WVU 2 FTAs, KU 35 FTAs: Should the Referees Be Brought in for Questioning by the FBI that Is Reputedly Looking into other Bizarre Activities in D1, or Is KU's New Two Free Throw Defense Just that Great of an Innovation?
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Thanks for the assist, corrected now.
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@jaybate-1.0 WVU really had 5 free throw opportunities if that makes you feel better.
1 -Konate’s and one.
2,3 -Carter Misses front end of one and one
4,5 - West? misses front end of one and one, but also commits a lane violation so the throw doesn’t count as a miss.
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That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
I wonder how many FTAs KU would have had under your new accounting system?
Still, your new accounting system does not change that in my 58 years of watching college basketball and five years of referee low level competition, I don’t recall any team ever having a box score of 2 FTAs regardless of how many one and one’s were missed and how many lane violations occurred.
But its still an interesting angle to be considered.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent.
Inconsistent to Huggy as in…why are they calling all these fouls on us? We usually get away with the hacking and it is not fair the start calling them now. I better get a “T” or two now so I have an excuse for blowing a double digit lead for the 3rd time in a row against KU.
Now you better be careful here.
Even with the smiley face someone might be tempted to mischaracterize your remark as part of a “narrative.”
Or maybe even a “Conspiracy theory.”
No, not “conspiracy theory;” that has had its cover blown.
But if anyone tries to smear you with spinning a “narrative”, I will rush to your defense on this!
My hunch is that “narrative” will have its cover blown in a few years, after that you won’t have to worry.
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Dang, I can almost buy that.
But then a little voice whispers the following in my ear.
If WVU’s style of play was what triggered the 2 FTAs, why hasn’t their style of play triggered any other 2 FTAs games this season? Why didn’t it trigger a 2 FTA game against KU in Morgantown? Or alternatively, why hasn’t their style of play triggered any 2 FTA games against other opponents on the road this season?
I agree WVU has a style of play.
They appear to play much the same way every time I watch them play KU, or anyone else.
What was it about playing KU, this one time in Allen Field House, that caused this style of play of WVU to be awarded only 2 FTAs this time, and not on other visits to Allen Field House? Or to any other basketball arena Huggins and WVU have ever played in?
I don’t have any good answers for these questions.
May be you can take a cut at them.
Believe me, I want this to have been all on the up and up, so that KU honestly won the game fair and square.
But I just don’t quite follow how WVU’s style of play would only trigger a 2 FTA game in this one situation this one time and not any other times.
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Pull quote:
Of course, the national media stirred up because of the free throw discrepancy. Which is interesting, considering few, if any, of those same media members seemed to care when West Virginia beat Kansas while shooting 26 more free throws just two years ago.
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Nice. Devonté’s comments nicely sum it up what went on.
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This game was just an anomaly. We need someone like @Jesse-Newell to run the stats on KU home games showing the calls, and then also comparing that to say… WVU home game calls.
If you want to know the truth… If anyone should be mad, it would be Self! We have a team that just doesn’t want to rumble! Since WHEN does a Kansas team finish at the bottom of the Big 12 in FT attempts? That proves one thing; our guys just don’t want to play a physical game.
So we get into a big game with the team that is easily the most-physical team in our league, but we refuse to get physical back with them. I am in awe that we won this game. I still can’t believe we won.
But maybe we are crossing the defensive threshold now. Maybe this team can actually prove something RARELY or NEVER accomplished in basketball; playing tough defense without playing physical! I still have a hard time believing it… but this team has had this philosophy all year and is so talented athletically… This is what they believe and they work hard at their game, including defense… so who knows? It did work out on Saturday.
Contrast this with the interview with Sherron Collins… who was asked how he would stop Trae tonight. Here is what Sherron said:
““I think you have to be physical with him. I’d hit him every time you get a chance to,” Collins said. “No easy layups. You have to hit the floor. Hard foul. I don’t want anybody to hurt anybody. You have to attack him. I’d attack him every time.”” ~ KUSports.com
That is what I think exactly… but I am “old school.” It is what I said the first time we played him. Wear him down! Put him in hard ball screens, etc. Just keep putting body on Trae to wear him down and he will become too tired to be effective at the end of the game. Now… he’s been beat down all year and showing definite signs of being worn down. It works! It works in a single game, and it applies damage to Trae for the rest of the season.
I don’t know… I am open-minded for whatever. I have the teachings of the game that are ingrained in my brain and soul. But times change, and I’ve already passed the threshold of just name-calling on millennials because they bring a different way on many things. I’ve seen many impressive changes once I opened my mind!
