Huggins Retires
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It’s interesting that language generally is getting more and more coarse. Disney proudly allows the F word on a new movie for the first time. Some singer on Jimmy Kimmell or Fallon, I forget which, says “F… Jesus Christ”, a comment that gets applause and laughter and no rebuke from the host of the show, even though nothing makes my skin crawl more than when I hear that phrase used. If I objected I’m sure some would tell me to put on my big boy pants or maybe even say the same thing to me in return. Yet some language, like what Huggins used, is increasingly parsed and removed from public use. I’m fine with that too as I realize it’s an offensive term to use and people generally think of it that way. So if we’re cleaning up that language in our culture, why is it getting way more permissive in the other direction? Questions to ask and discuss.
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@wissox exactly what I was thinking on the matter. As @RockkChalkk said it is always interesting to what is allowed and what’s not depending on who’s expressing it and in what form. I think its stupid of Huggins to say it and he should know better. I really can’t think of a good excuse for Huggins in this case.
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There’s a good clip I’ve seen floating around of Ta-Nehisi Coates explaining to a kid in an audience why some folks use the N word while others cannot. He brings up the slur used by Huggy in that conversation. His main point is that we accept all of the time that words have different meanings depending on context and part of that context is who is saying the words and who they are saying them to. He talks about how his wife will sometime use the B word when hanging out and joking with her female friends and notes in that context it would be inappropriate for him to participate in the use of that word. All kinds groups have words that are appropriate for them to use when interacting with each other but then can be offensive if used by an outsider.
Words matter. So does context. In the context of the Huggy clip he was clearly not interacting as part of the in group in his use of the word. He was using a slur as a slur to demean other people. There will be consequences for those actions. Is immediate firing too harsh? Hard for me to say. His apology seemed authentic even if it lacked a ton of depth. If I were his boss (which I’m not) I’d be looking for some kind of outreach or effort to repair that relationship and SHOW he knows what he said was wrong and why. If all he is willing to do is say, I messed up, I’ll try not to do it again, well that might not be enough for me. But again, I’m not his boss so we will see how this shakes out.
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Huggy knows better. I think he must’ve been drunk.
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I dont think he should be fired. Kobe didnt get fired for calling someone the same thing. Trump didnt get fired for calling countries “shithole countries”. I dont need him to prove he isnt a bigot. He already has proven that he has that in him. Product of his environment just like all of us, worts and all.
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@approxinfinity So what should happen in your opinion? Everyone just moves on like it didn’t happen? What consequences would make sense?
“Product of his environment” can explain WHY this happened, but to me isn’t enough to excuse it. I believe people can change and get better but that doesn’t happen without work.
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Im not attempting to excuse it. It was stupid. But people do stupid things and apologize for them and we forgive them and move on. Why isnt an apology good enough?
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@approxinfinity For me, because all it did was admit he was wrong. That’s an important first step, but definitely the easiest one. A coach, especially at the level of Huggins, is the face of the program. They are supposed to represent the values of the team and the university. If those comments are in line with the values of the university, they shouldn’t fire him or seek out any other kind of consequence. However, if the university does NOT want those types of comments representing the values of the university, then how does Huggins show that he not only recognizes his comments were out of line but that he understands what IS in line with the values he is supposed to represent.
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Are friends of Villanova and Gonzaga universities feeling hurt by Huggins linking the word Catholic and male homosexuals? Is it worse to be called a Catholic homosexual or a Baptist homosexual? These various dogmas did not always tolerate (hate) each other as easily as they currently do but are united in their fear mongering. What a world we live in where children are gunned down and decapitated and we just shrug. And of course that is not the only issue but one thing is for certain, just follow the money.
Huggins will be all right and still be around to entertain us. Just hold the ones you love as tight as they will let you and I am as excited as I can remember being about this year’s team.
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I think an acknowledgement that it was wrong is what you want. As a culture, we need a consensus opinion we can rally around so we can share a common ideal. If you force people to prove their sincerity I think thats where things go haywire.
I think some freedom of movement, even in the case of regressions back to the poor choices of a bygone era, needs to be accepted when apologized for. This allows us all to evolve gracefully. At this moment Huggy was the caboose, but we need to pull him along on the train. He is still with us with a sincere apology.
