So much positive media
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@Hawk8086 I believe that when the Morris Twins were at KU we had 10 guys averaging 10 or more minutes? I could be wrong but I am too lasy this morning to check. I could see our rotation at 10 with all of the talent on the roster. That could shrink to 7-8 by the end of march but who knows?
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@Statmachine You are correct … 2010-11. We had 10 guys average over 10 minutes. But we had a true 8 man rotation. Releford averaged just over 10, but he didn’t play every game. So that skews it. And by the end, he was not playing much. And EJ averaged just over 10, but again, got cut out of many meaningful minutes, including very little time vs. VCU.
Here are the years and number of players averaging double figure minutes -
- 2008-09 - 8
- 2009-10 - 8
- 2010-11 - 10
- 2011-12 - 7
- 2012-13 - 7
- 2013-14. - 8
Remember, last season, at exactly this time, my folks were also speculating on a bigger rotation because of all of our talent.
History says it won’t happen. Self will settle on his favorites, his comfort zone. Other guys will get scraps.
I think it will be four post guys (Ellis, Alexander, Traylor and either Mick or Lucas).
Then five perimeter guys (Mason, Selden, Oubre, Greene and then either Graham or CF).
The fifth perimeter guy getting the scraps. Could that fifth guy average 10 minutes? Sure.
I have always used the arbitrary number of 13 minutes to qualify as “rotation” level minutes. Just my arbitrary number.
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Are you suggesting we would have beaten VCU if EJ had played more?!?!
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I hope Perry is ready to be THE MAN this year!
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I wish he was ready to be THE MAN too. However I can see any of our Sophomore’s rising up to the challenge before he does. He is a worker not a leader but there is nothing wrong with that. I hope I am wrong though.
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@HighEliteMajor I believe you’re right about the rotation with one little exception. Svee is projected to be a top 10 talent and could easily go pro (over seas) if he is not happy about his minutes. Before he committed to a school I believe he said he wanted to play 10-15 min a game his first year and help win some games. I think because HCBS needs him around he gets minutes. Heck he is letting him play over seas at the moment instead of getting in meaningful practice time with the team. Even Wiggins opted out of playing with his national team to get to KU and start working. I am sure it will effect his minutes in November but I think Self will play him because he has to keep his future lotto pic happy so future lotto picks keep coming to late night and signing with KU.
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As I posted on the old board:
“Last season KU had the players that went 1 and 3 in the past draft and 2 that are projected to go first round in the next draft, and yet it ended up with worst season in Coach Self’s tenure at KU…just sayin’”
The current team will not have a prospect as hyped as Wiggins or even Embiid, but will have a lot more experience. Coach Self (and also many other coaches) has always said that by conference time his rotation is pretty much set at around 7-8 players and the rest just get garbage time. Last year he indicated that because of the available talent he might use more players, but he ended up right he has always been. At this point, I don’t see this pattern changing.
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@JayHawkFanToo Your right about our draft pics but we did win our conference and when JoJo got hurt that pretty much ended our run. We had only really lost 6 games before that (I believe) which still would have probably been considered a bad year. We also had poor leadership (Tharpe). If your leader doesn’t even believe weather or not coach likes him how can he run a team? We have remedied that and all of our role players have a year experience and a summer with Hudy. I believe they’re ready to ball!!!
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@Statmachine said:> He is a worker not a leader but there is nothing wrong with that. I hope I am wrong though
This is an intriguing statement since Perry is the most veteran player on the team. I know he’s quiet and his demeanor is flatline during the game-- he doesn’t show a lot of emotion. But he’s a smart kid-- valedictorian in his high school class if i’m not mistaken. He’s studious but and seems to care as much about being a student as an athlete.
I’m just wondering if there’s additional evidence that he’s not a leader. We kind of need him to be a leader… Of course there are different kinds of leaders – those that are reserved and those that are fiery… Also, could he be the kind of leader that is leading in the locker room and practice floor but when it comes to games, he’s working within his talent level (which is substantial, but seems diminished next to Wiggins and Embiid types of talent.)
