Vick moves on. Forgoes Sr Year
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I do think KU gets Langford. If not I would expect a grad transfer guard. Possibly one that hasn’t announced intent to grad transfer yet. Langford is the much more likely scenario though imo.
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Ryan thinks Doke will be leaving as well unless his injury throws a wrench into that
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@BeddieKU23 Feels about 60/40 imo
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These years worry me, everyone’s already talking about greatness and whatnot. Let’s see how these guys play and play together next season before we claim the title. 2014 with Wigs and Joel come to mind with this talk and Self has under preformed with his most talented teams IMO.
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@kjayhawks Which title? I’m claiming the Big 12 title already.
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kjayhawks said:
These years worry me, everyone’s already talking about greatness and whatnot. Let’s see how these guys play and play together next season before we claim the title. 2014 with Wigs and Joel come to mind with this talk and Self has under preformed with his most talented teams IMO.
Huge problem with 2014: Naadir Tharpe.
Secondary problems: Wiggins introverted/protecting the merchandise, Embiid’s injury.
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@BShark I agree, I’m just saying lets not count our chickens before they hatch.
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@kjayhawks I don’t think KU by any means is the runaway title favorite for next year. Still far too early. UK and Nova both could have absolutely FILTHY rosters.
Still, it’s a lot of talent for Self. More options/talent than have been available recently so it’s more fun to talk about possible line-ups and get excited.
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Are any of the folks here business owners? Are you ok with interviewing dozens (or more) applicants to find the best, brightest and most qualified for the jobs you have currently open? Do you ever get frustrated when you hire someone who is a perfect fit for your company and has the potential to make your place more successful - and they leave after one year?
Just wondered.
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@kjayhawks I think it is ok to have very high expectations for this team. Maybe not NC, but anything less than a Conference Championship and EE is a complete failure. FF is my expectations, and NC would be amazing no matter what year it happens.
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@nuleafjhawk In that situation are you barely paying them whereas the next job they are jumping too makes them millions? Silly comparison.
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@nuleafjhawk Not frustrating. If they are a perfect fit and elevated your business, you should just be happy they worked there even if it was just for a year.
If people are leaving after just one year, than either you are, one, developing them very well and they are taking a big step forward when they leave. Or, two, you aren’t providing enough for them, so they leave.
Are you not more frustrated when you interview a dozen or so people and the one you pick doesn’t live up to expectations for an extended period of time and it actually hampers your entire company?
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@nuleafjhawk Perhaps a better way to look at it … we bring in possible one year player with our eyes wide open. We know this going into the interview. We could bypass such issues and approach things as other high level programs do, and skip the presumed OADs. So it appears we actually want this hassle. If not, recruit a different tier of player.
Right now, sure, I would have rather had a #20 - 65 player in the bag as opposed to the presumed OAD. But we couldn’t get that guy in the bag in the fall with Newman and Vick uncertainty. It was just the lay of the land. Now, what’s the best move? Bag Langford and maybe we recruit to that position and land three year guy that knows the spot is opening up.
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@HighEliteMajor We already landed the 3 year replacement. Langford is icing on cake at this point.
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nuleafjhawk said:
Are any of the folks here business owners? Are you ok with interviewing dozens (or more) applicants to find the best, brightest and most qualified for the jobs you have currently open? Do you ever get frustrated when you hire someone who is a perfect fit for your company and has the potential to make your place more successful - and they leave after one year?
Just wondered.
Every year buddy. I wish all the best interns would come back, but few do. (And that’s a better comparison to college ball than a full time employee imho since both are in college. ) I’m happy for the successful ones…and happy to see some of the others leave as well.
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@nuleafjhawk I’m still missing Releford, trob, Frank and I’m gonna really miss DG. I get so attached to these great guys that mean so much to KU. Doesn’t matter how long, I still like a lot of them even if they leave early. Ben Mac needed to feed his family, he’s also one of my favs. He loved school! He probably never had it so good!
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@BShark As you just resorted to saying I made a silly comparison - You just asked a question you don’t know the answer to. That’s silly.
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It depends what I am hiring for.