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Nice.
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@approxinfinity To me, I recognize everyone is going to make mistakes but what I care about is if we LEARN from those mistakes. Maybe that’s just the teacher in me that when someone says they’ve learned something my immediate thought is, cool, show me. And I think that is important for a few reasons. First, it gives an aggrieved party can feel a since of repair without seeking vengeance in the form of punishment, but also, shows others how THEY can learn the same thing maybe before making the same mistake. These days, an apology is almost as likely to be written by a PR person than by the offender so I have trouble trusting the sincerity of public statements like that.
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I think we need to let people grow organically. Demonstrating his antiquated biases publicly shouldnt mean that suddenly he needs to accelerate his timeline on becoming unbigoted and reaching for some publicly accepted quantifiable demonstration that he has changed.
This reminds me of drivers ed courses to reduce points on license. Accomplishes very little positive for the individual, just checks a box. In fact, for the individual, it does the opposite: breeds resentment.
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@approxinfinity So if you make a mistake, say you’re sorry and just move on? How do we know if a person is actually sorry? To me, this is how we’ve operated as a society for too long and that’s why we have people who feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Again, real, natural consequences need to become commonplace in my opinion.
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@benshawks08 I mean, yes? If someone says something that offends me an apology will almost always suffice. Or even if someone accidentally cuts me off in traffic a simple wave will do. I don’t need the person to take a drivers Ed class or anything just to make me feel like they’ve learned something. Mistakes happen, people screw up. In this case, idk, maybe suspend him for a couple games max. Diversity trainings are a racket and don’t work. If he’s really sincere and knows he really messed up that’s fine with me.
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@FarmerJayhawk I just look at what Jalen did with his DUI and wish everyone would learn from that. He made an apology but never expected it to go away based on that apology. He continued to address it and embrace it as an opportunity to grow. I think it’s fair to expect the same from a head coach. That process has started with the apology statement. We will see if he continues to face it head on or tries to avoid it and hope it goes away.
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@benshawks08 I don’t doubt Jalen’s sincerity at all. Outside the court required stuff, was there anything Jalen actually did, or did he just say the right things? Yeah, he got suspended, but that’s the same kind of thing I’m thinking for Huggs
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@FarmerJayhawk Not that I’m aware of other than really talking about the personal growth that came from it. I don’t doubt Jalens sincerity at all either, because the way he talks about it shows genuine self reflection, remorse, and growth. That’s kind of what I’m trying to get at in this discussion I guess. For Jalen, we know what that looked like because we followed it as it was happening. I fully believe Huggins is capable of the same type of reflection and growth but I guess for me I just plan on waiting to see that before I move on.
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@benshawks08 said in Oh No Huggins:
@approxinfinity So if you make a mistake, say you’re sorry and just move on? How do we know if a person is actually sorry? To me, this is how we’ve operated as a society for too long and that’s why we have people who feel like they can do whatever they want and get away with it. Again, real, natural consequences need to become commonplace in my opinion.
I dont think we can know if people are actually sorry, but i dont think that should be the point. We need to agree on our desired ideals, not on whether we live them out.
If we are reasonable about our ideals, and have genuine buy in there from others, well then everyone can be their own judge and jury and hold themselves accountable.
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The thing that made me believe Jalen is that he referenced the incident as a life lesson that led to growth… publicly, unprompted, and well after the suspension.
To me, that was a stronger statement than anything said within the immediate hours following the event. But that takes time to play out. In the meantime, there’s little evidence of sincerity, and the only thing we’ve got to go on is trust and good faith. It’s really the bedrock of civilization.
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@RockkChalkk said in Oh No Huggins:
@PharmacyHawk said in Oh No Huggins:
@RockkChalkk said in Oh No Huggins:
Here we go… someone said a bad word, thank god we have so many social justice warriors able to come to the rescue of all us fragile people that cant handle it and make sure this bad person is punished as if he is the flesh and blood of satan himself.