Anyway, I’m just thinking the dynamic is going to be quite different this year… The sophomores will bring more maturity and experience in the system. Perry should have some more confidence from his summer… And we’ve got some great young talent from extremely diverse backgrounds… I expect two very different kinds of FIRE from Cliff and Svi.
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@bskeet Remember when Robinson had to get Withey all fired up to get his mental state where it needed to be so they could win games? Someone is going to have to light a fire under Ellis’s butt in order for him to go out there and dominate and take control during close games.
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@VailHawk My position has consistently been that EJ should have been given the 2 spot and left alone (since EJ’s poor senior season as PG). That would mean that he would have started that season at the 2 and played major minutes every game. I just know what I saw. And it was B-star related.
Now, I admit, I saw EJ as a point guard. And at the time, felt that he should play over TT. I was dead wrong in that assessment – meaning, EJ was not a PG. However, I did at the time express many times that EJ should be playing over B-star, too. EJ’s performance in the tourney in 2012 validated that opinion. The VCU game was the exact type of game I mentioned in postings during that season, that Brady could be an Achilles’ heel.
In hindsight, it seems obvious that EJ was a 2. And should have had that job. Now, of course, it’s Self’s job to recognize that. He hitched his wagon to Brady.
Would we have beaten VCU if we would have played them in the same spot, with EJ being the man at the 2 spot all season? I firmly believe that we would have. Can’t guarantee that. But would you (or anyone) rather have had EJ, and his style of play vs. VCU over Brady? Easy.
Together with that, I would have preferred more minutes from Releford, who also proved his worth in 2012 (though slowed by the ankle in 2011 – Self clearly was playing Reed and Brady over Releford even before the ankle).
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@Statmachine Thus the dilemma – who sits?
Here’s how it could work – 1) Svi really can handle the ball, can be that back PG, and 2) only one – Mason, Graham, or CF get PG minutes. OR 1) He simply beats out Brannen Greene.
Personally, I don’t think either scenario happens.
I agree with your assessment that he could bail if not getting PT. There are a few that simply say that is crazy, no way. But the recent defection of Emmanual Mudiay clearly shows that players of that high caliber can get big deals over seas for one season (China). Euro teams, as has been pointed out here by @JayHawkFanToo may not be much into raw, development projects on one year deals. That seems proven by Mudiay choosing one year in China at $1 million +. But if Svi doesn’t play here, and becomes a bit disillusioned, there are worse things than signing a three year Euro deal – and if he’s of this high talent range that everyone says, that is plausible.
If he isn’t of that high talent range, he might stick around even if he doesn’t play.
It’s just a bigger risk than your normal dude – my concern has simply been that 1) Self does play Svi either on merit or to placate him so he won’t transfer, and 2) that Svi leaves, and 3) that the playing of Svi leads to the transfer of another player or two (Greene, CF, etc).
If Svi is a stud, earns his minutes, and stays a couple of seasons, perfect.
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@HighEliteMajor do you think getting a college education would be of any importance to his parents or Svi?
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@Crimsonorblue22 Absolutely. It would be very important to me as a parent. But if my kid is a high level talent, my first goal would be the best path to an NBA career. The education (or finishing it) can come any time. Only one shot for the career (and coming to KU is probably the best path for that for Svi).
That said, if my kid could make millions in the NBA, and did make those millions, the college education part would mean nothing to me. The education is a means to an end, a hoop to jump through, so you can make money, and support a family. Making big NBA money over an NBA career of 10 years, say just $1 million a season, $10 million, would work out nicely to a 30 year career at $300,000+ per year.
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@HighEliteMajor I believe that 9-10 players will average 10 minutes at least to start the season. It keeps all of them happy until after the first of the year and then there is a smaller possibility anyone transfers. Then he can justify the reduction of pt if needed using individual stats. During cup cake games our 8th -10th guys will get extended play and take away from those that are not lotto picks. Self will have to keep them filling out a stat line to keep the talent train going.
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@HighEliteMajor so, I think you are saying no??? I thought a year or 2 of college would appeal to them more than say, playing in china.
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@bskeet Maybe people have different ideas of what a leader is. To me, he IS a leader when he’s on the court. He plays hard, plays smart, puts up points - I’m confident when he’s in the game.
