WVU 2 FTAs, KU 35 FTAs: Should the Referees Be Brought in for Questioning by the FBI that Is Reputedly Looking into other Bizarre Activities in D1, or Is KU's New Two Free Throw Defense Just that Great of an Innovation?
-
Crimsonorblue22 said:
@mayjay I didn’t see an instant replay of svi or dg that was thrown out of bounds at the end, did you? Hard to tell from my seat, crowd was mad!
Missed that, I think. They didn’t do a very good job of showing the sequence that led Huggy to inviting his own early exit.
-
@nuleafjhawk Don’t forget the Keystone Kops.
-
What do you bet Trae Young gets to the line 12 to 15 times Monday night? That will be because he drives constantly, not because of an instruction to the refs to even up for yesterday’s game, but some will no doubt see causation.
-
I am glad to hear from you, even though we disagree quite a bit on this. But because you have made your case to me you have provoked me into thinking more about this and I may have an explanation of what may have happened. But before proffering my idea, I will address some of your points.
Driving the rim is not the only way to get a shooting foul. KU in several different seasons has mastered driving into guys 10 feet from the basket to get fouled on what I now like to call hard pull-ups. Certainly WVU guys were shooting pull ups and some mid range J’s and those can be used to draw fouls also. But they weren’t being called for sure after the first six fouls. I suspect Huggins thinks that sort of driving into people 10-15 feet away is not very manly way to play the game. He believes tire iron fouling is honorable.
Regardless, as I said, once you get past 6 fouls each half every foul is at least a 1&1 shooting foul, if I recall correctly. Again, WVU only got 2 FTAs.
Now, I fully agree that Huggins brought out the tire irons this game.
During the game I was utterly pissed off about all the “flagrant” fouls that were not called flagrant, and all the no calls that should have been called. I really feared that Huggie had tipped the game with the tire irons by forcing the refs to send KU to the line so many times for so much of the game. From about 15 to go, it was almost like the refs were getting resentful of Huggins for having his team foul so much and not pull them back when they started calling them on it. Refs don’t like it when they call a bunch of fouls to get a game under control and the coach of the team that is doing the most egregious tire iron style fouling doesn’t pull his guys back. I believe the referees thinking would go something like this: hmmmm, we’ve called a piss pot full of fouls and stopped the game endlessly, because of this sunnuvabitch trying to turn this into a football game, so let’s see how he likes this: we’ll just not call any shooting fouls on KU and see how long his guys can hang on to the lead, when his guys start missing as many as KU’s guys have been, because of all the rough stuff. And, oh yeah, tough guy, we’re going to keep KU on the FT line and the moment you blow up we’re going to T you out of here!
Now that you have made me process this again, I am starting to think that this must be what happened.
These refs have probably called a number of WVU games where Huggins and his teams have pulled out the tire irons the same way Tom Izzo and his teams do. We don’t see all the other WVU games. We just see Huggie do it twice a season and some times, when he has no chance of winning, and out of collegial respect for a hall of fame grade coach, Huggie even pulls his punches with his team. But this was a must win game for both teams and Huggie knew he had a chance of fouling up the game so much that the refs would finally just swallow their whistles to get the game over; that would favor Huggie. So: Huggins just went to the trunk of his black 57 Chevy with the flames on it, pulled out a full array of tire irons, handed them out to his team and said something vaguely like: two go in one comes out. Foul’em till the refs can’t call anymore fouls and then keep fouling; that sort of game we win for sure, even in Allen Field House, even with the home whistle. We aren’t going to get a fair whistle at KU, so let’s make them call so many fouls early they finally have to stop calling the fouls and let us play them straight up.
Well, my hypothesis is that the refs were sick of Huggie’s strategy. They had seen it too many times before. They call it getting worked by a coach. Refs don’t like feeling like they’ve been worked. They don’t mind back and forth with a coach and they don’t mind having a mistake called to their attention, but they hate it when a coach takes it into a level of roughness that they have used their whistles firmly to say, no, we are not going to have that kind of game today.
Maybe these refs had just seen Huggies act once too many times.
Maybe these refs looked down at the blue lettering on the court that spelled Naismith and they just decided they had finally been worked once too many times.
When I look at it this way, as an old referee, and when I think about the referees saying, look, we’ve made it clear to this guy, and we’ve cut him some slack, but he just doesn’t get it.
Maybe they just decided to take the game into their own hands to keep Huggie from taking it into his.
Now that’s something I can relate to.
Referees rightfully have great discretion in how to bring a game and its participants into line and to impose fairness on the competition.
Refs exist to make the game a fair competition.
