Just an obversation



  • @jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn’t offer Isaiah Moss. Now we’re looking for a guard.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn’t offer Isaiah Moss. Now we’re looking for a guard.

    The more I heard from Iowa fans the more I can see why the staff passed. Good luck to Arkansas with him.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn’t offer Isaiah Moss. Now we’re looking for a guard.

    Was about Wilson, not Hampton for Moss.



  • @BShark I heard that. I was just wondering why Jordan Poole said that Moss was the toughest defender he faced in the B10.



  • @FarmerJayhawk I’ll bet you’re right. Same situation, though. Although there are lots of detractors regarding Moss. He was highly inconsistent. Not as much as Q, but close. I was trying to give a recent example of what Gerry was alluding to where we chase the big names, and miss out on the lower rated guys.



  • @KUSTEVE RJ is a DB



  • @FarmerJayhawk If Ochai goes pro, then KU will have a pretty good year.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 We were positive we would get RJ, so we didn’t offer Isaiah Moss. Now we’re looking for a guard.

    Exactly - -just to many misses. - -Previous years we still have missed – maybe not like this year , BUT seems like we are missing alot



  • @jayballer73 I wasn’t saying that Moss was a must get by any means, but i’m hoping we don’t get totally skunked. I’m trying to warm up to JW- I think some of my caution has to do with him being so close to RJ, and that’s probably not fair on my part. If he signs with us with the idea he’ll be here for more than a year than we’d be foolish not to have him in light of our current situation at the 2/3.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @jayballer73 I wasn’t saying that Moss was a must get by any means, but i’m hoping we don’t get totally skunked. I’m trying to warm up to JW- I think some of my caution has to do with him being so close to RJ, and that’s probably not fair on my part. If he signs with us with the idea he’ll be here for more than a year than we’d be foolish not to have him in light of our current situation at the 2/3.

    Oh I think there is no doubt that Jalen would be here for more then one year - -quite possible 2-3 yr guy



  • May we please curb the irrational exuberance for Ochai? Perhaps it’s irrational optimism, instead. Ochai’s numbers were very similar to Q’s and all of us seem to agree Q wasn’t likely to help next year’s team enough on offense. Ochai hit 31% from 3 (23/75), while Q hit 34%. They averaged nearly the same amount of minutes per game, 26 for Ochai and 27 minutes for Q. Of course Q played in more game and played the 2, but Ochai’s shooting wasn’t better than Q’s. I like Ochai’s potential, but I’m still waiting for higher and more consistent scoring from him. At this point, I don’t see Ochai as the player to pick up any of the points we are losing from Dedric’s departure. But, I’m hopefully optimistic that Ochai will improve on offense. I also liked that during the tournament, Garrett seemed to understand his role on offense was to drive to the rim and not take the outside shot. I see three pieces of the starting puzzle, Dok, Silvio and Devon. I’m nervously waiting for two other quality starters to emerge.



  • @stoptheflop The huge difference is that Ochai’s performance dip came along with an injury. He was shooting really well before his leg injury. I’m not as high on him as HEM is but I think he’s fine to have as a starter this year when two of your other starters are legit Big 12 POTY and possibly national AA team candidates.

    I don’t think it’s possible to play Garrett, Silvio and Doke all at once without committing what amounts to offensive suicide. So even if Bill adds one of Wilson or Walker I feel Ochai has to start. Garrett definitely has a place in the rotation you just can’t have three non-shooters on the floor. Even if Silvio is hitting out to the ft line it doesn’t work. He’d have to be able to hit threes which I don’t see.



  • @BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!



  • dylans said:

    @BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!

    Great points all around…



  • dylans said:

    @BShark and Ochai is actually athletic. No oops (or ups) for Grimes. And the best thing is Ochai actually wants to be in Lawrence!

