More than we can BEARS...
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Gillespie looked super tired last pm. I thought till the end, I quit watching, ou was boarding pretty good w/them. They just had awful shot selections!
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:
@BeddieKU23 ref
For some reason they let him get away with his crap every game. Its hard to watch him.
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@truehawk93 said in More than we can BEARS...:
I like our chances. We are better than we were during that loss in Lawrence. Bears are showing their typical dive into the second half of the season. They don’t have a proven big man. They rely too much on the three. It’s catching up and tonight exposed some of their weaknesses. They have no inside game. They have a small ball mentality that grinds other teams. OU didn’t do too bad tonight. They just don’t have fire power and they do not have inside game either. This Baylor team is not that good. Tonight, if not for the Butler kid, they lose.
Oh buddy , man I respect you as well as everybody here really but bud I’m sorry I just have to disagree with you on some things I really don’t try and start swapping verbal confrontations on subjects cause we all have our opinion and again I respect your I really do but you and I just don’t agree on some things.
They very much have an inside game , now I know I’m not spelling his name right BUT Gillispie is very legit. From where he has come Division 3 - -to a P-5 school and starting - - and the Nu 1 team in the Nation - And they are the number 1 team until someone can beat them - -and no one has done that yet. - they lost in the 2nd game of the season an haven’t lost since. - - They beat Oklahoma by a decent score on the opponents home floor WITHOUT of one of Baylors better players Teague.
They pretty much handled us on our home floor , ya I know Devon was out quite a bit of that game - - I realize that and yes we are playing a lot better , and it’s going to be a war - - taking a dive? -a dive ? - -how have they taken a dive ? - -still haven’t gotten beat final result is whether you win by 1 - - -or 21 a win is a win good teams can play great and win OR a good team can play ugly and STILL find ways to win. At the end of the day , it’s still a win. - -anyways have a great day my friend. We still loyal Jayhawk buds. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:
Who keeps vital off the boards?
No- - One Vital gonna get his
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@Crimsonorblue22 said in More than we can BEARS...:
Gillespie looked super tired last pm. I thought till the end, I quit watching, ou was boarding pretty good w/them. They just had awful shot selections!
ya like one perfect example that your talking about was , think OU down by 4 with the ball late and Doolittle comes down and jacks a shot up with out it touching any other players hand ONCE - -huge mistake - -Baylor gets the rebound and promptly comes down and scores PITIFUL
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really appreciate everyone’s views , can’t really comeback with rock solid debate, but just opinions.
Guys I get it , I hear ya when people say , OH don’t worry you can count on Dew’s epic downfall/failure just wait, saying Drew is a bad Coach - -how he is a failure how he fails BUT is he? - Can you say he is any of a worse failure not obtaining what we think should be reachable goals then Bill Self
Has people forgotten the dumpster fire Baylor was BEFORE Drew got to Baylor ? what was it like 2 appearances in the tourney in like 50 plus years, now look. People say OH Drew is an under achiever possibly/probably - -BUT you want to look like it that way - -What about Coach Self?
When we look at the comparisons of roster, how many highly recruited players have come to KU - - the OAD’S compare that to what Drew has had. - Has Drew been more of an epic failure then Self with what he has had to work with ? - - How long has KU been considered the elite/blue blood
Drew has been at Baylor in his 17th year - - Coach Self is in his 17th yr at KU. - KU and Coach has ONE - - ONE National championship with all the talent we have had- - all our early exits been ranked as a very high seed ONE more championship then Drew in the same amount of time.
How many 5 * players has Drew had compared to all the 4* 5* players we have had - but in reality look at our under achievements with what we have had to work with - -then look at Drew and what he has done. Look how far he has brought that program. Just saying guys I mean ya I like to talk the smack to but I mean come on , the guy REALLY isn’t a bad Coach. - -Everything taken into consideration the overall scheme of things he hasn’t really done that much worse then Bill
Other Schools can and have said the same thing about as they call him " Rug Head Bill " - -talk about how Coach Self and KU always under achieve - Now you can either agree and accept what I say/bring out - - or not either way it’s all good. All I’m saying is if you wanna try and make Drew out to be a terrible Coach underachieve then maybe we need to wipe our Crimson & Blue glasses and look at our own coach
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Yes. Whether Teague plays is huge.
