Offense Coming Around....
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BeddieKU23 said:
I would be surprised if Dayton as a team played that well again all season. Toppin is a stud but I think the other guys benefited from the game plan and the way KU defends. They gave their best shot and it still wasn’t enough even with a great shooting night from 3.
The, “the way KU defends” statement stood out to me. I continue to shake my head regarding our choices on defense. When will Self see the three point line to be as much of a threat as the ball being inside 8 feet?
And how many of their 33 attempts (16 made) were pretty much wide open (which is the biggest concern)?
We can’t play conventional help defense and effectively guard the three point line. It just seems to me that we over commit in help situations and that creates open looks at the line. Too easy.
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@HighEliteMajor Totally agree, guys keep dropping off their man to help on drives and getting out of position and there is often no need. Particularly when there is a pretty efficient rim protector lying in wait! Also about half of Garrets fouls, and perhaps others as well, were the result of other guys not being where they needed to be. The defense was high energy, but perhaps not well conceived or perhaps performed.
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The interesting part is that it was deliberate by Self and a departure from how we defended against BYU. He dared Dayton to make threes and they obliged. We will never know now how the game would have went if Bill would have played them the same way. I’m guessing Toppin would have went off, but maybe the end result would have been similar (or better).
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Daring Dayton to make 3s with a team full of shooters seemed redicilous but maybe the damage was done by limiting Toppin early. Dayton was just a much better team then BYU and a very good passing team which helped facilitate open looks
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Biggest question for me too regarding the defensive scheme. He clearly hasn’t gotten it as nova and auburn tossed him from the tourney this way and other reg season examples. He may never adjust or it’s just going to take more losses to finally break him. If there is ever a shakeup in the assistants I’d love for Self to get a defensive minded coach that would influence Self to change
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HighEliteMajor said:
BeddieKU23 said:
I would be surprised if Dayton as a team played that well again all season. Toppin is a stud but I think the other guys benefited from the game plan and the way KU defends. They gave their best shot and it still wasn’t enough even with a great shooting night from 3.
The, “the way KU defends” statement stood out to me. I continue to shake my head regarding our choices on defense. When will Self see the three point line to be as much of a threat as the ball being inside 8 feet?
And how many of their 33 attempts (16 made) were pretty much wide open (which is the biggest concern)?
We can’t play conventional help defense and effectively guard the three point line. It just seems to me that we over commit in help situations and that creates open looks at the line. Too easy.
Mercy KU has done this for I forget how many years. I’ve said numerous times myself - -opponents WIDE, WIDE open on some three’s - - just crazy. I don’t know how many times an opponent has been so open on the base line hell he could have time to eat a sacked lunch and still have time to make the open three. - -I just don’t get it - - - KU went to that zone for a stretch against Dayton and I was screamin - - -WTF - -I mean these guys were killing it from the three against man to man - -and we go ZONE - -I’m to old for that crap gonna be the end of me yet lol
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Self wants to challenge these guys. Letting Dayton play it their way was the way we were going to get their best shot. We need to be challenged or we will be mediocre at best. We witnessed “the chip” in this one… on display.
I think our guys grew up just a bit in one night. A couple of them may have even sprouted whiskers! (ha)
What no one can argue is the fact that we grew more in this game than in any previous game this year, including the Duke disaster.
I could see us lose to Colorado at home on the 7th. Having all this time and after riding such a high from a game that was more like war than basketball… How we gonna be up for the Buffs? Well you can believe Self thought of that already, probably before departing the island.
Will this team be a “Jekyll / Hyde” team? Time will tell. I’m outta here to go watch the Dayton game again. #4!
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@jayballer73 And when we see opponents wide open for easy 3 balls, at least one of our guards is in the paint on defense. KU defense usually has the point guard in the paint, which I just don’t understand. I remember Frank hanging out by the rim on defense and now I see Dotson there. Maybe, that’s just how the defensive rotation ended with our guard on a forward, but it happens so often, I’ve concluded that Self wants a guard in the paint when the shot goes up.
