WVU 2 FTAs, KU 35 FTAs: Should the Referees Be Brought in for Questioning by the FBI that Is Reputedly Looking into other Bizarre Activities in D1, or Is KU's New Two Free Throw Defense Just that Great of an Innovation?
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A quick review of that data shows it’s even happened at Allen before in 2011. Also, high 3pt attempts seems to be a fairly common factor (though not every time) between games like this.
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For me, officiating is too often the ‘wild card’ in sports (especially basketball) and I have often wondered if referees could be entirely replaced with technology. However, until then, my preference is for referees to call plays as they see them, in the moment, real time…and not add yet another dimension of human error to the equation by forcing them to consider and adjust to foul (or any other) inequality throughout the game. Most fans have witnessed “the make up call” but I find those distracting because like players, I think referees should be thinking “next play”.
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mayjay said:
@drgnslayr Excellent points. And the “how we express them” all too often results in all of us accusing each other of bad motives for having opinions that differ.
No and no.
Next.
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Many if not most teams in D1 now shoot 20-30 treys per game routinely and are awarded waaaaaaay more than 2 FTAs in 40 minutes.
When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?
How many FTAs was WVU awarded in Morgantown.
Huggins is an experienced, likely HOF coach with a top notch PG with solid driving ability and above average strength. He could almost drive at will on Devonte, since DG has no backup. And he could drive into Devonte and force short treys. So you say he didn’t. So why?
One way or another the two FTAs suggest some thing rotten in Denmark.
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@jaybate-1-0 Did you look at the info from the site I linked? Your 1st question has been answered. It was 2011 vs Iowa St. If my memory serves that would have been a Hoiberg team that shoots lots of 3s. In fact, they shot 32 threes that game.
As for your second, WVU had 12 FTA in Morgantown, making 11 of them (you can infer they likely got the second shot after a 1 and 1 at least once or twice with that %). That would mean the difference between officiating at WVU and at KU was really about 3 shooting fouls. Is it really unreasonable to assume that 3 fouls would be within the normal limits of variation per game?
And for your last question, Carter had to exit the game with 5 fouls. It’s pretty common for a guard to hesitate to drive in order to protect himself from charge calls.
I agree that the numbers looked bad and were initially startling but after spending far too much time looking into it, I just don’t see anything rotten in any country. Is there a point you are trying to make by simply ignoring the facts people are placing in front of you? Perhaps reinforcing some of what @drgnslayr said. With the president of the US being a known and proud promoter of conspiracy theories, is it really that big of a leap to propose that kind of thinking would find its way into more discussions and areas other than politics?
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For added reference, WVU has had 4 games in the last 8 seasons with 7 or less attempts including 3 against Notre Dame at home in 2012 and 5 against UT at a neutral site in 2014. Rare, yes. Unheard of, no. Are we into “next” territory yet?
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I always appreciate and respect your opinion. I will continue to keep an open mind about that game. I just haven’t seen anything fishy by watching the game several times.
I know I can’t be unbiased… but I try and I often see things different than most Kansas fans.
I saw several situations where we didn’t get the calls in that game. I totally agree the numbers were weird. Sometimes there just isn’t an answer to a game’s results.
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jaybate 1.0 said:
When was the last time a visiting team was awarded only 2 FTAs in AFH?
Not that long ago, February 12, 2011…
Game, set, match.
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Perfect. The numbers don’t lie.
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This is what Bilas said in an article at ESPN today:
There was quite a stir after the Mountaineers blew a double-digit lead in a loss to Kansas at Allen Fieldhouse in Lawrence. West Virginia coach Bob Huggins was tossed after vociferously pointing out the free throw disparity, which was 35-2 at the end of the game. Many fans and others around the basketball community pointed to the disparity as clear evidence that something was wrong.
Well, I sat courtside for that game, and there was nothing wrong. Were there some missed calls? Yes. Did the officials miss the call that was the last straw for Huggins? Yes. I watched the game again, and there were about 15 calls that should have or could have been called. But nine of those calls should have or could have gone against West Virginia, including an offensive basket interference call against the Mountaineers that went uncalled and resulted in a bucket.
Free throw disparity is a function of style of play and how teams play on that day. West Virginia settled for a lot of jump shots, while Kansas drove the ball into the lane and punched the ball into its big guy, Udoka Azubuike. West Virginia presses and fouls more than most teams, and it allows more free throws by opponents than all but 13 Division I teams. Kansas does not play pressure defense, and it is in the top 20 in Division I in allowing the fewest free throws. The officials made some mistakes, yes. But the officials did not cost West Virginia the game. The Mountaineers did that all by themselves.
