Question: What do YOU want KU to do?
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@BShark I definitely would and have been one of those that would have defended the program for clean. And I think most would have. I saw as you said very few before hand that believed or at least admitted maybe… to this what I call new narrative
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I still think HCBS is Clean? Why not? If it’s what it takes to be the best? If there was indeed wrong doing on his part. The narrative hasn’t really changed.
The only thing that has changed is the KU fan base mindset. So many are starting to see what it takes to stay at the top.
Not one KU fan would defend HCBS if he couldn’t win the Big 12 Conference more than once in a three year period. Or even worse didn’t even make the tournament.
No one KU fan would be like yea but he runs a clean program. Not one.
The evidence that is being put out isn’t a KU thing. It’s a College Basketball thing. So why bash a great Coach for doing what all us KU fans want. A winner.
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It’s because you don’t go around and say, “yeah we’re totally cheating lol” on a public forum when there’s no concrete information otherwise.
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@DoubleDD ya that’s completely not the point. I didn’t see you nor anyone else saying that type of thing before. Even though I admit there were probably a few that were saying the same then as now. Largely… Meaning for most fans. The narrative has suddenly changed. Plain and simple.
And you cant count me as 1 fan who will still be in support if we lose and are
above board while most others aren’t. There may not be alot. But there’s for damn sure 1.
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cragarhawk said:
@DoubleDD ya that’s completely not the point. I didn’t see you nor anyone else saying that type of thing before. Even though I admit there were probably a few that were saying the same then as now. Largely… Meaning for most fans. The narrative has suddenly changed. Plain and simple.
And you cant count me as 1 fan who will still be in support if we lose and are
above board while most others aren’t. There may not be alot. But there’s for damn sure 1.It doesn’t matter. Wait for the other trials and lets see if you still feel the same way?
Shit we should be thanking HCBS doing everything in his power to keep KU at the top.
Jesus how many players has he sit on the bench?
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FarmerJayhawk said:
It’s because you don’t go around and say, “yeah we’re totally cheating lol” on a public forum when there’s no concrete information otherwise.
You nailed it
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I think many of us are expressing too much fear… and that fear turns to attacks and accusations. Let’s just let this play out.
I question why our coaching staff has any contact with shoecos. Why? Because no matter what, we will always look bad. It will always smell of conspiracy.
If this was the old west… Self and Co. would already be dangling from a rope. No trial.
We good? Ooops… I’m guilty now.
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@drgnslayr You know why it smells of a conspiracy? Because it is a conspiracy.
Bill Self could have done a press conference already and said, “We don’t cheat, we haven’t taken part in it, I’ve confirmed with our staff, we don’t pay players, and we don’t use or conspire with third parties to pay players.”
I want to hear from Bill Self.
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@HighEliteMajor The big difference is he is a KU fan, so he probably is hoping for the best. You’re a KU critic, so you’re hoping for the worst.
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@KUSTEVE I think you are wrong on that.
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@Crimsonorblue22 I know you’re disappointed. But you love KU. You posted 600 comments when we won the B12 last year, won the B12 tournament, and made it to the Final Four. You posted when Grimes played, and Bill coached the USA under 18 Olympics. You posted during our summer scrimmages. You posted about our crummy football team. You posted when we got a new AD. You watched every second of Late Night. Now…lets say…If you had never posted after calling one of our players a 'cancer" last year…never made one comment about us making it to the Final Four, never gave your opinion about who was going to start, and were completely AWOL for EVERYTHING …late night…summer scrimmages…recruiting… the whole she-bang …until some stupid bullshit came up that makes us look bad, and you about broke your fingers wringing your hands talking about how “ashamed” you were, and you had spent the last 5 years writing negative articles about our team, our coach, our players, and our accomplishments, then I would be calling bullshit on you, too. But you’re not on here playing some stupid head game- you’re just like me…you love KU. So, don’t get suckered in - a dead clock is right twice a day. We will overcome this, and we will be stronger for it at some point.
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At this time the only allegation against Coach Self (and KT) are statements that were not accepted as evidence during the trial and stated by the defense attorney during his closing argument and while he was not under oath and done solely for the benefit of his client and it is contrary to all testimony given by witnesses under oath.
I don’t believe it would help at all to have a press conference to deny wholly unproved allegations and all it would do is give credence to the allegations.
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@JayHawkFanToo When I agree with you on something, are we both obligated to scurry home and call NASA to make sure the Earth is still revolving properly so we can expect a normal sunrise?