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@drgnslayr Coach was very antimated on the sideline of the Dayton game. I said throughout that coach really wanted this win. Did everyone else see Coach as more into the game? I know he said the level of noise in the small building made it difficult to coach on the sideline. But, I saw him pacing and stalking the sideline; really worked up.
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One of our biggest chip carriers this year is Self himself!
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Offense coming around would mean someone has learned to shoot the ball past 15’! 4-11 from 3. I’m tired of the dump it to the big man approach. I get it Doke was dominant here, but I’d bet my life that he wont shoot that good at the line again this year. Call me a debbie downer but Self is stuck in the early 2000s and it isn’t ever changing. This win with that style just cemented his old school thinking once again. But hey we got another Maui invitational trophy.
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@BigBad literally made the final four with a heavy three point shooting team. Self adapts to his personnel. This team will feed Doke and drive the ball.
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I always appreciate your posts.
I think anytime Self can score points in the paint with a guy shooting 70whatever % like Doke, he is going to take advantage of it.
At this stage, it’s like football. Early in the season it’s best to just establish whatever part of the offense that you can. The opposing defense starts feeding off that and it opens up other opportunities. In our case, for now pound the ball low, especially on small teams.
It’s best we don’t push the trey ball until our offense is established as a low post offense. Give our guards time to feel comfortable in the system and ease their way into a solid shooting % from trey.
You can’t expect this team to bomb the trey like some of our other past teams… where we were stocked with deep ball gunners and didn’t have a post presence.
For now, it is best we pound the ball in the paint (as long as we can be successful) and sprinkle in some treys… hopefully at a respectable success %.
What I do know about this team… Self wants them to feed the post, but he hasn’t restricted his guards from taking open trey shots. That’s not going to happen.
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@BShark Because Self and company got lucky with 2 kids that were after thoughts in recruiting. Mason’s class was typical Self, Wiggins and Selden neither could or still can shoot. Devonte was another lucky one. Josh Jackson, Grimes, Preston, DeSousa…Its all the same. Look Ive said it before. We will finish top 5 maybe a 1 seed and we will lose to a team that can withstand our D and actually shoot.
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@drgnslayr I’'m just frustrated with the idea that this season will end like most.
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BigBad said:
@BShark Because Self and company got lucky with 2 kids that were after thoughts in recruiting. Mason’s class was typical Self, Wiggins and Selden neither could or still can shoot. Devonte was another lucky one. Josh Jackson, Grimes, Preston, DeSousa…Its all the same. Look Ive said it before. We will finish top 5 maybe a 1 seed and we will lose to a team that can withstand our D and actually shoot.
Selden shot 39% from three as a JR.
In the last two classes, these guys are all considered “shooters”: Braun, Wilson, McBride, Thompson, Jossell.
Muscadin has a nice touch as well for a big, and has been hitting some threes.
Obviously McBride didn’t work out and he quit on the team. Time will tell on the rest but Bill has been going after shooters.
JRE and Hurt can both shoot, those were Self first choices and he missed on them.
Does the current team have an issue shooting the three? Absolutely but there is nothing to do about it now. I do not expect this team to win a national title.
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BShark said:
BigBad said:
@BShark Because Self and company got lucky with 2 kids that were after thoughts in recruiting. Mason’s class was typical Self, Wiggins and Selden neither could or still can shoot. Devonte was another lucky one. Josh Jackson, Grimes, Preston, DeSousa…Its all the same. Look Ive said it before. We will finish top 5 maybe a 1 seed and we will lose to a team that can withstand our D and actually shoot.
Selden shot 39% from three as a JR.
And went 0-6 in his last game against Villanova. At least Devonte came back after his stinker against Oregon.
I understand we are not winning a national title with this group. Just frustrating.