    Well Q MIGHT have had the ooops - -we just didn’t see any lmao



  • @BShark I absolutely agree- I am close to HEM’s exuberance over Ochai, but only if he is used right. I keep scratching my head, wondering how we’re going to handle the ball well with a Dot/Ochai/Wilson/Silvio/Doke lineup. I think if we sign Wilson, we’re signing off on a Marcus starting gig, simply due to the need of taking care of the ball. Ochai and JW are 3s, and would likely split the position, leaving MG and perhaps McBride handling the 2. Otherwise, every team is going to pressure our guards. That’s no hitch for DD, but I can’t say the same thing for JW and Ochai. I know Ochai is athletic, but playing the 2, and guarding smaller quicker guys might be a challenge. I tried to glean the ball handling skills in his prior videos, and the best I’ve seen is there were a few times he brought the ball up. That’s why I think a Jaevin Cumberland type 2 is an absolute must.



  • @KUSTEVE I’m fine with Dot being extremely ball dominant.



  • @BShark I am too. I’m talking about all the times when he doesn’t have the ball in his hands, like when we tried to play Wayne at the 2, or when Naadir was pressured by Eastern Kentucky in the NCAA tournament, and we almost lost. What made it hard for teams to double Frank was Devonte. I hope we can find a Devonte for Dotson.



  • I’ve come to appreciate “team ball” and fundamentals as being superior to elite OADs. I look at players like Fred VanVleet and Frank Mason… and I want more of those guys.

    I’ve never been for having a revolving door team but I always thought (like many other’s think) and having one or maybe two OADs sprinkled into a seasoned bunch made sense. I’m starting to question that idea. I’m still not against it, but sort of playing “devil’s advocate.”

    I’m thinking more about what we give up by going after the fool’s gold.



  • @drgnslayr Did you see Van Fleet’s stats against Milwaukee? Incredible production when called on by a 6’0 bench player. I wish Frank could be given a similar opportunity.0_1559523927255_vanfleet.png



  • @approxinfinity

    You can bet Frank will offer up some serious help to the right team, if given the chance.



  • @approxinfinity he’s looked great tonight…



  • @KUSTEVE looks like it (just looking at boxscore). Its crazy to think that if he had hit 4 of 8 instead of 2 of 8 from 3, something he did in the last 3 games against the Bucks, they probably win. Dude’s percentages have been outstanding.



  • @approxinfinity Toronto was playing a box in 1 against Steph, with fred chasing him all over the court. he was outstanding, made a basket almost on his butt ( ala dedric), those stumpy little legs churning like crazy. just a fearless badass of a player.



  • jayballer73 said:

    BShark said:

    justanotherfan said:

    If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

    The guy you recruit that’s ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

    This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

    True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven’t given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

    This is true of every recruit. Its not like if Bill Self walks into the living room of any kid ranked between 30 and 80 that kid is going to immediately sign with KU. We have to recruit that kid, too.

    That kid may want more PT, too. That kid may want to stay closer to home. That kid may want to go to another school, too. Its not like players 30-80 only have one scholarship offer.

    It’s not automatic that we sign whoever we want just by recruiting lower ranked players. We could still strike out. We could end up with only one or two guys instead of three or four. And because those aren’t high end guys, we may not be able to make up for that.



  • That’s a straw man argument. No one says it’s “automatic” or that we might not miss or strike out. Of course, things “could” work out poorly. Of course.

    As with anything else, it’s percentages. Likelihoods. Risk. One of the worst arguments is to compare an absolute when the absolute is not part of the initial argument.

    If we focused on non-OADs through 80ish, the great likelihood is that such a focus will pay allow a greater a pay off in that range than we have seen in the past. How many recruits have been left hanging, waiting on an OAD decision? If we made certain kids the priority and the first choice, instead of a second or third choice – being KU and a blueblood – that would lead to more players in that range. If we limit expenditure of recruiting capital inside the OAD range, that recruiting capital is focused elsewhere. The amount of travel, time, and effort focused on the OAD group is significant.

