so no one starting a Perry Ellis Thread? guess I will
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@Bosthawk Not sure that I qualify as a board heavy but I will weigh in.
I personally can’t imagine that he leaves. I have posted this before but…
He is from Kansas.
Always wanted to play for Kansas.
Hasn’t had a good post season run (actually has been part of the worst post season streak in Bill Self history).
He will be one of the top 10 players in D1 next year if he returns.
He may actually go undrafted as he is a classic “tweaner”.
He has a chance to be an All American Senior next year if he stays and to me has little to lose by staying. Oubre has to leave. Cliff has to leave. Perry certainly does not need to leave and if he stays another year and averages 15 and 6 how does this negatively impact his stock? If he comes back and averages 18 and 10 and leads KU to a Final 4 that can only help.
Also, I can’t handle the idea of him leaving. It makes me want to vomit thinking of our post play next year without him.
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IMO, he could use another year. I would think he could shine next year and improve his chances for a higher pick.
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Agree w/everyone here. My take is as a stretch 4, that is also 6’8 like Marcus…try to dominate like Marcus did his Jr season. We all saw McM looked like an NBAer, & he went lotto. I’d LOVE for Ellis to avg 18/8. To be honest, Ellis is one of the most versatile 6’8 guys Self has ever had. Love for him to go lotto. His attributes are mobility and range.
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@joeloveshawks I agree. Quite frankly, if a late second round pick is there this year, it will likely be there next year.
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Make a list of the board heavies so we know who can comment and who can’t!!!
@jaybate-1.0 Seriously, I’m still on you about your shoe theories. So what you’re saying is:
Crappy team GM: "I'd like to draft Wiggins." Crappy team pres: "You can't draft him, he's wearing the wrong shoes." Crappy team GM: "OK, we'll find a lesser player who is wearing the right shoes." Crappy team Pres: "That's what you should do because then we'll be crappy again and maybe the best player next year will be wearing the right shoes and we can draft him."Maybe I’m naive to the way things works, or maybe you are a conspiracy theorist by nature. Maybe our guys aren’t quite good enough to get significant PT in the league.
Now if you want to talk conspiracy theories, I’m willing to believe that there is a Duke bias out there and even a bias out there to see certain teams win. In other words after Monday night, there’s got to be a system that is influencing these results. If I was a neutral fan Monday I would have turned that game off before it ended. I did two years ago when Michigan was mauled by Louisville with referee assistance. I didn’t even watch last years game, nor did I watch Butler-Uconn, and most of Butler-Duke. I’m tired of seeing these results that seemingly favor teams I and most of us dislike.
Sorry @Bosthawk, I know this was a Perry thread. I hope he returns obviously. The writers are giving us a great chance to do well next year if he returns, I saw one preseason poll that had us 4th, maybe a tad high, but maybe not. I don’t know if Perry plays much at all in the NBA.
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If Perry is not really quick enough to play an NBA 3 position (and I suppose he is not), then I don’t envision his finding much success in the League. But he is one heck of a fine college player who has provided lotsa thrills for the Jayhawk Nation. I really, really hope he returns for his senior season…and that his knee holds up well. He is one of those hapless tweeners whom Self has leaned upon heavily, and Perry has responded dependably. From the getgo his demeanor has made him one of my favorite all-time Jayhawks. Whatever he decides to do next year I wish him the very best. Bill Self made a very sound investment, bringing such a fine kid into his program.
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@MoonwalkMafia said:
@joeloveshawks I agree. Quite frankly, if a late second round pick is there this year, it will likely be there next year.
Exactly. But I guess that’s why Perry’s also weighing his options. If he has a shot at the first round, maybe he should go. Not sure his stock will drop any by returning his senior year. The NBA scouts know what they’re gonna get. A role player - at best.
I’ll support any player leaving who’s guaranteed millions with a guaranteed NBA contract. However, with only a year remaining to obtain his degree (I’m assuming), why not provide yourself with a permanent insurance policy and just go ahead and get your degree? Perry will have his shot in the NBA. And, if that doesn’t work out, he’ll be able to make good money in Europe. That will always be there.
Plus, selfishly, KU is not going to be very good next year if Perry leaves.
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I read somewhere that Perry’s family was experiencing financial difficulties this past year. Is it possibly? I don’t believe everything I read, either. I believe his education is extremely important, but he has to be very close to finishing. I think he’s just testing the waters, like evidently a couple other unnamed players on KU’s team. I’m also wondering about his knee, it would have to be completely healed to do workouts for teams. I also think this world tournament would be an exciting way for Perry to start his last and I think great year.
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@VailHawk said:
I always assumed the NBA drafts and plays guys on their ability?
