabs and was not good enough last season to take 20 mpg away from Oubre, when Oubre was wearing a gauze gob on his injured knee, and Selden was disappearing 2-3 games at a time.
Vick’s contribution to our depth seems questionable, because he is so thin he likely will not be able to stay on a spot, or keep from being shoved out of his cuts on offense; nor will he likely be able to play physical defense his first season.
You figure Coleby meets a “profile” Self has for big men, which apparently includes Jamari Traylor, Hunter Mickelson, and Landon Lucas; this is not making me more confident.
That pretty much covers the list of the confidence enhancers, right?
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To everyone denying Self needs footers…
Things changed last year.
The game went from general talent stacks, to footer stacks.
No teams without footers seriously challenged for the ring last season.
MSU backed in, then got exposed in the FF.
Footer stacks, or “near” footer stacks, if one wants to pick nits, makes the eight or so teams with footer stacks very dominant.
Stacking has changed everything about footers except the way we think about them.
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It seems something has changed.
KU’s recruits used to go do in rank after signing.
Vick has risen.
Is this a new trend?
Or just an anomaly?
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Might “near footer” account for slight amounts under and over 7 feet?
Where do you draw the line? 6-10?, 6-11? how about a very athletic 6-9 that can out jump and out rebound a true 7 footer? You seem to be too fixated on the height and not enough on the talent. Let’s remember that Chuckwu was a role player at Providence, not an elite major program but Providence, where he was #9 in the team in minutes per game…the textbook definition of role player. He might have potential, but at this time and based on his first season he is a project that might or might not pan out. Let’s not anoint Chuckwu as the next Embiid or the savior of the Hi-Lo.
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I always draw the line at 6-11.
I believe doing so is established by international weights and measures standards, isn’t it?
Seriously, you have to draw the line at 6-11, or we are not talking near footers.
I have never had trouble guarding a guy because he had an inch on me.
But anyone that has two inches, or more, on me always got harder to guard late in the game when I could jump less.
So: yeah, 6-11, or taller is the “near footer” guideline.