If I am hiring entry level positions, I don’t expect talented people to stay in those positions very long. Most very talented people are also ambitious enough that once they outgrow that position, they will move on to a position that is more in line with their abilities.
If I am hiring for mid and upper management, I expect more of a long term commitment, but that comes with offering more as well - higher salary, more authority, more benefits, etc.
CBB is the equivalent of the entry level position. Once these guys show that they can handle that position, they are going to move to the higher, more demanding position because college can’t offer them that. Asking a potential OAD to stay is like asking a person with CEO talent to remain in the mailroom. Eventually, they will just walk out because their talent dictates it.
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@nuleafjhawk The question was rhetorical.
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Anyone else see the full comments from Vick’s mom?
“He played for one of the greatest teams there is. Now it’s time for him to forward. You can’t go to a place and stay. You go, handle your business and move on to something different and allow another kid to move into your spot. You can’t block somebody else by being selfish. I look at him being selfless; somebody else will come in and take his position”
So really, please nobody blame Vick for this move. It seems abundantly clear that he didn’t have a spot on next year’s team.
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@BShark It sounds like the Vick’s were told Romeo is coming, as well as it seemed like the Vick’s know his stock is about as high as it can get in college. He will have to go prove he can play with the big boys now.
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@Kcmatt7 didnt think we have an available scholarship for Langford if Vick didn’t leave?
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@nuleafjhawk You’re hiring? How much? When can I start? I need off during all Jayhawk games and season tickets as a perk. I also need time for a daily nap, golf on Fridays, and being a teacher for 25 years I’ll also need a week at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and June July and most of August.
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I just want to say this somewhere. Romeo, O Romeo, Wherefore art thou?
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@approxinfinity always a way of making room. If Vick wanted to stay, I’m not sure Cunliffe wasn’t the one to go. If he doesn’t go still. I’d put him on transfer notice now.
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@wissox Classic!
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wissox said:
@nuleafjhawk You’re hiring? How much? When can I start? I need off during all Jayhawk games and season tickets as a perk. I also need time for a daily nap, golf on Fridays, and being a teacher for 25 years I’ll also need a week at Thanksgiving, Christmas, Easter and June July and most of August.
I’m in! Same deal!
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step two - - -Check - - now - it’s set up and the final question IS? - - Romeo Langford - - where will you be attending School next year? - - and Romeo will respond? " 1st of all I want to thank GOD - - -my Coach - -and all my teammates - - I want to thank my mom and dad - and to all the School, s that recruited me - -Thank you- -this was not an easy decision - - BUT having said that - I would like to announce that next year I will be attending - - - - -THE UNIVERSITY OF KANSAS - - - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY LONG BABY
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“I told Coach Self, ‘Look, I’m still coming to Late Night,’” she said with a laugh. “We’ve still got two Memphis boys on the time in Dedric and K.J. (Lawson). I appreciate Kansas basketball taking us places we’ve never been. And I really appreciate Coach Self and the staff for letting me be myself. They always accepted me. The people there were so nice to our family. And this journey for Lagerald has been amazing.”
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I don’t have a good feeling about Vick’s departure.
Vick played 3rd most average minutes and averaged 12 ppg. Not bad. He started in a Final Four, too. Impressive. But an awful lot of guys have started as 3rd or 4th options in the FF and never played in the NBA.
Further, Lagerald shot only 37% from trey land and only 67% from the FT line. And he wasn’t big and strong enough to not need a lot of help on defense against true 3s. Everyone in the NBA is as good as Bridges. Self could find quite a few guys that could give him those numbers.
Langford’s hype says he could, maybe more, but we all know how rarely 5-star freshmen can step in and fulfill the hype that first season, especially on defense, for Self.
Vick is probably going to have to play D league, or overseas, unless I am missing an aspect of his game, so, he should have stayed a senior season, even as a sixth man, and gotten a degree and Self should have wanted him to, if things were good between him and Self, and there were no skeletons in his past from his association with LB, nor stuff we don’t know about the last two seasons.
My antennae often go up about players, when their mothers, or fathers, start explaining what appear odd situations, especially early departures.