Maybe the refs thought, so you want to take this junk to a point where we HAVE to swallow our whistles, eh? Well, we’ll just swallow our damned whistles for you right now with 18 minutes to go and see how you like them apples, Bob.
And Bob didn’t like it.
And they hung the Ts on him and sent him to the showers.
And did you notice that not one of the referees appeared to try to reason with their fellow referees to revisit what went on, and not one of them seemed the least bit ruffled about Bob’s tirade, nor did they give him a second look as he left.
Hey, @Lulufulu, I’m feeling better already!!!
Maybe this glass is half full, after all.
Rock Chalk!
-
mayjay said:
What do you bet Trae Young gets to the line 12 to 15 times Monday night? That will be because he drives constantly, not because of an instruction to the refs to even up for yesterday’s game, but some will no doubt see causation.
I will bet that I for one will anticipate no future appearance of wrong doing in D1, because I am fully satisfied by the amount of appearance of wrong doing I get without anticipating anything.
I will bet that Deuce Young will appear to get the usual whistle breaks “stars” that come prepackaged with hype appear to get in the apparently entertainment value-drenched D1 from time to time (note: this is not anticipating future wrong doing, because in the entertainment value-soaked D1 it appears such enablement of stars does not appear to be inappropriate activity, perhaps somewhat the same as enabling stars in the World Wrestling Federation would not be considered inappropriate.)
I will bet the Deuce comes out of his slump sooner or later, but that he remains a volume shooter.(Note: I don’t think the refs have anything to do with his slump, or with him being a volume shooter.)
I will bet that Deuce tries to drive on Devonte Graham (to foul him up), because Devonte has no credible back up and so Self would have to play Vick and Malik as his point guards, which would then force him into playing Garrett on a wing regardless of matchup, something he would not want to have to do for a majority of the game.
I will bet that Self tells Devonte to take as few fouling risks defending Deuce as he can the first 30 minutes to keep his fouls down, although probably he will NOT tell the team to keep the other team’s FTAs down to 2.
Next, I will bet that when Deuce gets a couple buckets Self will proably have Devonte sit on Deuce’s strong hand, pick him up much farther out and will probably tell him to get a hand in Deuces face if he shoots the three, or let him drive by with his weak hand, because Self has put Mitch, and/or Silvio in the paint for a stretch and they will contest Deuce at the rim and KU’s wings will attempt to sag and strip Deuce as he drives down the lane.
I will bet that some one will try to castigate others for being skeptical about events that appear remarkably improbable and then make the nonlinear leap to suggesting that they will anticipate future wrong doing.
Regarding the 12-15 FTAs being related to referee bias, there are enough bizarre anomolies in the recent past that no one needs to anticipate any. They just keep coming without any anticipation. Its like Washington and the Deep State. You don’t need to anticipate them doing bad stuff. You just set your alarm, wake up and they’ve done something else bad. No anticipation required.
But here’s the really great part: because of the preceding, there is no need to insinuate others would EVER anticipate this sort of fecal matter in the future, when almost no one anticipates the worst, except Deep State geeks that probably know why Stephen Paddock died in Las Vegas a day after police found dead from suicide in his Mandalay Bay hotel room. No, regular folk just wake up, brew some java, and before they are even fully awake the bad stuff just comes in over the digital transom, as per mind control precepts developed with our tax dollars to be used for destabilizing cultures at home and abroad in the interest of regime change.
(Note: these will all, of course be gentleman’s wagers involving no consideration of any kind, or value, and loss of which will only result in metaphorical consumption of crow.)
Rock Chalk!
-
So, if one team has a game plan that leads to commiting fouls and the other has one that lead to not fouling, the FTs should still be balanced?
When even the sports writer from the KC Star…we are talking the KU hating KC Start… thinks Huggins has no case you have to conclude the referring was not out of the norm. Look at how many fouls WVU and KU were called until the last 8 second of the game and it is pretty much in line with the average for WVU games.
-
-
It occurs to me that you enjoy the folk art of fecal mass polishing.
I am very tolerant of alias’ pursuing idiosyncratic interests.
But could you engage in the fecal mass polishing without asking me to call it a precious metal ingot?
-
Buffer 1
-
@BShark well, your going to have to forgive me on the actual time line in years, in terms of how long its actually been for such a lopsided foul calling game. Needless to say, its been a while.
-
Lulufulu said:
@BShark well, your going to have to forgive me on the actual time line in years, in terms of how long its actually been for such a lopsided foul calling game. Needless to say, its been a while.
Duke had a +30 FTA game this year.
-
@jaybate-1.0 That’s exactly what I’m saying!!