I think some people mistake being loud or outspoken as exhibiting leadership. Sometimes that’s true, but you can lead by example as well as by expression.
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I know it is fashionable to beat on Morningstar, but in this particular instance, it is not the case. On Brady’s senior year EJ was only a sophomore and did not play much (13.7 MPG) at either guard position. The starting guards were Tyshawn (27.1) and Tyrel (28.7 MPG) with Brady (27.6 MPG) playing the third guard/SF. Selby ( 20.4 MPG) and Mario Little (13,7 MPG) also took turns playing guard.
I am not convinced that Morningstar took any minutes from EJ since he played mostly the 3 with Releford (10.4 MPG) also playing the 3… If anyone took minutes from EJ at the two it was probably Tyrel and Mario who played the two, where Tysahwn and Selby played primarily the point. Given that he did not play much, it is obvious that Coach Self though the other players were in a better position to contribute, don’t you think?
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WOW! Hadn’t been to the site this week and JUST WOW. Love it.
Can’t wait for the season to begin so all the guys can show what they have. HCBS will have a hard time trying to figure out who plays and as he has always said, doing good in practice gets them closer to PT.
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Maybe you hadn’t seen this quote from Perry (15 days ago). I agree with your assessment
Quote from Perry Ellis:
##“I haven’t really thought about individual goals. I’m just focused on winning another Big 12 championship,” he said. “Just keep working toward that, keep on thinking game by game, winning.”
Love that he will get the younger guys to understand the importance of the “game by game, winning” mantra.
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I hope you are right about Perry, but I can’t see that happening.
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@JayHawkFanToo Self played Chalmers, Robinson, and Collins together when Rush sat in 08. The three spot is pliable, and is another perimeter position, lacking only in ball handling responsibility. McLemore flexed to a 3 look many times as Releford was a better ball handler in 2012. Further, Reed played the “3” spot too. The 3 just isn’t that much different than the 2 in Self’s offense.
Self could have played TT, EJ, and Reed at the perimeter positions if he felt that those three were the best players. Just like he said earlier this summer that he could play three PG/lead guard types together. None are 3s in the Rush or Oubre sense. Not that big of a deal.
Also, Little never played the 2. I’m not sure what you are referring to.
The real issue is Self’s choice, as you identify. He was comfortable with Brady, his post feeding, his crisp ball rotation, and his good defense against certain types of players. Self makes many more good decisions than bad. But this one was arguably a bad one. EJ’s quality of play did not miraculously change from year 2 to year 3. Neither did Releford’s. Self may have believed that Brady was a better option, but coaches are wrong sometimes. Coaches make strategic errors. Coaches mistakenly assume certain things will lead to better results.
Self is just a coach. So yes, I think Self thought Brady was better. I also think, in this instance, he was wrong. I would take EJ or Releford of 2012 over anything Brady ever offered.
Finally, proof is in the pudding. In the three years that Brady was in our lineup, we never got to the final four. We did so in the year preceding, and the following year. In 2012, both EJ and Releford started. We would have been better in 2011 if EJ and Releford started instead of Reed and Brady. No one would take Reed and Brady of 2011 over EJ and Releford of 2012.
It wasn’t all Brady of course. Further, in 2010, we lost to UNI. Brady didn’t play much that game. But Self played Brady major minutes before that, taking playing time away from others who arguably could have helped. We were stuck with a very tight rotation, and no options when primary guys misfired, and we didn’t adjust to what was happening on the floor. Personally, I always like developed options. But 2010 is not what I have a gripe with. 2011 is.
I think my main issue in 2011 is, partly, that I saw it coming. Many who posted at KU sports did. Brady showed that vs. athletic guys, and the better players, he struggled on D. There were times he just flat disappeared on offense and was shut down. There were times he was out-athleted. He was a fish out of water vs. VCU. Both he and Reed performed horribly in the exact type of game that you would expect that to happen.
We simply placed too much reliance on Brady. He would have been very good in a 10-13 minute substitute role. Just not a primary role. And that’s really all I’ve ever said. He was miscast as a big minutes starter.