We need Marcus and everyone to pressure the ball. I know we have a highly-ranked defense, but in reality, we don’t pass the eye test in areas on defense.
Can we disrupt their offensive flow? Can we get out there and challenge the trey? Can we get out there and challenge passes so shooters don’t receive the perfect “catch and shoot?”
It is going to take a monster effort for us to win this game and we will need every bit of our bench in this one.
We’ve got to want it more!
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@drgnslayr said in More than we can BEARS...:
Yes. Whether Teague plays is huge.
We need Marcus and everyone to pressure the ball. I know we have a highly-ranked defense, but in reality, we don’t pass the eye test in areas on defense.
Can we disrupt their offensive flow? Can we get out there and challenge the trey? Can we get out there and challenge passes so shooters don’t receive the perfect “catch and shoot?”
It is going to take a monster effort for us to win this game and we will need every bit of our bench in this one.
We’ve got to want it more!
Seems like other teams still get a lot of wide open 3 's against us , luckily for the most part they just haven’t knocked them down. - -We have seen what happens when we come up against teams that shoot the 3 really well - - do I dare say Villanova come to mind? - -even though didn’t end up mattering -we saw what a hot 3 point shooting team can do - - Iowa State wide , wide open 3’s in the 1st half - -result ? - -9-12 -we were really lucky that in this game Iowa State has a really junk defense so we kept scoring also
We let Baylor have those kind of looks or play another really good 3 point shooting tam unless we get that fixed - - were screwed - -I mean for the most part guys have had WIDE open 3 point looks
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It’s a big boy game for sure. Reminds of the OU game in Allen years back however with the placement of this game and what’s at stake this probably surpasses even that one.
If Teague plays they matchup extremely well with us again.
If I’m both teams I’m thinking how quickly can I get Doke/Gillespie to 1 foul before the first media timeout. Either guy having 2 in the first half would really change the dynamic. Dave is better then their backup
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Some things I’ve found and heard/read while waiting for the game Saturday , Her is some thing I didn’t realize : you know were always talking about our three point shooting.
A poster on another site that I follow had this talking about actually what a dangerous 3 point team we can be and then followed it up by pointing out that :
we have had 5 players that has made at least 5 treys in a game .- -We have had 4 players that has made 6 treys in a game - - -and there has been 10 different games where we had a single player make 4
Breaks own as follows : Moss - -5 vs Monmouth , 4 @ Stanford & 6 @ OU. - - - - Agbaji- - 5 vs Milwaukee , 4 vs Colorado & 4 vs Iowa St - - - - Braun- - 6 vs KSU , 4 vs OSU- - - - Garrett- - 6 vs OU- - - - Dotson- - 6 vs Iowa St- - - -
Another little tid bit I heart on sports program - -think about this , When Doke is on the floor , Ku is best in the Nation in rim Protection. - - - There has been 45 points against Doke and opponents are averaging less then a 1/2 point - -that’s just crazy - -there you go lol. - - -ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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It will be a battle, probably the biggest regular season game this year in college hoops. Baylor is great because of the togetherness of their team and the athleticism of their guards. They basically surrounded Doke and either stole the entry pass or slapped it outta Dokes hands in the first meeting. We need all of our guards to be ready not just Dot and Garrett. Outside shooting will be a big key, knocking down open 3s to prevent them from double and tripling Doke will be a must. People always talk about how beating a zone defense down the floor is key, I agree but beating any defense down the floor is helpful. This honestly could be the biggest game in Baylor men’s program history. We play in big games every year. I’m not sure if that’s an advantage for us or not but it can’t hurt.
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Coaching Confidential from ESPN on the matchup. Only 1 coach apparently got the memo!
Highlights:
Butler vs Dotson
“I think Dotson is the player of the year in the conference by far,” one Big 12 coach said.
“Jared Butler is the player of the year in our league,” another coach said.
“If he’s hitting jump shots, there’s nothing you can do with him,” another coach added. “People want to go under pick-and-rolls, but he’s going to get where he wants to go.” (Dotson)
“Butler can take a game over at any time,” one coach said.