I’m mid way through the game right now and my count stands at 13 to 2 on FOR KU on drives to the rim in attempt to catch a foul or an And one. 13 - 2. Plus, in the first half, Bilas called, and correctly ID’d 4 other fouls that should have been called on WVU. 4.
Huggy just brought out the bazookas and grenades in this one.
Ive never been a player or a ref but if you wrap your arms around KU’s player and get no foul called, something else must have been going on to distract those refs from chirping that whistle.
-
@BShark Duke doesn’t count!!!
I’m kidding. I stand corrected
-
I don’t think anyone even blinks when it happens with Duke lol. They also have a +25 and +26.
-
…and they have not even played WVU.
-
Did I see this right? TT plays 3 games over a 6 day period? WOW!
-
@hawkmoon2020 We have already done this a few times this year and play 3 games in 7 days.
-
Almost finished with the replay. And, again you guys, I’m just a fan. But, if you drive to the lane to get a basket in the paint and drive for a foul and there is negligible contact, the refs aren’t going to call that It has to be obvious contact, right?
I am just not seeing the kind of defensive contact necessary to draw a whistle on KU’s end.
I will fully admit to some bias here, because, duh. But I am just not seeing the kind of contact from KU on the defensive end necessary to draw fouls.
-
The red flag to me is not size of the asymmetry. I have seen games where one team gets a ton more FTAs than the other.
I just don’t recall a game in 58 years of watching, nor in all the games I refereed over 5 years, where one team only got 2 FTAs.
'Splain that one Lucy!!!
-
The question remains: how did KU get soooooooo many other fouls called on it, if what you say is true.
Again, KU was whistled for FOURTEEN personal fouls.
WVU was whistled for 26.
It was not that the refs were not whistling fouls on KU.
It was that the refs were not whistling a certain kind of foul on KU.
That’s where things get murky.
-
It was #BIFM Karma in The Phog.
FWIW: Did you feel during the game that there was such a huge discrepancy? I remember looking and seeing that we were already in the bonus midway each half. Huggy plays catch and grab and slap, then almost dares the refs to call all the fouls his guys commit on a regular basis and this time the refs called all the catches, grabs and slaps, as if to say we aren’t putting up with it anymore. Higgins is lead on the crews these days and his ego may have been a factor. JMO
-
I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent.
Inconsistent to Huggy as in…why are they calling all these fouls on us? We usually get away with the hacking and it is not fair the start calling them now. I better get a “T” or two now so I have an excuse for blowing a double digit lead for the 3rd time in a row against KU.
-
@JayHawkFanToo 2 T’s!
-
Thanks for the assist, corrected now.
-
@jaybate-1.0 WVU really had 5 free throw opportunities if that makes you feel better.
1 -Konate’s and one.
2,3 -Carter Misses front end of one and one
4,5 - West? misses front end of one and one, but also commits a lane violation so the throw doesn’t count as a miss.
-
That’s an interesting way of looking at it.
I wonder how many FTAs KU would have had under your new accounting system?
Still, your new accounting system does not change that in my 58 years of watching college basketball and five years of referee low level competition, I don’t recall any team ever having a box score of 2 FTAs regardless of how many one and one’s were missed and how many lane violations occurred.
But its still an interesting angle to be considered.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
I can understand why Huggins was so upset. The referring is inconsistent.
Inconsistent to Huggy as in…why are they calling all these fouls on us? We usually get away with the hacking and it is not fair the start calling them now. I better get a “T” or two now so I have an excuse for blowing a double digit lead for the 3rd time in a row against KU.
Now you better be careful here.
Even with the smiley face someone might be tempted to mischaracterize your remark as part of a “narrative.”
Or maybe even a “Conspiracy theory.”
No, not “conspiracy theory;” that has had its cover blown.
But if anyone tries to smear you with spinning a “narrative”, I will rush to your defense on this!
My hunch is that “narrative” will have its cover blown in a few years, after that you won’t have to worry.
-
Dang, I can almost buy that.
But then a little voice whispers the following in my ear.
If WVU’s style of play was what triggered the 2 FTAs, why hasn’t their style of play triggered any other 2 FTAs games this season? Why didn’t it trigger a 2 FTA game against KU in Morgantown? Or alternatively, why hasn’t their style of play triggered any 2 FTA games against other opponents on the road this season?
I agree WVU has a style of play.
They appear to play much the same way every time I watch them play KU, or anyone else.
What was it about playing KU, this one time in Allen Field House, that caused this style of play of WVU to be awarded only 2 FTAs this time, and not on other visits to Allen Field House? Or to any other basketball arena Huggins and WVU have ever played in?
