The Myth Of Three Point Defense And Ellis Success
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@HighEliteMajor Someday you should tell us of your basketball experiences. Where did you gain your knowledge? Don’t think of it as bragging or anything, I’m just curious. You have an understanding of the game that most of us don’t have here. I sure don’t, I just like to watch the ball go in the peach basket more than the other team, although I really think we are not very good lately at putting it in the peach basket from that line that never used to be on the court.
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Interesting this post has been copied over to the phog.
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@DanR Great post! A lot of times us posters tend to think “if we only did this one thing…” when really it is so much more complex than that. Yes, this team has shown it can be a good shooting team. But why? As others have pointed out, they make open shots. Those same great shooters have not shown an ability to get open shots.
People point to Iowa State as a measure of a team who offensively gets open shots and takes lots of 3s. However, as you pointed out. They are 2-2 in their last four with high volume shooting at a decent percentage.
Can we get better and be more successful as a team. Of course. But at this point the ends seem to justify the means.
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@HighEliteMajor Or in other words, the game has moved on.
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“The game has moved on.”
You should have posted that to me. I’ve been ready to explode recently because of all the poor fundamentals in college basketball today.
When I was 14, and came in contact with my new coach, a guy I believe is as good as any coach ever to coach the game, in that first year he said to our team: “This year I’m going to teach you how to rebound.”
He had come in to take over on our team that was only a 500 team. After one year he turned us into an undefeated team. For the next several years… I think we maybe lost one game, a totally rigged game. In that first year, we remained a poor shooting team, but damn if we didn’t get every ball that hit the glass. We spent a big part of every practice working on rebounds only. Our coach knew he had us for a few more years so he made the investment on rebounding fundamentals in year 1. We owned the glass the remainder of our years. I owned the glass for the remainder of my playing days. Once you learn it, you own it.
Today, I’m old, slow, had multiple surgeries, including my knee. I can barely leap over a phone book. But I bet I could still get out there and own the boards. I’ve got more butt today, too… something big to plant on another player. 30 lbs more than my weight in my playing years… more lbs to torture other players with.
The players of today would leap right over me. Great… I’d be happy to take their fouls and shoot FTs…
The game has not moved on. The players have moved on. “Over the back” is still a call that gets whistled today. It is too bad that SportsCenter doesn’t run: “Top 10 Fundamental Plays” everyday…
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@drgnslayr Other than fundamentals, I seldom see an offensive team crashing the boards. I know they need one to hang back with the shooter to prevent a run out, but I see a lot of players on all teams flat footed. When an offensive player does crash the boards it often ends in a dunk and game highlight. I guess they end up taking a play off figuring a team mate will go get the ball-and then neither does.
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@drgnslayr Your wife is a tough Cookie.
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@drgnslayr Sure, fundamentals are fundamentals. But at the college level, you simply aren’t going to see smaller teams out-rebound taller teams on a regular basis. Size matters. Was there a 3pt shot in your playing days? Because there wasn’t in Bill’s playing days. The game has changed.
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@drgnslayr Alas, I remember one day shooting around with my kids-maybe 2,003, I tried numerous times and could NOT touch the rim. That was a day I never saw coming. And I am probably at phone book status myself these days.
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@jaybate-1.0 Only thing about the wvu game in Morgantown: After that ugly first 6-10 min, KU figured out wvu’s press…and had built up a lead, only to squander it in the final few min with help from refs.
That was the crux of my posts after that game: it took Staten literally everything he had to beat ku, and we solved their press. We wont start off so ugly against wvu in AFH. Now this team has knowledge…
Regarding the rest of the playstyle philosophical discussion (again most ardently and energetically reiterated by HEM), at this point I like @drgnslayr response…which in a nutshell was keep the opponent guessing…dont become 1-dimensional. Very curious to analyze the wvu rematch…
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Just was able to read thread in full … one of those killer work days. I don’t understand why work has to interfere with Kansas basketball.
Anyway.
@DanR - Remember, I have never said that three point shooting is a “magic bullet.” You are absolutely correct there, though, it’s not a magic bullet. In fact, I stated in this post again that three point shooting is not a panacea. And it isn’t. My discussion is solely directed toward an approach to offense. This guarantees nothing. It doesn’t guarantee a FF trip, or an NC. I just believe that it gives us a better chance to reach our offensive potential, which thus gives us a better chance at a FF or NC. We have the talent. Actually, I think we have top 5 talent in the country. And I would trade our perimeter players for any other team.