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Well… imagine being a fan of UCLA when they were winning all those titles. I bet they became spoiled rotten!
No chance of that happening here! ha…
But seriously, winning a National Championship takes so many things going right at the same time, including good fortune.
I dream about titles… but I just try to enjoy every season, every game. Maybe I’m just old! But I have learned to enjoy the moment because eventually there won’t be moments left.
I’m sending you some good holiday energy! It’s up there in the clouds now awaiting for you to grab it! Take good care, my friend!
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This team continues to be ungodly terrible fundamentally on both sides. The offense turns the ball over repeatedly on fast breaks because we don’t make the easy pass or have any spacing. Being a defensive minded coach as I am, I’ve wanted to pull my hair out over the past five years. Stuff that I was teaching middle schoolers when I was coaching (and was taught while playing at that age). Defensive rules #1 stop the ball, #2 always see ball and man, #3 be between man and hoop, #4 never go under a screen on a shooter and #5 locate box out. I feel like we do zero of those well as a team. If you do those simple things that haven’t changed in 40+ years you have a chance to succeed. That’s before you even go thru shell drills for help defense.
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@kjayhawks #6 Put your hand up when your man is shooting.
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@KirkIsMyHinrich surely that’s a given lol
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KirkIsMyHinrich said:
@kjayhawks #6 Put your hand up when your man is shooting.
#7 Never get involved in a land war in Asia.
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kjayhawks said:
This team continues to be ungodly terrible fundamentally on both sides. The offense turns the ball over repeatedly on fast breaks because we don’t make the easy pass or have any spacing. Being a defensive minded coach as I am, I’ve wanted to pull my hair out over the past five years. Stuff that I was teaching middle schoolers when I was coaching (and was taught while playing at that age). Defensive rules #1 stop the ball, #2 always see ball and man, #3 be between man and hoop, #4 never go under a screen on a shooter and #5 locate box out. I feel like we do zero of those well as a team. If you do those simple things that haven’t changed in 40+ years you have a chance to succeed. That’s before you even go thru shell drills for help defense.
Well, defending the three does change priorities. Like item #1. And item #2. And item #3. If you are wanting to defend the three as a co-equal threat to a lay-up, it requires a change in conventional thought process on defense and how you do things.
For example, if you are committed to stop the three, many times you cannot abandon your post to help on a drive to the hoop. It’s a sacrifice. There are many times when your ball awareness (item #2) is far less acute and actually very limited when you are truly guarding the three. And on item #3 (I’m assuming of course you mean when your man has the ball), there are clearly times where your defense will shade an angle to encourage a drive and discourage the shot or repositioning to a three point shooting position. For example, three point shooter is inside the arc, right handed. You close tight to is right side, with your body open a bit to the hoop – so you can attack the shot or step back. This then encourages the off hand dribble, but leaves you a bit exposed of course on the drive. Threat evaluation. Just a quick response today when I saw this.
Three point defense is a change in mentality when that threat is co-equal to a lay-up or close to the hoop shot.
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I love to see others in here scream about fundamentals. I sometimes feel alone doing that and like I’m pestering the readers with my stickler behavior.
My two biggest pet peeves are:
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Sealing off the boards
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Properly hedging (on the ball, off the ball… all of it)
Both of my peeves are about positioning. Nothing about athleticism. It’s all about being mentally involved in the game.
I still watch NBA, especially the playoffs, because sometimes I get to see a little bit of the fundamentals at work, though less all the time.
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The rebounding issue bothers me as well. I was a very short, light, unskilled post and got tons of rebounds. No one was getting the ball away from me without blood involved. I don’t see that mindset from any of our bigs yet. We never will with Dok. Thomas Robinson got it and led the country in rebs. It’s all about effort and a basic understanding of geometry, close to the rim you should know where the rebound is going and move to that spot to seal it off.
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I hear that we are recruiting Dennis Rodman, Jr. Lol. But serious, that guy could flat out rebound (Sr. that is) - T-Rob was our worm. Interesting that as big as Doke is he doesn’t rebound better.