Not ability, but potential! They gamble it will translate to ability.
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“He may actually go undrafted as he is a classic “tweaner”.”
Right… but if Perry and Self play smart next year, he has the ability to establish himself as a viable 3 in the league.
Typical 3s play with great physicality. Perry doesn’t have a good reputation for physicality… yet. But we saw what he could do at times this year, when he was put under the gun. Perry has the ability to play to a certain physicality. He’ll never be a bruiser… but he is very capable to play gifted physical ball. He just needs another year of pushing his aggressiveness to another level, and finishing more of those aggressive moves. He should be making a strategy with Self to play at the 3, where he belongs.
I say that, but if we don’t recruit more bigs, Self will be “Self-ish” and will use Perry all year at the 4 again. If that be the case, Perry could enter the draft now if he thinks this will happen. Perry may be waiting to see who Kansas recruits.
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@jaybate-1.0 Guess Steph Curry won’t win the NBA MVP this year because he wears Under Armor shoes.
Russel Westbrook or James Harden, maybe even Lebron James will win it, because they wear Nike’s. Or should I say they are tho only ones who can win it because they wear Nike’s?
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@wissoxfan83 said:
Make a list of the board heavies so we know who can comment and who can’t!!!
good point - I guess I feel all of you are board heavies because I learn so much from all of the regular posters here… definitely including you (plus haven’t noticed any trolls here either… but that another topic)
it is raining and cold here in Mass, basketball season is over, I am down in general - the cliff debacle didn’t help, and was hoping for some informed opinions about Perry because him announcing he’s leaving would send me into further despair. I am aware fully of what his strengths and limitations are, but he is one of ours, and I was counting on him being a 4-year guy.
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@Bosthawk Will you be going to the Frozen Four this weekend at the Garden? University of Nebraska Omaha is making its first appearance in the FF, their goalie is pretty solid, they could win it all because of him.
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@JRyman that may be a fun activity - thanks for the tip
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For what it’s worth, after a quick Google images search, it appears these players wear this brand of shoes in the NBA:
Morii- Nike.
Cole- Adidas
Pierce- Nike BMac- Adidas
Wigs- Adidas
Chalmers- Adidas
Arthur- Nike
Hinrich- Nike
Collison- Nike
Gooden- Nike.
TRob- Nike
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If you remember EJ and Releford both were on the draft boards their junior years. They both would have made NBA money for a short period (maybe even a long period) of time but both ended up going un drafted and That is exactly what Ellis is facing right now. If he under preforms next year he will go undrafted. I would be viewing all options too.
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Tim Duncan wears Adidas, so does Derek Rose, Ricky Rubio, Joakim Noah, Austin Rivers, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Harrison Barnes to just name a few.
Along with Curry wearing Under Armor you also have Kemba Walker, Raymond Felton, Corey Brewer and Brandon Jennings.
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It is not an either or situation. It is a mostly situation.
Think about a Harvard/Yale/Princeton graduate and a KU graduate applying for a job with an investment banking house on Wall Street.
Wall Street investment banking houses, investment managjers, or whatever they are calling themselves these days, is ultimately about making 2% on the largest deals that can possibly be put together. Whether the deals make the every day world better or worse is immaterial. Deals are done to make 2%. If they enable implementation of a global communications infrastructure, or a network of privatized concentrations camps where persons are tortured 24/7 to develop mind control technologies and then incinerated to cover the liability to the firm for crimes against humanity, alas, might make little difference based on the historical actions of investment banks, banks and so on in war time activities. For every ten investment bankers that will do the former deal, one will do the latter, because 2% of a big enough number means the deal gets done. There ought to be a law against it, but the fact is the private oligarchs that own controlling interests in the most dominant investment banking houses, or else animate those investment banking houses with preferential information, investment capital, and public and private access to deals, of course also invest sufficiently in elected and appointed government officials so as to see to that such laws are not passed. Capice?
But I digress. Let’s carry on with the investment banking profession as an analogue for professional basketball players, before talking more specifically about professional basketball players.
Investment banks apparently seek three things in a hire and the rank importance varies with the candidate and the firm’s needs at any given time.
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A fast, educated, socially adept brain literate in the latest trading technologies and with at least a thimble of insight about what is going on in the economy from their college education (note: these sorts of minds are always in oversupply for the number of jobs available).
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Existing access to new business, which is NEVER in oversupply, because demand for taking 2% of high buck IPOs is effectively inelastic.
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A workaholic streak.
Most KU graduates in the top 5% are equivalent on number 1.
Most KU graduates in the top 5% are deficient on the second count, and so are shunted to regional investment banking firms to start, where they can build up the business access needed by smiling, dialing and defiling, to move to the big firms, or help their regional firms go global.