    It’s not that there isn’t risk. There is. But a focus of energy and resources, and prioritization of certain players, is better the gamble.

    That is particularly true given the alternative. One thing that can’t be ignored or debated – our return on presumed OADs has been pitiful. That, alone, might suggest a different path.



  • justanotherfan said:

    jayballer73 said:

    BShark said:

    justanotherfan said:

    If a top 20 prospect busts, you get Quentin Grimes. If a lower prospect busts, you get Anrio Adams. One guy you can still play every night, and he can come through big in some games. The other is borderline unplayable.

    The guy you recruit that’s ranked 50 something better be legit, otherwise you get nothing.

    This is spot on. There is generally a better floor the higher up the rankings you go.

    True - but you have to get them 1st - you spend the entire yr battling all the other blue bloods and then when you strike out - - - you REALLY strike out. - you have spent your year on upper tier guys and then you lose and by then you haven’t given the middle tier guys a sniff - -now they not gonna give you one.

    This is true of every recruit. Its not like if Bill Self walks into the living room of any kid ranked between 30 and 80 that kid is going to immediately sign with KU. We have to recruit that kid, too.

    That kid may want more PT, too. That kid may want to stay closer to home. That kid may want to go to another school, too. Its not like players 30-80 only have one scholarship offer.

    It’s not automatic that we sign whoever we want just by recruiting lower ranked players. We could still strike out. We could end up with only one or two guys instead of three or four. And because those aren’t high end guys, we may not be able to make up for that.

    And you don’t think we realize this - -but I’ll tell ya what - - we having a lot more success at the middle tier then the higher - hen your spending all your time just to get screwed round like Hampton - -or Ayton that got bought off - -mainwhile back at the ranch you not even sniffing at the middle tier focusing all your time on elite - - Can’t work like that - -proof is in the pudding - -Hell who ever you recruit you have to work - that’s an obvious statement - -but you have to knock 1st TO WORK - we not even acknowledging a lot of these middle tier - that is a MISTAKE



  • I feel like ku missed out on just as many multi-year guys this time around



  • @jayballer73

    Lets do a quick thought experiment here. Let’s say rather than recruiting DeAndre Ayton, we focus on recruits in the range that you outline, so we are looking at Jeremiah Tilmon, Dan Gafford and Jalen Hill. All three of those guys signed in state.

    Tilmon has been solid so far, 8 points, 4 boards as a freshman, 10 and 6 as a sophomore.

    Gafford has been better. 12 and 6, then 17 and 9.

    Hill has been disappointing. He missed his freshman season with the China shoplifting incident. Averaged 4 and 6 this past season.

    So we target all three of those guys. Gafford is the best, but good luck getting him out of state and away from Arkansas.

    Same story with Tilmon and Mizzou.

    Maybe we land Hill, but he’s easily the worst of the three and he likely has very little impact either last season or this past season even if he doesn’t get suspended.

    And that’s assuming we get him. We could just as easily recruit that next group and still strike out because so many of the guys in that range stay regionally close to home/ in state.

    We don’t gain a recruiting advantage by pursuing that range of recruits, and we likely don’t get impact players like you will recruiting the top 20-25.

    We basically become a higher level Iowa State.



  • @HighEliteMajor It’s pitiful because it’s overrated. How does Dook not cut the nets down with 3 freshman lottery picks? How does the Squid out recruit the whole world for a decade, and have 1 national championship to show for it? Why did Bill’s worst years happen when he started the most freshmen? There are two elements that are always going to hold down the effectiveness of a highly ranked freshman - 1) inexperience and 2) motivation. In my books, we’ve had 1 great OAD, a few decent OADS, and more than our share of of overrated, immature, entitled kids. I use the Isaiah Moss example again … ( please don’t tell me how lucky we are not to have got him. he would’ve been better than what we got with RJ). Here you have a senior, who averaged more points than Q in less minutes, and had a higher 3 point shooting percent than anyone on our team ( considering we are almost certain to start a guy at the 2 who averaged 24.5% from 3 last year ). This guy had 3 years experience in the B10, and he visited us, and we didn’t offer him. We passed.