It’s certainly not because he is too weak or short, or for that matter not being quick enough. Too bad, if he were a Great - and I do mean Great - rebounder (bad free throw percentage and injuries aside) he would be a surefire first round pick.
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I love the discussion on boxing out/sealing, geometry, etc. When you see folks that should rebound, that don’t do a very good job, it’s those little things. Understanding angles. Sealing off your space. Finding a threat and eliminating it (boxing out). This stuff wins games. It just does.
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If Dok cleared the ball the way Withey did (hands on either side of the ball elbows up turning his body side to side) he’d probably concuss someone. However, I do think rebounding would get a lot easier for him as people would be leery of getting too close to that (now mean) behemoth. No need for the refs to keep the “cylinder” clean - elbows work better.
I’m old school that way. I miss the physicality of hand checking on defense even. It uglies up the game, but separates the men from the Trae’s.
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For Doke… rebounding is like free throws. He needs better emotional control in games (hence, mental control). This is the way he will slow the game down so he can do the right things.
https://www.nytimes.com/2014/02/23/sports/olympics/olympians-use-imagery-as-mental-training.html
Doke should imagine himself at the line, calm, collected, and focusing on the back of the rim. Releasing the ball with perfect form. He should practice FTs in the shower probably more than on the court, though developing muscle memory will help him, too.
He should study game tape. He should study his own mind… dreaming back through past games to better see the game. Go back and learn from his mistakes. See where he was emotionally during games. Conquer that now. It’s not like he should be without emotion. He should maintain high emotion that is focused. This isn’t something Doke can be taught from coaches. Doke needs to teach Doke.
Effort has never been Doke’s problem. If anything… he could stand to learn where he can conserve his energy within a game in places… then spend wildly in other areas. He’s a guy who could use visualization to change his game, if he puts his energy into it… like he put his energy into creating his new body. Doke has so much power in areas that really count. I just hope he takes on that last hurdle to receive his ultimate payoff at the finish line.
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Is it possible for Self to get back to his roots? A team that locks down on D, runs when provided the opportunity, and values every possession - no turnovers, only shots at the rim or open threes. Not as slow as Virginia, but the point is to frustrate the other team. They get a poor shot late in the clock or jack up a quick shot and then have to wait on Kansas to run their stuff 20-25 seconds of offense before an open shot. Devastating.
The scores would come down, but the March success should go up. We may holler about the lack of threes being shot or the slower pace, but winning cures all.
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@drgnslayr I think Dok may just have a slow processor when it comes to angles. You’re correct it’s not an effort issue IMHO.
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That’s how it appears. That is how it always appears for players who try to resolve the game while playing. Self calls it “over-thinking the game.”
If he does his mental work ahead of the game, the game will slow down and he’ll be able to play like he should play; playing loose and free!
Silvio is another guy who could really use this. Actually… all our guys could improve considerably by training with visualization.
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I also think folks are “naturals” at many different skills, of course, but rebounding being one. There was a 30 for 30 on ESPN, or something like that, where Rodman had no real explanation as to why he was good at rebounding. A lot of this stuff is DNA related. Positioning, anticipation, agility, instinct, etc. A lot is the choice to give effort, too. Rebounding though can be learned more than, say, shooting a jumper. @drgnslayr could teach the trombone player to rebound much easier than teaching him to shoot. For the life of me, I don’t understand how some of this simple stuff is actually so difficult for some – I always wonder that when I see a Chiefs player block a guy in the back on a kick or punt. How hard is this?
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From coaching youth basketball my best rebounders are ALWAYS smaller guys. They have that fight in them because they know without it they can’t compete. It’s rare to see a bigger kid have the aggression to rebound. They get rebounds at a young age just by having more reach and they don’t learn to fight. When you see size and aggression at the youth level it’s special and the kid usually dominates no matter the competetion.