Lightfoot appeared the guy that should have gotten pushed overboard to get Langford, not Vick, under normal circumstances. Lightfoot was the guy given the ominous “Bill-Self-no-play” the last two games. Rotation guys that suddenly get the no-play the last game or two are at significant risk historically of shortly saying (or having their parents say) how much they have loved their time at KU, but feel its time for them to move on.
Don’t get this situation.
Feels like more than Langford availability and already signed recruits.
Maybe more to the story?
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@jaybate-1-0 The information is all readily available. Call it a mutual decision between Vick’s family and Self. I said it before he announced, Vick needs money and needs to just start his career now, even if it is, as I suspect, overseas.
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Will not sniff the nba but will make good $$. Call Keith Langford asap Lacobra for big brotherly advice.
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@Fightsongwriter Vick is not Keith Langford. Langford was playing for top division teams and occasionally inquired about by NBA teams. Vick will end with 2nd and 3rd tier teams in Europe.
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Vick should still be able to play for a good chunk of change overseas. Maybe not $1M+ a year like Langford, but six figures for sure.
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@Texas-Hawk-10 I think he was just suggesting he get advice from him … Vick will make a good living. But you’re right, definitely not Keith Langford. Or Romeo, for that matter.
@jaybate-1-0 Ok, so let’s go with your Mitch tangent. Do you really think he is on the outs, or on the transfer block? I agree that the bench in the last two games has been solid circumstantial evidence. But we have no other evidence. Not even a shred. So I really don’t. With other guys that found the bench late, we had more smoke.
How about wild, irresponsible speculation, that goes with your more reserved observation – Mitch got punched by Dedric (leading to Dedric staying home from Italy), and they don’t get along, and thus Self is trying to make nice for next year, and Mitch’s scholarship may actually be at risk? (please note, I am still searching for the assassin, a/k/a the guy who punched Mitch)
I think he’s the program player we all want to occupy a scholarship or two. I’ve said this before and been surprised … but, it would seem the Lightfoot family would have known the lay of the land at Kansas. PT is shifting sand here and only as available as the next OAD. Hopefully he’s a lifer here.
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@jaybate-1.0 Mitch isn’t going to transfer. He bleeds KU. If you tried to lock him out of the building, he would break in. He’s a Jayhawk for life.
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I didn’t speculate that Mitch took an eye steak from a Lawson, but it’s an interesting hypothesis I recall some posing after I noted possible team chemistry problems early on with Svi and Malik.
But if Self were to have Doke, Silvio, and two Lawsi, and with Vick taking the Adios Express, along with DG, Malik and Svi, Self desperately needs trey guns, not 5th or 6th bigs without trey guns.
The looming shortage of trey guns is the evidence that dovetails with the two game no play.
Eye steaks for Mitch from Lawsii still seems outside the flashlight penumbra, until more turns up.
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Hope u r right, but Self is a hard man, when it comes to what can make the team better.
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@jaybate-1.0 He’s cut from different cloth. You can throw the normal reactions away with Mitch- he is all about KU winning above his own personal aspirations. He is the epitome of team first. He won’t want to leave after he graduates.
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Mitch isn’t going anywhere.
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@BShark I know better than to get on this subject anyway. For the next billion years or so, there will be those who love the one and done’s and those who desperately want four year players. Everyone’s right -seriously, we could all make great cases why we’re right, we just can’t make the other side see WHY we’re right!
Have a great day my friend.
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@nuleafjhawk I love four year players that love being at KU. In this day and age, they are pretty rare. That makes guys like Frank, Graham and Svi even MORE special imo. I can’t fault guys for going pro early at all. Make no mistake, they are majoring in basketball.
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I hate seeing a kid leave before their senior year. I’m a huge fan of 4 year players. Yet I think the writing was on the wall for Vick. Coach knew it, KU knew it, and Vick especially knew it. Greatly and sadly Coach is a loyal dog but will out recruit a player. This appears to be the case with Vick. With the new Players that Coach is bringing in. There is a very good chance that Vick could go from starter to a bench player next year. With that being said Vick should go, and salvage what he can of a professional basketball career. Even it means playing over seas.