Wait… are you seriously suggesting that what he did was appropriate? How would you feel if Bill said that? It’s not just a bad word my man, it’s a slur being used to attack a group of people. His statement was ignorance at best and malice at worst…
Thank you for proving my point, that was way easier than I thought. You suggesting I said what he did was appropriate is an extreme twisting of words against me. Just like society is going to do to Huggins. 80% of the headlines I read this morning say he said a “homophobic slur.” Luckily they haven’t changed the definition of ‘phobia’ yet, it still means “an uncontrollable, irrational, and lasting fear of a certain object, situation, or activity.” Sounds to me like Huggins was trying to do some ribbing towards a rival school and had a bad word choice. He has always seemed like a bit of a jerk and this incident supports that even more. However, if could have just added some music to the background when he said it and called himself a music artist and then he could have literally said anything and it would be considered acceptable by society. There is nothing off limits for the music industry, in fact its considered “art.”
I mean this with all due respect, but you really need to re-read what I said originally. I merely asked for you to clarify what you said. You ignored both of my questions, and that’s fine, but I never twisted your words. Society certainly doesn’t need to twist his words, he was very clear how he felt about the situation, which he certainly has freedom to say what he wants to say, but that doesn’t mean there are no repercussions (getting into the semantics of “phobia” is ridiculous, the word has a hateful intent to it at worst and ignorant at best, and I still stand by that). If someone came into my pharmacy and said that I’d immediately tell them I never want to hear that from them again or they would not be welcome at my store, regardless of whether or not they were playing music to a sick beat of it or not. Come on man, that’s nonsense. Whether something is “acceptable by society” or not doesn’t mean anything to me. There’s right and wrong. He was wrong.
I’m not calling for the guy to get fired and I never said that, but I do think that he needs to be held accountable, which is what I think most were calling for. That’s fair.
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I think everybody assumes that the word is a slur, but to me the issue isn’t the fact that it was directed at the Xavier kids or Catholics. It is the fact that to call someone that is intended to insult them for what the word represents, homosexuality–as if that itself is the awful thing.
When I was a kid in JHS my curly hair was frizzy and generated a number of racial comments. People tried to insult me by asking if my dad was Black (not the word some of them used). I thought it was just stupid that they assumed I would agree it would be a bad thing. When I asked them what would be wrong with it, it just shut them up because they couldn’t articulate their bias, and couldn’t fathom me not sharing it.
I would like Huggins to face a panel of gay Catholics who could ask him, “Why would you think calling someone gay is an insult?”
It isn’t the word–ever. It is the intent. Using the word to direct an insult proves the intent. It cannot be undone, but I do think his apology addresses what he did, AND perhaps more importantly, tries to educate others that it was wrong and unjustified.
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Assist to my bro for this…
Heres a lovely example of how people can accept responsibility, forgive, and move forward:
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According to the Athletic, Huggins may get $1 million salary reduction, suspension and Sensitivity Training. It may be finalized today.
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Wow, thats a big ass hammer coming down. I’m not sure if he will be more sensitive, but probably more tender!
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The university and athletic department will take these steps to protect (CYA) themselves and to show they are aware that the coaches action was impermissible and the sensitivity training will be a documented action thereof. Just in case some sort of civil accusation is made. It’s the way of the world.
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Maybe they should let Huggins decide what charity to donate that $1mil to, like the $25k he earns in his contract when he beats KU, which he donated to cancer research in the past.
A little less punitive, and an opportunity to show his heart.
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I like that idea, @approxinfinity. Re the salary hit, he’s still making 3.2M according to ESPN.
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Lesson learned - no radio interviews while drinking.
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And best not to talk about penises while on the air
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Tbh just seems like the university being opportunistic and cutting cost.
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@approxinfinity said in Oh No Huggins:
Maybe they should let Huggins decide what charity to donate that $1mil to, like the $25k he earns in his contract when he beats KU, which he donated to cancer research in the past.
A little less punitive, and an opportunity to show his heart.
But Huggy hasn’t had much luck with the 25,000 part to donate for charity- from beating KU , better try a ne approach lol
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@approxinfinity and box checking. Diversicrats get their cut.
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@FarmerJayhawk one man’s pound of flesh is another man’s treasure.