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An “old school” strategy for tonight’s game would mean we can expect to see Cunliffe used for his 5 hard fouls on Trae…
I don’t expect to see that happen because we rarely bring much of a specific strategy into our games against specific opponents.
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@drgnslayr We want him to shoot it. He is like 37 out his last 38 from the free throw line. I think he’s shooting around 20% from the field the last 5 or so games.
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On ESPN this morning on the Golic and whoever the other guy is now- -they had a piece about the free throw discrepancy they talked to Tom Creene - is that his last name - the former IU coach that broadcasts now? - - Anyways they was talking to him and he said part of West Virginia problem was they got KU into the bonus early and most of the fouls were shooting fouls and he too mentioned that a lot of WV shots were outside and not driving the middle. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY ONG BABY
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Having just watched the whole game - I don’t see any reason to think the Refs miscalled that game. Sure there were some bad calls/no calls as always but the FTA disparity was due to philosophical differences in approach to the game.
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Devonte was right. The discrepancy should have been even further apart because WVU got away with murder.
Half of their players were holding our guys with both hands… even wrapping them up. The refs were giving warnings instead of blowing the whistle.
Huggy Bear had a strategy to play physical. He knew his biggest chance of winning was to win by playing more physical. When it didn’t work, he played another card… to get thrown out to plant a seed for next year.
I’ll tell you… Huggy doesn’t miss a thing. He belongs in the HOF and he’ll get there. He’s one big March run away from knocking down the door to get in.
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I like this post @jaybate-1-0 because one of my legacies is introducing the term FT defense to our group here!
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I apologize. I did not realize that. Thanks for tooting your horn. My hat is off to you! Consider yourself permanently foot noted. You should be enshrined in the basketball sports writers hall of fame for it. Free throw defense is one of the funniest ideas about basketball ever. It makes me laugh any time I see it, or use it.
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@jaybate-1.0 No need to apologize, seeing it just stirred a memory!
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There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.
What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.
I just don’t see how this game cannot be reviewed.
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JayHawkFanToo said:
So, if one team has a game plan that leads to commiting fouls and the other has one that lead to not fouling, the FTs should still be balanced?
When even the sports writer from the KC Star…we are talking the KU hating KC Start… thinks Huggins has no case you have to conclude the referring was not out of the norm. Look at how many fouls WVU and KU were called until the last 8 second of the game and it is pretty much in line with the average for WVU games.
You seem to be having trouble understanding.
How many visiting teams in Allen Field House, since it opened in 1957, have been awarded only 2 FTAs in a 40 minute game?
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jaybate 1.0 said:
There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.
What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.
I just don’t see how this game cannot be reviewed.
WVU was called for 35 fouls? Wow, this is news to everyone and I am sure Coach Self and KU players would have liked it since they though not all fouls were called on WVU.
KU wound up with only 2 FTAs? Wow, I am sure Huggy would have loved that.
Apparently you believe that only things that have happened before can happen again but in real life, for everything that happens there is always a first time. With your logic, sInce neither KU nor any other program for that matter has won 14 conference tittles in a row, it is not possible for KU to do that this year, and if it does, there must be an investigation by the conference and the NCAA.
Last season at Hilton, ISU was called for 12 fouls and KU was only 2-5 from the FT.
Last season At AFH KU was called for 25 fouls and Stanford went 30-37 from the FT; it hit a lot of the 1 and 1 front ends so it got a lot more attempts.
It happens.
You keep forgetting that if a team is called for a foul in the act of shooting 2 FTA are granted regardless of bonus status. If the foul is not in the act of shooting no FTA are granted.
KU’s outside shooting was off so it was penetrating and the majority of fouls were in the act of shooting while penetrating so they were granted 2 FT each time and KU reached the bonus fairly early.
WVU, on the other hand, was shooting wide open, uncontested 3s and not drawing fouls; only 6 attempts out of 60+ were at the rim.
The situation above was the perfect recipe for a large foul differential which is exactly what happened. If Huggy had not gotten nuts at the end and WVU not fouled on purpose, KU would have had less FTAs. Also, if WVU had not comitted line violations it would have had more attempts.
I don’t know why I am wasting my time, again, you have made up your mind and no amount of logic or facts will change it. I am out.
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@JayHawkFanToo I don’t know why Trae Young didn’t try driving to the basket every single time OU got the ball. I thought our WVU game provided a textbook example of how to get lots of points by constantly driving when outside shots are not working, as well as how to foul up our post players. Curiously passive.
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I’ve watched the game 3 times now. I just haven’t seen it where we received the help from refs. WVU relied on the long ball and didn’t push it to the rim enough. And when they did, Doke did a good job of not fouling. They shot 26 treys.
In the OU game, OU shot 13 FTs… 2 more than us. Why wasn’t that game rigged?