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Gassnola has ready plead guilty to the charges against him. He has no reason to cover anything up at this point. He’s the one cooperating the most and telling all. Gatto and Dawkins both plead not guilty to the charges against them. They are looking for anyone to to scapegoat to make themselves look innocent and have chosen the flagship school of Adidas basketball.
Do I think Bill Self is totally innocent in this? No, he’s always been at least aware of players getting paid and other benefits. He’s not naive of that. He’s also smart enough to use coded language that can left open to interpretation so there is plausible deniability if the NCAA starts snooping.
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KUSTEVE said:
@Crimsonorblue22 I know you’re disappointed. But you love KU. You posted 600 comments when we won the B12 last year, won the B12 tournament, and made it to the Final Four. You posted when Grimes played, and Bill coached the USA under 18 Olympics. You posted during our summer scrimmages. You posted about our crummy football team. You posted when we got a new AD. You watched every second of Late Night. Now…lets say…If you had never posted after calling one of our players a 'cancer" last year…never made one comment about us making it to the Final Four, never gave your opinion about who was going to start, and were completely AWOL for EVERYTHING …late night…summer scrimmages…recruiting… the whole she-bang …until some stupid bullshit came up that makes us look bad, and you about broke your fingers wringing your hands talking about how “ashamed” you were, and you had spent the last 5 years writing negative articles about our team, our coach, our players, and our accomplishments, then I would be calling bullshit on you, too. But you’re not on here playing some stupid head game- you’re just like me…you love KU. So, don’t get suckered in - a dead clock is right twice a day. We will overcome this, and we will be stronger for it at some point.
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Let’s call it a new beginning.
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I do find the Venn diagram of people who simultaneously are mad at Self for maybe playing fast and loose with NCAA rules and not recruiting well enough humorous.
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FarmerJayhawk said:
I do find the Venn diagram of people who simultaneously are mad at Self for maybe playing fast and loose with NCAA rules and not recruiting well enough humorous.
Self is a good recruiter and has good guys on the staff. The turmoil and uncertainty could cause problems though, like it did temporarily for Arizona and Louisville but I also fully expect Self and co to bounce back strong in recruiting once the crap is done.
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BShark said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
I do find the Venn diagram of people who simultaneously are mad at Self for maybe playing fast and loose with NCAA rules and not recruiting well enough humorous.
Self is a good recruiter and has good guys on the staff. The turmoil and uncertainty could cause problems though, like it did temporarily for Arizona and Louisville but I also fully expect Self and co to bounce back strong in recruiting once the crap is done.
Talking retrospectively. Like the early 2010’s classes were garbage but OH NO SELF HAS TO BE A SAINT
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FarmerJayhawk said:
BShark said:
FarmerJayhawk said:
I do find the Venn diagram of people who simultaneously are mad at Self for maybe playing fast and loose with NCAA rules and not recruiting well enough humorous.
Self is a good recruiter and has good guys on the staff. The turmoil and uncertainty could cause problems though, like it did temporarily for Arizona and Louisville but I also fully expect Self and co to bounce back strong in recruiting once the crap is done.
Talking retrospectively. Like the early 2010’s classes were garbage but OH NO SELF HAS TO BE A SAINT
Oh yeah for sure, those people are goofs. You get recruiting classes like Wisconsin when you are clean.
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@FarmerJayhawk Very good point.
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The Venn diagram comment is without merit, in my opinion.
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If what folks say is true, that all high level CBB is crooked, then everyone is on the same playing field. Our crooked guy is just competing. Thus any recruiting complaints are relative.
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If what folks say is NOT true, and all high level CBB is NOT crooked, then our guy, who is apparently crooked, should be landing better classes given the crookedness (money) in his corner.
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If what folks say is NOT true, and NO high level CBB programs are crooked, then like point #1, everyone is on the same playing field. Our guy is just competing with other clean programs. Thus any recruiting complaints are relative.
Here’s what I think MAY be true. Self may not have led the way with others into crookedness. I think the evidence shows that, possibly, he switched course and descended into crookedness - referencing some weaker KU recruiting classes and then landing Wiggins. (this is a theory, to those prone to lash out with anger – you know, a discussion point). I know some think the same game was played back to and before our NC season. I don’t know.
Further, the retrospective reference to recruiting classes vs. Self being a saint, doesn’t make sense to me. So it’s inconsistent to have questioned the quality of our recruiting classes in the past while at the same time wanting our coach to be clean when this garbage comes out?