Workaholics come from all walks of life, but kids out of the upper classes have FU money, and the kids from KU without the FU money tend not to have the new business access built in, so the firms tend to hire the Ivy leaguers, but every once in awhile, they take a risk on the KU grad, if he, or his family, bring something new to the table.
So: some of both get hired, but mostly its the Ivy leaguers, and after the trial period, the kid that learns fastest and brings the most new business, regardless of his pedigree, gets kept and the other gets flushed, unless he is a relative of someone in the firm or someone important about to join the administration in Washington, DC. Its a numbers game. All professions are numbers games despite their talk about marketing expertise. They are a numbers game marketing access to making things rain, with expertise being minimum ante to play.
The new hire that gets flushed once again tends to depend on his professional network to get access to being rehired. When he relies on this access, his independence is then neutered for the rest of his career. He knows he is not valuable in and of himself. He is only valuable in how he can be used by those in his professional network. This most accept, because they know how to do nothing else at this point, other than wait for an inheritance, which can be an iffy thing in a highly competitive upper class family of 3 to 5 seeking to gain through inheritance the standard of living and social status for themselves and their children that their parents achieved. Thus, these professional networks are the foundations of employment regimes in most employment sectors I have ever been exposed to. Some in them are robust professionals wielding their networking resources. Others are neutered professionals letting themselves be exploited for the greater good of those above them. This regime is in part why dominatrices can make such a good living on Wall Street. But I digress again.
The Ivy leaguer has the more extensive network, so he tends to get rehired more often.
Overall there is a bias toward the Ivy league network in the investment banking sector, even though the sector prides itself on the bottom line–doing big deals, often, for 2% off the top.
It does not matter that a few at the top are ruthless geniuses from anywhere, nor does it matter that a few from the bottom find marginal niches and hang on in clever ways.
The bulk of investment bankers in the processes of making their nest eggs are quite fungible in IQ and workaholism and minimal ethics department and are mainly distinguishable as dominants and eunuchs, rain makers and domestiques. They all dress quite similarly, but there are little tell tale signs of who is who.
The bulk of the investment banking culture hews toward this bias of its traditional professional network with occasional sharp infusions/integrations of new networks, when an Investment banking house commences operations in a new country, or business sector, or what have you.
Now, with this analog of the investment banking profession in hand, let us consider your assumption that the best players play in the NBA.
Professional basketball is a “profession.” It’s members are produced by “schools.” The schools are segmented by “shoe brands.” According to my hypothesis, these produce “professional networks” that are reinforcing to supply NBA teams that are also segmented at least partially by shoe brands.
Now keep in mind here that I am hypothesizing, and not asserting how things actually are. I don’t know how they actually are. I am a fan. I have never worked for an NBA franchise in any capacity. I am just trying to outline what appears to me would be a probable logical professional network dynamic operating to some degree or another in the NBA. The NBA is very unusual in many ways and so not highly comparable to other professions in certain ways. It has a formal draft that investment banking lacks. You might say investment banking has an informal auction of slots to the applicant promising to give the biggest most profitable part of himself to the investment banking “league.” Investment banking is very collusive and highly concentrated in ownership at the top of the business sector of investment banking–the NBA, if you will of investment banking. And so on. We can learn some things from the analogy and not others. Capice?
At any given time, there are sharply more NBA bodies with NBA skills than there are NBA job slots. There are a few elite NBA players, what are commonly called franchise players. Such players may come from any school, any shoe brand, any planet, or any universe. They may come from an elite basketball program or any old major or mid major. But the rest of the NBA job slots are staffed by highly fungible athletes, whose main differentiating characteristics are their varying salary loads to the teams and their professional networks. and their appeal to their franchise players. Contrary to popular belief, the NBA is a people business. Being able to play at competitive standard for the role available and possessing an NBA body is ante. Just ask Nick Collison. What decides who is on a roster, and who is not for non franchise player roles relates to which fungible player meets the franchise player’s agenda. Each franchise player is not only a human being with subjective personal preferences, but a “professional” in a professional network with professional network preferences. He looks at fungible teammate through both lenses and filters whom he prefers accordingly. Same with management, but they pay much more attention to budgetary stuff, and to keeping round elbows regarding professional networks. Management has to think about not just this player, but the steady stream of players they will need. They need to think about keeping a good working relationship with the professional network that meets their needs most.
If the only way to adequately fill a non-franchise player slot on an NBA team dominated by Shoe Brand A were to be to hire a player from Shoe Brand B, then the player from Shoe Brand B would be hired. But he might well be the first to be traded/released and replaced to make room for a Shoe Brand A player subsequently. This is what I meant by this not being an either or situation, but rather a mostly situation.