    Experience wins championships. Experience and dedication to the team, to the program is what cuts the nets down. Tech brought in 2 outstanding seniors from other programs, and almost cut down the nets. The last two years, our best players in the tournament ( Dedric/Malik ) both came to the table with experience and skills. Now, it doesn’t work every time ( Charlie/KJ ), but it works enough that a team that has to try to recruit in Lubbock, Tx made the national championship game after losing 5 seniors the year before. Contrast that with the recruiting fiasco that will forever be known as the " RJ Circus".



  • @justanotherfan and no thanks to that.

    Overall I’m fine with Bill’s approach, there are reasons this year went way south. Last year was fantastic how quickly some forget.



  • The issue is not recruiting outside of the top 20. The issue is identifying guys that are presumed OADs. That may not be a fixed number each year. Different classes mean different things. There might be 8 presumed OADS one year, and 15 the next. And the #20 kid might be a presumed OAD and the #12 kid not.

    I chuckle at the idea that KU, with Bill Self as the coach, focusing on non-presumed OADs, could be akin to Iowa St. Now, lose coach Self? That’s a different deal.

    So, tell me, what presumed OAD has made a transformational difference in our outcome at KU since Self has been here – a difference that really meant something?

    I suggest only one – Josh Jackson. But even with that, we only made the EE.

    It’s just beyond me why those results cause such recruiting effort over multiple years.



  • I’m guessing for every OAD target we go after we are losing out on 10 players from 20-100.

    I’ve heard the argument before that if we don’t go after and get some Top-10 guys then the group right below that won’t be interested either because they see themselves as Top-10. I can see a problem here if we don’t structure it right. The right structure is to lead the country in development. End of story. The players that want to work their rears off and get a lot better will be attracted to our program. The players that are “sniffing their own glue” won’t be attracted and that is a great thing! No more prima donnas in our program!

    Our program isn’t really quite at a level where we can go out and “truckload” in Top 10 recruits at every position anyways. We are committed to a direction where we don’t quite have what it takes, like East Coast exposure and a bigger media market. The tradition of KU basketball, and the quality of Self, can only make up so much ground.

    How do we make up the difference? Illegal booster payments?

    We are swimming in waters full of sharks when we could leave the ocean for our own private exclusive pool… the very best development D1 program in America! We could do it! It will require some staff changes and a restructuring in some areas… but we could do it and we could quickly gain the right reputation.



  • I think there’s to many variables to decide if the OAD’s have helped. If Embiid would have been healthy, if josh wouldn’t have got in trouble, big 12 tourney champs… if he wouldn’t have got that damn foul and had to sit. So many presumed OAD’s aren’t OAD’s. Malik wasn’t. He should’ve come here first. There’s getting to be more of those. I don’t even know most of them, revolving door at Kentucky. It’s funny the presumed OAD’s are transferring if the OAD thing doesn’t work out. Quinerly and grimes leaving great coaches. I guess I don’t really have a pt, just think you can’t place to much on player rankings.



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    The issue is not recruiting outside of the top 20. The issue is identifying guys that are presumed OADs. That may not be a fixed number each year. Different classes mean different things. There might be 8 presumed OADS one year, and 15 the next. And the #20 kid might be a presumed OAD and the #12 kid not.

    I chuckle at the idea that KU, with Bill Self as the coach, focusing on non-presumed OADs, could be akin to Iowa St. Now, lose coach Self? That’s a different deal.

    So, tell me, what presumed OAD has made a transformational difference in our outcome at KU since Self has been here – a difference that really meant something?

    I suggest only one – Josh Jackson. But even with that, we only made the EE.

    It’s just beyond me why those results cause such recruiting effort over multiple years.