All of this says more about our current culture than the reality at hand. I agree the WVU was an anomaly… but to just point at something and call it “rigged” when there simply isn’t any supporting evidence says more about all of us than the refs that called the game.
The politics we live in today is having an impact on the way we see things, the way we interpret things, the way we communicate things. Just wait until March. This year may easily see fans screaming more about “rigged games” than all years prior.
We can expect to hear some of the same verbiage as used in politics… “fake refs” etc etc etc.
I’m making this point because I noticed our political climate has impacted my own thoughts and how I express them.
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@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the “how we express them” all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
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Check this out. Apparently just like KU, Austin Peay always gets the calls!
Also, 5 times in 8 years makes the concept unusual, but not unheard of.
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Even better:
2 or fewer FTA has happened 169 times since 2010. So if one is willing to accept that KU’s 35 FTA are simply a result of WVU’s style of D, and are simply concerned with the low number of FTA for WVU, there is enormous evidence that such a stat is not out of the realm of possibility.
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A quick review of that data shows it’s even happened at Allen before in 2011. Also, high 3pt attempts seems to be a fairly common factor (though not every time) between games like this.
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For me, officiating is too often the ‘wild card’ in sports (especially basketball) and I have often wondered if referees could be entirely replaced with technology. However, until then, my preference is for referees to call plays as they see them, in the moment, real time…and not add yet another dimension of human error to the equation by forcing them to consider and adjust to foul (or any other) inequality throughout the game. Most fans have witnessed “the make up call” but I find those distracting because like players, I think referees should be thinking “next play”.
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mayjay said:
@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the “how we express them” all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
No and no.
Next.
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Many if not most teams in D1 now shoot 20-30 treys per game routinely and are awarded waaaaaaay more than 2 FTAs in 40 minutes.
When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?
How many FTAs was WVU awarded in Morgantown.
Huggins is an experienced, likely HOF coach with a top notch PG with solid driving ability and above average strength. He could almost drive at will on Devonte, since DG has no backup. And he could drive into Devonte and force short treys. So you say he didn’t. So why?
One way or another the two FTAs suggest some thing rotten in Denmark.
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@jaybate-1-0 Did you look at the info from the site I linked? Your 1st question has been answered. It was 2011 vs Iowa St. If my memory serves that would have been a Hoiberg team that shoots lots of 3s. In fact, they shot 32 threes that game.
As for your second, WVU had 12 FTA in Morgantown, making 11 of them (you can infer they likely got the second shot after a 1 and 1 at least once or twice with that %). That would mean the difference between officiating at WVU and at KU was really about 3 shooting fouls. Is it really unreasonable to assume that 3 fouls would be within the normal limits of variation per game?
And for your last question, Carter had to exit the game with 5 fouls. It’s pretty common for a guard to hesitate to drive in order to protect himself from charge calls.
I agree that the numbers looked bad and were initially startling but after spending far too much time looking into it, I just don’t see anything rotten in any country. Is there a point you are trying to make by simply ignoring the facts people are placing in front of you? Perhaps reinforcing some of what @drgnslayr said. With the president of the US being a known and proud promoter of conspiracy theories, is it really that big of a leap to propose that kind of thinking would find its way into more discussions and areas other than politics?
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For added reference, WVU has had 4 games in the last 8 seasons with 7 or less attempts including 3 against Notre Dame at home in 2012 and 5 against UT at a neutral site in 2014. Rare, yes. Unheard of, no. Are we into “next” territory yet?
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I always appreciate and respect your opinion. I will continue to keep an open mind about that game. I just haven’t seen anything fishy by watching the game several times.
I know I can’t be unbiased… but I try and I often see things different than most Kansas fans.
I saw several situations where we didn’t get the calls in that game. I totally agree the numbers were weird. Sometimes there just isn’t an answer to a game’s results.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?
Not that long ago, February 12, 2011…
Game, set, match.
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Perfect. The numbers don’t lie.
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This is what Bilas said in an article at ESPN today:
There was quite a stir after the Mountaineers blew a double-digit lead in a loss to Kansas at Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence. West Virginia coach Bob Huggins was tossed after vociferously pointing out the free throw disparity, which was 35-2 at the end of the game. Many fans and others around the basketball community pointed to the disparity as clear evidence that something was wrong.
Well, I sat courtside for that game, and there was nothing wrong. Were there some missed calls? Yes. Did the officials miss the call that was the last straw for Huggins? Yes. I watched the game again, and there were about 15 calls that should have or could have been called. But nine of those calls should have or could have gone against West Virginia, including an offensive basket interference call against the Mountaineers that went uncalled and resulted in a bucket.