Though I have no way of knowing this, it is also reasonable to hypothesize about the NBA that there are certain Nike dominated franchises, certain adidas dominated franchises, and certain franchises that have found a niche catering intentionally to a mix of both. By dominated, I do not mean that Nike runs the franchise. The owners run the franchise. I mean that the roster tends to be dominated by Nike players, and so the Nike player professional network’s needs are part of the reconciliations going on in choices among players to be added and subtracted in pursuit of the best team the owner can put on the floor given his pocketbook.
Hypothetically speaking, Nike would likely favor the Nike dominated franchises, would it not?
Likewise, adidas would favor the adidas dominated franchises.
And Nike and adidas would look on the combo franchises as useful in managing the occasional excesses (slop factor) and shortfalls that occur in all demand and supply situations in the short term.
This sort of regime would essentially raise the entry costs of a competitor to Nike and adidas trying to enter the game and by default, give them a bit of a say in who they are willing to lower the entry costs for and who they are not.
For hypothetical example, the combo franchises might even absorb an occasional third shoe brand, say, one like Under Armour, should regime dynamics make adding a third oligopolist make sense, in order to discourage some monster outside player from trying to come in and throw its weight around in an effort at regime change from outside. It is called using a third minor member of the oligopoly to take up oxygen at the margin.
Now I could go on a great length about this, but I think this outlines that the NBA is not solely about the best player players. That is a lot of it. But their are things like professional networks, not just players unions, underlying who is in the opportunity set to even begin to be considered as playing the best.
At least that’s my hypothesis.
Rock Chalk!
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Nothing about winning awards is ever simple, nor are awarding mechanisms structured exactly the same as mechanisms for staffing rosters, etc. How Oscars are awarded are not the same mechanism as how and which movies get made.
So, no, it would be naive to say that Curry won’t win the award, because of the shoe brand he is affiliated with. I can imagine scenarios in which it might be a factor, however.
But I would have to study the shoe brand regime a great deal more than I have the time, recourses or desire to do, and then I would have to study the award mechanisms and their interplay with shoe brands before I would wish to hazard a forecast.
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@JRyman said:
Tim Duncan wears Adidas, so does Derek Rose, Ricky Rubio, Joakim Noah, Austin Rivers, Serge Ibaka, Dwight Howard, Harrison Barnes to just name a few.
Along with Curry wearing Under Armor you also have Kemba Walker, Raymond Felton, Corey Brewer and Brandon Jennings.
These kinds of lists of players by brand that are not disaggregated for time of signing with the shoe brand, so as to account for the apparently changing dynamics of shoe brand relationships the last few years, versus those of prior times, seem not to tell us very much about where things are at right now, but they are nonetheless interesting and useful data points for disaggregation and analysis, so thanks for listing them.
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I have to disagree with you assessment of the influence of shoe companies in the NBA. NBA teams are NOT affiliated with any specific brand and the uniforms for the entire League are supplied by just one vendor, want to venture a guess who this firm is? ADIDAS. By the way, the profit is is so low that Adidas indicated it will not bid after the contract is over; the market for NBA branded apparel is small compared to college branded apparel.
With unis out of the way, the only thing left to endorse is shoes and players do that individually. Do you really think Wiggins was traded to the Wolves because he endorses Adidas? No. He was traded there because he plays essentially the same position as LeBron and what the Cavaliers really needed was a big time "big’ and Love was the best available…does not look like it is working well for them by the way; Love’s numbers are way down, the chemistry is not there and there have been PDDs, Public Displays of Disaffection, such as Love stating in an interview that Curry and not teammate LeBron should be the MVP and Lebron has publicly called on Love to "be’ a part of the team; obviously the honeymoon is over and it would not surprise me at all to see Love move to a different team after the season is over…of course a Championship could change things.
As far as Perry and as I posted before, I am not too worried about this. Most players, even those with remote NBA potential routinely file that request for information and most end up staying in school. If he is projected as a 1st round next year, then he is eligible for the NCAA sponsored insurance program and that might be the real reason for the request. I understand his family is very education oriented and if he can graduate in May, which is distinct possibility given that he is an outstanding student, then it would be more feasible.
BTW, here is a list of the Adidas players in the NBA…not too shabby…
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If Perry returns for a 4th year, yet is not selected in the first round of the 2016 NBA draft, then he serves as a terrific example of what I think KU, the Big 12 and the NCAA governing bodies should do. All 3 should ante up financial incentives at the time of his graduation (the league because he has been selected a Big 12 star). KU should offer him free tuition for an advanced degree of his choosing. Four year scholarship players who have helped secure multimillions of dollars for those 3 organizations should receive compensatory consideration, esp. if their professional earning prospects for the sport appear to be relatively dismal.