MaCio Teague’s Availability:
There’s no consensus from opposing coaches on how much his absence would impact Baylor.
They’re able to switch everything," one coach said. “If you’re putting Bandoo in, you can attack him. He becomes the mismatch. His counter would be if he’s making 3s. But if he’s not making 3s, I don’t think Baylor has enough firepower.” “They have four guards, so with Teague out, they still have three guards that can beat you. They’re going to just play deeper minutes,” another coach countered. "I don’t know if it impacts them. They have four.
Who’s better Defensively:
One coach said that Baylor has better individual defenders but that Kansas is better as a team.
“Baylor messed us up because they switch 1 through 5. That runs you out of everything,” he said. “They don’t let the ball in the post; they front. Mark Vital – him and Marcus Garrett are the two best defenders in the conference. Baylor has better individual talents, and then Kansas has a good scheme. What they’re doing, how they protect [Udoka] Azubuike in ball screens. They don’t give up any second chances; they’re able to get every rebound.”
“Garrett is the X factor,” one coach said.
Doke:
His physicality and the way he plays around the rim, you can’t simulate it in practice," one coach said. “Where he catches the ball, it’s either two points or a foul. And part of fouling is you get them in the bonus so early. It just becomes another factor to deal with. He’s just such a factor with his ability around the rim. He’s not missing many inside of 8 feet.”
Keys to the Game:
For Baylor, most of the coaches I spoke with pointed to the Bears’ need to make shots from the perimeter. They’re making only 32.5% of their 3-point attempts in conference play, and they’ve been a bit streaky in the Big 12 despite having four capable shooters.
On the other side, it boiled down to Kansas’ two stars. Dotson and Azubuike form the best inside-outside tandem in the country, but neither player was at his best in the first meeting between the two teams. Dotson needs to get out in transition and needs to be effective with ball screens, and Azubuike needs to dominate down low. Gillespie isn’t a match for him physically, but Azubuike simply couldn’t get touches in good positions the first time around.
Picks:
Baylor: “I think Baylor can win it all. I think they’re deeper.”
Baylor: “I’d pick Baylor. Baylor just has too many weapons, they have too many guys.”
Kansas: “I would tend to lean toward Kansas. Baylor hasn’t been at that level since that first game. This is the type of game Kansas has been built on. They’re never rattled in games. It’s never too big. They don’t flinch.”
Baylor: “It’s hard to pick against Baylor. Their switching causes a lot of problems.”
Baylor: “I think Baylor wins it. Azubuike is the toughest matchup in our league, and Baylor has the only front line that can handle him.”
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Guess we don’t have weapons or too many guys! Huh guess I’m watching the wrong games
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@BeddieKU23 said in More than we can BEARS...:
Guess we don’t have weapons or too many guys! Huh guess I’m watching the wrong games
Oh we have the weapons. - -One thing that was brought out in this and what I was thinking and worried about - - AGAIN. whoever was spot on with this. In the 1st game Baylor took Doke out of the game. They engulfed him the 1st time he couldn’t make any kind of move, he was lucky to even catch the ball. suffocating around him. We need to find ways to get Doke the ball or gonna be a long day
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The first Baylor game was pretty much a carbon copy of how KU loses Tournament games. Turnovers- they dominated on points off turnovers, Butler had a dominant individual showing- scored 10 straight points at one point (something that usually happens when KU loses in March), KU was down its best player for a big chunk of the game (in-game uncontrollable event), - KU shot woefully from 2 & 3 (always a recipe for Tourney exits).
What I like about the timing of this 2nd game is KU has improved a great deal from that game. They haven’t lost since, guys are healthy and chemistry is strong since the switch to the 4 guard scheme.
I saw a recent tweet from Jesse that stated Baylor did a great job attacking Braun & Moss in that game. Those two guys have improved on the defensive end since that game.