I don’t have any good answers for these questions.
May be you can take a cut at them.
Believe me, I want this to have been all on the up and up, so that KU honestly won the game fair and square.
But I just don’t quite follow how WVU’s style of play would only trigger a 2 FTA game in this one situation this one time and not any other times.
-
Pull quote:
Of course, the national media stirred up because of the free throw discrepancy. Which is interesting, considering few, if any, of those same media members seemed to care when West Virginia beat Kansas while shooting 26 more free throws just two years ago.
-
Nice. Devonté’s comments nicely sum it up what went on.
-
This game was just an anomaly. We need someone like @Jesse-Newell to run the stats on KU home games showing the calls, and then also comparing that to say… WVU home game calls.
If you want to know the truth… If anyone should be mad, it would be Self! We have a team that just doesn’t want to rumble! Since WHEN does a Kansas team finish at the bottom of the Big 12 in FT attempts? That proves one thing; our guys just don’t want to play a physical game.
So we get into a big game with the team that is easily the most-physical team in our league, but we refuse to get physical back with them. I am in awe that we won this game. I still can’t believe we won.
But maybe we are crossing the defensive threshold now. Maybe this team can actually prove something RARELY or NEVER accomplished in basketball; playing tough defense without playing physical! I still have a hard time believing it… but this team has had this philosophy all year and is so talented athletically… This is what they believe and they work hard at their game, including defense… so who knows? It did work out on Saturday.
Contrast this with the interview with Sherron Collins… who was asked how he would stop Trae tonight. Here is what Sherron said:
““I think you have to be physical with him. I’d hit him every time you get a chance to,” Collins said. “No easy layups. You have to hit the floor. Hard foul. I don’t want anybody to hurt anybody. You have to attack him. I’d attack him every time.”” ~ KUSports.com
That is what I think exactly… but I am “old school.” It is what I said the first time we played him. Wear him down! Put him in hard ball screens, etc. Just keep putting body on Trae to wear him down and he will become too tired to be effective at the end of the game. Now… he’s been beat down all year and showing definite signs of being worn down. It works! It works in a single game, and it applies damage to Trae for the rest of the season.
I don’t know… I am open-minded for whatever. I have the teachings of the game that are ingrained in my brain and soul. But times change, and I’ve already passed the threshold of just name-calling on millennials because they bring a different way on many things. I’ve seen many impressive changes once I opened my mind!
-
An “old school” strategy for tonight’s game would mean we can expect to see Cunliffe used for his 5 hard fouls on Trae…
I don’t expect to see that happen because we rarely bring much of a specific strategy into our games against specific opponents.
-
@drgnslayr We want him to shoot it. He is like 37 out his last 38 from the free throw line. I think he’s shooting around 20% from the field the last 5 or so games.
-
On ESPN this morning on the Golic and whoever the other guy is now- -they had a piece about the free throw discrepancy they talked to Tom Creene - is that his last name - the former IU coach that broadcasts now? - - Anyways they was talking to him and he said part of West Virginia problem was they got KU into the bonus early and most of the fouls were shooting fouls and he too mentioned that a lot of WV shots were outside and not driving the middle. - - ROCK CHALK ALL DAY ONG BABY
-
Having just watched the whole game - I don’t see any reason to think the Refs miscalled that game. Sure there were some bad calls/no calls as always but the FTA disparity was due to philosophical differences in approach to the game.
-
Devonte was right. The discrepancy should have been even further apart because WVU got away with murder.
Half of their players were holding our guys with both hands… even wrapping them up. The refs were giving warnings instead of blowing the whistle.
Huggy Bear had a strategy to play physical. He knew his biggest chance of winning was to win by playing more physical. When it didn’t work, he played another card… to get thrown out to plant a seed for next year.
I’ll tell you… Huggy doesn’t miss a thing. He belongs in the HOF and he’ll get there. He’s one big March run away from knocking down the door to get in.
-
I like this post @jaybate-1-0 because one of my legacies is introducing the term FT defense to our group here!
-
I apologize. I did not realize that. Thanks for tooting your horn. My hat is off to you! Consider yourself permanently foot noted. You should be enshrined in the basketball sports writers hall of fame for it. Free throw defense is one of the funniest ideas about basketball ever. It makes me laugh any time I see it, or use it.
-
@jaybate-1.0 No need to apologize, seeing it just stirred a memory!
-
There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.
What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.
I just don’t see how this game cannot be reviewed.
-
JayHawkFanToo said:
So, if one team has a game plan that leads to commiting fouls and the other has one that lead to not fouling, the FTs should still be balanced?