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Thanks for posting the list. It helps take what I am saying out of the ethers. It amounts to about 82 players, according to my squinting, feeble eyes.
30 NBA teams x 12 active players/team = 360 player slots
82 adidas contracted players/360 slots = 23% of NBA roster slots belong to adidas contracted players
This percentage of adidas contracted NBA players closely tracks with the percentage of adidas leaning players with power AAU teams sponsored by adidas vs.power AAU teams sponsored by Nike.
I hypothesize that there are in effect two professional networks of players in the NBA that NBA management must rely on and draw employees from: one Nike-agent complex leaning and one adidas-agent complex leaning.
One supplies 77% of the roster slots.
One supplies only 23% of the roster slots.
We don’t have statistics yet, but I would hypothesize, professional networks being how they are in other professions, there would be some clustering of among franchise; i.e., some franchises would tend to favor Nike-agent complex leaning players in the fungible classification of players, over adidas-agent complex leaning. This tendency to cluster would often rule out a number of franchises almost entirely for adidas-agent complex leaning players, who start out as a small minority to begin with.
When you are a member of a professional network with only a 23% foot print in the job market, and find your self needing to look for a new slot on a new team, you face sharply reduced odds of finding a slot open to an adidas-agent complex leaning player. It is not that you cannot get another job, it is that you have many less choices to choose from.
For what its worth, I do not think the adidas contract for uniforms with ALL of the NBA, would alter this dynamic significantly, since this dynamic would logically be expected to operate at the franchise level. I doubt that if Nike were to take over the contract for supplying uniforms to the NBA that it would significantly alter the dynamic either.
But as usual, I am very grateful to you for weighing in and for your take and for the chunk of data that you presented that set me thinking further. You are always thinking and bringing a new angle that I had not considered. I appreciate it. And yes I could still be wrong about all of this.
Rock Chalk!
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@REHawk A guy in our office has a brainiac for a kid, and coming out of high school he had enough AP credits to enroll with 60 college hours-basically starting off as a junior at Texas A&M. He also had a 4 year full ride so the deal is he can apply two years of that scholarship to graduate school at A&M. So wouldn’t that work for Perry? Tarik Black came here as a graduate. Didn’t we give him a scholarship?
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@JayhawkRock78 yes and 5 year seniors, red shirt, med shirt or both as in Taylor Cox for fb.
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@Crimsonorblue22 Thanks-I thought that was the case.
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Ah…yes, but you left an important player, Under Armour, that now has a sizable share likely approaching Adidas and the up and coming Chinese companies that have started spending all that extra cash they have from actually making the shoes for the big 3.
From the Collective Bargaining Agreement:
"A team may have a maximum of 13 players on its active roster. At least eight players must suit up for every game. Any remaining players are placed in the Inactive List, and cannot play in games. Teams may have a maximum of two players on the Inactive List; this can drop to zero for up to two weeks at a time, and additional, temporary inactive positions may be added with league approval in hardship cases. The Inactive List can change up to 60 minutes before opening tip by informing the official scorer of the game. A player can be inactive for as little as one game. Players sent to the NBA Development League will continue to count on a team’s inactive list While individual teams must carry a minimum of 13 (12 active plus one inactive) players, the NBA guarantees a league-wide average of at least 14 players per team. The league is surcharged if they do not meet the average."
So, counting the required minimum average of 14 players there are at least 420 players in the NBA and since many teams carry more than 14 players, the number is likely higher.
The list below shows the Nike endorsers and I count 135 players or 33% of the available roster slots. Since many players are not really offered endorsement agreements but simply get free shoes, realistically, Nike’s share is closer to 50% than 77% and likely will get smaller, not larger with the advent of the new players. The devil is in the details.
This is the list of the Nike endorsers…
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@JayHawkFanToo Accountants can make numbers say what they want. That’s the great thing about numbers, you can make them work for you argument by adding more numbers or taking certain numbers out of the argument to sway it in your favor.
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@jaybate-1.0 Thanks for helping me understand how in the world colleges like Texas, AZ (can’t stand that coach) got Durant and 5 star recruits. I couldn’t for the life of figure out how these kids sign up to go there when they know the outcome! It is disheartening to see talented young bloods don’t have that winning mindset and sell out to $ even before the draft. I just hear Nike agents telling these kids, “don’t go to KU because you’ll work your fanny off, and you’re bound to injuries. And going to Texas, you’ll be safe and guarantee top 20 pick.” If I were a kid with talent & brain, I’d say I’m gonna go where I can get better, and WIN. It’s pitiful how these corrupted Nikes are ruining our future champions and their minds with bribes and fears. Young minds can easily be manipulated and influenced, and Nikes are taking advantage of this. Also, what is your opinion about Selden? Something happened to this kid at KU, just a gut feeling. I’d appreciate your insight - oh, spell it out for me, please!