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@RockChalkinTexas I would much rather Ellis have said “I’m focused on winning a national championship” there instead of a Big 12 title. Big 12 title means nothing.
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@HighEliteMajor I know you have stated this position in the past but I am one who is proud of that accomplishment by the whole program and think it is something to be very proud of. And yes I have tshirts that I bought to commemorate them.
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I agree completely in regards to EJ & Brady PT that year…just thought we needed to christen the new site w a little BStar/EJ talk!
We can stop now…forever…never to be spoken of, again.
RIP BStar/EJ conversation
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@Statmachine Whoever has the “insider” access on ESPN, there is an article by Jay Bilas that should be added (cut & paste?) here.
##Kansas will be even better in 2014-15. The last time Kansas failed to win the Big 12 title, man was just climbing out of the primordial ooze. Before every season we naively ask: “Will this be the year that someone knocks Kansas off its lofty perch?”
The Jayhawks are coming off a 25-10 season in which they won the Big 12 with a 14-4 conference record and entered the NCAA tournament as a No. 2 seed. Coach Bill Self lost two players, Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid, to the NBA draft, along with his starting point guard, Naadir Tharpe. And, without the late-season injuries to Embiid, one could argue that Kansas’ postseason results would have been much better.
But the cupboard is hardly bare. It is fully stocked with young talent, and Kansas will be the favorite to win the Big 12 yet again and have a legitimate chance to be even better.
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@RockChalkinTexas Your wish is my command, from ESPN, entitled “Kansas basketball will be even better in 2014-15”, by Jay Bilas –
The last time Kansas failed to win the Big 12 title, man was just climbing out of the primordial ooze. Before every season we naively ask: “Will this be the year that someone knocks Kansas off its lofty perch?”
The Jayhawks are coming off a 25-10 season in which they won the Big 12 with a 14-4 conference record and entered the NCAA tournament as a No. 2 seed. Coach Bill Self lost two players, Andrew Wiggins and Joel Embiid, to the NBA draft, along with his starting point guard, Naadir Tharpe. And, without the late-season injuries to Embiid, one could argue that Kansas’ postseason results would have been much better.
But the cupboard is hardly bare. It is fully stocked with young talent, and Kansas will be the favorite to win the Big 12 yet again and have a legitimate chance to be even better this season than it was last season.
How can Kansas lose two lottery picks and be even better? After all, as good as Kansas’ incoming freshmen are, they aren’t locks to be lottery picks next season. The answer is improved perimeter defense and a different mindset. Kansas will not have players with better skill sets, but they can have a better collective mindset.
Last season, which was very good but not historically great by Kansas standards, the Jayhawks were fourth in the Big 12 in field goal percentage defense, allowing opponents to shoot 42 percent from the floor. Kansas struggled with defending the 3-point line all season, allowing opponents to shoot 36 percent, good for 10th in the Big 12. The team had a negative turnover margin (minus-1.9, 10th in the Big 12) and was sixth in the league in 3-point accuracy. After losing its leading scorer, free throw shooter and best perimeter defender in Wiggins, its rim protector and rebounder in Embiid, and its top assist man in Tharpe (5.0 assists per game, third in the Big 12), Kansas certainly appears – on the surface, at least – vulnerable.
Forget it.
Unless Self leaves or Kansas has a rash of injuries, this team has the pieces to be better than last season. Returning are top talents like big man Perry Ellis and wing Wayne Selden, along with point guard Frank Mason. Role players Jamari Traylor, Brannen Greene and Conner Frankamp are back, and Self has assembled an outstanding recruiting class of Kelly Oubre, Cliff Alexander, Devonte Graham and Sviatoslav Mykhailiuk. (We need to find this guy a nickname – quick.)
Kansas returns one of the nation’s most productive big men in Perry Ellis.Ellis was among the top scorers and rebounders in the Big 12 last season and is capable of producing big performances. He was excellent at the Nike LeBron James Skills Academy this summer and should be among the best and most productive big men in the country this season. Selden averaged 9.7 points per game last season, hit 42 3-pointers (at a 32.8 percent clip) and showed flashes of brilliance playing alongside Wiggins.