That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor – like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we’ll be the victims.
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@HighEliteMajor Well said. I hope it waits until next year because I’m done losing this year and hopefully the Hawks are too!
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@benshawks08 Sold. Also, a friend of mine who is a lurker here just texted me and told me that the lowest shot against KU was 0 by the Topeka YMCA in, get this, 1899. Does that even count?
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I have had neither success arguing with a man with a badge or a man with a whistle.
Likely, the last 8 minutes brought out the bear in Huggs and he was duly compensated.
Glad Coach Self takes the high road when asked any question (good or bad) about officiating…must not always be easy though.
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If KU ever ends up on the wrong end of a Major FT Discrepancy, I’ll expect nary a word from the lot of you. If 35-2 is not a legitimate complaint against whistle bias, then there shall never be one.
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@Blown It’s a legitimate complaint. I want to make sure people understand that I think that. It is not, however, evidence of wrong doing. Upon further review I cannot conclude in this instance that there was bias. I will reserve the right to point out and review future possible bias if I think I see it. Even if the discrepancy is 12-11 on free throw attempts.
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@Blown I’m w/@benshawks08
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HighEliteMajor said:
That said, I strongly believe that the last 8 minutes went substantially in our favor – like really substantially. We were down 10 and that swing helped create our comeback. Thanks refs. Next time we’ll be the victims.
I need to go back and just watch those last 8 minutes before forming my own judgment of those 8 minutes.
But… even if we all agree that Kansas received a benefit… is that benefit because we are Kansas and it is AFH? Or, is it more of a common factor that typically gives all home teams that same advantage?
Refs are humans. How can they not be impacted by a home crowd… especially when their home team has a come-back momentum thing going on? And AFH is the loudest (or one of the loudest) venues in college basketball.
Do you think we get ref benefits just because we are Kansas?
I think Huggy played a card in hopes of gaining a benefit next year, or even in the Big 12 Tournament. He may even be playing that card for years… Huggy is a real competitor. He is TIRED of losing to Kansas. He is TIRED of losing the league. Simply… he’ll do whatever it takes to dethrone us.
Think about this… if Huggy would have stayed polite in this game, no one would be talking about that discrepancy now. It would have appeared within a sports media bleep, and would now be long gone!
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@drgnslayr i would have called it out regardless of what Huggy did. i’ve been calling them out all season. I called it out when we went to Norman and shot 6 to their 25. 6 before the 7 intentionals on Doke.
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I am ‘all in’ with holding referees accountable…whatever it takes to improve their judgment, consistency, and fairness. Poor officiating can become an unwelcome equalizer especially when talent levels on the floor are disparate. I would prefer that competitiveness, athleticism, and strategy determine outcomes instead of a whistle (or absence thereof) and will take KU’s chances anytime a game is officiated appropriately. If Huggy’s concerns are valid, then all should benefit from improvement.
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@Blown You never have heard a word from me about KU on the short end, and never will. Referees trying to eliminate statistical disparities caused by teams would be bias.
Tell me, how should referees respond if one team goes on a foul party while the other team doesn’t? Isn’t it worse to have the refs start getting hesitant to blow whistles for fear of being automatically accused?
Most importantly, please let us know precisely where the cutoff is. Are referees obligated to ensure there are no extremes in a box score? “Can’t call that foul–that team has had 3 players foul out already.”
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@HighEliteMajor I posted the Topeka Y info yesterday morning. It was found in the media guide. Chock full of tidbits!
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@mayjay Ok, I’m good at stealing other’s stuff.
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@HighEliteMajor It was the lurker, not you! Been there, done that…
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I am honest when I say I don’t know if I can really be unbiased. I know I don’t want Kansas to get a free ride anywhere. That has always been what I hate about Duke. I don’t want Kansas to be the next Duke. But that doesn’t mean I can look at a game with Kansas and think my calls are the right calls.
I know I find some wrong calls where we get the break and see it as wrong. When Svi took 3 1/2 steps to clinch our home win against KSU last year, I even built a graphic of Svi Airlines to point it out.
Still… I will never claim to be the right person to judge Kansas treatment overall. I often feel we get ripped off. I think that is typical fan behavior… making me typical.
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The media guide is the bible for all KU basketball related information.
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Huggins deserves this and his arrogance blinds him. Also, he will defend his style of play fouls be damned. Sad…I used to respect him
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Huggins (and Mike Anderson/Arkansas) coach a style of college basketball that is rapidly becoming a dinosaur in an age of smaller lineups and fans who crave athleticism, style, and finesse plays/players. I wouldn’t shed a tear for its demise.
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I am astounded how much discussion can be generated over 2 free throws!