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@Marco I think Scott Pollard was/is KU’s best man for Dennis Rodman comparisons.
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@jhawk7782 Flamboyant - mutton chops and black painted finger nails - check
Tenacious rebounder - check
Limited offense - hmm check
Plus defender with a mean streak - check!
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Reality TV, check
NBA ring, check
Multicolored hair, check
Amazing car, check
Wife named Dawn, check (oh, wait, that is the only similarity between ME and Scott)
Scott isn’t friends with any Korean dictators, though. Wikipedia says the Kings gave him the nickname of “Samurai Scott”, however, so there is an Asian something.
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dylans said:
Is it possible for Self to get back to his roots? A team that locks down on D, runs when provided the opportunity, and values every possession - no turnovers, only shots at the rim or open threes. Not as slow as Virginia, but the point is to frustrate the other team. They get a poor shot late in the clock or jack up a quick shot and then have to wait on Kansas to run their stuff 20-25 seconds of offense before an open shot. Devastating.
The scores would come down, but the March success should go up. We may holler about the lack of threes being shot or the slower
Man, you’re right! How could I forget Pollard? Guess it’s easy to do when you consider just how loaded that Jayhawk team was come his junior-senior season.
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@HighEliteMajor it does change a little bit but that’s where working on rotating and knowing your opponent come into play. I’d never go under a screen on Devonte or Svi but I’d do it everytime on Russell Robinson or Tyshawn Taylor. Guarding the 3 point line can be done without giving up tons of dribble drive you just have to be a good defensive team (watch Virginia most years).
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This thread jumped the shark.
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@kjayhawks Maybe since Coach Bennett arrived in 2014 but not before unless you jump back to the 1920s.
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From kusports.com today - “Everybody just hitting somebody before they run to the glass,” said junior guard Marcus Garrett, when asked how this team can become better at rebounding. “That’s the big thing we’ve been emphasizing lately is actually hitting your man before you go and rebound instead of just running in there.”
@drgnslayr - Did you see this, “actually hitting your man before you go and rebound instead of just running in there.” “Actually”? As if this is something new? You’ve been on this topic for years. Maybe instead of “hitting” their man maybe we could actually get some box outs?
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@HighEliteMajor The HS coach used to laugh at us 7th graders (been awhile I must say) because we’d box the other team out into the stands, literally. The refs didn’t allow that in HS, but as you can imagine we got nearly every rebound.
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@dylans So true. Even the marginal kid could box out. Effort and technique.
Boxing out is quite simply a beautiful art form. Releford was one of the best, I think.
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It really gives me a buzz to read how others understand sealing off the same as me. I thought I was losing my mind and imagining what I used to do and thinking it was a dream…
It’s become such a rarity in college basketball I’m not sure the refs understand it and they will call a foul on someone for using their butt. So much of the physicality has been removed from the game. I liked it better when it was played more like a combination of football and ballet. Now it’s just ballet.
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Boy it sure doesn’t look like this is the case, but if they could execute better he’d damn sure be right.
Self said. “We have got to make people play inside the arc. I mean, that’s got to be our goal defensively is make them play inside the arc, because … even when we’re not making shots, if it becomes a two-point game, we’re going to be hard to deal with.”
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@drgnslayr I’ll have to pay more attention to Moss, high praise-
“In the last two weeks or so, I think he’s sliding his feet pretty well and I think he’s become a pretty solid defensive guard,” Self said of Moss. “One thing that he does do well is that he’s a good block-out guy. Very rarely does he miss a block-out.”
Granny Franny says - ehh he’s just a shooter.
F’em. Lol hope Moss keeps improving. He’s really carving out a nice roll.
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I think Moss has good health now… but it is mentioned for the reason why he is starting to perform better. I don’t know… I think he’s just feeling more integrated into the team now and is feeling more comfortable.
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@drgnslayr I think he is trusting it,hammy, takes a lot of time!