I don’t really have dog in the recruiting class fight because I’ve been one who has wanted to abandon the chase for the OADs, and was more accepting of lower ranked players.
There was a point in time I mentioned that Bill Self was selling his soul for OADs. Some different context, of course. But if Self REACTED and CHANGED based on what others were doing (perhaps the Calipari thing at UK; perhaps getting beat in the NC game by UK) – by conspiring with Adidas to pay players – that would make sense to me in this timeline.
Was Wiggins the first guy?
And if you get recruiting classes like Wisconsin, the got to the NC game – when everyone was supposedly crooked.
This is why strict enforcement is the best path for KU. If Self is such a good recruiter, and we have the Kansas brand, wouldn’t that make us even more attractive – on an even playing field?
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Pretty hard to look at the 06-08 rosters and think Self might have been totally clean before the Wiggins class.
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I wonder if it is more likely that coaches who tried to restrict transfers were running totally clean programs. Or, vice versa, if coaches with a complete willingness to allow transfers were more likely to have some shady stuff. It seems that a player who isn’t being allowed to play much or transfer might be more willing to blow the whistle.
This incentive has changed somewhat with the gradual adoption of looser NCAA rules.
But I wonder if violations are indeed more widespread than we would hope. After all, why don’t we see players “anonomously” ratting out compensated players on their biggest rivals?
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@BShark What would explain how a team with the recruiting you refer to, coming off of a NC, would then have recruiting issues?
@mayjay Good points. I had made the point as well regarding a distinct lack of info related to the corruption. Something I would expect (south of the mafia). Part of the evidence against widespread corruption is the lack of information suggesting the same. I would assume more chatter. You would think that all DeSousa would have to do, to get a full release from KU is suggest he might blow the whistle. Posture that if he can’t play elsewhere he doesn’t care if he’s ineligible then. Or that the dad of the kid not getting the “bag of money” might cozy up to some willing reporter. Or a girlfriend that knows. People can’t keep their mouths shut and social media makes that even more obvious.
Information is negotiating leverage.
Further, why would “Fenny” have to give back the UA money? What are they going to do? Why would Adidas feel it needed to help pay back UA?
Perhaps it’s the code of conduct. Er, Mafia like. Integrity within corruption.
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As you know, most top recruits know each other well and even recruit each other. Sometimes they play together in HS, national teams, tournaments or more often than not in the infamous AAU circuit.
Recruits talk to each other and know what it is going on and what the going rates are. Preston was ranked anywhere from 10 to 20 and if he commanded $90K, I find it hard to believe that the higher ranked recruits would play elsewhere for less or even no money. Recruits seem to flock to UK and Duke knowing that there are players ahead of them and they could be the team’s star elsewhere at another elite program and yet they continue going there even when other programs have equally good coaches and facilities…what explanation other than money could there be?
Having said that, I believe that every coach generally knows whats is going on and most maintain a distance from the process to have plausible deniability. Part of the sponsorship package programs sign with apparel firms is the expectation that recruits will be steered to the program with no school formal involvement. Basically it is…I don’t want to know what you do and don’t tell me and and I will just look the other way and pretend I don’t know what is going on.
I imagine most conversations go like this:
- Shoeco XXX: Hello Coach YYY, we have a couple of players Z1 and Z2 in our AAU teams, would your program be interested?
- Coach YYY: Of course we would be interested…
- Shoeco XXX: let’s see what we can do.
- Coach YYY: Much appreciated
or…
- Coach YYY, Hello Shoeco XXX. Are you familiar with players Z1 and Z2? I believe they play in AAU teams sponsored by you…
- Shoeco XXX: Of course we are familiar with them, interested?
- Coach YYY: Very much, we would like to have them join our program.
- Shoeco XXX: let’s see what we can do.
- Coach YYY: Your help is always appreciated, this is why we have this fat contract with your firm.
The Occam’s razor principle of problem solving states that when presented with several solution the simplest one with the least assumptions tends to be the correct one. In this case, the approach presented above appears to be the simplest and easiest to explain.
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@HighEliteMajor I have actually heard that Self got tired of recruiting for awhile. So it’s possible that those 11 and 12 classes were mostly clean, and had academic risks.
But I’m saying Julian, Sherron, Arthur, Rush, Cole etc… Not clean recruitments.
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Roy wasn’t a good recruiter at Kansas. His classes would hinge on one high profile guy signing and he’d push off everyone else until he did. Many times his whole class would fall apart while waiting and he’d be in scramble mode late.