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If you think accountants are bad, you should read the work of the Global Warming advocates…they are perpetrating one of the bigger if not the biggest scam ever and making some people very wealthy in the process.
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That is a pretty impressive list of 148 players that Nike has under contract.
Nike 148. adidas 82. Under Armour ?
Oligopolies being what they are, we should expect Under Armour to reach about 40, shortly, if a serious push by other companies were underway. We should expect about, oh, maybe 6-12 total over time, with a few blips upward during the land rush phase and then a settling out at about 6-10 in ten to 20 years. And these will source their petroleum from a dozen so petroleum refiners that are financed by the same private central banking system whose owners own controlling interests in a half to two thirds of the petroleum refiners, while their central bank finances 50% of the annual operating budgets.
One more thing about this 148/82 ratio. It is kind of a testament to how resilient the Nike-agent complex appears to be given that adidas has been aggressively trying to offset Euro losses by aggressively growing American market penetration and has as most achieved very, very, VERY expensive second banana status among NBA player share. A logical expectation would be that now that Nike has withstood the concentrated effort to buy a larger share of the player endorsement market that we are not likely to see Nike go on the offensive increasingly, which should over time winnow down adidas hard earned share, unless a big time player like a Blackstone continues to feel bullish about adidas.
I wonder how inclusive and recent these lists are? Do you have any reason to think they are inclusive?
Also, I wonder if these lists at all substantively contradict the reputed 80/20 split between Nike-agent complex leaning players and adidas-agent complex leaning players reputedly starting in the power AAU programs? I mean, I wonder if the players that are not good enough to garner endorsements still constitute an 80/20 split? Logic would suggest that they would still have that sort of a proportioning.
Next, the folks in Industrial City, Indonesia, that have reputedly tended to make Nike and adidas shoes must be very bummed about the entry of major Chinese shoecos into the sweepstakes. There may be shortly a rather large supply of excess production capacity in industrial City that could get into tactical shoe market and dramatically cut the cost of war fighting footwear, as the regime change wars likely broaden in the coming 5 years. Ugh!
Its a wild and wooly global economy regionalizing right and left.
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When Duke won back to back National Titles in 1991 and 92 they wore Adidas.
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The thing to remember about all of this stuff is something Rick Pitino said in the news story during last season about agent and agent runner involvement channelling recruits toward certain brands. I recall he said something like if its okay with the NCAA then it must be okay. As fans and laymen, we have to assume that everything that is going on is legal, whether we think its right, or fair, or not, because we are fans and laymen. There is no reason for us to assume, or infer ANYTHING illegal is going on with shoes. I would even say the same thing about the apparent refereeing biases I have been noting of late. Referee bias is not necessarily the same thing as illegality. I suppose there might be ways that refereeing bias could occur that would be illegal, but I can also imagine ways that it might not be illegal. Take professional wrestling of the kind that has always appeared to be staged and scripted. To my knowledge, they are not violating any law by staging that sort of professional wrestling. If we look at the NCAA Tournament, as a layman, I am not familiar with any laws that require the NCAA to stage an authentically competitive tournament without referee bias. Maybe such laws exist, but I don’t know about them. As a layman, I would reckon that if the NCAA wanted to turn D1 into kind of a basketball version of professional wrestling that it could do so. Maybe some lawyer will weigh in on this, but I cannot recall any criminal statute that says NCAA Division 1 Tournament has to be fair. It is one of the peculiarities of much of sport, or at least it appears to me so at this point time. Unfairness and inequity are not always necessarily illegal, I reckon, though I would of course defer to a knowledgeable legal authority on this sort of thing.
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If the shoe company’s have a strangle hold on the out comes of games in college sports, then can someone please explain to me in shoe brands only (not the ncaa hates Larry Brown or SMU is still suffering for their 1980’s football death penalty) but how SMU got robbed on a late game call while wearing Nikes but UCLA who were wearing Adidas?
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It is worth knowing, but what is the significance of Duke having worn adidas in the early 90s to today? Are you just making a point about adidas influence in the 1990s? Or are you saying the relationships between adidas and Nike have changed substantively the last 25 years, or that they have not changed substantively the last 25 years. I need some clarification here, if I am to interpret your post. Or perhaps it was not meant for me?
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"He was traded there because he plays essentially the same position as LeBron and what the Cavaliers really needed was a big time "big’ and Love was the best available…does not look like it is working well for them by the way; Love’s numbers are way down, the chemistry is not there and there have been PDDs, Public Displays of Disaffection, such as Love stating in an interview that Curry and not teammate LeBron should be the MVP and Lebron has publicly called on Love to “be’ a part of the team; obviously the honeymoon is over and it would not surprise me at all to see Love move to a different team after the season is over…of course a Championship could change things.”