KU also made a schematic mistake allowing Doke to be shadowed by Vital or the guard closest to him which forced double teams upon entry pass and catch. Our guards were terrible in that game passing into Doke. There was one play where Agbaji missed so poorly on a post feed it hit the backboard. Some of KU’s players were rattled in that game. On a positive note when KU used Doke on high ball screen action they were able to run smoother offense and get things moving. I think the offense has looked a lot smoother the past month with the switch to 4 guards and I’m interested to see how much they camp Doke on the post and try and feed him. I think they will pick their spots and try and run him around ball screens because there maybe a higher probability of getting him a good post touch that Baylor cannot double team with him moving around. Baylor scouted KU to a T in that first matchup.
Basically I think the level KU is playing on right now is higher then it was 10 games ago. We’re seeing the best basketball right now from our best players (Devon, Doke, Marcus) which wasn’t the case in the first matchup as well. I’m optimistic we can leave Waco with the W
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@jayballer73 WHY? He’s like 6’ 5", right? Or am i thinking of someone else. Sorry, i didn’t google it.
If he IS 6’5" - block out and out hustle him. It’s not rocket surgery. Or brain science.
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@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:
@jayballer73 WHY? He’s like 6’ 5", right? Or am i thinking of someone else. Sorry, i didn’t google it.
If he IS 6’5" - block out and out hustle him. It’s not rocket surgery. Or brain science.
Easier then it sounds. - -vital is just a smaller compact version of Rico Gathers - the guy just has a nose for the ball, a beast keeping him off their offensive boards - -this is on area where we have to be careful and Doke not pick up any cheap fouls, as can NOT afford for Doke to get in foul trouble and have to sit any extended time in this game
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@jayballer73 Charles Barkley
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Barkley was much better offensively
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@jayballer73 I’m with you, man. Baylor is a very good team and Drew can coach. He’s thus far probably the top candidate for National Coach of the Year. I don’t subscribe to the Baylor is going to choke as usual theory, but do subscribe to the “we are going to beat them this game, though” one - but we’re certainly going to have to earn it. They are at home, and aren’t going to lay down.
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This game will be the measuring stick (for KU) for the rest of the season until the final four.
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I will very much agree with you that , right now, Baylor is a very good team.
Drew can not coach. Not. He is not a good coach. He has proven that year after year. He’s had some of the best talent in the country over the years and done nothing with it. This season, he happens to have very good talent that have figured out how to play together well.
They are winning in spite of Drew, not because of him. I don’t expect you to agree.
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@nuleafjhawk Does he really ever get as much talent in Waco as we sometimes think? I don’t remember any top 10 recruiting classes.
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@dylans Maybe not great “classes”, but he’s had some outstanding individual players over the years.
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@dylans Does anyone think Bruce Weber is a great, great coach? But - K State won the Big 12 last year…
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@nuleafjhawk No I don’t think Weber is great, but KU also fielded a team last year that nearly made me quit watching basketball with its apathetic play.
This year KU has a very good team and Baylor is giving them a run for their money. (Head to head win in Allen and they beat Nova while KU melted down in the final seconds and lost in a puddle of pee) I think KU wins Saturday and ultimately proves to be the better team, but Baylor is final four caliber. I don’t think Drew is on Self’s level, but why does the thought of him being decent offend you so? It’s great to get challenged from within the conference. Especially if it’s top heavy - think of a normal ACC year.
The current Baylor roster has 2 guys ESPN rated as high as an 83 score. KU has 7 guys rated 83 or higher. The 83s are Enaruna and Lightfoot. Meaning those would be Baylor’s best recruits. Wilson was an 85, better talent than any Baylor player. Most of those guys wouldn’t even see the floor for KU.
Please don’t make me defend Drewsh, but saying he’s a bad coach given what he’s doing this season isn’t a hill I’d die on.
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@dylans What makes you think Drew offends me? I just don’t think he’s a good coach. That’s not a sin. He’s proved it to me for a long time now.
He DID win a conference championship !! With Valparaiso. Seventeen years ago.
His Baylor resume? Barely over .600 winning percent. Meh.
Conference Championships - ZERO. Meh.
Final Four Appearances - ZERO. Meh.
I don’t hate the guy. He’s not Gregg Marshall. I just don’t think he’s a good coach. The statistics back me up. Yes, he’s having a good year. Finally.