@benshawks08 - You touch on a great point. They shoot open three pointers amazingly well,; and actually, there aren’t to bad with a hand near, either. And you make a correct point. They haven’t shown an ability to create their own look – Mason and Selden, actually, had been very good with the step-back. If you have great three point shooters, that need more open looks, what might you do? And is there anything else on this team that we might say is “great”?
@ZIG - You raise a great point. And I have thought about that – is Self lying in the weeds, waiting to spring the perimeter attack when he thinks it’s is needed? That is certainly plausible. If he does, my “season died” comment will be revoked. My “bet” would be that Self isn’t planning a surprise. But I’ve lost bets before. It is a very realistic possibility. I do like it better than the “bad ball” alternative that @jaybate-1.0 has suggested – but’s he’s probably right. And I’m betting with him. Self has chosen the path. But if there is a March surprise in Self’s bag of tricks, the happiest guy on the planet will be me.
@jayhawkbychoice - See, I think you underestimate our offense. I really do. Is there another group of perimeter players you’d like to have over ours? Not me. You are right, though. This team has areas of weakness. Do we do a good job of masking those weaknesses, and exploiting our strengths?
I really like the fact that Self has Ellis driving the ball. This is a better option than pure post up. This creates better opportunities for him. I just saw him play amazingly well the last four games. We went 2-2. Compare to the halves/games when we have gone balls to wall from the perimeter. Those are the only times when we have really played well offensively, right?
@drgnslayr I do feel like I’m fitting the definition of insanity!
@Lulufulu You make a good point … if Cliff is gone, what do we rely upon down low? It seems reasonable that teams will really, REALLY try to take Perry away now. Maybe, as @Zig said, Self is laying in the weeds to throw the perimeter game gauntlet down in March.
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@BeddieKU23 made two terrific points.
First, what was the game changer vs. Texas? As @BeddieKU23 said, it was Mason’s three. That was THE momentum changer. 1-8 is not a slump as @wrwlumpy said. 1-8 is an opportunity. It is an opportunity to get back to your average – drill the 6 of the next 8.
Second, and perhaps your best point – Duke has shot 568 threes to our 466 three pointers this season. Digest that. Think about that. Man, you just gave me more ammo. That is absolutely incredible. That is almost a lead argument, worthy of a thread all of it’s own. I need to breath deeply …
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Gotta toss this in … @Jesse-Newell shot this out Sunday evening. A must read:
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“I do feel like I’m fitting the definition of insanity!”
You will never be considered a Kansas diehard if you aren’t insane! It goes with the turf!
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@HighEliteMajor We may have to agree to disagree on our estimate of our offense. I believe that our 3pt shooting the last few games is not a slump, as other have cited, but that we are simply shooting back to our average. You said 1-8 is an opportunity to get back to our average and go 6-8. I think the reverse is true. Our early hot streak was the opportunity and now we are shooting back down to our average.
Our 3pt shooting in those early games were WIDE OPEN looks that defenses were giving us. And yes, we were deadly with those looks and still are. But teams were giving us those looks because of the unknown. At the beginning of the season, opponents thought Perry and #5 recruit Cliff would be efficient down low and that Frank and Wayne could drive and finish in the lane. The unknown was Franks improved shot, Kelly’s shot, and Greene’s shot and ability to stay on the floor. Teams were packing it in on us. As time went on, opponents adjusted their game plan to us.
Now you believe Self just doesn’t want us to shoot the same shots as we did before. I think he would love for Greene to be left alone like he was in the early part of the season. So, how does he do that? Well to free up the shooters, or to scheme for them, you can set screens, drive and kick out, sharp passing and ball reversal, or let the shooter create space for themselves. All things that the players don’t do very well. Now is that his fault that they don’t do those things well? That’s debatable.