I’m usually a pragmatist… but on events like this I do believe in karma. The Cavs would have been bad bad juju for a young Andrew Wiggins. I’m so glad that trade happened. Glad young Wigs doesn’t have to listen to LeBron boss him around and belittle him. Wigs positive energy paid off. He was freed to go become his own man. Bravo that!
I think shoecos have plenty of influence, especially in college and lower ball. Not sure on the pro level. They sure like to toss around a lot of cash.
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What leads you to believe the shoe companies necessarily have a stranglehold on the outcome of games?
I am NOT at all convinced at this time that the ShoeCoes are the drivers shaping the outcomes of games, if the outcomes of games really were in fact being shaped.
Please explain to me on your reasoning and facts that makes you think that ShoeCoes are determining the outcomes of games.
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One thing not mentioned with Ellis is that he could be looking to leave because of the risk of injury again. Until he got hurt, I don’t think he had as much as a scrape on his arm in his career at KU. Suddenly he gets hurt which impacted his stock and season the way he was trending. Now he and his family are probably thinking what if I were to get hurt again. Just a thought…
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Professional wrestling does not label itself as a sport but as entertainment and they freely admit that the plots are fabricated; you don’t see anyone betting in Vegas on professional wrestling. College sports are predicated on being above board and billions of $ are wagered every year on the outcome of games.
When you quote Pitino you have to quote the entirety comment and he also said something along the lines of…obviously it is not a big deal since KU seems to get a fair share of top players…or words to that effect. Just sayin’…
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@JRyman I posted elsewhere I think the SMU call had nothing to do with shoes. To me the smoking gun is viewership as in UCLA is located in a region with 14 million viewers, not to mention the rest of the PAC 12.
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@jaybate-1.0 Saying that it’s not the shoes Mars that makes a winner. When there is a higher ratio of Nike schools out there the odds are they will win more. It’s just like Windows vs Mac. There are a lot more windows users out there hence why more hackers and aware is intended for windows computers and not Macs.
Spin the numbers how ever you like but I don’t buy it as to shoe companies having the pull to get wins, now if Vegas wants you to win or lose, that I believe can happen. Just ask UNLV’s 1991 team.
Weren’t they Nike? Weren’t they a cult favorite?
Sure Nike threw more money at Duke, and when a company does that what school, especially a private school wouldn’t jump at the chance to have more income? Coaches get money from Nike and Adidas when they sign on at a school that pushes their base contracts up.
Conspiracy theories are great for Grisham Novels, but in the reality of life not so much.
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I’ve been wondering that.
Plus… if Perry is to stay at Kansas next year and do the right thing (play minutes at the 3) then he’ll really be pushed to intensify his game further. It is what he needs to do. That means more hard drives to the hole and finishes. I think he would like to draw at least one decent pay day before he gets hurt.
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Actually, regarding Pitino, the portion I referred to is not at all ripped out of context. What matters to me in this instance and what is relevant about what he said in this instance is that Rick Pitino thought that the NCAA thought that whatever was going on was okay and so he concluded it was okay too. But I would be glad for you to paste in the entirety of his comments to flesh it out, if you think it would clarify the part about him concluding that if the NCAA thought it was okay that he did too.
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@jaybate-1.0 There are no facts how shoe co’s determine the outcome. That is my point.
Saying that what ever shoe a kid wears in college can affect his draft pick is utterly ridiculous. It didn’t factor into an injured Embiid being picked last year.
Again spinning numbers to get them to say what you want is easy, but the reality of it is players get drafted on potential anymore especially OAD’s. Guys who stay are picked by more of what they have accomplished.
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Spinning the numbers implies I am trying to deceive you. Why would I want to deceive you? Quite to the contrary, I am trying to understand what is going on and admit freely that I don’t yet. Should I infer that you are spinning the numbers precisely because you are accusing me of doing something I have no reason, or intention, to do? I don’t think so. I think this is a difficult and sensitive topic for folks to think about and discuss, because it suggests possible systemic unfairness being involved in a game we love. But systemic unfairness is not necessarily illegal.
Regarding the appearance of shaping outcomes and/or spreads of games, I am assuming as a layman that whatever is going on is probably legal, or it would have already been addressed by authorities.
And to reiterate I am not at all convinced the ShoeCoes would be the ones to shape the outcomes of games, if they were being shaped in some legal way, or even in some illegal way. I am a layman and do not know about the illegal ways with sufficient expertise to contribute much knowledgeable on that count.