    It increasingly is about recruiting outside the top 20, since freshmen are leaving for professional opportunities at higher rates. I’m of the mind that a mix of OAD and multi-year players is the best formula for KU. The risk being if you stick to recruiting only multi-year guys and they go supernova like Ben you’re stuck. The transition from 2014 to 2015 would’ve been brutal had we not landed Wayne (a presumed OAD) and Wiggins. We would’ve started Tharpe, Conner, Andrew White, Perry Ellis, and Tarik Black. Woof.

    Like you said, it’s about risk and planning that risk across years. With a presumed one and done, you bake in the assumption they leave after a year. If not, a bonus! But if a multi-year guy does blow up and leaves before you think and you only recruit guys who are multi-year and may not be ready, you’re in a heap of trouble unless you find the right fit as a transfer. It’s not necessarily just freshmen, but UVA and Nova are good examples. UVA will take a big step back next year after losing a lot of guys they expected to have for 4 years. Same with Nova and Donte.

    The bust rate on guys ranked 20 and beyond is also a lot higher. Quite a few never live up to their ranking or become more than bit players on good teams, like Conner. OAD types inside the top 20 bust at a lot lower rate. So it’s not a risk-free proposition to recruit non-OAD type guys. It’s the type of risk you’re willing to take. Sign me up for high floor OAD’s with competition from multi-year guys. If they don’t develop, they leave.



  • We were close to losing d dot! Scary!



  • As an aside, every time I see the title of this thread, I marvel at it. “OBVERSATION” is a great title for “OBSERVATION + CONVERSATION”. Well done, Jayballer! Well done!



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    We were close to losing d dot! Scary!

    Our player retention hasn’t been too great lately. Sometimes it’s luck, like Rush returning. Self probably doesn’t have a title w/o that happening.

    Like @KUSTEVE said experience matters a lot.



  • @BShark seems like more players don’t give a rip where they go, just get in a year and get out. Like Alabama, Mississippi state. Etc.



  • Crimsonorblue22 said:

    @BShark seems like more players don’t give a rip where they go, just get in a year and get out. Like Alabama, Mississippi state. Etc.

    Roy manages to keep guys around. K is the king of it when he needs it done.

    Kids definitely want to play. Have to identify the kids that might want to stick around. Last two classes have been good so far tbh. Easy to say now but Dotson was expected to stay 2 years.



  • HighEliteMajor said:

    That’s a straw man argument. No one says it’s “automatic” or that we might not miss or strike out. Of course, things “could” work out poorly. Of course.

    As with anything else, it’s percentages. Likelihoods. Risk. One of the worst arguments is to compare an absolute when the absolute is not part of the initial argument.

    If we focused on non-OADs through 80ish, the great likelihood is that such a focus will pay allow a greater a pay off in that range than we have seen in the past. How many recruits have been left hanging, waiting on an OAD decision? If we made certain kids the priority and the first choice, instead of a second or third choice – being KU and a blueblood – that would lead to more players in that range. If we limit expenditure of recruiting capital inside the OAD range, that recruiting capital is focused elsewhere. The amount of travel, time, and effort focused on the OAD group is significant.

    It’s not that there isn’t risk. There is. But a focus of energy and resources, and prioritization of certain players, is better the gamble.

    That is particularly true given the alternative. One thing that can’t be ignored or debated – our return on presumed OADs has been pitiful. That, alone, might suggest a different path.

    Couldn’t of said it better. That’s what I’ve been trying to at least say. I’m not saying we just quit recruiting elite players - -what I AM saying is I don’t think we are giving ENOUGH time to like HighElite is saying -enough time to the middle tier those 3-4 yr possibly - -and again like others are saying we have been by passing - -the 4–90 players only to try to come in very late and try to get them to come by then supposedly just being overwhelmed by our name only b- -like was said we even have to recruit these players - it’s not getting done - -or at least strong enough.