You say he should scheme for these things. Well, he can’t scheme a player to set a screen without fouling, thus resulting in a turnover. We tried that. Drive and kick out, we have tried that too. Everyone, but Frank, who did this resulted in turnovers. Frank did it well for awhile, but now defenses are staying with their man on the wings and letting Frank drive into the trees and be put to the ground. All of this is taking a physical toll on Frank, and it is starting to show up in other parts of his game. If we can’t get the ball across half court because Frank is to beat up to be effective, then we can’t shoot many 3’s anyway. Sharp passing and ball reversal, not exactly this groups forte. Letting the shooter create for themselves, well nobody respects Wayne and Greene as a slashing threat. Kelly has made some improvement on this of late, as has Perry. None of them can use a shot fake, or seem to be able to move through an offense, through screens, loose their man, catch the ball, maybe a dribble or two, turn, and make a shot. None of these guys can knock down a shot if they have to do more than catch the ball, set their feet, and fire. I know that the one 3 pointer we hit last game as Frank using a screen, but that was the exception rather than the rule. Which is why he got the shot off in the first place. If he took that shot 5 times a game, a decent defender would block it 3 out of 5 times.
I also don’t believe that all 3pt attempts are created equal, so to speak. I compare those shots we made early in the year to free throws because we were so wide open. If we can shoot, say (I don’t know what our % was, lets say 75% for example) 75% on wide open looks, and be able to scheme, and screen, and run action, and still shoot the same high %; that’s like saying Greene shoot 95% on free throws so we should scheme, screen, and run action to get him 15-20, 15ft jumpers all night. We both know those are two very different shots, and thus have a very different make percentage.
So Self knowing the reality of what he has (remember he sees these guys in practice everyday, and has probably tried all the things we’ve discussed) has to figure out how to get those same open looks he had before. How does he do that? By creating an effective inside game, or at least the illusion of one, to make teams have to help off the perimeter, or pack it in. A couple days ago, someone said, what happened to the 4 out 1 in offense, we could really spread the floor? Well it’s still there ready to go when we need it. It’s good that we have some experience with it. But I replied with, spread the floor for what? Teams are spread out for us. They definitely aren’t packing it in. Future opponents, especially the top 8 teams in the dance, aren’t going to let us beat them with JUST outside shooting. They will make Perry beat us mid-range or inside. Hopefully Kelly will start really helping mid-range and inside. Maybe a little from Landen, but I’ve given up on Wayne and Jamari helping much. Maybe some Devonte’.
So why not work on those things? Dropping a few games, playing a few close ones, in past years we have wanted him to do this to develop a more balanced team for the tourney.
I just don’t feel Self has given up on shooting 3’s. He’s developing other parts of the game. If being one dimentional inside is insanity, so is being one dimentional outside. I kind of feel like Self is the sane one here.
Ok, so let me answer your questions now. Though I’m not sure they are relevant.
“Is there another group of perimeter players you’d like to have over ours?”
Well I like our guys. I like watching them grow as players and overcome adversity. But if you’re asking about different guys to win a NC, well, I haven’t watched very much of other teams this year to know. But if I could go back to past KU teams, then yeah! The 03, 08, and 12 perimeter lineups would whip these guys bad. And the 2013 guys probably would beat this group too.
"Do we do a good job of masking those weaknesses, and exploiting our strengths? "
I have to say yes, because I don’t think we are even discussing the true weaknesses of this team. And while leading our conference and with a record like ours, everything we exploit is just another strength being found.
Thanks HEM, you really challenge my thought process. I paced my kitchen for 2 hours trying to decide how to respond. Then it took me another 2 hours to type it out, but I’m not a typist.
Whether I’m right or wrong doesn’t matter to me in these discussions, thank you for that.
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@jayhawkbychoice You would take 12 and 13 perimeter players over this year? I would have to disagree my friend.
Maybe 12 because EJ was in his true position as a 2 guard. But lets not forget he was pretty mediocre the first half of the season. Mix that in the Taylor (who I believe is one of the most underated players at Kansas in the past 20 years), and the lock-down D of Travis. I get that. But who was the first wing off the bench? Teahan. The walk-on who couldn’t dribble, play defense, run, or jump and was an average 3 point shooter. And the backup PG was freshman year Tharpe. Yikes. Fast forward to this year and replace Teahan for Greene and Tharpe for Graham. This is how I break it down.
Taylor > Mason. Mason is solid but Taylor was electrifying.