All I can say with some confidence is that whatever is creating the appearance of outcomes and/or spreads being shaped, it is not yet transparent and as a layman I have no reason yet to suspect illegality.
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This just in…
Perry Ellis has traded in his high tops for a pair of skates. He’ll be jumping over to the Islanders next season as a right wing.
Doubtful he will ever be called a “p” by my wife again!
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I think he will have to intensify his game further no matter what. He had maybe 5-6 games last year that were NBA worthy. I think a Senior year would really force that intensity on him more consistently. He clearly has to show more perimeter based skills both offensively and defensively. I’m certainly not speculating that the risk of injury has forced the NBA convo further ahead but anything is possible. He knows his position to scouts now and must make the best decision for himself and hopefully for KU.
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@JayHawkFanToo You got that right FanToo! This Climate Change is the biggest lie and deception, and people are falling for it! Once scientists’ research supported the COW MILK over MOM’s MILK to babies only to recant a decade later that showed MOTHER’s MILK is beneficial to babies because it provides immediate immune plus much more. And these same Scientists claim to know less than 10% of the bottom of the ocean that holds 95%+ of earth’s water, and these bozo idiots claim to know about the climate? Are you kidding me? They have yet to discover all the creatures on earth, let alone how water/ocean pressure, wind, etc work? How arrogant or ignorant are these claimed academics? Can you imagine our taxes paying for such bogus research when common sense will tell you why feed animal’s milk to a baby when mother produces it? Uneducated or educated, people stopped using their brain, and listening too much of media that is full of s—! Sorry to go off here, but your comment hit a nerve
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It must be the off season.
Thanks for giving me the chance to defend myself from things I don’t claim.
Its good to play defense. Keeps one nimble.
You appear to be spinning my spinning numbers. Are you?
Next.
I don’t know if shoe brand lean impacts how players are drafted. If you want me to draft a hypothesis about it, I guess I could, but I have not really felt a hypothesis was necessarily in order yet. I can imagine circumstances where it might, but I can imagine circumstances where it might not. I wouldn’t see anything wrong with it if shoe brand lean were a factor in drafting players, would you?
That causes me to interrupt and ask you why would it be a bad thing if ShoeCo brand lean were one of the factors considered in drafting players? I don’t see what would be wrong with it. It would be like picking a UNC student over a UC Berkeley student for a job in Chapel Hill, because you had better relations with and more respect for and did more business with UNC folks than UC Berkeley folks in Piedmont region of North Carolina. But I digress.
Wiggins situation in Cleveland is one where I could imagine that it might have played a factor in being drafted, if they were in negotiations with Lebron as the draft occurred, but I don’t ever recall saying that it did play a factor.
On the hand, I do recall wondering about if Wigs shoe lean was perhaps a part of the reason Wigs was traded out of Cleveland AFTER Lebron signed with Cleveland. But that is not quite what you appear to be suggesting about me.
Oh,well while I am playing defense, how about I play a little pre-emptive defense and defend myself from something you haven’t even inaccurately accused me of…yet…at least I don’t recall you have.
I want to play this kind of defense for awhile, because at least it is about something that interests me.
Wiggins reputedly was once a Nike lean in high school and reputedly the greatest prospect since Lebron James, then Wigs in something of a surprise move went to an adidas school with a coach contracted with adidas. He was drafted next by Cleveland. He was drafted the Number one player in the draft. Cleveland then signed premier Nike endorser, Lebron James. Cleveland then traded the Number one pick in the draft and the reputed greatest prospect since Lebron, and perhaps by then an adidas endorser, to Minnesota for a center who was never considered the greatest prospect since Lebron to my recollection, but who had played well for a franchise that had not been very successful, as far as I recall. Hmmm. In turn, the trade did not work out very well for Cleveland. Hmmm. And while Wigs has played well in Minnesota, It would appear not to have helped Wig’s career much as an endorser to play in a small midwestern market, like Minneapolis, as opposed to having played with Lebron in Cleveland, a larger market team in the Eastern Time Zone. Do you see why one might wonder? Not be sure. Not be categorical. But wonder? Maybe even hypothesize? But not claim it as a fact, or a certainty.
Is there anything else that I do not recall saying that you might like inaccurately to imply I said that I might for your and my edification and exercise defend myself against?
P.S.: I recall you are in a lot of chronic pain and I sincerely hope you have found some effective assistance with it. I know chronic pain is a terrible burden. Rock Chalk and thanks for responding to my posts even though we differ a bit on things.
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@JayHawkFanToo This political crap is getting out of hand. If you want to have people appreciate this drivel go to redstate or some other place occupied by dullards. It is people like you who devalue a degree from the University of Kansas.