Free throw disparity is a function of style of play and how teams play on that day. West Virginia settled for a lot of jump shots, while Kansas drove the ball into the lane and punched the ball into its big guy, Udoka Azubuike. West Virginia presses and fouls more than most teams, and it allows more free throws by opponents than all but 13 Division I teams. Kansas does not play pressure defense, and it is in the top 20 in Division I in allowing the fewest free throws. The officials made some mistakes, yes. But the officials did not cost West Virginia the game. The Mountaineers did that all by themselves.
That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor – like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we’ll be the victims.
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@HighEliteMajor Well said. I hope it waits until next year because I’m done losing this year and hopefully the Hawks are too!
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@benshawks08 Sold. Also, a friend of mine who is a lurker here just texted me and told me that the lowest shot against KU was 0 by the Topeka YMCA in, get this, 1899. Does that even count?
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I have had neither success arguing with a man with a badge or a man with a whistle.
Likely, the last 8 minutes brought out the bear in Huggs and he was duly compensated.
Glad Coach Self takes the high road when asked any question (good or bad) about officiating…must not always be easy though.
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If KU ever ends up on the wrong end of a Major FT Discrepancy, I’ll expect nary a word from the lot of you. If 35-2 is not a legitimate complaint against whistle bias, then there shall never be one.
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@Blown It’s a legitimate complaint. I want to make sure people understand that I think that. It is not, however, evidence of wrong doing. Upon further review I cannot conclude in this instance that there was bias. I will reserve the right to point out and review future possible bias if I think I see it. Even if the discrepancy is 12-11 on free throw attempts.
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@Blown I’m w/@benshawks08
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HighEliteMajor said:
That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor – like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we’ll be the victims.
I need to go back and just watch those last 8 minutes before forming my own judgment of those 8 minutes.
But… even if we all agree that Kansas received a benefit… is that benefit because we are Kansas and it is AFH? Or, is it more of a common factor that typically gives all home teams that same advantage?
Refs are humans. How can they not be impacted by a home crowd… especially when their home team has a come-back momentum thing going on? And AFH is the loudest (or one of the loudest) venues in college basketball.
Do you think we get ref benefits just because we are Kansas?
I think Huggy played a card in hopes of gaining a benefit next year, or even in the Big 12 Tournament. He may even be playing that card for years… Huggy is a real competitor. He is TIRED of losing to Kansas. He is TIRED of losing the league. Simply… he’ll do whatever it takes to dethrone us.
Think about this… if Huggy would have stayed polite in this game, no one would be talking about that discrepancy now. It would have appeared within a sports media bleep, and would now be long gone!
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@drgnslayr i would have called it out regardless of what Huggy did. i’ve been calling them out all season. I called it out when we went to Norman and shot 6 to their 25. 6 before the 7 intentionals on Doke.
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I am ‘all in’ with holding referees accountable…whatever it takes to improve their judgment, consistency, and fairness. Poor officiating can become an unwelcome equalizer especially when talent levels on the floor are disparate. I would prefer that competitiveness, athleticism, and strategy determine outcomes instead of a whistle (or absence thereof) and will take KU’s chances anytime a game is officiated appropriately. If Huggy’s concerns are valid, then all should benefit from improvement.
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@Blown You never have heard a word from me about KU on the short end, and never will. Referees trying to eliminate statistical disparities caused by teams would be bias.
Tell me, how should referees respond if one team goes on a foul party while the other team doesn’t? Isn’t it worse to have the refs start getting hesitant to blow whistles for fear of being automatically accused?
Most importantly, please let us know precisely where the cutoff is. Are referees obligated to ensure there are no extremes in a box score? “Can’t call that foul–that team has had 3 players foul out already.”
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@HighEliteMajor I posted the Topeka Y info yesterday morning. It was found in the media guide. Chock full of tidbits!
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@mayjay Ok, I’m good at stealing other’s stuff.
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@HighEliteMajor It was the lurker, not you! Been there, done that…
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I am honest when I say I don’t know if I can really be unbiased. I know I don’t want Kansas to get a free ride anywhere. That has always been what I hate about Duke. I don’t want Kansas to be the next Duke. But that doesn’t mean I can look at a game with Kansas and think my calls are the right calls.
I know I find some wrong calls where we get the break and see it as wrong. When Svi took 3 1/2 steps to clinch our home win against KSU last year, I even built a graphic of Svi Airlines to point it out.
Still… I will never claim to be the right person to judge Kansas treatment overall. I often feel we get ripped off. I think that is typical fan behavior… making me typical.
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The media guide is the bible for all KU basketball related information.
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Huggins deserves this and his arrogance blinds him. Also, he will defend his style of play fouls be damned. Sad…I used to respect him