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@Crimsonorblue22 i like your list. And I’d add Josh Jackson as the best freshman producer Self has ever had in his HOF career. (Injury cut Embiid short). Players like Josh and Embiid are why I utterly hate the OAD rule. Frank and Sherron were special, just as rare.
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@HighEliteMajor Very interesting side thread about Mitch Ltfoot. Personally, it would be in his best interests to really develop his 3 game & handles. He’s got good swat instincts, and showing the athleticism to cash that check. But he’s also not going to be 245-250 lbs. Become a 3/4 versatile guy. Like those Wiscy 6’8 guys of recent yrs. Redshirt even an option, insurance, for both parties.
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@nuleafjhawk Nobody love’s the OADs. It has screwed up CBB pretty good. But your argument really wasn’t arguing for or against OADs. You basically argued that OADs should stay 4 years and forgo three years of potential earnings, in a job that relies on youth and athleticism and only allows guys to make money for a finite number of years.
Put yourself in the shoes of a OAD. I find it extremely hard to believe you wouldn’t take millions of dollars, when you are making at most $120k in “payment”, simply out of loyalty.
Your argument was simply misguided, or perhaps even misstated. Had your argument been about whether we like or dislike the OAD rule, I would think most people would agree that they don’t like it and it is a stupid rule.
My question to you, at this particular moment, would you rather land a OAD prospect who could possibly be the best player on the team if he came, especially in our current roster situation (one that is ranked preseason #1 and a NC Contender) or would you rather take a prospect ranked roughly 120 that stayed for 4 years and has a ceiling of cracking the rotation for 20 minutes per game, a floor of getting the Bill Self Shuffle after one year, and an average of basically being Christian Garrett? Because, this second, that is about where we are at as far as options. I guess you could bring in a transfer. But then you would still only have them for 1 season.
If you say the #150, I would like insert that scenario into your “metaphor.” Instead of hiring the person most qualified for the job because you are afraid they will leave, you would rather hire a person under-qualified for the job and try to train them, even though you know that they will literally NEVER be able to be as good as someone you could have had for one year, and will likely not perform at a competent level for the entire time you have them under your employ? You could do that, or perhaps hire a temp for a year until you try to hire a decently qualified person. But at that point, you could have had a very qualified person for a year instead of a temp who is a temp for a reason.
If you are mad at Newman or Vick, again, these guys only have a short window to earn as much money as possible before their athleticism fades. Put in the same situation as them, I find it hard to believe you wouldn’t do the same thing.
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Quite possibly a moot question for a blue-blood. Given the reload over rebuild priority, appears Self and Company have little choice but to land the best available talent each year regardless of projected/perceived tenure.
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KUSTEVE said:
@jaybate-1.0 He’s cut from different cloth. You can throw the normal reactions away with Mitch- he is all about KU winning above his own personal aspirations. He is the epitome of team first. He won’t want to leave after he graduates.
I’m going to call it now, Mitch Lightfoot will be the head coach at Kansas at some point in the future.
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@CRH107 I think it is a moot point for anyone. Would you want someone who could be a top 25 player in CBB on your team for a year or not? I don’t think it is that hard of a decision for a coach.
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@Kcmatt7 I do think you can skip the presumed OADs. Has Michigan even recruited a presumed OAD? Nova?
It is not as simple as simply taking guys because they are good. It’s an overall approach to recruiting. Promising kids that the program won’t bring in a presumed OAD type that puts them on the bench. It gives a coach credibility.
Not one presumed OAD in the final four this season.
I accept Self will pursue them. But I do think he is trying to target “fits” for the program. Not blind pursuits. I’ve said my peace in the past on this topic, a number of years ago. https://kubuckets.com/topic/935/just-say-no-to-oads-at-ku
Of course, some of my prior points are outdated. A title has been won with a presumed OAD since then.
Where would we be without presumed OADs? I would argue that we’d be better off right now if we’d avoided all of them. Speculation. But the intangible of help with recruiting is one I recognize. I still believe if recruits know we’re not pursuing the presumed OADs, Self would rule in the very next tier.