When even the sports writer from the KC Star…we are talking the KU hating KC Start… thinks Huggins has no case you have to conclude the referring was not out of the norm. Look at how many fouls WVU and KU were called until the last 8 second of the game and it is pretty much in line with the average for WVU games.
You seem to be having trouble understanding.
How many visiting teams in Allen Field House, since it opened in 1957, have been awarded only 2 FTAs in a 40 minute game?
-
jaybate 1.0 said:
There is no doubt in my mind that the refs should have called more than the 35 fouls they called on WVU.
What still flabbergasts me is how they called the game in such a way that KU wound up with only 2 FTAs; this I just cannot explain and ALL the explanations I have read are so easy to refute.
I just don’t see how this game cannot be reviewed.
WVU was called for 35 fouls? Wow, this is news to everyone and I am sure Coach Self and KU players would have liked it since they though not all fouls were called on WVU.
KU wound up with only 2 FTAs? Wow, I am sure Huggy would have loved that.
Apparently you believe that only things that have happened before can happen again but in real life, for everything that happens there is always a first time. With your logic, sInce neither KU nor any other program for that matter has won 14 conference tittles in a row, it is not possible for KU to do that this year, and if it does, there must be an investigation by the conference and the NCAA.
Last season at Hilton, ISU was called for 12 fouls and KU was only 2-5 from the FT.
Last season At AFH KU was called for 25 fouls and Stanford went 30-37 from the FT; it hit a lot of the 1 and 1 front ends so it got a lot more attempts.
It happens.
You keep forgetting that if a team is called for a foul in the act of shooting 2 FTA are granted regardless of bonus status. If the foul is not in the act of shooting no FTA are granted.
KU’s outside shooting was off so it was penetrating and the majority of fouls were in the act of shooting while penetrating so they were granted 2 FT each time and KU reached the bonus fairly early.
WVU, on the other hand, was shooting wide open, uncontested 3s and not drawing fouls; only 6 attempts out of 60+ were at the rim.
The situation above was the perfect recipe for a large foul differential which is exactly what happened. If Huggy had not gotten nuts at the end and WVU not fouled on purpose, KU would have had less FTAs. Also, if WVU had not comitted line violations it would have had more attempts.
I don’t know why I am wasting my time, again, you have made up your mind and no amount of logic or facts will change it. I am out.
-
@JayHawkFanToo I don’t know why Trae Young didn’t try driving to the basket every single time OU got the ball. I thought our WVU game provided a textbook example of how to get lots of points by constantly driving when outside shots are not working, as well as how to foul up our post players. Curiously passive.
-
I’ve watched the game 3 times now. I just haven’t seen it where we received the help from refs. WVU relied on the long ball and didn’t push it to the rim enough. And when they did, Doke did a good job of not fouling. They shot 26 treys.
In the OU game, OU shot 13 FTs… 2 more than us. Why wasn’t that game rigged?
All of this says more about our current culture than the reality at hand. I agree the WVU was an anomaly… but to just point at something and call it “rigged” when there simply isn’t any supporting evidence says more about all of us than the refs that called the game.
The politics we live in today is having an impact on the way we see things, the way we interpret things, the way we communicate things. Just wait until March. This year may easily see fans screaming more about “rigged games” than all years prior.
We can expect to hear some of the same verbiage as used in politics… “fake refs” etc etc etc.
I’m making this point because I noticed our political climate has impacted my own thoughts and how I express them.
-
@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the “how we express them” all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
-
Check this out. Apparently just like KU, Austin Peay always gets the calls!
Also, 5 times in 8 years makes the concept unusual, but not unheard of.
-
Even better:
2 or fewer FTA has happened 169 times since 2010. So if one is willing to accept that KU’s 35 FTA are simply a result of WVU’s style of D, and are simply concerned with the low number of FTA for WVU, there is enormous evidence that such a stat is not out of the realm of possibility.
-
A quick review of that data shows it’s even happened at Allen before in 2011. Also, high 3pt attempts seems to be a fairly common factor (though not every time) between games like this.
-
For me, officiating is too often the ‘wild card’ in sports (especially basketball) and I have often wondered if referees could be entirely replaced with technology. However, until then, my preference is for referees to call plays as they see them, in the moment, real time…and not add yet another dimension of human error to the equation by forcing them to consider and adjust to foul (or any other) inequality throughout the game. Most fans have witnessed “the make up call” but I find those distracting because like players, I think referees should be thinking “next play”.
-
mayjay said:
@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the “how we express them” all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
No and no.
Next.