Bill has always been a better recruiter than Roy. I assumed most of the recruitment was above board with a few outliers that didn’t sit well with me. Preston’s quick commit when Ayton disappeared for one. Wright and Arthur are a couple more possibly Shady signings. It’s all a bit disappointing, but if Bill’s initial comments are true (wants it all exposed/cleaned up) then hopefully he really was completely hands off. Maybe Bill didn’t know the means with which Adidas was “recruiting” for him. Possibly he didn’t know, but it doesn’t seem likely that is the case today.
Tomorrow is a new day. I’ve enjoyed the good times. I’ve really enjoyed the great times! And I’ll stand by Bill’s side while this storm is weathered. I’m stil not convinced BIll was directly involved at this point. I do think he was well aware of how to recruit thru using other forms of payment- jobs and housing. And I imagine he rationalized it as a way of getting the parents into the same town as their kids. That’s how I see it…though I suppose it’s not allowed.
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HighEliteMajor said:
@drgnslayr You know why it smells of a conspiracy? Because it is a conspiracy.
Bill Self could have done a press conference already and said, “We don’t cheat, we haven’t taken part in it, I’ve confirmed with our staff, we don’t pay players, and we don’t use or conspire with third parties to pay players.”
I want to hear from Bill Self.
I want to hear from Bill, too. He said he wasn’t going to respond until the trial was completed.
I agree with you that the optics here look pretty darn convincing. And one of the areas I always appreciated in Bill and Company was their efforts to control optics.
Unless the NCAA makes a major overhaul, I just see us continuing to have these issues if we are going to stay going for that top “tier of trouble!”
Remember when we didn’t sign any of that top shelf talent? We were all complaining… There just isn’t any good answers here. Talented kids are connected to family that would like to cash in on their talents.
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@drgnslayr I do think there is a good answer. It’s simple and easy. Don’t cheat. If I know we’re clean, and we fail to land top talent because others cheat, I can live with that. I just would like to have that information. If KU (Self, AD, Administration) has a gripe with the NCAA, then it’s incumbent on them to deal with that, and to do so publicly if necessary.
I am very hopeful that hearing from Bill Self will steer this in the right direction. This can be a moment of leadership at its best.
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HighEliteMajor said:
This can be a moment of leadership at its best.
You are spot on!
I am liking what I’ve heard out of Bill now, but this is an ongoing situation and won’t be the last time Bill comments on this.
I am also hopeful that Bill and his staff, and all through the Kansas administration there will be new policies set forth to prevent any kind of contact with shoeco employees in the future regarding players and recruitment.
This is the perfect situation where optics alone damage the Kansas brand.
I know this isn’t exactly what you want to hear out of me. But it is the optics right now driving public sentiment and creating a less-than-positive environment around everything Kansas.
What I’m not saying here is that we need to coverup unethical practices. We need to not be involved in unethical practices, including violations of NCAA rules as well as federal and state laws.
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Self said last night at his presser that he is not going to talk about this for the rest of the season. There are things that he still can not talk about until this whole thing is over. that could literally be years. By then nobody will care, and he still probably will not comment on it.
Also when asked last night if Self thought it was OK for coaches to have contact with people like Gassanola he literally laughed at the absurdity of the question. So if you are looking for policies that ban that you are going to be very disappointed. Like Self said it is ridiculous to say who a coach can and can not talk too. If you say coaches can not talk to shoe execs then do you also say they can not talk to handlers, financial planners, etc… That is not going to happen.
As Self also said shoe companies have influence over ALL levels of basketball. Whether people like it or not it plays a huge role in a lot of different aspects of the game. It would be dumb for Self not too have good relationships with not just Adidas execs, but execs from NIke, UA, and now Puma.
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I’m not saying we shouldn’t have good relationships with any or all of the shoecos.
But when it comes to discussions concerning recruits, it is hard to get away from whether or not those discussions help steer the recruits. Then we quickly get into areas relating to NCAA infractions and can also connect us to situations involving federal crimes.
My question: Is it really necessary for those discussions to exist? If the answer is “yes” relating to actually landing recruits, isn’t that some form of conspiracy?
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@drgnslayr You didn’t direct it to me but I want to just ask–how do you have regular contact with, or chances to watch, kids who are playing for shoe-sponsored AAU coaches and teams and leagues, and how do you get info about the kids from those coaches, without having contact with the shoe companies’ representatives?