    These guys being pushed back to 2-3-4th options - -and when we fail and get used and fail again- - -THEN and it seems ONLY THEN do we try to push for these kids - -and were gonna learn - -one way or another we will learn -that these kids - -some take offense to that.

    Kinda like OH NOW I’m good enough - - -NOW you want me - - ummm no thanks - -these kids aren’t stupid - they wants to play for people that really want them - -not some last ditch panic recruitment. - We need to be recruiting these types just as hard - -instead of using them as possibly fall back - it’s just not getting done



  • BShark said:

    I feel like ku missed out on just as many multi-year guys this time around

    why you think that is?



  • @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.



  • justanotherfan said:

    @jayballer73

    Lets do a quick thought experiment here. Let’s say rather than recruiting DeAndre Ayton, we focus on recruits in the range that you outline, so we are looking at Jeremiah Tilmon, Dan Gafford and Jalen Hill. All three of those guys signed in state.

    Tilmon has been solid so far, 8 points, 4 boards as a freshman, 10 and 6 as a sophomore.

    Gafford has been better. 12 and 6, then 17 and 9.

    Hill has been disappointing. He missed his freshman season with the China shoplifting incident. Averaged 4 and 6 this past season.

    So we target all three of those guys. Gafford is the best, but good luck getting him out of state and away from Arkansas.

    Same story with Tilmon and Mizzou.

    Maybe we land Hill, but he’s easily the worst of the three and he likely has very little impact either last season or this past season even if he doesn’t get suspended.

    And that’s assuming we get him. We could just as easily recruit that next group and still strike out because so many of the guys in that range stay regionally close to home/ in state.

    We don’t gain a recruiting advantage by pursuing that range of recruits, and we likely don’t get impact players like you will recruiting the top 20-25.

    We basically become a higher level Iowa State.

    Thanks I’m done - -no need to continue - -, if you refer to posts such as BShark saying we missed out on just as many of the lower tier this year - just like I ask him - -I’ll ask you- -why you think that is? --Because 80 % of it is these players are getting tired of being called upon as option 3-4-5-6 - -how many OTHER players did we try to land before we ended up as some say scratching the bottom - -and we misses - -these kids have gotten to the point of just saying enough is enough - To many people seem to think these middle to lower recruits will piss themselves if KU’s name is even mentioned about recruiting them - News Flash that Boat has done sailed. - -They feel they deserve the same type of recruitment as any other - and why shouldn’t they? - - -Does Mitch come to mind? - look at him. - -He by far is not elite. - But I’ll take Mitch any day - -he loves the school - -bust his ass every time out - -he isn’t one of these OAD’S bitches that only play defense when they feel like it- - -Refer to Quentin Grimes - - LaGerald Vick - and countless others - -How many of these OAD’S do you see giving their body up diving for the loose Balls? - -or how about one of these precious shit’s trying to take a charge? - That’s Mitch - you know him - -a guy that is willing to do whatever it takes - -to get the TEAM win.

    Or I’ll take Ochai anyday - -guys that are will to commit 100 % day in - - day out - thing is we are starting to lose out on these types of players - - WHY ? - -already told you. - OAD’S are fine the whole thing is - -we need to put more effort to recruiting the 40-50-60 type ranked - -you can find some hidden treasures - -say like oh I DUNNO how about a Frank Mason - -OR - -Devonte Graham - - what about McBride , ya we got him - -he will be fine - -I’ll take him - the quality player, - but if you don’t try to recuit these guy until option b-c-d-e - it is gonna come back and bit you right square in the ass.