I don’t even have to compare him to Self, that wouldn’t be fair. Nobody else is Bill Self. Compare Drew to almost any other coach in the league. He doesn’t stack up. That doesn’t mean he offends me.
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@nuleafjhawk probably because you come out swinging every time his name is brought up. Comparing him to Weber is some vitriol. I haven’t historically thought much of the guy myself, but the last two years he’s fielded good teams. Good teams built from nothing recruits that somehow KU fans end up drooling over at some point. It’s weird is all.
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What gets me going about Drew is how ESPN views him. They (I forgot who exactly) said that he’s the best at rebuilding a program with how well Baylor is doing this year. I’m sorry but if it took a “great” coach 17 years to reach this point, is he that great?
That being said I do think that Baylor is the real deal this year and IMO are a close second to KU to win it all.
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@dylans Well, I’ve always respected you here. Again, I guess we all have our own opinions. I don’t hate the guy, I just don’t get why, after 17 years everyone thinks he’s a top flight coach. My opinion.
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That seems a bit harsh but its your opinion to have. I think his biggest weakness over the years has been big games (especially against KU in conference & in the Tournament).
Something changed this year though. Switched to M2M defense from his exotic zone to match the personnel. He made a change that benefited the team.
He hit home-runs on the transfer market in Teague/Mitchell and got extremely lucky Jared Butler backed out of his commitment to Alabama in the spring. Those guys have developed a great deal under Drew’s watch.
The big thing with this roster is almost everyone in the lineup has had the benefit of a red-shirt year which is something Drew loves to do. It’s an old team. Maybe Freddie Gillespie was always destined to be this good but his story is pretty unique- started at D3, walked on at Baylor, earned a scholarship and now starts and is an integral part of their success. I’ll give credit where it’s due, Drew has hit it rich this year
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@BeddieKU23 OK. Here’s the deal. I’m seriously confused.
How is it harsh to think that a guy with those stats is not a good coach? Would you be super stoked to have him at KU for 17 years with those stats?
I already know the answer is NO. You would be fit to be tied (whatever that means).
It’s not harsh to look at a sheet of statistics and say “Hmmm - this dude is not a good coach”.
I didn’t say he was a wife beater, a child molester, a bad neighbor or that he steals from the offering plate at church. Just that, based on 540+ games of history - he’s not a great coach.
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Nice little article from Dennis Dodd of all people who got some good quotes from Self.
One thing that stood out to me is that he is 100% placing the blame from Late Night at the feet of Long.
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@nuleafjhawk No disrespect meant, yours is a common opinion and one you seem entrenched in. I just don’t know if it’s 100% deserved. Any success at Baylor is harder to come by than at a blue blood. As far as Drew goes I don’t believe he has star potential Beard does. If Scott Drew can sustain his current level of success without a big drop off he may prove me wrong on that front.
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Then I guess I do think labeling him “not a good coach” a harsh statement. What’s your definition of a good coach? I generally have no idea since it seems to be a moving target for everyone. Again your opinion to have, wasn’t bagging on you about it, just found it interesting.
Things to consider:
He’s the winningest coach in Baylor History and has more NCAA tournament appearances then any predecessor combined, Baylor Basketball has been around over 100 years.
They have only been to 1 championship game in their history, 72 years ago. He’s taken them to the Sweet 16/Elite 8 4 times. Baylor Basketball doesn’t have the rich history KU has and I think that has to be taken into account that Drew has elevated the program to its current status because nobody else did before. I’m in no way advocating for Drew and Baylor just adding perspective
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Scott Drew is a good coach. He has a .603 career winning percentage at Baylor, including those first 3 years when he was dealing with the aftermath of the Dave Bliss scandal. In Drew’s third season at Baylor, they were banned from playing a non-conference schedule because of that fallout. Year 4 is when Drew started to have any hope of success at Baylor because that’s when harshest sanctions were over with and he could begin actually building a program.
Most programs would be thrilled with a coach that makes the NCAA tournament essentially 70% of the time.
Scott Drew wouldn’t be near the top of my wishlist for Self replacement’s, but there’s also plenty of worse options out there. I would consider him to be in the 20-25 range for top coaches. He’s definitely not an elite coach because the consistency isn’t there, but he’s by no means a bad coach.