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@approxinfinity @FarmerJayhawk so it’s ok to have faith and trust that Huggins is sorry but not that he could possibly learn anything more about being more sensitive? I get it’s a box to check but that doesn’t mean it can’t also do some good if approached with an open mind. I learn things all the time from all kinds of trainings. That should be encouraged and celebrated not belittled. Maybe that’s just me.
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@HoraceZontal That, too. And double pinkie swear you’ll never do it again! At least 1 million reasons why.
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@benshawks08 A celebration of diversity doesn’t come by forcing everyone to do things the same. What works for one person doesn’t necessarily work for another.
I don’t need Huggins to be sorry. I need Huggins to agree publicly with what we think we should strive toward as a society.
Our ideals are what matter.
We need to find ways to agree and be better together.
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@approxinfinity so why assume a training wouldn’t work for him? Perhaps an opportunity to learn in that environment might shed light on the ideals you’d like him to acknowledge. He sounds in his statement I just posted like he is open to the idea so maybe it will be good for him.
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@approxinfinity said in Oh No Huggins:
@FarmerJayhawk one man’s pound of flesh is another man’s treasure.
Sound like those marginalized Christians are getting their share too.
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@benshawks08 maybe. People learn best when they do so electively.
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@benshawks08 theres some interesting info in your link
To begin, the Athletics Department will partner with WVU’s LGBTQ+ Center to develop annual training sessions that will address all aspects of inequality including homophobia, transphobia, sexism, ableism and more. This training and programming will be required of Coach Huggins and all current and future athletics coaching staff.
This can’t be cheap. So it does look like Huggy’s lost salary is being reappropriated to address the root issue. Good.
Next, according to the Williams Institute, West Virginia has the highest percentage of transgender youth in the nation.
Fascinating. I would have assumed the opposite.
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He’s lived aprox 70 years this way - he’s not likely to change. He may say different things in public to protect his wallet, but people rarely if ever change. Environments change and bring different aspects of their personality to light, but people at their core rarely change. He may act better in public, but is that change for the better or deep resentment? I’d rather people wore their true colors on their sleeve, I’m tired of snakes in the grass. He’s easy to identify, that weirdo hotel manager that was sucking on patrons toes while they slept…yeeeeeikes
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Yeah. And i think how you act and your ideals can and should differ a little. Thats normal and healthy. You try to be the best you can be, but you cant always be perfect.
Evolution comes with the passing of generations.
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@dylans I just can’t believe people can’t change because we are literally changing all the time. You learn something everyday whether you try to or not. Every past experience has an impact on what kind of person someone will be in the future. Put people in the right environment, give them the support and resources they need, and just about everyone will change for the better. To me that the whole point of like… everything.
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@approxinfinity I like how they are using resources from within the university and not treating it like an isolated issue but perhaps more of a systemic one. I also like Huggins acknowledging his platform and the opportunity that provides him.
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@benshawks08 said in Oh No Huggins:
@dylans I just can’t believe people can’t change because we are literally changing all the time. You learn something everyday whether you try to or not. Every past experience has an impact on what kind of person someone will be in the future. Put people in the right environment, give them the support and resources they need, and just about everyone will change for the better. To me that the whole point of like… everything.
I like your optimism.
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@dylans said in Oh No Huggins:
He’s lived aprox 70 years this way - he’s not likely to change. He may say different things in public to protect his wallet, but people rarely if ever change. Environments change and bring different aspects of their personality to light, but people at their core rarely change. He may act better in public, but is that change for the better or deep resentment? I’d rather people wore their true colors on their sleeve, I’m tired of snakes in the grass. He’s easy to identify, that weirdo hotel manager that was sucking on patrons toes while they slept…yeeeeeikes
You could’ve went all day and not mentioned the toe sucker story.
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@Jethro so bizarre
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@dylans said in Oh No Huggins:
@benshawks08 said in Oh No Huggins:
@dylans I just can’t believe people can’t change because we are literally changing all the time. You learn something everyday whether you try to or not. Every past experience has an impact on what kind of person someone will be in the future. Put people in the right environment, give them the support and resources they need, and just about everyone will change for the better. To me that the whole point of like… everything.
I like your optimism.
Might be my tragic flaw. Can’t help it.