  • KUSTEVE said:

    @HighEliteMajor It’s pitiful because it’s overrated. How does Dook not cut the nets down with 3 freshman lottery picks? How does the Squid out recruit the whole world for a decade, and have 1 national championship to show for it? Why did Bill’s worst years happen when he started the most freshmen? There are two elements that are always going to hold down the effectiveness of a highly ranked freshman - 1) inexperience and 2) motivation. In my books, we’ve had 1 great OAD, a few decent OADS, and more than our share of of overrated, immature, entitled kids. I use the Isaiah Moss example again … ( please don’t tell me how lucky we are not to have got him. he would’ve been better than what we got with RJ). Here you have a senior, who averaged more points than Q in less minutes, and had a higher 3 point shooting percent than anyone on our team ( considering we are almost certain to start a guy at the 2 who averaged 24.5% from 3 last year ). This guy had 3 years experience in the B10, and he visited us, and we didn’t offer him. We passed.

    Experience wins championships. Experience and dedication to the team, to the program is what cuts the nets down. Tech brought in 2 outstanding seniors from other programs, and almost cut down the nets. The last two years, our best players in the tournament ( Dedric/Malik ) both came to the table with experience and skills. Now, it doesn’t work every time ( Charlie/KJ ), but it works enough that a team that has to try to recruit in Lubbock, Tx made the national championship game after losing 5 seniors the year before. Contrast that with the recruiting fiasco that will forever be known as the " RJ Circus".

    Oh but we could offer Isaiah right? - -cause we were to focused on RJ - -ya right - -we see where that got us huh? - BURNED - - -AGAIN. - - remind me again where did Isaiah sign again? - - not here right? - -and where did the kid that you bypass Isaiah for where did he sign again - - -BINGO - - NOT HERE - -these kids are not waiting anymore. - -So instead of landing that really solid player with experience - -we get ZELCH - again. - -we have got to just start doing better at recruiter the -these middle tier kids - one more time listen very closely to what I’m saying I’m not saying quit recruiting the OAD’s - all I’m saying is got to better with these kids a little further down the line GEEZ



  • Why don’t we put an end to all the recruiting BS (and arguments)?

    Let’s initiate a High School draft. The crappiest college gets first pick. The National Champ gets last pick. Then the team with the best coach wins the damn super bowl seemingly every other year…wait. Sorry - got off track. But the principal is the same.



  • BShark said:

    @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.

    sure didn’t hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -



  • @jayballer73 Maybe Ochai committed to KU because in part KU is close to where his family is at (KC?). Also, we have talked about the fail rate of these players. Do we really trust that Self and his staff have great ability to recognize only the multi-year lower ranked players that will be awesome?

    Going off Self’s recruits at KU, and not counting any player that stayed 3-4 years but was highly ranked. So, basically all 5 stars are out, because why include them in this exercise when they don’t fit.

    Great: Mason, Graham, Morris, Morris

    Average: Releford, Brady, Reed, Tyshawn

    Uh: Tharpe, Jamari, Lucas, Greene, Vick

    TO BE DETERMINED: Mitch, Garrett, Ochai and Dave.

    Lower rated players that ran away/didn’t contribute much: Tyrone Appleton, Mario Little, Quintrell Thomas, Royce Woolridge, Peters, White, Adams, Frankamp

    Okay I lied…

    5*/top rated players that stayed awhile: Sherron, Chalmers, Rush, Aldrich, TRob, Perry, Selden, Udoka, Dotson

    Svi is an interesting case. The one site that actually rated him had him as a 5*. Anyway I wasn’t sure where to put him, so I abstained from categorizing him for this.

    Note that our best two players on the upcoming team, are five stars that are a SO and SR respectively.

    I’m going to take the very controversial stance that talent and player retention matter.



  • jayballer73 said:

    BShark said:

    @jayballer73 FBI and looming NCAA uncertainty sure didn’t help.

    sure didn’t hurt Arizona OR Louisville as bad - -sure they dropped some but they rebounded - -

    Well they had one off year. KU has had one off year, let’s see what happens in 2020? Maybe KU bounces back like they did now that Self has stated he is LOCKED in to KU (firmly believe rumors of Self leaving hurt with JRE).



  • @jayballer73 If Isaiah Moss couldn’t handle Fran, he would have snapped under Bill imo.


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