EJ > Selden. This is the only one that is not comparable. EJ is believe was not the shooter Selden is, but that’s it. EJ was better in every other category.
Releford > Oubre. This one is closer than you might think. Releford is a better defender and spot up shooter but Oubre is a better play maker and rebounder.
Teahan < Greene. Not close. Greene is better is every category expect maybe team defense.
Tharpe < Graham. Again not close. Tharpe could barely get on the floor with an extremely shallow back court.
I would consider it a push considering the starters are not on another level and the bench was way behind this years team.
And as for the 13 season with EJ playing of position, and Bmac not being a play maker also, This years team in its totality of depth shouldn’t really be up for discussion.
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Ah, I think Duke is in third place in their league.
On my back table at work I have a photograph of the 08 team and I look at it each morning when I start my day. I have so appreciated these guys not because of their success but because of there different talents collected up by the master and shaken out as a team. My job deals with training and building quality circles and helping the normal person grow into a success. In some ways I see this team more like the 08 team. If Kelly would hurt his knew after the tournament and before the draft and come back the comparison would be a mirror next year. We would have the guards, wings, and the inside game if we work on it. This year it seems like we have the 07 team. It takes time and a lot of reps. to build a BS team, and he will have another championship sooner rather than latter meanwhile we will just keep winning home games and more than half of our away games in the league and win the big 12 every year. That’s what Blue Bloods programs do.
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@JhawkAlum Well lets look at the numbers!
2015: Frank, Wayne, Kelly, Brannen, Devonte
2pt%/44% 3pt%/41% FT%/73% APG/10.3 TO/6.41 STL/3.82 PPG/41.6
2013: Bmac, TRele, EJ, Naa
2pt%/52% 3pt%/37% FT%/82% APG/12.1 TO/8.1 STL/3.86 PPG/43.2
2012: Tyshawn, EJ, TRele, Conner Teahan
2pt%/54% 3pt%/34.5% FT%/71.9% APG/11.1 TO/7.2 STL/4.6 PPG/40.8
Remember that’s a 5 man rotation against 4 man rotations. Pretty even numbers when you look at the whole picture. Throw in better defense from the 2013 and 2012 guys, and I’ll stand by my statement. We can also revisit these numbers at the end of the season, because I bet the 2015 numbers are on the way down with the grind of a long season and playing better competition in the Dance.
Also not to put anyone down, but I have to stick up for Conner Teahan a little bit. You say, “But who was the first wing off the bench? Teahan. The walk-on who couldn’t dribble, play defense, run, or jump and was an average 3 point shooter.” That description kind of sounds like a cross between Selden and Greene, oh except the “walk on” part. Conner has a NC ring from 08, and played 17 minutes in the NC game in 2012. He also played 37 minutes and went 4/4 with 12pts in our last game against MU. A very important game for us Jayhawks. I know the jury is still out on this years bunch, but none of them have accomplished anything close to what Conner has yet. Here’s to hoping they do!
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@drgnslayr Call me CRAZY!!
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@jayhawkbychoice Well those are pretty interesting numbers. It’s hard to argue since we all know the defense isn’t close. Can’t say you’re wrong there!
But about Teahan, no he was a mixture of Selden/Greene. Selden is just a better player. Faster, bigger, more of a play maker (not saying he is a good one, but Teahan had zero play making ability), better at defense, and the shooting is a push.
Greene is a more similar comparison, but we all know Greene could shoot Teahan out of the building. On top of him being fast and can grab a few rebounds.
Put Greene or Seldon on the NC runner up team and Teahan never sees the court. It’s as simple as that.
But again, those numbers comparing the perimeter players make me think!
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Did Bill Self open a jewelery store?
Saw this yesterday and thought of Bill Self and HEM!
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Interesting that you have to pass through the low post(s) to enter the store…
There is even a “NO PARKING” sign in the post area.
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Yep… She’s Serbian and doesn’t accept anything lame. Always pushes hard.
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@drgnslayr Here here. Earlier in the season, I too yelled at Self - let them drop 3s! We also know of too many good teams with co-dependency on 3s to drop like flies in March. So yes I too am embracing NO IDENTITY for this team. That said, sure hope Self has been building some weapons for March.