Mason is a strong, sturdy point guard who did a solid job when spelling Tharpe. He had a 2-to-1 assist-to-turnover ratio and can defend. Frankamp and Greene, both very young and inexperienced last season, gave Self some situational perimeter shooting but gave up things on defense. Both should be much better this season after a year of experience. Traylor is efficient and productive in limited minutes and capable of more as an upperclassman.
Oubre is a special talent. The lefty is athletic, skilled and very confident. He can shoot and get to the rim and can be another productive freshman under Self. Alexander is a big, wide and strong post player who is very productive on the glass and scoring around the goal. After some time with Self and learning angles in the post, Alexander will be a load. The key to the team may wind up being Graham, a true point guard who has speed and quickness. He can penetrate, change speeds and defend on the ball. Mykhailiuk is an experienced European player who can stretch the floor.
Kansas will be motivated to improve upon last season’s 25-10 record and early NCAA tournament exit. With the horses Self has recruited added into a stable of solid veterans, this team can and will be better. It’ll be theoretically possible, but not at all likely, for Iowa State or Oklahoma to knock off the Jayhawks and send them to second place in the Big 12. Rock Chalk it up.
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##THANKS.
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@nuleafjhawk I want that and the Olympic gold next summer! 2 records no one else will have!
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@Statmachine I think you meant the University Game. Olympics is 2016 in Brazil. But I get what you meant, and it’d be great if KU wins the tournament as Team USA.
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@Wishawk Yes I meant the University games but you still medal in them as far as I know lol.
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I think KU’s season is directly tied to Perry Ellis’ role on the team. If Perry Ellis is the third or fourth best player on this team, they could have a very deep run into the NCAA tournament. If Perry Ellis is the best or second best player on this team, I don’t think they can make a deep run.
I have determined that the best two players on an NCAA champion need to have NBA futures. They don’t have to have futures as NBA stars, but they have to have futures in the league. I know a lot of people on here have toyed with whether or not Ellis has an NBA future. I am of the opinion that he won’t be an NBA player, but as a collegiate player, he is bound for a very strong career, potentially even an all time level when it comes to career stats at KU (1500 points, 800 rebounds are within reach for Perry).
I think KU needs big seasons from it’s three NBA guys (Selden, Oubre, Alexander). If it gets that type of production, it will be a fun year. If not, there just won’t be enough firepower.
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This just in http://www.straighthoops.com/whos_your_five.html KU is in their top 5 starting 5. I am not sure if we ever had 4 projected 1st round pics in a draft before. Having Selden and Ellis primed for a breakout season and 2 supposed OAD’s all of which can ball some with lower ceilings some higher but all playing at possibly the same level at the same time this could be awesome! As long as our OAD’s pan out I think we are golden! Does anyone have any input on weather Alexander is even close to the same level of intensity or as talented as Julius Randal?
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Interesting. It seems like Mudiay, family denials notwithstanding, would not have qualified to play at SMU in the upcoming season, according to Gary Parrish of CBS Sporst, so China (and Russia) were the only available destinations. BTW, Tysahwn is also looking to play in China next season.
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@JayHawkFanToo I think that is old news?? I read a couple of days ago he was ncaa cleared, but because of his family’s need, he was still going to china. Anyone else hear that?
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Here’s an article
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@justanotherfan said:> If Perry Ellis is the third or fourth best player on this team, they could have a very deep run into the NCAA tournament. If Perry Ellis is the best or second best player on this team, I don’t think they can make a deep run.
I like your thought-- and I would offer a twist. If Perry Ellis is as good as the other top three players and they are for the most part indistinguishable from each other – we will have a great year.
That is- If Ellis, Alexander, Selden and Traylor all average between 10-14 points a game, we’ll have the balance that we need from the core. From the guards, we need Mason and Frankamp averaging around 15 pts between them (assuming they split the PG).
We need the bench to contribute about 8-10 points a game (Greene, Oubre, Lucas, Mick and Myck)
That balanced offensive combination would be adequate to make a run at the NC… IF the shooting defense percent comes back to where it was the last few years.