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Scott Drew is a good coach who has succeeded in what anyone would have thought was an impossible situation.
To pretend it’s anything else is being disingenuous at best.
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@dylans said in More than we can BEARS...:
@nuleafjhawk No disrespect meant, yours is a common opinion and one you seem entrenched in. I just don’t know if it’s 100% deserved. Any success at Baylor is harder to come by than at a blue blood. As far as Drew goes I don’t believe he has star potential Beard does. If Scott Drew can sustain his current level of success without a big drop off he may prove me wrong on that front.
His team might be really good next year as well.
If Butler/Teague/Mitchell return - that’s crazy. Vital, Mayer & Thamba as well from current roster
They have two transfers sitting this year, one a high scoring guard in the mold of Teague & a big they are high on.
They signed 3 Top 100 kids as well and redshirted a 3 star Small Forward. Drew looks to be positioning for a multi year run
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Sorry @nuleafjhawk I didn’t mean to turn this into a Scott Drew lovefest. Lol I was just surprised at your position this season. Most years I wouldn’t argue with you one bit.
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Agree he’s having an “outlier” year. I don’t think its a lovefest by any means but we can give respect where its due. He did come into Allen Fieldhouse and beat us down pretty good. Tomorrow we can return the favor
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@BeddieKU23 …well from me…that’s by far the most nice things I’ve said about Drew.
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@dylans I guess it’s like when my wife says “Do these jeans make my butt look big?” and I say “No, it’s the other way around”.
I don’t mean anything by it - just an observation.
I will give him credit for this year - he’s obviously having a great season. I just don’t see him as a great coach for the long haul.
Oh yeah - the jeans comment never happened or i wouldn’t be able to type.
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I have noticed from watching them a lot this year, there’s an ast coach that seems to do an awful lot of talking to the players and Drew during the TO’s.
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@nuleafjhawk I didn’t say that he was a great, great coach.
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@Marco It doesn’t matter. If you like him, great. I don’t - that should be great too. I mean, we could all have this debate about Bruce Weber - in my opinion a so-so coach (at best) but since he has a Big 12 Conference Championship under his belt, some folks might think he’s a great coach.
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@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:
@BeddieKU23 OK. Here’s the deal. I’m seriously confused.
How is it harsh to think that a guy with those stats is not a good coach? Would you be super stoked to have him at KU for 17 years with those stats?
I already know the answer is NO. You would be fit to be tied (whatever that means).
It’s not harsh to look at a sheet of statistics and say “Hmmm - this dude is not a good coach”. woke I didn’t say he was a wife beater, a child molester, a bad neighbor or that he steals from the offering plate at church. Just that, based on 540+ games of history - he’s not a great coach.
What did Baylor do in basketball before Drew? 17 years he has coached there, how many NCAA tournaments? How many before he came?
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@nuleafjhawk I didn’t say that I like him.
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@nuleafjhawk I’d take Drew over Weber any day of the week.
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@nuleafjhawk said in More than we can BEARS...:
@dylans I guess it’s like when my wife says “Do these jeans make my butt look big?” and I say “No, it’s the other way around”.
I don’t mean anything by it - just an observation.
I will give him credit for this year - he’s obviously having a great season. I just don’t see him as a great coach for the long haul.
Oh yeah - the jeans comment never happened or i wouldn’t be able to type.
Look at it this way in 17 years of Coaching respective teams. - - - Coach Self ONE National Championship - - Coach Drew ZERO. - -that’s not much to say he is not a Good Coach.
I don’t need to hear well Coach Self has gotten further , more elite 8’s - - more final fours. in that length of time. So just because Coach Self has made Elite8’s/final 4’s he is better, well he is better but does that mean Drew is NOT a good Coach ? - - umm no. - -so let me ask you who is the bigger failure? - - Self Or Drew ? - - Who has had way more OAD’S ? - - ranked top 20 players in the Nation ? - answer ? - - So who is the bigger failure with what they have had to work with? How about our early exits we have had? - -Does that mean Coach Self is a bad Coach ? - - umm NO and neither is Drew
